Hi Robert, Yes, QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent.
I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get the reply and explanation. I will sync here. Best, Vino. Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道： > Thanks a lot! > > qq.com belongs to Tencent, right? > As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent (Vino > Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing > list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that > problem? > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our > > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use > other > > providers." > > > > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using > > apache > > mailing list. > > > > Best, > > Kurt > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will > > > happen. > > > > > > Best, > > > Kurt > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thank you all for working on this! > > >> > > >> +1 on conducting a survey! > > >> > > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar > > >> example, also mentioning qq.com: > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find > out > > >> why > > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > > >> > > > >> > Best, > > >> > Kurt > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Hi Gordon, > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people > > >> told me > > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I > think > > >> your > > >> > > information gives a good answer! > > >> > > > > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of > `user-zh-subscribe@ > > `. > > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe > > using > > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more > > >> about > > >> > it > > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users > if > > >> they > > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@ > `? > > >> This > > >> > > may > > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. > > >> > > > > >> > > - Network problem. > > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I > told > > >> one > > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything > > >> becomes > > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can > > do > > >> is > > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use > Gmail > > >> in > > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. > > >> > > > > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this > week. > > I > > >> > want > > >> > > to let more people join in the survey. > > >> > > > > >> > > Best, Hequn > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < > > >> > tzuli...@apache.org> > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Hi all, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a > > >> > moderator > > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying > to > > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and > > not > > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do > in > > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in > > >> subscribing > > >> > to > > >> > > > the Apache mailing list. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email > > >> domains, > > >> > for > > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. > This > > >> > would > > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list > > >> since > > >> > > they > > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email > > >> > conversations > > >> > > > from the mailing list either. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Best, > > >> > > > Gordon > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, > but > > >> > people > > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use > > >> mailing > > >> > > > list > > >> > > > > frequently. > > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people > > >> more > > >> > on > > >> > > > > mailing lists? > > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several > > >> times, > > >> > > when > > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use > user-zh > > >> ML. > > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you > help > > >> > answer > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the > > >> question in > > >> > > > group > > >> > > > > again. > > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is > > >> growing > > >> > > too > > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from > 5,000 > > >> to > > >> > > > 10,000 > > >> > > > > in the past months. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > > >> searching. > > >> > We > > >> > > > can > > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching > > >> itself. > > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: > > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > > >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > > >> > information? > > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu > for > > >> most > > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > > >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on > > >> this. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a > > >> better > > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users > need. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Best, > > >> > > > > Jark > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng < > chenghe...@gmail.com > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi, > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and > Jark > > >> for > > >> > > your > > >> > > > > nice > > >> > > > > > thoughts. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the > reason > > >> is > > >> > > that > > >> > > > a > > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a > > >> lot of > > >> > > > > people > > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. > > Even > > >> > > though, > > >> > > > > for > > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in > > the > > >> > > > DingTalk > > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the > group. > > >> For > > >> > > > these > > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming > > >> ruined. In > > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and > Jark, I > > >> > think > > >> > > we > > >> > > > > can > > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, > such > > >> as: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more > > >> > convenient > > >> > > > and > > >> > > > > > fast. > > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing > > list > > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user > > mailing > > >> > list > > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li < > > bowenl...@gmail.com> > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation > > >> team > > >> > has > > >> > > > > done > > >> > > > > > a > > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion > > is > > >> not > > >> > > > about > > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high > > >> growth > > >> > > pain > > >> > > > > > IMHO. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > questions, > > >> but > > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind > > users > > >> to > > >> > > use > > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate > > people > > >> > more > > >> > > > on > > >> > > > > > > mailing lists? > > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast > with > > >> lower > > >> > > > cost > > >> > > > > > than > > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be > the > > >> case > > >> > > > too. > > >> > > > > > The > > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with > it > > >> > > though. > > >> > > > > > When I > > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were > > >> > typically a > > >> > > > log > > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". > Many > > of > > >> > them > > >> > > > > never > > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may > > >> have > > >> > > > changed > > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND > > follow > > >> > good > > >> > > > > > apache > > >> > > > > > > practices. > > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and > > with > > >> > > Flink > > >> > > > > > China > > >> > > > > > > operation team". > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on > > >> > user-zh's > > >> > > > low > > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation > > >> team > > >> > as > > >> > > > part > > >> > > > > > of > > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on > > >> ideas > > >> > and > > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 > are > > >> all > > >> > > > > **devs** > > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be > the > > >> main > > >> > > > > > question > > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation > team** > > >> > voted > > >> > > or > > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them > > the > > >> > > > purpose > > >> > > > > of > > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's > > something > > >> we > > >> > > can > > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China > > >> > operation > > >> > > > team > > >> > > > > > as > > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them > to > > >> join > > >> > > > > related > > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now > > on. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > > >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat > > group > > >> > with > > >> > > > 10k > > >> > > > > > > > members! > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the > > >> > > > Chinese-speaking > > >> > > > > > > world > > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow > > AND > > >> > > follow > > >> > > > > > good > > >> > > > > > > > apache practices. > > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user > > >> support > > >> > via > > >> > > > > Chat > > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move > people > > >> away > > >> > > > from > > >> > > > > > > that, > > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of > Flink > > >> in > > >> > > > China. > > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using > > >> mailing > > >> > > > lists, > > >> > > > > > or > > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > > questions, > > >> but > > >> > > > > people > > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing > > list > > >> > > > > frequently. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > > >> > searching. > > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh > which > > >> > > supports > > >> > > > > > > > searching > > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up > > on > > >> > > Baidu. > > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve > this. > > >> IMO, > > >> > > > Baidu > > >> > > > > is > > >> > > > > > > not > > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > > >> > > > information? > > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding > > help > > >> > when > > >> > > > > they > > >> > > > > > > run > > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Best, > > >> > > > > > > > Robert > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu < > imj...@gmail.com > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the > > DingTalk. > > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > > >> questions, > > >> > but > > >> > > > > > people > > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing > > list > > >> > > > > frequently. > > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, > > >> although > > >> > in > > >> > > > > hours. > > >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using > > >> mailing > > >> > > > list. > > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > > >> > > searching. > > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh > which > > >> > > supports > > >> > > > > > > > searching > > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing > up > > >> on > > >> > > > Baidu. > > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve > this. > > >> IMO, > > >> > > > Baidu > > >> > > > > is > > >> > > > > > > not > > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, > > >> > > > > > > > > Jark > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < > > >> bowenl...@gmail.com> > > >> > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because > > most > > >> > > > questions > > >> > > > > > are > > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to > 10,000 > > >> > people > > >> > > > now. > > >> > > > > > > > Here're > > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and > > >> > updates, > > >> > > > > > > broadcast > > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for > > ask-answer > > >> > > > > questions > > >> > > > > > > and > > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not > > 10,000...) > > >> We > > >> > > > > probably > > >> > > > > > > all > > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really > > >> searchable, > > >> > > > topics > > >> > > > > > lost > > >> > > > > > > > > fast, > > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without > evening > > >> doing > > >> > > any > > >> > > > > > > > homework > > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat > > and > > >> > > haven't > > >> > > > > > > really > > >> > > > > > > > > look > > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the > > >> group > > >> > is > > >> > > > > also > > >> > > > > > > > going > > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still > exists > > >> > > nowadays > > >> > > > > for > > >> > > > > > > its > > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic > > >> > focused, > > >> > > > > etc. > > >> > > > > > > And > > >> > > > > > > > I > > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer > > should > > >> > > happen > > >> > > > in > > >> > > > > > the > > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified > what > > >> that > > >> > > > > DingTalk > > >> > > > > > > > group > > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work > > >> together > > >> > > with > > >> > > > > our > > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh > > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of > > >> just > > >> > let > > >> > > > it > > >> > > > > > > drive > > >> > > > > > > > to > > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect > on > > >> how > > >> > we > > >> > > > > should > > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should > > >> only be > > >> > > > used > > >> > > > > > for > > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, > > >> > > > broadcasting > > >> > > > > > live > > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions > > >> should > > >> > be > > >> > > > > > diverted > > >> > > > > > > > to > > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk > > >> group > > >> > so > > >> > > > > that > > >> > > > > > > they > > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > > >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months > old > > >> and > > >> > I > > >> > > > > wanted > > >> > > > > > > to > > >> > > > > > > > > hear > > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group > (5000 > > >> ?), > > >> > I > > >> > > > > would > > >> > > > > > > have > > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I > > >> also > > >> > > > > > understand > > >> > > > > > > > that > > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the > > last > > >> > > > century. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help > > >> adoption > > >> > > of > > >> > > > > that > > >> > > > > > > > > mailing > > >> > > > > > > > > >> list? > > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list > > >> showing up > > >> > > on > > >> > > > > > Baidu > > >> > > > > > > > when > > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, > does > > it > > >> > > makes > > >> > > > > > sense > > >> > > > > > > to > > >> > > > > > > > > >> have > > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > > >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >
