Hi all, Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a moderator of the user-zh@ mailing list:
- About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in subscribing to the Apache mailing list. - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email domains, for example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This would block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list since they can't complete the subscribe process. I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email conversations from the mailing list either. Best, Gordon On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > frequently. > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on > mailing lists? > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, when > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML. > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer the > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in group > again. > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing too > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 to 10,000 > in the past months. > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. We can > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself. > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information? > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this. > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. > > Best, > Jark > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your > nice > > thoughts. > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that a > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of > people > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though, > for > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the DingTalk > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For these > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we > can > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as: > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient and > > fast. > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > > 7. other reasons. > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has > done > > a > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain > > IMHO. > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use > > > mailing list frequently. > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on > > > mailing lists? > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost > > than > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too. > > The > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it though. > > When I > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them > never > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed > > > now, I'm sure. > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good > > apache > > > practices. > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink > > China > > > operation team". > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part > > of > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all > **devs** > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main > > question > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose > of > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team > > as > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join > related > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k > > > > members! > > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking > > > world > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow > > good > > > > apache practices. > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via > Chat > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from > > > that, > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China. > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists, > > or > > > > will it hinder adoption? > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > people > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > frequently. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > > > > searching > > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu. > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu > is > > > not > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information? > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when > they > > > run > > > > into problems with a system? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk. > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > people > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list > frequently. > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in > hours. > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list. > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > > > > searching > > > > > itself. > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu. > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu > is > > > not > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions > > are > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now. > > > > Here're > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, > > > broadcast > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer > questions > > > and > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We > probably > > > all > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics > > lost > > > > > fast, > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any > > > > homework > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't > > > really > > > > > look > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is > also > > > > going > > > > > > down because of the problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays > for > > > its > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, > etc. > > > And > > > > I > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in > > the > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that > DingTalk > > > > group > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with > our > > > > > user-zh > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it > > > drive > > > > to > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we > should > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used > > for > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting > > live > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be > > diverted > > > > to > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so > that > > > they > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old and I > wanted > > > to > > > > > hear > > > > > >> how things are going. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I > would > > > have > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also > > understand > > > > that > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > > > > >> May: 62 > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of > that > > > > > mailing > > > > > >> list? > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on > > Baidu > > > > when > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes > > sense > > > to > > > > > >> have > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > >> Robert > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > That's great. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
