Hi Navdeep Yes good point, the principle of redundancy (though they wouldn't have used that term!) has a very long history, but von Neumann did more than anyone before him to formalise it:
http://www.cyclify.com/wiki/images/a/af/Von_Neumann_Probabilistic_Logics_and_the_Synthesis_of_Reliable_Organisms_from_Unreliable_Components.pdf Cheers -- Ian On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 11:58, Navdeep Sidhu <sid...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Ian, > > You seem to be slightly off there: The successful use of repeating > observations to reduce (especially systematic) observational error > predates von Neumann by at least 4 centuries. > > One of the first instances of its use was in the 1500s, due to a migrant > scientist working in Denmark and Prague, Czech Republic: Tycho Brahe, > whom "the divine goodness [had] given to us" (Kepler). > > Best regards, > Navdeep > > > --- > On 01.07.20 17:38, Ian Tickle wrote: > > > > Yes this seems to be a common misunderstanding, that the meanings of > > words such as 'redundancy' have to be the same in an informal > > non-scientific context and in a formal technical/scientific context. > > > > So we can say that in an informal context, 'redundancy' means > > "unnecessary duplication (or multiplication) without a purpose", and in > > a formal context it has come to mean, ever since John von Neumann > > pioneered the idea in the 1950s, "duplication / multiplication with the > > express purpose of improving the reliability of the outcome". > > 'Multiplicity / multiplication' is neutral with regard to purpose. > > > > This divergence of meanings should hardly come as a surprise to anyone, > > and also not surprisingly the informal meaning tends to be rather > > ill-defined, for example 'theory' used informally means "hypothesis, > > hunch, speculation, conjecture etc.", whereas in a scientific context it > > has the precise meaning "A coherent > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coherent> statement > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/statement> or set of ideas that explains > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/explain> observed > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/observe> facts > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fact> or phenomena > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phenomenon> and correctly predicts new > > facts or phenomena not previously observed, or which sets out the laws > > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/law> and principles of something known > > or observed; a hypothesis confirmed by observation, experiment etc." > > (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/theory). > > > > "The Hypothesis of Evolution" anyone ? > > > > Cheers > > > > -- Ian > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 14:30, Phil Evans <p...@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk > > <mailto:p...@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>> wrote: > > > > I changed the annotation from “Redundancy” to “Multiplicity” in > > Scala, later in Aimless, after I was taken to task by Elspeth Garman > > with the argument as stated, that if it’s redundant why did you > > bother to measure it? > > > > (this one could run and run …) > > > > Phil > > > > > On 30 Jun 2020, at 14:07, Ian Tickle <ianj...@gmail.com > > <mailto:ianj...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree about RAID but I would go a lot further. There seems to > > be some confusion here over the correct meaning of 'redundant' as > > used in a scientific context. I don't think looking it up in an > > English dictionary is very helpful. So as has been mentioned the > > non-scientific and rather imprecise meanings are "not or no longer > > needed or useful; superfluous" or "exceeding what is necessary or > > natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose". In fact > > both redundant and abundant have the same Latin etymology, and > > redundant literally means 're' (again) + 'unda' (wave), i.e. > > 'repeating as a wave'. The original meaning in English is in fact > > 'over-abundant' and is still used in poetry with that meaning (e.g. > > "as redundant as the poppies in the field"). There's of course also > > the meaning 'dismissal from a job due to a need to reduce the head > > count' and from there 'out of work', but that's relatively recent > > having been coined by a UK Government official in the 1900s! > > > > > > The correct and totally precise scientific meaning which is > > appropriate in the context of this discussion is to be found here: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundancy_(engineering) . Note that > > it applies equally to both hardware and software engineering: > > > > > > Redundancy is the duplication of critical components or functions > > of a system with the intention of increasing reliability of the > > system, usually in the form of a backup or fail-safe, or to improve > > actual system performance. > > > > > > Nothing there about not or no longer needed or useful, > > superfluous, needlessly repetitive, verbose! Note that > > 'multiplicity' totally fails to carry the connotation of increasing > > the system reliability by duplication (i.e. there are multiple > > copies but there's nothing that indicates the justification for > > them). Redundancy occurs in TMR (triple modular redundancy) systems > > used (as I guess Bernhard knows well) in triplicated control systems > > in commercial aircraft. I don't know about you but I wouldn't > > regard the extra two backup systems in TMR as 'not needed or useful' > > when I'm an airline passenger ! > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_modular_redundancy > > > > > > More is always better when it's critical: > > > > > > > > > https://www.isa.org/standards-and-publications/isa-publications/intech-magazine/2003/october/more-is-always-better-when-its-critical > > > > > > There's also the question of the same word (redundancy, > > multiplicity or whatever) having different meanings according to > > context. That's unavoidable given that the number of concepts that > > we might want to name far exceeds the number of words available, so > > we have to rely heavily on context when assigning meaning. We don't > > say what the context is so the context must be obvious and > > unambiguous. Whether we're talking about RAID or losing one's job > > it's obvious what the intended meaning is from the context because > > the contexts are totally separate. The important thing is that the > > contexts should be well-separated so that no confusion is possible. > > Graeme says he's not confused by the various meanings of > > 'multiplicity' but non-crystallographer consumers of Table 1 surely > > might be! The various contexts in which 'multiplicity' is used are > > certainly not well-separated and overlap in program outputs and > > documentation, allowing plenty of scope for confusion. > > > > > > In a scientific context 'redundancy' has a unique precise meaning > > whereas 'multiplicity' has a multiplicity! > > > > > > BTW I use CCP4/Aimless and 'redundancy' (as you no doubt will have > > guessed, because it's the word that unambiguously describes the > > concept), so apparently I'm with you lot across the pond on this! > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > -- Ian > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 09:01, David Waterman <dgwater...@gmail.com > > <mailto:dgwater...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Reflections are as "redundant" as the disks in a RAID 0 array > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 02:49 James Holton, <jmhol...@lbl.gov > > <mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov>> wrote: > > > What could possibly go wrong? > > > > > > -James Holton > > > MAD Scientist > > > > > > On 6/29/2020 6:17 PM, Edward A. Berry wrote: > > > > Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or > at > > > > least not replace them when they fail? > > > > > > > > On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andreas Förster wrote: > > > >> I like to think that the reflections I carefully measured at > high > > > >> multiplicity are not redundant, which the dictionary on my > > computer > > > >> defines as "not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous" and > > the > > > >> American Heritage Dictionary as "exceeding what is necessary or > > > >> natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose". > > > >> > > > >> Please don't use the term Needless repetitivity in your Table > > 1. It > > > >> sends the wrong message. Multiplicity is good. > > > >> > > > >> All best. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Andreas > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:03 AM James Holton <jmhol...@lbl.gov > > <mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov> > > > >> <mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov <mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov>>> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I have found that the use of "redundancy" vs "multiplicity" > > > >> correlates very well with the speaker's favorite processing > > > >> software. The Denzo/HKL program scalepack outputs "redundancy", > > > >> whereas scala/aimless and other more Europe-centric programs > > output > > > >> "multiplicity". > > > >> > > > >> At least it is not as bad as "intensity", which is so > > ambiguous > > > >> as to be almost useless as a word on its own. > > > >> > > > >> -James Holton > > > >> MAD Scientist > > > >> > > > >> On 6/24/2020 10:27 AM, Bernhard Rupp wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > Oh, and some of us prefer the word 'multiplicity' ;-0____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Hmmm…maybe not. ‘Multiplicity’ in crystallography is > context > > > >>> sensitive, and not uniquely defined. It can refer to ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> 1. the position multiplicity (number of equivalent sites > per > > > >>> unit cell, aka Wyckoff-Multiplicity), the only (!) cif use of > > > >>> multiplicity____ > > > >>> 2. the multiplicity of the reflection, which means the > > > >>> superposition of reflections with the same /d/ (mostly powder > > > >>> diffraction) ____ > > > >>> 3. the multiplicity of observations, aka redundancy.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> While (a) and (b) are clearly defined, (c) is an arbitrary > > > >>> experimental number.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> How from (a) real space symmetry follows (b) in reciprocal > > space > > > >>> (including the epsilon zones, another ‘multiplicity’) is > > explained > > > >>> here ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080 > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-s72_nF7$ > > > > > > > >>> ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> and also on page 306 in BMC.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Too much multiplicity might create duplicity… ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Cheers, BR____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> Jon Cooper____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> On 23 Jun 2020 22:04, "Peat, Tom (Manufacturing, > Parkville)" > > > >>> <tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au > > <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au>>> wrote:____ > > > >>> > > > >>> I would just like to point out that for those of us > > who have > > > >>> worked too many times with P1 or P21 that even 360 degrees > > will not > > > >>> give you 'super' anomalous differences. ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> I'm not a minimalist when it comes to data- redundancy > > is a > > > >>> good thing to have. ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> cheers, tom ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> Tom Peat > > > >>> Proteins Group > > > >>> Biomedical Program, CSIRO > > > >>> 343 Royal Parade > > > >>> Parkville, VIC, 3052 > > > >>> +613 9662 7304 > > > >>> +614 57 539 419 > > > >>> tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au > > <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au>> ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > > >>> > > > >>> *From:*CCP4 bulletin board <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> > > > >>> <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>>> > > on behalf of > > > >>> 00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk > > <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> > > > >>> <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk > > <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk>> > > > >>> <00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk > > <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> > > > >>> <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk > > <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk>>> > > > >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:10 AM > > > >>> *To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>> > > > >>> <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> > > <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>>> > > > >>> *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full > > > >>> dataset? ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Someone told me there is a cubic space group where you > > can > > > >>> get away with something like 11 degrees of data. It would be > > > >>> interesting if that's correct. These minimum ranges for data > > > >>> collection rely on the crystal being pre-oriented, which is > > > >>> unheard-of these days, although they can help if someone is > > nagging > > > >>> you to get off the beam line or if your diffraction fades > > quickly. > > > >>> Going for 180 degrees always makes sense for a well-behaved > > crystal, > > > >>> or 360 degrees if you want super anomalous differences. Hope > this > > > >>> helps a bit. ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Jon Cooper____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> On 23 Jun 2020 07:29, Andreas Förster > > > >>> <andreas.foers...@dectris.com > > <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com> > > <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com > > <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com>>> > > > >>> wrote:____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi Murpholino,____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> in my opinion (*), the question is neither number > of > > > >>> frames nor degrees. The only thing that matters to your > > crystal is > > > >>> dose. How many photons does your crystal take before it dies? > > > >>> Consequently, the question to ask is How best to use photons. > > Some > > > >>> people have done exactly that.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528 > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-hiQXkxe$ > >____ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> All best.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> Andreas____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> (*) Disclaimer: I benefit when you use PILATUS or > > EIGER > > > >>> - but I want you to use them to your advantage.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:04 AM Murpholino Peligro > > > >>> <murpholi...@gmail.com <mailto:murpholi...@gmail.com> > > <mailto:murpholi...@gmail.com <mailto:murpholi...@gmail.com>>> > > wrote:____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Hi. > > > >>> Quick question...____ > > > >>> > > > >>> I have seen *somewhere* that to get a 'full > > dataset > > > >>> we need to collect n frames':____ > > > >>> > > > >>> at least 180 frames if symmetry is X____ > > > >>> > > > >>> at least 90 frames if symmetry is Y____ > > > >>> > > > >>> at least 45 frames if symmetry is Z____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Can somebody point where is *somewhere*? ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> ...also...____ > > > >>> > > > >>> what other factors can change n... besides > > symmetry > > > >>> and radiation damage?____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ---------- > > > >>> > > > >>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the > > > >>> following link: > > > >>> > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-tcC1DQz$ > > > > > > > >>> ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Andreas Förster, Ph.D.____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Application Scientist Crystallography, Area Sales > > > >>> Manager Asia & Pacific____ > > > >>> > > > >>> Phone: +41 56 500 21 00| Direct: +41 56 500 21 76| > > > >>> Email: andreas.foers...@dectris.com > > <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com> > > > >>> <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com > > <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com>>____ > > > >>> > > > >>> DECTRIS Ltd. | Taefernweg 1 | 5405 Baden-Daettwil | > > > >>> Switzerland | www.dectris.com <http://www.dectris.com> > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dectris.com__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-gynYjCs$ > >____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> ____ > > > >>> > > > >>> LinkedIn > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/5067919__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-kAHivj7$ > >____ > > > >>> > > > >>> facebook > > > >>> > > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dectris-Ltd/623855944369304__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-rsWJB_s$ > >< > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DECTRIS_News__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-j3aXyCU$ > >____ > > > >>> > > > >>> __ __ > > > >>> > > > >>> /Confidentiality Note: This message is intended > > only for > > > >>> the use of the named recipient(s)/____ > > > >>> > > > >>> /and may contain confidential and/or privileged > > > >>> information. 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