Dear community It's very disappointing to see that this , almost decade long debate on employee- volunteer relationship in the community has still not yet reached an acceptable conclusion.
This cycle of CIS nurturing active community members & then absorbing them as employees, at times leads to disheartenment in some community members . Which leads to temporary growth but not long lasting organic community growth. In this case Arvind tried to raise a valid point here. CIS must be answerable to the question that the community growth as envisioned , is not visible. Are the long term metrics met .. ? Or is it that WMF doesn't have any other organisation to help with it's vision in India , so that's why these metrics are never followed up on... This is a question the community has been always been asking & has never got its answers.. Regards, Yohann On Fri, 13 Sept 2024, 11:59 Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Chinu Ji, > > Please note this is a Gender neutral discussion on Staff and their > volunteering role in the name of personal capacity. Please note that in > Wikimedia policies evolve as per discussion from time to time. Community > consultation and listening to them is the most important thing. > > Your message is like there is no policy so do not discuss or talk. > > Plese also note I respect not just Women but LGBT and other communities. > When talk on this issue started Trust and Safety was copied from the > beginning even before sending this the email body was shown to those > involved as written on above.Trust and Safety was also copied and asked for > any violations. This is not an email just shot from anywhere. Now why are > you targeting mailing list admins? > > I will be sending some more emails on CIS and their poor work performance > compared to their budget. But I will not do it just like this. I will once > again share the draft with them beforehand and copying Trust and Safety. > After that I will share on mailing list. > > Now please check CIS reports and how much activity is done in the name of > Wikisource. This is not about any public pressure to step down but CIS > would be happy themselves had they got volunteers to do this work. Even > this CIS staff would have been happy. There could have been so many Women > leaders in Wikisource to volunteer this work. > > I request to you audit their work and share with all of us what better > could be done in coming days. I am with you on developing more Women > volunteers. I would also request CIS not to shoot down any discussion but > listen to the feedback. Atleast Vishnu was always open to listening the > community. Tanveer and Pawan are expected not different. The first step is > to accept the gender gap challenge and only then we all can improve. > > Wish you the best for CIS Train The Trainer event in Odisha. > > Arvind > > On Friday 13 September 2024, Women Camp <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Arvind ji, >> >> I am writing to address recent comments and concerns you’ve raised >> regarding staff involvement in Wikimedia spaces. It is important to clarify >> that there is no policy within the Wikimedia movement that restricts >> anyone’s participation based on their employment with any affiliate or the >> Wikimedia Foundation until or unless there is a Conflict of Interest. Staff >> members, just like any other individuals, have the right to engage with >> movement initiatives in their personal capacities. Their involvement, when >> not violating any policy, should be treated with all fairness and respect. >> >> By definition, volunteer work in Wikimedia spaces is open to everyone, >> including staff, and is based on the principles of free knowledge and >> community participation. Staff members can, and often do, volunteer their >> time and efforts outside of their professional roles, contributing >> meaningfully to the movement. Volunteering is not limited by employment >> status, and it's crucial to understand that participation enriches our >> shared goals. >> >> The ability to organize a conference depends on experience, willingness >> and time they can offer to create inclusive and productive spaces for >> learning & collaboration. Questioning someone’s involvement based on their >> professional background not only undermines their contributions but also >> disrespects the collective wisdom of any Conference Organizing Team (COT), >> who carefully consider all contributors to ensure the success of an event. >> >> Furthermore, I must express my deep concern regarding the manner in which >> you have raised these issues, particularly targeting a woman in a public >> mailing list. Given the persistent gender gap in leadership roles across >> Wikimedia spaces, it is disheartening to witness such actions. Asking >> someone to step down under pressure does not necessarily lead to greater >> respect—it can actually undermine the spirit of inclusivity and >> volunteerism that we all work hard to uphold. >> >> We are all here to support the same mission, and fostering an inclusive, >> supportive environment for everyone—regardless of gender, professional >> background, or experience—is essential to achieving that goal. >> >> I’ll urge the mailing list owners to monitor such personal targets given >> the recent recommendations (just 2 days ago) we have received from the WMF >> Trust & Safety team.. >> >> Sincerely, >> Chinu >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:46 PM Neechal Karan <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I agree with the point that we need to encourage more leadership from >>> the community. Minimize the Staff involvement in the community driven >>> events. However I don't have any specific comment on any staff members. I >>> appreciate their effort on what they do to bring this successful >>> conference. Since the topic is in the table, I feel their response will >>> help us to understand better on this scenario. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Neechalkaran >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 12 Sept, 2024, 10:19 pm Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Aafi, >>>> >>>> I will request you to check CIS annual grants from the start and also >>>> the activity report. So much money has been taken in the name of Wikisource >>>> to do workshop, digitisation, hire resource person, do Wikisource in >>>> Education Program and what all. I will hesitate to share the amount someone >>>> from CIS should reply along with links and money in rupee not dollars. >>>> Community should know this. >>>> >>>> Sunil Abrahim, Vishnu Vardhan both said they want community to take >>>> leadership and staff to step back. Is Tanveer Hasan and Pavan Santosh on >>>> different floor? After spending so much money on Wikisource, CIS should >>>> have made some leaders to do these work. The CIS team would have been so >>>> proud of themselves and community would have also come up and said Well >>>> Done! CIS could have told the volunteers to take initiatives and we are >>>> right behind you for help. Unfortunately nothing like this happened and CIS >>>> staff are doing all these work on their own and saying doing it in personal >>>> capacity. Which model will you prefer Aafi? >>>> >>>> Edit counts are not the basis to judge others on scholarship but they >>>> are also important to have better experience. Many more volunteer editors >>>> have so much edits and they have admin and other access. They should be >>>> given a chance. Do you disagree Aafi? 2023 when this discussion happened >>>> many volunteers came up but why CIS staff was chosen. I cannot understand. >>>> >>>> If CIS person steps down today she will not lose respect but gain >>>> respect. I am sure about that. >>>> >>>> I am sorry Aafi if you consider my email to be baseless accusations. I >>>> will not reply then. >>>> >>>> Arvind >>>> >>>> On Thu, 12 Sept 2024 at 20:22, Aafi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Conference Leads did share a call for volunteers for a long time, >>>>> but I suspect not many presented themselves to volunteer for several >>>>> organising committees for the Conference. Nitesh is a long time Wikimedia >>>>> contributor who actively contributes to Wiki projects and is also a >>>>> visible >>>>> face of many volunteer based initiatives. If she comes in her volunteer >>>>> capacity to be a part of the Scholarship COT, what issue is there? I >>>>> assume >>>>> no. >>>>> >>>>> There are plenty of Wikimedians who also work for the Wikimedia >>>>> Foundation or other organisations, whilst also supporting several programs >>>>> voluntarily. I do not find any misuse of power there. I'd appreciate it if >>>>> you could explain yourself rather than making baseless accusations. >>>>> >>>>> Just an FYI: I'm not a Wikisource contributor and my response doesn't >>>>> endorse/approve of any Wikisource Conference COT opinions. This response >>>>> is >>>>> entirely my own observation. >>>>> >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> Aafi >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 12 Sept 2024, 10:51 Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Community Members, >>>>>> >>>>>> Wikisource is having a conference and Nitesh Gill who is CIS-A2K >>>>>> staff is on the scholarship committee. After such a big community we >>>>>> can't >>>>>> find any volunteers. Staff are not meant to select community members for >>>>>> scholarship. This is a misuse of power. Everything in the name of >>>>>> personal >>>>>> capacity is a misuse of power and community cannot grow like this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arvind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This message has already been shown to Trust&Safety at WMF, Nitesh >>>>>> Gill and several Wikisource community members involved with the >>>>>> conference. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ > WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
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