On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M >>>> >>> > >
That was interesting. Data has consciousness or doesn't. It's like being pregnant. > > > > >> >> There are several alternatives to our biochemistry, of course [ >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry ], even >> involving silicon*. (This is about the 20th time I have posted this.) >> >> But I claim that no zillion-processor Intel Core computer (that >> ultimately runs programs compiled to Intel machine code) can be conscious. >> I also claim God does not exist. >> >> It is this context that [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room ] >> is correct. >> > >> "The Chinese room argument holds that an executing program cannot [have] >> consciousness, regardless of how intelligently or human-like the program >> may make the computer behave." >> >> > The Chinese Room Argument was thoroughly debunked by over a dozen > critiquers before it was published. It has numerous flaws, none of which > were addressed between the time he received the critiques and when Searle > published. > > A few examples: > > - It confuses the "processor" for the system as a whole. This would > be like confusing the laws of physics for the human brain. The laws of > physics is the substrate by which the brain states are processed and > updated, but you would not ascribe the consciousness to the laws of > physics. > - It assumes there is only one mind in the room, the human operator. > But this quickly falls upon closer inspection, if you interview the > "chinese speaking mind" you find that the opinions of this other mind are > not the opinions of the english speaking human operator. > > > >> * Silicon biochemistry >> See also: Organosilicon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> >> Structure of silane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silane>, analog of >> methane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> >> Structure of the silicone polydimethylsiloxane >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane> (PDMS) >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> >> Marine diatoms <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatoms>—carbon-based >> organisms that extract silicon from sea water, in the form of its oxide >> (silica) and incorporate it into their cell walls >> >> The silicon atom has been much discussed as the basis for an alternative >> biochemical system, because silicon has many chemical properties >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_property> similar to those of >> carbon and is in the same group of the periodic table >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(periodic_table)>, the carbon group >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_group>. Like carbon, silicon can >> create molecules that are sufficiently large to carry biological >> information.[10] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >> >> However, silicon has several drawbacks as an alternative to carbon. >> Silicon, unlike carbon, lacks the ability to form chemical bonds with >> diverse types of atoms as is necessary for the chemical versatility >> required for metabolism, and yet this precise inability is what makes >> silicon less susceptible to bond with all sorts of impurities from which >> carbon, in comparison, is not shielded. Elements creating organic >> functional groups with carbon include hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, >> phosphorus, sulfur, and metals such as iron, magnesium, and zinc. Silicon, >> on the other hand, interacts with very few other types of atoms.[10] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >> Moreover, >> where it does interact with other atoms, silicon creates molecules that >> have been described as "monotonous compared with the combinatorial universe >> of organic macromolecules".[10] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> >> This >> is because silicon atoms are much bigger, having a larger mass >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass> and atomic radius >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_radius>, and so have difficulty >> forming double bonds (the double-bonded carbon is part of the carbonyl >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl> group, a fundamental motif of >> carbon-based bio-organic chemistry). >> >> Silanes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silanes>, which are chemical >> compounds <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>of hydrogen >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen> and silicon that are analogous >> to the alkane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkane> hydrocarbons >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon>, are highly reactive with >> water <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)>, and long-chain >> silanes spontaneously decompose. Molecules incorporating polymers >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer> of alternating silicon and oxygen >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen> atoms instead of direct bonds >> between silicon, known collectively as silicones >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone>, are much more stable. It has >> been suggested that silicone-based chemicals would be more stable than >> equivalent hydrocarbons in a sulfuric-acid-rich environment, as is found in >> some extraterrestrial locations.[11] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-world-building-11> >> >> Of the varieties of molecules identified in the interstellar medium >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium> as of 1998, 84 are >> based on carbon, while only 8 are based on silicon.[12] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-12> >> Moreover, >> of those 8 compounds, 4 also include carbon within them. The cosmic >> abundance >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements> of >> carbon to silicon is roughly 10 to 1. This may suggest a greater variety of >> complex carbon compounds throughout the cosmos, providing less of a >> foundation on which to build silicon-based biologies, at least under the >> conditions prevalent on the surface of planets. Also, even though Earth >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth> and other terrestrial planets >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_planet> are exceptionally >> silicon-rich and carbon-poor (the relative abundance of silicon to carbon >> in Earth's crust is roughly 925:1), terrestrial life is carbon-based. The >> fact that carbon is used instead of silicon may be evidence that silicon is >> poorly suited for biochemistry on Earth-like planets. Reasons for which may >> be that silicon is less versatile than carbon in forming compounds, that >> the compounds formed by silicon are unstable, and that it blocks the flow >> of heat.[13] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-BC-13> >> >> Even so, biogenic silica <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_silica> is >> used by some Earth life, such as the silicate >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicate> skeletal structure of diatoms >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom>. According to the clay hypothesis >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Clay_hypothesis> of A. G. >> Cairns-Smith <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith>, >> silicate minerals in water played a crucial role in abiogenesis >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis>: they replicated their >> crystal structures, interacted with carbon compounds, and were the >> precursors of carbon-based life.[14] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-14> >> [15] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-15> >> >> Although not observed in nature, carbon–silicon bonds have been added to >> biochemistry by using directed evolution (artificial selection). A heme >> containing cytochrome *c* protein from *Rhodothermus marinus* has been >> engineered using directed evolution to catalyze the formation of new >> carbon–silicon bonds between hydrosilanes and diazo compounds.[16] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-16> >> >> Silicon compounds may possibly be biologically useful under temperatures >> or pressures different from the surface of a terrestrial planet, either in >> conjunction with or in a role less directly analogous to carbon. >> Polysilanols, the silicon compounds corresponding to sugars >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar>, are soluble in liquid nitrogen, >> suggesting that they could play a role in very-low-temperature biochemistry. >> [17] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-17> >> [18] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-18> >> >> In cinematic and literary science fiction, at a moment when man-made >> machines cross from nonliving to living, it is often posited,[*by whom? >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions>* >> ] this new form would be the first example of non-carbon-based life. >> Since the advent of the microprocessor >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor> in the late 1960s, these >> machines are often classed as computers >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer> (or computer-guided robots >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot>) and filed under "silicon-based >> life", even though the silicon backing matrix of these processors is not >> nearly as fundamental to their operation as carbon is for "wet life". >> >> > Do you think there is something about the carbon atoms vs silicon atoms > that is important to feeling? Can "carbon" atoms alone be happy or sad? > Can a carbon atom alone be alive? > > I think carbon was selected because it can hold bonds with up to 4 other > atoms, making it a useful atomic glue for large structures. Things like > life and consciousness do not exist at the atomic level, they are large > scale processes that emerge from many complex interactions. We know that a > computer can replicate the processes and behaviors of any interaction, so > long as it is finite. This is evidence that a computer could fool us into > thinking it is conscious, and that we could implement hybrid brains with > biological and synthetic neurons. What then of the qualia of such > functionally indistinguishable minds? > > Jason > All examples of consciousness we have exist in living objects. (Us, for example.) Can something be a conscious object but not a living object? @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b7b6d0ec-ce40-4c52-b0c7-892bb51d59e9%40googlegroups.com.
