Thanks a lot! qq.com belongs to Tencent, right? As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent (Vino Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that problem?
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use other > providers." > > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using > apache > mailing list. > > Best, > Kurt > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will > > happen. > > > > Best, > > Kurt > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Thank you all for working on this! > >> > >> +1 on conducting a survey! > >> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar > >> example, also mentioning qq.com: > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out > >> why > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > Kurt > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Hi Gordon, > >> > > > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people > >> told me > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think > >> your > >> > > information gives a good answer! > >> > > > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@ > `. > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe > using > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more > >> about > >> > it > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if > >> they > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? > >> This > >> > > may > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. > >> > > > >> > > - Network problem. > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told > >> one > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything > >> becomes > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can > do > >> is > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail > >> in > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. > >> > > > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. > I > >> > want > >> > > to let more people join in the survey. > >> > > > >> > > Best, Hequn > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < > >> > tzuli...@apache.org> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Hi all, > >> > > > > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a > >> > moderator > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > >> > > > > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and > not > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in > >> subscribing > >> > to > >> > > > the Apache mailing list. > >> > > > > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email > >> domains, > >> > for > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This > >> > would > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list > >> since > >> > > they > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email > >> > conversations > >> > > > from the mailing list either. > >> > > > > >> > > > Best, > >> > > > Gordon > >> > > > > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > >> > people > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use > >> mailing > >> > > > list > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people > >> more > >> > on > >> > > > > mailing lists? > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several > >> times, > >> > > when > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh > >> ML. > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help > >> > answer > >> > > > the > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the > >> question in > >> > > > group > >> > > > > again. > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is > >> growing > >> > > too > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 > >> to > >> > > > 10,000 > >> > > > > in the past months. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > >> searching. > >> > We > >> > > > can > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching > >> itself. > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > >> > information? > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for > >> most > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on > >> this. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a > >> better > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Best, > >> > > > > Jark > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark > >> for > >> > > your > >> > > > > nice > >> > > > > > thoughts. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason > >> is > >> > > that > >> > > > a > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a > >> lot of > >> > > > > people > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. > Even > >> > > though, > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in > the > >> > > > DingTalk > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. > >> For > >> > > > these > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming > >> ruined. In > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I > >> > think > >> > > we > >> > > > > can > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such > >> as: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more > >> > convenient > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > fast. > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing > list > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user > mailing > >> > list > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li < > bowenl...@gmail.com> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation > >> team > >> > has > >> > > > > done > >> > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion > is > >> not > >> > > > about > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high > >> growth > >> > > pain > >> > > > > > IMHO. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, > >> but > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind > users > >> to > >> > > use > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate > people > >> > more > >> > > > on > >> > > > > > > mailing lists? > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with > >> lower > >> > > > cost > >> > > > > > than > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the > >> case > >> > > > too. > >> > > > > > The > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it > >> > > though. > >> > > > > > When I > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were > >> > typically a > >> > > > log > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many > of > >> > them > >> > > > > never > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may > >> have > >> > > > changed > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND > follow > >> > good > >> > > > > > apache > >> > > > > > > practices. > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and > with > >> > > Flink > >> > > > > > China > >> > > > > > > operation team". > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on > >> > user-zh's > >> > > > low > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation > >> team > >> > as > >> > > > part > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on > >> ideas > >> > and > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are > >> all > >> > > > > **devs** > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the > >> main > >> > > > > > question > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** > >> > voted > >> > > or > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them > the > >> > > > purpose > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's > something > >> we > >> > > can > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China > >> > operation > >> > > > team > >> > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to > >> join > >> > > > > related > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now > on. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >> > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat > group > >> > with > >> > > > 10k > >> > > > > > > > members! > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the > >> > > > Chinese-speaking > >> > > > > > > world > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow > AND > >> > > follow > >> > > > > > good > >> > > > > > > > apache practices. > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user > >> support > >> > via > >> > > > > Chat > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people > >> away > >> > > > from > >> > > > > > > that, > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink > >> in > >> > > > China. > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using > >> mailing > >> > > > lists, > >> > > > > > or > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > questions, > >> but > >> > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing > list > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > >> > searching. > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > >> > > supports > >> > > > > > > > searching > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up > on > >> > > Baidu. > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. > >> IMO, > >> > > > Baidu > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > >> > > > information? > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding > help > >> > when > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > > run > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Best, > >> > > > > > > > Robert > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the > DingTalk. > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >> questions, > >> > but > >> > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing > list > >> > > > > frequently. > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, > >> although > >> > in > >> > > > > hours. > >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using > >> mailing > >> > > > list. > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > >> > > searching. > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which > >> > > supports > >> > > > > > > > searching > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up > >> on > >> > > > Baidu. > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. > >> IMO, > >> > > > Baidu > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, > >> > > > > > > > > Jark > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < > >> bowenl...@gmail.com> > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because > most > >> > > > questions > >> > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 > >> > people > >> > > > now. > >> > > > > > > > Here're > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and > >> > updates, > >> > > > > > > broadcast > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for > ask-answer > >> > > > > questions > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not > 10,000...) > >> We > >> > > > > probably > >> > > > > > > all > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really > >> searchable, > >> > > > topics > >> > > > > > lost > >> > > > > > > > > fast, > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening > >> doing > >> > > any > >> > > > > > > > homework > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat > and > >> > > haven't > >> > > > > > > really > >> > > > > > > > > look > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the > >> group > >> > is > >> > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > going > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists > >> > > nowadays > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > > its > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic > >> > focused, > >> > > > > etc. > >> > > > > > > And > >> > > > > > > > I > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer > should > >> > > happen > >> > > > in > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what > >> that > >> > > > > DingTalk > >> > > > > > > > group > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work > >> together > >> > > with > >> > > > > our > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of > >> just > >> > let > >> > > > it > >> > > > > > > drive > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on > >> how > >> > we > >> > > > > should > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should > >> only be > >> > > > used > >> > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, > >> > > > broadcasting > >> > > > > > live > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions > >> should > >> > be > >> > > > > > diverted > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk > >> group > >> > so > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old > >> and > >> > I > >> > > > > wanted > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > hear > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 > >> ?), > >> > I > >> > > > > would > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I > >> also > >> > > > > > understand > >> > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the > last > >> > > > century. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help > >> adoption > >> > > of > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > mailing > >> > > > > > > > > >> list? > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list > >> showing up > >> > > on > >> > > > > > Baidu > >> > > > > > > > when > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does > it > >> > > makes > >> > > > > > sense > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > >> have > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >
