Namaste,
>> Also what it is that Banglore is chosen but not confirmed venue. Karavali >> User Group please confirm what is happening. I am the founder secretary of Karavali Wkimedians User Group (KWUG). We have no idea about the venue of WCI other than what is being publicly available in mailing lists and in the open community calls. Unfortunately I did not attend any open community call due to clash with other engagements. Hence, I am not aware of what is being discussed there. We, KWUG, have not been consulted by any organisers of WCI regarding the venue and being a party to the organising team. @Arvind, It appears from your email that you got confused between Bangalore and Mangalore. KWUG is active in Mangalore and nearby places of coastal Karnataka. In fact, the word Karavali means coastal. The distance from Mangalore to Bangalore is about 350 KM. Once again, I would like to inform that we, KWUG, are not officially involved with organising WCI. In future, if we are requested to join the organising team, we will be happy to support. Thanks and regards, Pavanaja Secretary, Karavali Wikimedians User Group. From: Arvind Menon <[email protected]> Sent: 28 September 2024 11:51 To: Wikimedia India Community list <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: [WikimediaIndia-l] Re: CIS Staff on Scholarship Commitee Please Wait Grant has already been submitted ? Has this been informed on Village Pump and Mailing List for community support and inputs? Also what it is that Banglore is chosen but not confirmed venue. Karavali User Group please confirm what is happening. WMF has appreciated the grant proposal also so much. Now they will come up with an excuse that there is no rule for community input and some Sunday video call is more than enough. Arvind On Sat, 28 Sept 2024 at 11:31, Aafi <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I agree with your statement of bringing Punjabi/Bengali to the forefront. However, they need to come on their own. Let them show the interest. Kind regards Aafi On Sat, 28 Sept 2024, 11:28 Aafi, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Although, I don't have capacity to touch on all issues raised above, Bangalore in the proposal is tentative, and being part of one of the discussions, it was clear that the local community will be involved to make the event smoother, but there are perhaps time limitations. The best way to answer the WikiConference question, would be someone from CIS. I've myself been into Wikimedia ecosystem since 2019, and have helped establish three Wiki clubs, and I haven't seen CIS staff ever stopping me in taking the lead. I have also guided newbies into seeking support from CIS to lead local events & develop capacity. For WikiConference India 2025, a call to support the organising team was also conveyed during one of the South Asia Open Community Calls which I myself moderated, and emails were also sent over. Several volunteers responded/sent emails to support, and they must be part of the group, in my knowledge. However, the suggestion of Bangalore in the proposal is tentative per 8 September call. Local communities are always necessary. Kind regards Aafi On Sat, 28 Sept 2024, 11:22 Jayantilal Kothari, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear Azaf, Please don’t divert the topic into WMF staff doing volunteer tasks. There is more than enough evidence of those issues as well, starting right from the 2011 India Education Program. Back then, WMF hired a non-Wiki person who didn’t collaborate with the local community, attempted to replace them, and ultimately failed—leading to the program's closure. Fast forward to the recent Instagram influencer project, where WMF again chose to bypass local affiliates. They hired another non-Wiki person who, to this day, has not responded to questions about the program. I’ve asked multiple times over the mailing list and even in person, but this person avoids addressing the concerns. I can list dozens of such examples, including when you, Asaf, traveled all over India to train people, as if no one in India was qualified enough to handle it. But let’s not digress into the topic of WMF staff doing volunteer tasks; this is about CIS. It’s quite clear why WMF might want to step in to protect CIS—it almost looks like an employee exchange program. We’ve seen CIS staff who were protecting WMF get hired by CIS, and recently, a WMF staff member overseeing CIS funding was hired by CIS. Your analogy doesn’t work. WMF/CIS staff aren’t paid to write articles, and neither are regular editors. It’s perfectly fine for staff and volunteers to collaborate, but in this case, CIS submits grants and does all the work themselves. A recent example: CIS submitted a grant to host Wiki Conference India without involving the Bangalore community or any other local groups. Logically, they could have partnered with the Bangalore community and let them take the lead, but CIS seems set on making themselves irreplaceable. And now, it looks like you’re backing them, which is fine—just be transparent about it. And just to note, even WMF found the time to respond here, but there’s been zero response or acknowledgment from CIS. They had the time to submit a grant proposal and bypass the community, but not to respond to these concerns. Let’s see how many more days CIS takes to reply, and whether WMF continues to ignore this. I request CIS to hand over Wiki Conference India to any local user group or community members with experience in hosting such events. I wish to nominate Bengal and/or Panjabi community to lead this due to their prior experience of hosting national Wiki Conferences. Even Aafi or Chinu, with their experience in organizing WikiWomenCamp, can take up leadership and manage the formation of the committee, bidding, and other aspects. Then, let them resubmit the grant proposal. If CIS fails to allow the community to host this event, there will be consequences, potentially adding up to an FCRA violation. CIS is currently violating FCRA rules by taking money from a foreign organization in the name of empowering Indian communities without clear evidence of doing so. Wikimedia Foundation might not be interested in holding CIS accountable, but I’m sure FCRA and the Indian government will be. Regards, Jayantilal Sent from my iPhone On Sun, 22 Sep 2024 at 2:50 AM, Asaf Bartov <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Hello, all. I agree Arvind's post was not necessarily targeting Nitesh for her gender, so I suggest leaving that aside. Chinu is correct is the rest of her response: there is neither any formal prohibition nor any cause for concern in a staff member also filling volunteer roles, and it does not come at the *expense* of other volunteers, any more than if a staffer writes a Wikipedia article in their spare time, which obviously does not come at the expense of any of you writing Wikipedia articles as well. What does seem to me to be unfair is the constant litany of "staff are taking work away from volunteers", which I have been hearing continuously since 2011. It seems to me that there is very little evidence that staff ever took work from the hands of willing and capable volunteers. As Aafi mentioned upthread, there was a call for volunteers for this scholarship committee, and all Arvind (or others) had to do, if they didn't want to see staff filling this role, was to STEP UP and volunteer. Apparently they did not. Historically, the Foundation was eager to empower Indian communities with resources commensurate with their ability to carry out programs. CIS-A2K has indeed been the main vehicle of resourcing work, but it seems to me there was a lot of flexibility in how those resources are put in service of the community, including short-term contracts with community members who were willing and able to do paid work for the community's benefit. I encourage folks voicing such complaints to bring evidence of concrete cases where willing and able volunteers were *prevented* from filling a role by staff insisting to do it themselves. I also encourage folks to make sure that alongside complaints, they *also* contribute constructively to this mailing list, e.g. by sharing their own inspiring and impactful work, or by offering their expertise when others seek help. Cheers, A. Asaf Bartov (he/him/his) Lead Program Officer, Community Development Communities <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> Wikimedia Foundation Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org On Sun, Sep 22, 2024 at 12:08 AM Jayantilal Kothari <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear Chini, It’s ironic that as the admin of WikiWomen Camp, you're asking mailing list owners and moderators for attention, while you’re contributing to the very issue you're blaming on others. Bringing gender into this discussion was completely unnecessary and unrelated to the actual concerns being discussed. "Nitesh" is a gender-neutral name, often used by people of different genders in many cultures, and none of us on the mailing list had any knowledge of Nitesh's gender until you explicitly pointed it out. By introducing such personal details, you're only shifting the focus away from the real issues, adding an unnecessary distraction to the conversation.. Regarding the matter of stepping down, the simple question remains: where is the community? CIS takes pride in its train-the-trainer programs and building leaders, but the staff rarely passes leadership opportunities to community members. This isn’t limited to Wikisource—it goes beyond that. Wiki Conference India is another example where CIS staff, who are paid for the same work, take opportunities away from volunteers in their free time. CIS has been running its Train the Trainer program for almost a decade, and yet, even after TEN years, we still see CIS staff handling roles under the guise of volunteer work. Either they are not training volunteers effectively, or they are, but the staff is not allowing them to take leadership opportunities. Either way, this reflects poorly on both CIS and WMF.. For those who don’t know, CIS's funding for Wikimedia work comes directly from WMF. Volunteers contribute to Wikimedia projects, and WMF raises donations based on that work. These donations fund the salaries of CIS employees. CIS should be grateful to Wikimedians for their contributions because, directly or indirectly, they are funding these salaries through WMF. Rather than holding back volunteers, CIS should empower the community to take the lead. If CIS continues this pattern of pushing staff into leadership roles under the pretense of volunteering—despite previously claiming otherwise—then it is really unfortunate and same shall be investigated.. This is not only an issue of transparency but also a potential violation of FCRA regulations, as CIS may be misleading foreign organizations to bring in funds and then misguiding Indian citizens about how that money is used. It is unfortunate that CIS doesn’t take the community and its long-term goals seriously. While staff members might be unaware of these issues, it is CIS’s responsibility to train its staff to promote volunteer leadership instead of hijacking it. Additionally, the same issues apply to WMF staff in India, and others. WMF staff who regularly attend community calls, including but not limited to them, frequently ask community members about their individual contributions. For example, their Lead Partnerships Manager staff for India could share the number of partnerships he has formed and explain how they are helping the community, while their Senior Global Movement Communications Specialist staff could detail what he has been doing, especially considering he has been giving money to Instagram influencers to promote Wikipedia. Despite being asked about this, they have not responded to any such queries but continues to attend community meetups and hold the community accountable. This is quite ironic given their own lack of transparency and impact reports. Now, CIS will likely ask a few trained leaders to respond to this email, stating they have been trained well. However, that leadership should be reflected in real roles at conferences, not just on mailing lists. CIS also tends to take existing leaders and label them as trained under their programs, but even in those cases, they rarely give these leaders the chance to actually lead. Both this Wikisource conference and Wiki Conference India are just a few examples where staff members have taken up roles under the pretense of being volunteers. CIS should be focusing on providing more opportunities for others to lead. Let’s focus on the real issues instead of unnecessary assumptions. Regards, Jayantilal Sent from my iPhone On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 at 5:02 PM, Yohann Thomas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear community It's very disappointing to see that this , almost decade long debate on employee- volunteer relationship in the community has still not yet reached an acceptable conclusion. This cycle of CIS nurturing active community members & then absorbing them as employees, at times leads to disheartenment in some community members . Which leads to temporary growth but not long lasting organic community growth. In this case Arvind tried to raise a valid point here. CIS must be answerable to the question that the community growth as envisioned , is not visible. Are the long term metrics met .. ? Or is it that WMF doesn't have any other organisation to help with it's vision in India , so that's why these metrics are never followed up on... This is a question the community has been always been asking & has never got its answers.. Regards, Yohann On Fri, 13 Sept 2024, 11:59 Arvind Menon, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear Chinu Ji, Please note this is a Gender neutral discussion on Staff and their volunteering role in the name of personal capacity. Please note that in Wikimedia policies evolve as per discussion from time to time. Community consultation and listening to them is the most important thing. Your message is like there is no policy so do not discuss or talk. Plese also note I respect not just Women but LGBT and other communities. When talk on this issue started Trust and Safety was copied from the beginning even before sending this the email body was shown to those involved as written on above.Trust and Safety was also copied and asked for any violations. This is not an email just shot from anywhere. Now why are you targeting mailing list admins? I will be sending some more emails on CIS and their poor work performance compared to their budget. But I will not do it just like this. I will once again share the draft with them beforehand and copying Trust and Safety. After that I will share on mailing list. Now please check CIS reports and how much activity is done in the name of Wikisource. This is not about any public pressure to step down but CIS would be happy themselves had they got volunteers to do this work. Even this CIS staff would have been happy. There could have been so many Women leaders in Wikisource to volunteer this work. I request to you audit their work and share with all of us what better could be done in coming days. I am with you on developing more Women volunteers. I would also request CIS not to shoot down any discussion but listen to the feedback. Atleast Vishnu was always open to listening the community. Tanveer and Pawan are expected not different. The first step is to accept the gender gap challenge and only then we all can improve. Wish you the best for CIS Train The Trainer event in Odisha. Arvind On Friday 13 September 2024, Women Camp <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Arvind ji, I am writing to address recent comments and concerns you’ve raised regarding staff involvement in Wikimedia spaces. It is important to clarify that there is no policy within the Wikimedia movement that restricts anyone’s participation based on their employment with any affiliate or the Wikimedia Foundation until or unless there is a Conflict of Interest. Staff members, just like any other individuals, have the right to engage with movement initiatives in their personal capacities. Their involvement, when not violating any policy, should be treated with all fairness and respect. By definition, volunteer work in Wikimedia spaces is open to everyone, including staff, and is based on the principles of free knowledge and community participation. Staff members can, and often do, volunteer their time and efforts outside of their professional roles, contributing meaningfully to the movement. Volunteering is not limited by employment status, and it's crucial to understand that participation enriches our shared goals. The ability to organize a conference depends on experience, willingness and time they can offer to create inclusive and productive spaces for learning & collaboration. Questioning someone’s involvement based on their professional background not only undermines their contributions but also disrespects the collective wisdom of any Conference Organizing Team (COT), who carefully consider all contributors to ensure the success of an event. Furthermore, I must express my deep concern regarding the manner in which you have raised these issues, particularly targeting a woman in a public mailing list. Given the persistent gender gap in leadership roles across Wikimedia spaces, it is disheartening to witness such actions. Asking someone to step down under pressure does not necessarily lead to greater respect—it can actually undermine the spirit of inclusivity and volunteerism that we all work hard to uphold. We are all here to support the same mission, and fostering an inclusive, supportive environment for everyone—regardless of gender, professional background, or experience—is essential to achieving that goal. I’ll urge the mailing list owners to monitor such personal targets given the recent recommendations (just 2 days ago) we have received from the WMF Trust & Safety team.. Sincerely, Chinu On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:46 PM Neechal Karan <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I agree with the point that we need to encourage more leadership from the community. Minimize the Staff involvement in the community driven events. However I don't have any specific comment on any staff members. I appreciate their effort on what they do to bring this successful conference. Since the topic is in the table, I feel their response will help us to understand better on this scenario. Regards, Neechalkaran On Thu, 12 Sept, 2024, 10:19 pm Arvind Menon, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear Aafi, I will request you to check CIS annual grants from the start and also the activity report. So much money has been taken in the name of Wikisource to do workshop, digitisation, hire resource person, do Wikisource in Education Program and what all. I will hesitate to share the amount someone from CIS should reply along with links and money in rupee not dollars. Community should know this. Sunil Abrahim, Vishnu Vardhan both said they want community to take leadership and staff to step back. Is Tanveer Hasan and Pavan Santosh on different floor? After spending so much money on Wikisource, CIS should have made some leaders to do these work. The CIS team would have been so proud of themselves and community would have also come up and said Well Done! CIS could have told the volunteers to take initiatives and we are right behind you for help. Unfortunately nothing like this happened and CIS staff are doing all these work on their own and saying doing it in personal capacity. Which model will you prefer Aafi? Edit counts are not the basis to judge others on scholarship but they are also important to have better experience. Many more volunteer editors have so much edits and they have admin and other access. They should be given a chance. Do you disagree Aafi? 2023 when this discussion happened many volunteers came up but why CIS staff was chosen. I cannot understand. If CIS person steps down today she will not lose respect but gain respect. I am sure about that. I am sorry Aafi if you consider my email to be baseless accusations. I will not reply then. Arvind On Thu, 12 Sept 2024 at 20:22, Aafi <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: The Conference Leads did share a call for volunteers for a long time, but I suspect not many presented themselves to volunteer for several organising committees for the Conference. Nitesh is a long time Wikimedia contributor who actively contributes to Wiki projects and is also a visible face of many volunteer based initiatives. If she comes in her volunteer capacity to be a part of the Scholarship COT, what issue is there? I assume no. There are plenty of Wikimedians who also work for the Wikimedia Foundation or other organisations, whilst also supporting several programs voluntarily. I do not find any misuse of power there. I'd appreciate it if you could explain yourself rather than making baseless accusations. Just an FYI: I'm not a Wikisource contributor and my response doesn't endorse/approve of any Wikisource Conference COT opinions. This response is entirely my own observation. Kind regards Aafi On Thu, 12 Sept 2024, 10:51 Arvind Menon, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dear Community Members, Wikisource is having a conference and Nitesh Gill who is CIS-A2K staff is on the scholarship committee. After such a big community we can't find any volunteers. Staff are not meant to select community members for scholarship. This is a misuse of power. Everything in the name of personal capacity is a misuse of power and community cannot grow like this. Arvind This message has already been shown to Trust&Safety at WMF, Nitesh Gill and several Wikisource community members involved with the conference. _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ _______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
_______________________________________________ WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
