Hello, all. I agree Arvind's post was not necessarily targeting Nitesh for her gender, so I suggest leaving that aside. Chinu is correct is the rest of her response: there is neither any formal prohibition nor any cause for concern in a staff member also filling volunteer roles, and it does not come at the *expense* of other volunteers, any more than if a staffer writes a Wikipedia article in their spare time, which obviously does not come at the expense of any of you writing Wikipedia articles as well.
What does seem to me to be unfair is the constant litany of "staff are taking work away from volunteers", which I have been hearing continuously since 2011. It seems to me that there is very little evidence that staff ever took work from the hands of willing and capable volunteers. As Aafi mentioned upthread, there was a call for volunteers for this scholarship committee, and all Arvind (or others) had to do, if they didn't want to see staff filling this role, was to STEP UP and volunteer. Apparently they did not. Historically, the Foundation was eager to empower Indian communities with resources commensurate with their ability to carry out programs. CIS-A2K has indeed been the main vehicle of resourcing work, but it seems to me there was a lot of flexibility in how those resources are put in service of the community, including short-term contracts with community members who were willing and able to do paid work for the community's benefit. I encourage folks voicing such complaints to bring evidence of concrete cases where willing and able volunteers were *prevented* from filling a role by staff insisting to do it themselves. I also encourage folks to make sure that alongside complaints, they *also* contribute constructively to this mailing list, e.g. by sharing their own inspiring and impactful work, or by offering their expertise when others seek help. Cheers, A. Asaf Bartov (he/him/his) Lead Program Officer, Community Development Communities Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org On Sun, Sep 22, 2024 at 12:08 AM Jayantilal Kothari <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Chini, > > It’s ironic that as the admin of WikiWomen Camp, you're asking mailing > list owners and moderators for attention, while you’re contributing to the > very issue you're blaming on others. > > Bringing gender into this discussion was completely unnecessary and > unrelated to the actual concerns being discussed. "Nitesh" is a > gender-neutral name, often used by people of different genders in many > cultures, and none of us on the mailing list had any knowledge of Nitesh's > gender until you explicitly pointed it out. By introducing such personal > details, you're only shifting the focus away from the real issues, adding > an unnecessary distraction to the conversation.. > > Regarding the matter of stepping down, the simple question remains: where > is the community? CIS takes pride in its train-the-trainer programs and > building leaders, but the staff rarely passes leadership opportunities to > community members. This isn’t limited to Wikisource—it goes beyond that. > Wiki Conference India is another example where CIS staff, who are paid for > the same work, take opportunities away from volunteers in their free time. > CIS has been running its Train the Trainer program for almost a decade, and > yet, even after TEN years, we still see CIS staff handling roles under the > guise of volunteer work. Either they are not training volunteers > effectively, or they are, but the staff is not allowing them to take > leadership opportunities. Either way, this reflects poorly on both CIS and > WMF.. > > For those who don’t know, CIS's funding for Wikimedia work comes directly > from WMF. Volunteers contribute to Wikimedia projects, and WMF raises > donations based on that work. These donations fund the salaries of CIS > employees. CIS should be grateful to Wikimedians for their contributions > because, directly or indirectly, they are funding these salaries through > WMF. Rather than holding back volunteers, CIS should empower the community > to take the lead. If CIS continues this pattern of pushing staff into > leadership roles under the pretense of volunteering—despite previously > claiming otherwise—then it is really unfortunate and same shall be > investigated.. > > This is not only an issue of transparency but also a potential violation > of FCRA regulations, as CIS may be misleading foreign organizations to > bring in funds and then misguiding Indian citizens about how that money is > used. It is unfortunate that CIS doesn’t take the community and its > long-term goals seriously. While staff members might be unaware of these > issues, it is CIS’s responsibility to train its staff to promote volunteer > leadership instead of hijacking it. > > Additionally, the same issues apply to WMF staff in India, and others. WMF > staff who regularly attend community calls, including but not limited to > them, frequently ask community members about their individual > contributions. For example, their Lead Partnerships Manager staff for India > could share the number of partnerships he has formed and explain how they > are helping the community, while their Senior Global Movement > Communications Specialist staff could detail what he has been doing, > especially considering he has been giving money to Instagram influencers to > promote Wikipedia. Despite being asked about this, they have not responded > to any such queries but continues to attend community meetups and hold the > community accountable. This is quite ironic given their own lack of > transparency and impact reports. > > Now, CIS will likely ask a few trained leaders to respond to this email, > stating they have been trained well. However, that leadership should be > reflected in real roles at conferences, not just on mailing lists. CIS also > tends to take existing leaders and label them as trained under their > programs, but even in those cases, they rarely give these leaders the > chance to actually lead. Both this Wikisource conference and Wiki > Conference India are just a few examples where staff members have taken up > roles under the pretense of being volunteers. CIS should be focusing on > providing more opportunities for others to lead. > > Let’s focus on the real issues instead of unnecessary assumptions. > > Regards, > > Jayantilal > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 at 5:02 PM, Yohann Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear community >> >> It's very disappointing to see that this , almost decade long debate on >> employee- volunteer relationship in the community has still not yet reached >> an acceptable conclusion. >> >> This cycle of CIS nurturing active community members & then absorbing >> them as employees, at times leads to disheartenment in some community >> members . Which leads to temporary growth but not long lasting organic >> community growth. >> >> In this case Arvind tried to raise a valid point here. CIS must be >> answerable to the question that the community growth as envisioned , is >> not visible. >> >> Are the long term metrics met .. ? Or is it that WMF doesn't have any >> other organisation to help with it's vision in India , so that's why these >> metrics are never followed up on... >> This is a question the community has been always been asking & has never >> got its answers.. >> >> Regards, >> Yohann >> >> On Fri, 13 Sept 2024, 11:59 Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Chinu Ji, >>> >>> Please note this is a Gender neutral discussion on Staff and their >>> volunteering role in the name of personal capacity. Please note that in >>> Wikimedia policies evolve as per discussion from time to time. Community >>> consultation and listening to them is the most important thing. >>> >>> Your message is like there is no policy so do not discuss or talk. >>> >>> Plese also note I respect not just Women but LGBT and other >>> communities. When talk on this issue started Trust and Safety was copied >>> from the beginning even before sending this the email body was shown to >>> those involved as written on above.Trust and Safety was also copied and >>> asked for any violations. This is not an email just shot from anywhere. Now >>> why are you targeting mailing list admins? >>> >>> I will be sending some more emails on CIS and their poor work >>> performance compared to their budget. But I will not do it just like this. >>> I will once again share the draft with them beforehand and copying Trust >>> and Safety. After that I will share on mailing list. >>> >>> Now please check CIS reports and how much activity is done in the name >>> of Wikisource. This is not about any public pressure to step down but CIS >>> would be happy themselves had they got volunteers to do this work. Even >>> this CIS staff would have been happy. There could have been so many Women >>> leaders in Wikisource to volunteer this work. >>> >>> I request to you audit their work and share with all of us what better >>> could be done in coming days. I am with you on developing more Women >>> volunteers. I would also request CIS not to shoot down any discussion but >>> listen to the feedback. Atleast Vishnu was always open to listening the >>> community. Tanveer and Pawan are expected not different. The first step is >>> to accept the gender gap challenge and only then we all can improve. >>> >>> Wish you the best for CIS Train The Trainer event in Odisha. >>> >>> Arvind >>> >>> On Friday 13 September 2024, Women Camp <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Arvind ji, >>>> >>>> I am writing to address recent comments and concerns you’ve raised >>>> regarding staff involvement in Wikimedia spaces. It is important to clarify >>>> that there is no policy within the Wikimedia movement that restricts >>>> anyone’s participation based on their employment with any affiliate or the >>>> Wikimedia Foundation until or unless there is a Conflict of Interest. Staff >>>> members, just like any other individuals, have the right to engage with >>>> movement initiatives in their personal capacities. Their involvement, when >>>> not violating any policy, should be treated with all fairness and respect. >>>> >>>> By definition, volunteer work in Wikimedia spaces is open to everyone, >>>> including staff, and is based on the principles of free knowledge and >>>> community participation. Staff members can, and often do, volunteer their >>>> time and efforts outside of their professional roles, contributing >>>> meaningfully to the movement. Volunteering is not limited by employment >>>> status, and it's crucial to understand that participation enriches our >>>> shared goals. >>>> >>>> The ability to organize a conference depends on experience, willingness >>>> and time they can offer to create inclusive and productive spaces for >>>> learning & collaboration. Questioning someone’s involvement based on their >>>> professional background not only undermines their contributions but also >>>> disrespects the collective wisdom of any Conference Organizing Team (COT), >>>> who carefully consider all contributors to ensure the success of an event. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, I must express my deep concern regarding the manner in >>>> which you have raised these issues, particularly targeting a woman in a >>>> public mailing list. Given the persistent gender gap in leadership roles >>>> across Wikimedia spaces, it is disheartening to witness such actions. >>>> Asking >>>> someone to step down under pressure does not necessarily lead to greater >>>> respect—it can actually undermine the spirit of inclusivity and >>>> volunteerism that we all work hard to uphold. >>>> >>>> We are all here to support the same mission, and fostering an >>>> inclusive, supportive environment for everyone—regardless of gender, >>>> professional background, or experience—is essential to achieving that goal. >>>> >>>> I’ll urge the mailing list owners to monitor such personal targets >>>> given the recent recommendations (just 2 days ago) we have received from >>>> the WMF Trust & Safety team.. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Chinu >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:46 PM Neechal Karan <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree with the point that we need to encourage more leadership from >>>>> the community. Minimize the Staff involvement in the community driven >>>>> events. However I don't have any specific comment on any staff members. I >>>>> appreciate their effort on what they do to bring this successful >>>>> conference. Since the topic is in the table, I feel their response will >>>>> help us to understand better on this scenario. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Neechalkaran >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 12 Sept, 2024, 10:19 pm Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Aafi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I will request you to check CIS annual grants from the start and also >>>>>> the activity report. So much money has been taken in the name of >>>>>> Wikisource >>>>>> to do workshop, digitisation, hire resource person, do Wikisource in >>>>>> Education Program and what all. I will hesitate to share the amount >>>>>> someone >>>>>> from CIS should reply along with links and money in rupee not dollars. >>>>>> Community should know this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sunil Abrahim, Vishnu Vardhan both said they want community to take >>>>>> leadership and staff to step back. Is Tanveer Hasan and Pavan Santosh on >>>>>> different floor? After spending so much money on Wikisource, CIS should >>>>>> have made some leaders to do these work. The CIS team would have been so >>>>>> proud of themselves and community would have also come up and said Well >>>>>> Done! CIS could have told the volunteers to take initiatives and we are >>>>>> right behind you for help. Unfortunately nothing like this happened and >>>>>> CIS >>>>>> staff are doing all these work on their own and saying doing it in >>>>>> personal >>>>>> capacity. Which model will you prefer Aafi? >>>>>> >>>>>> Edit counts are not the basis to judge others on scholarship but they >>>>>> are also important to have better experience. Many more volunteer editors >>>>>> have so much edits and they have admin and other access. They should be >>>>>> given a chance. Do you disagree Aafi? 2023 when this discussion happened >>>>>> many volunteers came up but why CIS staff was chosen. I cannot >>>>>> understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> If CIS person steps down today she will not lose respect but gain >>>>>> respect. I am sure about that. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am sorry Aafi if you consider my email to be baseless accusations. >>>>>> I will not reply then. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arvind >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 12 Sept 2024 at 20:22, Aafi <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The Conference Leads did share a call for volunteers for a long >>>>>>> time, but I suspect not many presented themselves to volunteer for >>>>>>> several >>>>>>> organising committees for the Conference. Nitesh is a long time >>>>>>> Wikimedia >>>>>>> contributor who actively contributes to Wiki projects and is also a >>>>>>> visible >>>>>>> face of many volunteer based initiatives. If she comes in her volunteer >>>>>>> capacity to be a part of the Scholarship COT, what issue is there? I >>>>>>> assume >>>>>>> no. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are plenty of Wikimedians who also work for the Wikimedia >>>>>>> Foundation or other organisations, whilst also supporting several >>>>>>> programs >>>>>>> voluntarily. I do not find any misuse of power there. I'd appreciate it >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you could explain yourself rather than making baseless accusations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just an FYI: I'm not a Wikisource contributor and my response >>>>>>> doesn't endorse/approve of any Wikisource Conference COT opinions. This >>>>>>> response is entirely my own observation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards >>>>>>> Aafi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Sept 2024, 10:51 Arvind Menon, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Community Members, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wikisource is having a conference and Nitesh Gill who is CIS-A2K >>>>>>>> staff is on the scholarship committee. After such a big community we >>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>> find any volunteers. Staff are not meant to select community members >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> scholarship. This is a misuse of power. Everything in the name of >>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>> capacity is a misuse of power and community cannot grow like this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arvind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This message has already been shown to Trust&Safety at WMF, Nitesh >>>>>>>> Gill and several Wikisource community members involved with the >>>>>>>> conference. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > WikimediaIndia-l mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
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