Ok, the analogy is not great because most reflection data sets have some "fault tolerance" whereas RAID 0 does not. But the point is that anything that is not an exact copy and brings actual information should not be considered "redundant"
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 09:00 David Waterman, <dgwater...@gmail.com> wrote: > Reflections are as "redundant" as the disks in a RAID 0 array > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 02:49 James Holton, <jmhol...@lbl.gov> wrote: > >> What could possibly go wrong? >> >> -James Holton >> MAD Scientist >> >> On 6/29/2020 6:17 PM, Edward A. Berry wrote: >> > Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or at >> > least not replace them when they fail? >> > >> > On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andreas Förster wrote: >> >> I like to think that the reflections I carefully measured at high >> >> multiplicity are not redundant, which the dictionary on my computer >> >> defines as "not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous" and the >> >> American Heritage Dictionary as "exceeding what is necessary or >> >> natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose". >> >> >> >> Please don't use the term Needless repetitivity in your Table 1. It >> >> sends the wrong message. Multiplicity is good. >> >> >> >> All best. >> >> >> >> >> >> Andreas >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:03 AM James Holton <jmhol...@lbl.gov >> >> <mailto:jmhol...@lbl.gov>> wrote: >> >> >> >> I have found that the use of "redundancy" vs "multiplicity" >> >> correlates very well with the speaker's favorite processing >> >> software. The Denzo/HKL program scalepack outputs "redundancy", >> >> whereas scala/aimless and other more Europe-centric programs output >> >> "multiplicity". >> >> >> >> At least it is not as bad as "intensity", which is so ambiguous >> >> as to be almost useless as a word on its own. >> >> >> >> -James Holton >> >> MAD Scientist >> >> >> >> On 6/24/2020 10:27 AM, Bernhard Rupp wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > Oh, and some of us prefer the word 'multiplicity' ;-0____ >> >>> >> >>> Hmmm…maybe not. ‘Multiplicity’ in crystallography is context >> >>> sensitive, and not uniquely defined. It can refer to ____ >> >>> >> >>> 1. the position multiplicity (number of equivalent sites per >> >>> unit cell, aka Wyckoff-Multiplicity), the only (!) cif use of >> >>> multiplicity____ >> >>> 2. the multiplicity of the reflection, which means the >> >>> superposition of reflections with the same /d/ (mostly powder >> >>> diffraction) ____ >> >>> 3. the multiplicity of observations, aka redundancy.____ >> >>> >> >>> While (a) and (b) are clearly defined, (c) is an arbitrary >> >>> experimental number.____ >> >>> >> >>> How from (a) real space symmetry follows (b) in reciprocal space >> >>> (including the epsilon zones, another ‘multiplicity’) is explained >> >>> here ____ >> >>> >> >>> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080 >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-s72_nF7$> >> >> >>> ____ >> >>> >> >>> and also on page 306 in BMC.____ >> >>> >> >>> Too much multiplicity might create duplicity… ____ >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, BR____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> Jon Cooper____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> On 23 Jun 2020 22:04, "Peat, Tom (Manufacturing, Parkville)" >> >>> <tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au>> wrote:____ >> >>> >> >>> I would just like to point out that for those of us who have >> >>> worked too many times with P1 or P21 that even 360 degrees will not >> >>> give you 'super' anomalous differences. ____ >> >>> >> >>> I'm not a minimalist when it comes to data- redundancy is a >> >>> good thing to have. ____ >> >>> >> >>> cheers, tom ____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> Tom Peat >> >>> Proteins Group >> >>> Biomedical Program, CSIRO >> >>> 343 Royal Parade >> >>> Parkville, VIC, 3052 >> >>> +613 9662 7304 >> >>> +614 57 539 419 >> >>> tom.p...@csiro.au <mailto:tom.p...@csiro.au> ____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -- >> >>> >> >>> *From:*CCP4 bulletin board <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK >> >>> <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>> on behalf of >> >>> 00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk >> >>> <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> >> >>> <00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk >> >>> <mailto:00000c2488af9525-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk>> >> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:10 AM >> >>> *To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK> >> >>> <CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK <mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK>> >> >>> *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full >> >>> dataset? ____ >> >>> >> >>> ____ >> >>> >> >>> Someone told me there is a cubic space group where you can >> >>> get away with something like 11 degrees of data. It would be >> >>> interesting if that's correct. These minimum ranges for data >> >>> collection rely on the crystal being pre-oriented, which is >> >>> unheard-of these days, although they can help if someone is nagging >> >>> you to get off the beam line or if your diffraction fades quickly. >> >>> Going for 180 degrees always makes sense for a well-behaved crystal, >> >>> or 360 degrees if you want super anomalous differences. Hope this >> >>> helps a bit. ____ >> >>> >> >>> Jon Cooper____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> On 23 Jun 2020 07:29, Andreas Förster >> >>> <andreas.foers...@dectris.com <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com>> >> >>> wrote:____ >> >>> >> >>> Hi Murpholino,____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> in my opinion (*), the question is neither number of >> >>> frames nor degrees. The only thing that matters to your crystal is >> >>> dose. How many photons does your crystal take before it dies? >> >>> Consequently, the question to ask is How best to use photons. Some >> >>> people have done exactly that.____ >> >>> >> >>> https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528 >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-hiQXkxe$ >> >____ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> All best.____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> Andreas____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> (*) Disclaimer: I benefit when you use PILATUS or EIGER >> >>> - but I want you to use them to your advantage.____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:04 AM Murpholino Peligro >> >>> <murpholi...@gmail.com <mailto:murpholi...@gmail.com>> wrote:____ >> >>> >> >>> Hi. >> >>> Quick question...____ >> >>> >> >>> I have seen *somewhere* that to get a 'full dataset >> >>> we need to collect n frames':____ >> >>> >> >>> at least 180 frames if symmetry is X____ >> >>> >> >>> at least 90 frames if symmetry is Y____ >> >>> >> >>> at least 45 frames if symmetry is Z____ >> >>> >> >>> Can somebody point where is *somewhere*? ____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> ...also...____ >> >>> >> >>> what other factors can change n... besides symmetry >> >>> and radiation damage?____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> Thanks____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ---------- >> >>> >> >>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the >> >>> following link: >> >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-tcC1DQz$> >> >> >>> ____ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- ____ >> >>> >> >>> Andreas Förster, Ph.D.____ >> >>> >> >>> Application Scientist Crystallography, Area Sales >> >>> Manager Asia & Pacific____ >> >>> >> >>> Phone: +41 56 500 21 00| Direct: +41 56 500 21 76| >> >>> Email: andreas.foers...@dectris.com >> >>> <mailto:andreas.foers...@dectris.com>____ >> >>> >> >>> DECTRIS Ltd. | Taefernweg 1 | 5405 Baden-Daettwil | >> >>> Switzerland | www.dectris.com >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dectris.com__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-gynYjCs$ >> >____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> ____ >> >>> >> >>> LinkedIn >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/5067919__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-kAHivj7$ >> >____ >> >>> >> >>> facebook >> >>> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dectris-Ltd/623855944369304__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-rsWJB_s$ >> >< >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/DECTRIS_News__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-j3aXyCU$ >> >____ >> >>> >> >>> __ __ >> >>> >> >>> /Confidentiality Note: This message is intended only for >> >>> the use of the named recipient(s)/____ >> >>> >> >>> /and may contain confidential and/or privileged >> >>> information. 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>> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >> >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >> >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-tcC1DQz$ >> > >> >> >> > >> > ######################################################################## >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >> > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >> > >> > This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a >> > mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are >> > available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >> 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