Thanks Rick
Let me elaborate a bit. First of all the Frers 33 is a Carroll Marine built German Frers designed performance boat that has a decent interior. Of the Carroll built boats the Frers line was the only one I am aware of that had the “cruiser” side of the racing. The rest were pretty much pure race boats .. Tripp, Nelson Marek and I think 1D35. Of these I think the Nelson Marek are the prettiest boats but of course none of those is designed to spend much time aboard. This is the pedigree so the Frers is a racer with cruising amenities .. pretty much like the C&C designs in the 70s were – performance with an interior. Hard to find these days in anything less than 36 feet with modern boats. My previous boats (Niagara 26 and J27) had transom hung rudders with what can best be called a “poop deck” between the rudder and cockpit. This meant that the tiller did not intrude too far into the cockpit in the manner that rudders on posts do with tillers by necessity. Each of these boats also had a traveler mid cockpit toward aft end. The absolute benefit of this arrangement is that it keeps other people out of the helm person area which is very nice when tacking etc … The other two boats I sail and race on regularly are C&C 115 and to lesser extent the C&C 99. Each of these boats also has the mid cockpit traveler located immediately forward of wheel. This arrangement takes no space at all away from others in the boat as the large destroyer wheel has already effectively done this. By contrast the bridge deck takes away the forward 12 – 15 inches of the cockpit and is definitely in the way of guests and sailors in the cockpit. It also makes for a steeper set of stairs/ladder into the boat. Given a choice I would always opt for mid cockpit traveler. Oh well. Something to get used to. Regarding travelers. On the Niagara, the J and the C&C115 the boats are fractional rigs with large mainsails. In each case it is extremely important to play the traveler in puffs. Esp when racing or even when reaching the traveler should rarely be cleated. This is not for a 1/10 of a knot but more like ½ a knot or more. On the 115 in particular the traveler is extremely important and on windy days we may even have one person on traveler, one on sheet and have those two working with driver to keep the boat flat and fast. Is very useful to have the main trimmer(s) beside the helmsman. On the 99 2 persons are never needed on sheet and traveler but again the traveler should not be locked in place on gusty days and in a pinch the helm can lower the traveler if needed from helm position. Sorry for the long email. Am trying to determine how best to sail this boat effectively as it is very different from what I am used to with a masthead rig etc … Main controls and jib controls differ as well (backstay, check stays, etc…). We do have a nice auto helm (Raymarine 6002) and can use that as described by many, also the primaries are on aft end of winch pad (bad for racing but good for short handed) and are electric as well so the helm can control jib and if traveler is centered can easily single hand. (second set of primaries being installed in proper location next week as well). I have to get used to the boat a bit more to determine how much power is required to be dumped from main in puffs in relation to genoa (genoa seems to be a big driver of this design) and therefore if traveler is as important for everyday sailing as on the boats I am used to etc … Interesting conversation. Think we need to sail the boat without passengers a bit more (deliveries do not count as sailing) and also race it fully crewed. A fun challenge Mike Persistence From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 11:54 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List CNC 115 Shorthanded Sailers Mike, I would buy into Josh's rule of thumb for a light air boat: that it should go upwind at about half of the apparent wind speed. But to me, light air is less than 6 knots or so true. So we're talking about getting boat speeds of 3 or 4 knots upwind in apparent winds of up to 8 or 9. Or ghosting along on a reach in winds of 1 or 2. If I was looking for a boat to race in those conditions it would be a Wavelength, a Lindenburg 26, or a San Juan 21. Definitely not a cruising boat among them. I've sailed a number of boats with tillers and aft travelers. My 25 has that arrangement. It is great for racing with small crew or for single handing. But when you have guests aboard, or want to enjoy a relaxing sail, some conversation, and a couple of sundowners that arrangement is not so desirable. The mid cockpit traveler is a pain in the...well, the knee...and the tiller takes up cockpit space better used for lounging unless it can be lifted and tied to a backstay. If you are cruising instead of racing, you will seldom be trying for the last tenth of a knot of speed or the last degree or two of pointing. Your destination isn't an upwind mark, its a marina or quiet anchorage somewhere ahead. You will be on a reach far more often than a beat - and probably on a close reach in all but a very few occasions when going upwind. And if you are like me, your 155 will be rolled in to 140 or 125 - maybe even 110 at times - for comfort and ease of tacking/trimming. As an example, my girlfriend and I took a trip to a nearby town for dinner last weekend. About 27Nm one way or about 6 hours sail. On the way there we were on port tack all the way, and the only trimming was when we turned left to go 9 miles up the Pungo River when we changed from a broad reach to a close reach. Imzadi will go to weather at 28 or 29 apparent with a little coaxing and close attention. But, as Dwight pointed out, she is more stable, more comfortable, and more forgiving when footed off to 32 or so. And she feels faster even if the VMG to windward isn't quite as high. While ghosting along at 1 or 2 knots can be a real peaceful pleasure, if you have miles to go before you sleep, or friends waiting to share sundowners, or want to get into the anchorage before dark - or before all the good spots are taken - you will probably be motoring or motor sailing instead of ghosting along. Such is the norm when cruising. You commented that you can't imagine why anyone would have a forward traveler. Actually, that is my preference. A traveler by the pedestal is great for short handed racing. But it in invariably a pain in the knee for crew and limits access to the good seats for guests. Trimming is an unnecessary distraction for the helmsman if fully crewed. And you lose valuable entertaining space when cruising. A cabin top traveler has relatively limited range of travel and the inherent problems of mid boom sheeting. If you have a dodger (and what cruiser does not?) visibility of the traveler is limited from aft in the cockpit. And if you have a guest or your Admiral lounging in the cockpit, you will invariably irritate her/them by whacking her in the head when you try to trim from the helm. Imzadi has the primary winches just forward of the helm, in easy reach. If I ever get around to installing self-tailers, trimming will be quick and easy - and less acrobatic. My bridge deck traveler is out of the way of seating (though it does make sleeping in the cockpit more difficult), and I had Guido at Garhauer make custom brackets for the turning blocks and cam cleats so I can trim from behind the wheel. (He did them at no charge. Don't you just love stuff from Garhauer?) When I make my first tack and have the headsail trimmed, I ease the windward line to let the traveler car down as much as it was below center on the previous tack, without tightening the leeward line. Then lock it in and pretty much forget it. The traveler then becomes self tacking, with sheet and vang to control shape and the car to control angle of attack. When I raced with regular crew, the location of the main trimmer only 4 or 5 feet ahead of me was no problem for communication. Heck, he was near 80 and pretty deaf, and I was in the process of losing my hearing too. Plus the fact that he was out of the way of the guys I had in the cockpit to trim and tail the big headsail. So I'm pretty happy with my bridge deck traveler. But then I' essentially a cruiser who spends 80% of my time single handing. Rick Brass Sent from my iPad On Aug 26, 2014, at 8:26, "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: Josh What is the cockpit layout of the 37+ in terms of winch placement, traveler, main controls, etc? I am curious because having just gone from a Tiller boat with mid cockpit traveler (toward aft of cockpit) and traveler and backstay and sheet all at traveler with jib sheets/primaries at forward end of cockpit I am finding the cruising boat layouts very awkward. With the tiller near the traveler the driver could also do main trim when sailing short handed and at very least has the main trimmer immediately beside for communication. Even on the C&C 99 and 115 the traveler is just forward of wheel which gives driver some access to main and very good communication with main trimmer. On our new cruising boat the traveler is on a bridge deck at companion way which places the main trimmer forward of the jib trimmer and makes short handed sailing and controlling the main much more awkward. I still cannot fathom why anyone would intentionally have a traveler forward So when sailing single handed with a wheel and a forward traveler how on earth can you tack a boat single handed? With two people I could see it, sort of. With one it seems that it would take 5 minutes to get the boat tacked and trimmed. Mike Frers 33 Persistence From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:17 AM To: drobert...@comcast.net; C&C List Subject: Re: Stus-List CNC 115 Shorthanded Sailers I do not have particular expierience with "light air" boats but would have generally said that the 37+ was one. A rule of thumb I use is that boat speed should be about half of apparent wind speed while closehulled, up to 14 knots. Above that we should start working to flatten the boat but can wait till 18-20. My wife and I regularly sail with just the two of us. I could single hand the boat by using the auto pilot. In that case the hardest part is getting the main up because you have to stay into the wind for so long. I do regularly use auto to help tack by myself while she is relaxing or cooking. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
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