Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out why apache mails are blocked by qq.com? QQ mails are very popular in Chinese.
Best, Kurt On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Gordon, > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people told me > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think your > information gives a good answer! > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`. > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more about it > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if they > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? This > may > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. > > - Network problem. > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told one > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything becomes > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail in > preference to qq.com, etc. > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I want > to let more people join in the survey. > > Best, Hequn > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai <tzuli...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to > > the Apache mailing list. > > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since > they > > can't complete the subscribe process. > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations > > from the mailing list either. > > > > Best, > > Gordon > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing > > list > > > frequently. > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on > > > mailing lists? > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, > when > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML. > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer > > the > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in > > group > > > again. > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing > too > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 to > > 10,000 > > > in the past months. > > > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. We > > can > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself. > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information? > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this. > > > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. > > > > > > Best, > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for > your > > > nice > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is > that > > a > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of > > > people > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even > though, > > > for > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the > > DingTalk > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For > > these > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > > > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think > we > > > can > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as: > > > > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient > > and > > > > fast. > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > > > > 7. other reasons. > > > > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > > > > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has > > > done > > > > a > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not > > about > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth > pain > > > > IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to > use > > > > > mailing list frequently. > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more > > on > > > > > mailing lists? > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower > > cost > > > > than > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case > > too. > > > > The > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it > though. > > > > When I > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a > > log > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them > > > never > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have > > changed > > > > > now, I'm sure. > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good > > > > apache > > > > > practices. > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with > Flink > > > > China > > > > > operation team". > > > > > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's > > low > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as > > part > > > > of > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all > > > **devs** > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main > > > > question > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted > or > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the > > purpose > > > of > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we > can > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation > > team > > > > as > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join > > > related > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with > > 10k > > > > > > members! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the > > Chinese-speaking > > > > > world > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND > follow > > > > good > > > > > > apache practices. > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via > > > Chat > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away > > from > > > > > that, > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in > > China. > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing > > lists, > > > > or > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > people > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > > > frequently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > supports > > > > > > searching > > > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on > Baidu. > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, > > Baidu > > > is > > > > > not > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > > information? > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when > > > they > > > > > run > > > > > > into problems with a system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk. > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > > people > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > > > frequently. > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in > > > hours. > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing > > list. > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > searching. > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > supports > > > > > > searching > > > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on > > Baidu. > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, > > Baidu > > > is > > > > > not > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most > > questions > > > > are > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people > > now. > > > > > > Here're > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, > > > > > broadcast > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer > > > questions > > > > > and > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We > > > probably > > > > > all > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, > > topics > > > > lost > > > > > > > fast, > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing > any > > > > > > homework > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and > haven't > > > > > really > > > > > > > look > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is > > > also > > > > > > going > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists > nowadays > > > for > > > > > its > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, > > > etc. > > > > > And > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should > happen > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that > > > DingTalk > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together > with > > > our > > > > > > > user-zh > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let > > it > > > > > drive > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we > > > should > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be > > used > > > > for > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, > > broadcasting > > > > live > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be > > > > diverted > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so > > > that > > > > > they > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old and I > > > wanted > > > > > to > > > > > > > hear > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I > > > would > > > > > have > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also > > > > understand > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last > > century. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption > of > > > that > > > > > > > mailing > > > > > > > >> list? > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up > on > > > > Baidu > > > > > > when > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it > makes > > > > sense > > > > > to > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > > >> Robert > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
