On 5/18/2019 12:19 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John
Clark wrote:
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift
<[email protected]> wrote:
/> Information processing absent
actual first-class entities of *qualia* (or
experiences) can only produce zombies. One
needs information processing operating in
a material substrate where those entities are
available to be combined and manipulated./
//So something can behave intelligently but if it
is lacking "f/irst-class entities of *qualia*/" it
can only be a intelligent zombie. But "/first-class
qualia/" sounds like consciousness to me, so you're
basically saying only conscious things can be
conscious. A tautology has the virtue of always
being true but it involves a unnecessary
non-required pointless repetition and reiteration
of words where you end up at the exact same place
you started with. And that is typical of all
consciousness theories.
John K Clark
To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of
consciousness) cannot be reduced to information
processing.
That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not even
clear what "reduced" means in that context.
(That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia could
be reduced to information processing, then they would
derivative from information, or "second-class".)
Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a
certain environment. Same with information processing.
In general it's streams of bits being processed being
changed according to some algorithm. But it's qualia if
the streams are in some entity whose environment and
actions give meaning to the information, like "I've got
a headache and I'm going to lie down."
Brent
Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information processing* the
unsupported assertion?
No. It's very well supported. Interfere with information
processing by drugs or electrical stimulus of the brain and
qualia are changed or eliminated.
Brent
*Information processing (IP) is necessary for consciousness*, but
IP has to occur in a substrate that produces qualia. *Stop the IP
and you stop consciousness.* But /the same IP/ *in a different
substrate* could be consciousnessless.
The above substate is the material of the brain: neurons,
neurochemistry, glia, ...
Mere supposition. It's just the complement of the claim that
machines can never really think. A pathetic hubris.
A simulation of gravity running in a smartphone does not produce
gravity.
It does in the simulated world.
Brent
People talk of telepathy and precognition as delusional - broadly
speaking, it is. But the "IP delusion" (that consciousness is
substate-independent IP) is up there.
@philipthrift
--
The *simulation-reality* idea - that a simulated brain is the same as
a naturally-evolved/material or synthetic/material brain - is worse
even than the*telepathy* idea (which I don't think exists in any
significant way anyway).
The first is really much worse than the second, so the first cannot
throw stones (even simulated ones).
You keeps saying it's a terrible idea...but you never given any argument
to support that. Simply repeating something isn't convincing.
Brent
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