On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 7:51:45 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/18/2019 12:19 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5,
John Clark wrote:
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift
<[email protected]> wrote:
/> Information processing absent
actual first-class entities of
*qualia* (or experiences) can only produce
zombies. One needs information processing
operating in a material substrate where
those entities are available to be
combined and manipulated./
//So something can behave intelligently but if
it is lacking "f/irst-class entities of
*qualia*/" it can only be a intelligent
zombie. But "/first-class qualia/" sounds
like consciousness to me, so you're basically
saying only conscious things can be conscious.
A tautology has the virtue of always being
true but it involves a unnecessary
non-required pointless repetition and
reiteration of words where you end up at the
exact same place you started with. And that is
typical of all consciousness theories.
John K Clark
To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of
consciousness) cannot be reduced to information
processing.
That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not
even clear what "reduced" means in that context.
(That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia
could be reduced to information processing, then
they would derivative from information, or
"second-class".)
Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a
certain environment. Same with information
processing. In general it's streams of bits being
processed being changed according to some
algorithm. But it's qualia if the streams are in
some entity whose environment and actions give
meaning to the information, like "I've got a
headache and I'm going to lie down."
Brent
Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information
processing* the unsupported assertion?
No. It's very well supported. Interfere with
information processing by drugs or electrical stimulus
of the brain and qualia are changed or eliminated.
Brent
*Information processing (IP) is necessary for
consciousness*, but IP has to occur in a substrate that
produces qualia. *Stop the IP and you stop consciousness.*
But /the same IP/ *in a different substrate* could be
consciousnessless.
The above substate is the material of the brain: neurons,
neurochemistry, glia, ...
Mere supposition. It's just the complement of the claim that
machines can never really think. A pathetic hubris.
A simulation of gravity running in a smartphone does not
produce gravity.
It does in the simulated world.
Brent
People talk of telepathy and precognition as delusional -
broadly speaking, it is. But the "IP delusion" (that
consciousness is substate-independent IP) is up there.
@philipthrift
--
The *simulation-reality* idea - that a simulated brain is the
same as a naturally-evolved/material or synthetic/material brain
- is worse even than the*telepathy* idea (which I don't think
exists in any significant way anyway).
The first is really much worse than the second, so the first
cannot throw stones (even simulated ones).
You keeps saying it's a terrible idea...but you never given any
argument to support that. Simply repeating something isn't
convincing.
Brent
This is exactly like those who say everything is consciousness, and
telepathy is real, etc.
No, it is not. That consciousness depends on function of the brain is a
well supported empirical observation. That telepathy doesn't exist is a
well tested and failed proposition.
No I can't *prove *we aren't simulations, or that a simulation running
in a big computer made of Intel Cores can't be conscious.
Nor can you give a reply to Chalmer's fading consciousness problem.
All those things: *We are nothing but consciousness. We are
simulations. A program running in a computer composed of a zillion
Intel Core processors can be conscious.*
Now you're just throwing stuff in the air. You forgot *Donald Trump is
rich. Trickle down economics.*
Are are just plain /woo woo/.
One more repetition.
Brent
People can believe any woo they want, of course.
@philipthrift
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