Phil, thanks for these points.
On the slow supercharging thing, I feel like I've put myself in Tesla's
hands, and if I go against them in any way, then I would be at risk of
losing the free supercharging, so I am just living with it.
With that said, I took some notes (pictures of my dashboard) of my
supercharging session 'tonight.
started a supercharging session at 44%: 62 kW
76%: 32kW
89%: 18 kW
If I combine this with the small size of my battery (~70 kWh when new)
then it is arduous to try and road trip. I hate to say it but given the
late entry of other manufacturers into this competition with their first
efforts (Audi e-tron, etc.) it's hard for a used-car-buyer mentality
like mine to justify getting out of the Tesla that quickly. I'm still
thinking maybe to buy a ~90 kWh upgrade, until such vehicles as the
Equinox come along, and maybe have been in the ecosystem for a year or
two (or maybe splurge and take advantage of the tax credit). That may
sound frivolous, but another complicating factor for me is that I know I
will lose a lot of money going through conventional auto dealers At
least with Tesla I know up-front what the financial damage will be.
Josh
On 5/18/2023 8:23 AM, (-Phil-) wrote:
I have over 3000 salvage and unsupported Teslas connected to my
server, Most of them are older Model S. I very rarely see an owner
need to replace a battery pack. The worst of the repairs needed on
older Model S is the drive unit. There was a known engineering flaw
on units made before about 2015. Followed by occasional contactor
failure. By 2015 the Model S was very reliable, Tesla had fixed
almost all of the problems from 2012-2014.
Degradation of the battery pack is a pretty slow stable thing, not a
phenomenon where you wake up one day and you need a new battery.
Tesla recently revealed the average battery capacity (and range)
degradation figures. According to what I saw, the average battery
capacity lost after 200k miles is 12%. This jives almost perfectly
with the data I have seen on the ~3000 cars connected to my server.
Article:
https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/
Now the slow supercharging is most definitely a thing. As I said in
my previous email, I routinely downgrade owners to software before the
2019.16.x "hobble". Almost all of my clients elect to keep older
software when I inform them that moving to newer will only take away
capacity and charging speed and result in a more laggy touchscreen
interface.
On cars 2015 and newer, they are very reliable. Most maintenance
consists of Windshield Washer fluid, Occasionally a set of tires, and
a new 12v battery every 4-6 years. I also recommend drive unit fluid
changes every 50k miles. Most owners might have to put on a set of
brake pads somewhere North of 100k.
There is a flaw in the early Model S ball joints and fore links where
they were incorrectly hardened which can cause them to fail suddenly.
I've had it happen on 3 of my cars, and heard from countless others
about this. It's my biggest complaint about the Model S, and I think
there should have been a recall over it. (There was in China for the
same cars).
Other than that just some minor and relatively inexpensive niggles for
older cars. The door handles, the trunk latch and cinching motor,
power window regulators, Falcon wing doors and door latches on the
Model X. (Don't buy a Model X, It's the most problematic Tesla!)
The Model 3 and Y are really amazing. They do not seem to have any
common failures.
On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 7:42 AM Josh Landess via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
HI -
I recently started using thunderbird for email and can't seem to
understand how to insert my comments inline with others' in a way
that
is readily understood, but to address a few points from the below:
- Pros/cons of Tesla and separately its CEO are rich topics to
me. Glad
to see that you are able to look at both.
- the primary point of this thread for me is in my view worth getting
back to for a moment. It is to look at this question (as from the
subject heading) of Tesla wanting to buy out free supercharging.
I want
to emphasize that they don't just want to buy it out, but they
provide
another incentive to get out of the car, which is that the older
vehicles equipped with the full-blown free transferable
life-of-vehicle
supercharging arguably are hobbled enough (and with some strong
question
around Tesla will allow us to pay to improve them) that it is not
worth
it to many of us to stay in the vehicle. I see very few news or
analysis articles which look at the phenomenon of extraordinarily
slow
supercharging of old Teslas that have free supercharging, and so one
thing I don't know is whether this is rare, and more detail as to
what
the rates of charging are of many other vehicle owners.
- related to this issue of Tesla's approach to free supercharging:
* I took a look at Tesla's most recent annual. They do explicitly
talk
about the free supercharging, but I am not knowledgeable enough about
this area of finance to understand how they are looking at it on
their
books:
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000095017023001409/tsla-20221231.htm
I've been wondering about this because in theory, arguably, we're
talking about an obligation that they've taken on in perpetuity, or
until all the vehicles are removed from circulation.
* The question is also begged to discuss post-warranty upkeep and
maintenance. If it costs $20k every 5 or 10 years to replace
batteries
and other what-not, then this helps us understand the long-term
value of
the vehicle. On the other hand, for how long would Tesla sell
replacement batteries? Maybe they will not want to make the 18650s
forever. If they offer eventually modifications to allow for use of
2170 or 4860 batteries, then would they demand that drivers give
up the
free supercharging in return?
* The new Model S and X appear to be in the range of just below to
above
$100k. So, some drivers might want to pay for battery and other
replacement parts for many decades, seeing the vehicle they're
maintaining as nearly as good as a $100k vehicle, and the free
supercharging in some ways making it better.
On 5/17/2023 2:05 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> On 17 May 2023 at 6:52, Josh Landess via EV wrote:
>
>>> "...I don't know that you have noticed, but there is quite a
bit of
>>> Tesla negativism" here on EVDL. I fail to understand it. ..."
>>>
> On 5/17/2023 2:05 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say that there's "quite a bit of Tesla negativism"
here. Maybe it
> seems that way to the folks who are devoted Tesla fans and
loyalists.
>
> There are a few of us who have reservations about Tesla's cars,
Tesla,
> and/or its CEO. There are also a few who seem to have
unswerving loyalty to
> the cars, the company, and the CEO. I think that the two sides
probably
> just about balance out.
>
>> As for myself, I have mixed views. They do not balance out to
exactly
>> "equal", but I try to give credit ... I guess I have a summary
view on
>> certain things.
> I haven't taken a survey and I don't plan to, but my impression
is that most
> people here also fall somewhere in the middle.
>
>> In the particular case of the issue under discussion
(incentives for
>> giving up vehicles equipped with the free supercharging), I do
think
>> there is possibly (but not definitely) an element of sleaze to
Tesla's
>> throttling some packs to charge at such slow rates that the
owner is
>> incentivized to get rid of the vehicle.
> I expect that the diehard Tesla lovers will find a way to
justify just about
> anything that others might call sleaze.
>
> Meanwhile, the Tesla skeptics willl say that it confirms what
they always
> suspected.
>
> Let's face it - questionable or sleazy business practice is par
for the
> libertarian-capitalist course. Nothing is more important than
"shareholder
> value," ya know.
>
> In that way Tesla is pretty much like everybody else.
>
> Maybe it's just me, but that seems kind of disappointing from a
company that
> used to talk up how they were going to save the world from ...
whatever.
>
> Oh, also, "Don't be evil."
>
> So it goes.
>
> Thanks to Tesla for advancing the state of the art in EVs, and
for showing
> other automakers, drivers, and *governments* what's possible.
>
> But NO thanks to Tesla for breaking laws - for example VOC
limits - and
> labor standards. I read that they were also hit with more than 800
> environmental lawsuits in Germany. It's amazing what Tesla get
away with,
> usually with, at most, just a little slap on the wrist.
>
> NO thanks to Tesla for the way they've often treated their
factory workers,
> expecially women and minorities. Lawsuits there too.
>
> And NO thanks to Tesla for control-freaking their cars. As Phil
and Sharkey
> suggest, If they can take away features without asking you, you
don't really
> own your Tesla.
>
> Tesla is far from the only game in town for EVs. USians have
many more
> choices now than 10 years ago, and the selection is even wider
in Europe.
> So I think it's a good thing having a Tesla-preference balance
here on the
> list, and talking about it. That way you're well informed when
you decide
> where you're going to spend your hard earned EV bucks.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
> Fertility is hereditary. If your parents didn't have any
> children, neither will you.
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>
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