Hi Mike, Your preaching to the choir :p I'm not disparaging Wonder in anyway, I'm a very happy user.
I'm just saying the following. Apple may or may not care about WO. But they have to care about the enterprise, it's way too big a market to ignore. Getting back to your chronology, in 2002 Apple was marketing WO but they were not successful. But that was pre i*, pre-Leopard, pre-Vista and they didn't have the same swagger as they do now. So, if they are going to be selling X-Serves, Macs, iPhones etc... to the enterprise why not also sell/package a web application framework? It's not like they have to develop it. Plus they have a Wonderful (no pun intended) community in place to support new users. Either there is something wrong with WO and it's doomed as a product, Apple has another reason or they are waiting to get their marketing strategy right. Of course, all of that is just speculation on my part. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut! Johnny On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: > Realistically, though, would you? Given all the things Apple could spend > their money on, does it really make sense to invest it in WO? I wouldn't ... > I love WO, but there's a HIGHLY questionable value proposition for Apple with > it. One could argue that having a community to hire from is of some value, > but I don't know how often this actually happens vs just hiring good > programmers and training them. The investment of a couple of weeks in > training is way less than a REAL commitment to maintaining a public external > framework (to the level that Apple would like to do this). I would suspect > every dollar spent on iPhone has a vast multiple over the equivalent dollar > spent on WO. > > Regardless, I'm with Anjo (again). Waiting for Apple to do anything is silly. > Either you have problem and you need to solve them or you don't. Personally, > I have problems I need to solve, and waiting for Apple is not a way to get > work done. And I come back to the question I asked the last time this thread > came up. If you had your magic wishing well, what would you wish for WO to do > that it doesn't? Is Apple somehow more magical at programming than the rest > of us? I personally don't think so. > > Step back and look at Apple's WO releases since, honestly, maybe WO 5.2 -- in > 2002 (that year would be in capital, shouting numbers if those existed "@))@" > ). WO 5.2 added WebServices, J2EE, Java Web Start -- a reasonably > substantial release that provided new features the community didn't have > before. If you look at the release notes for ... the next 6 years, I'm just > not feeling it. The entire 5.2.x series is just bug fixes. From a development > standpoint, 5.3 REALLY just added the collections API implementation on NS* > collections, which were pretty broken (and Wonder has fixes for, I might > add). They didn't touch the tools -- just rebuilt them on the new platforms. > There was some experimental work on the Xcode EOModeler, but it wasn't > actually usable. The rest of the 5.3.x line is just bug fixes (which we can > provide, or did already provide, many of). That brings you to 2007 with 5.4, > which added a lot of features, but almost all of the big ones already had > been in Wonder for years. Inline bindings? We had that for 2 years before 5.4 > came out. Ajax? That was adapted from Wonder, and it doesn't provide any > implementations, only some core pieces behind the scenes. Ajax framework was > in Wonder for at least a year (maybe more?) before 5.4 came out. They have > the single file template, which I suspect any of us could add with a couple > days worth of work, but it's hasn't been terribly interesting to me. There > were a bunch of synchronization changes, but mostly those have just caused > endless problems for all of us because of API incompatibilities between 5.3 > and 5.4, and the current tools still use the 5.3 API's, anyway. > Vendor-specific prototypes? Been in Wonder for MANY years. Derby support? > That's in Wonder now, though I have yet to see a compelling case to use it > over the other options anyway. Support for generics? Yep. In Wonder before > them. And we have quite a few fixes to those collections that aren't released > in a public WO version yet. I'm not trying to dog on Apple here, but my point > is that if you're looking for innovation in WebObjects, Wonder is a far > better source than Apple at this point, if for no other reason than WONDER > ACTUALLY GETS OUT RELEASES TO YOU. > > So in my (not so humble :) ) opinion, the best thing you can do to cement a > strong future for WO is to get behind Project Wonder. It's open, it's > actively developed, it has committer base of quite a few people (including > Apple), it has a very substantial user base (including, again, Apple). > Supporting and using Wonder means your future isn't tied to the whims of > Apple's publicly-unknown-and-who-knows-what-they-are-thinking road map. And > it's great if you have your own internal frameworks, but using only your own > internal frameworks means you're funding every dollar of development of those > frameworks yourself. That might be your preference, but it's not mine. I want > a virtual Anjo and Chuck and Q and, yes, even Lachlan :) writing code for me > when I sleep. I didn't even comment on that autolocking thread before Chuck > had a fix for it. That's what it's all about. And, btw, that's a thread on EC > autolocking -- a feature Apple hasn't even ventured to provide to you, which > fixes a "Top 3" (IMO) problem people have with WO -- just .. Fixed. Gone. > Don't think about it (well, unless you're Chuck, but that's Chuck, and he has > a fix for you). > > ms > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 5:03 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: > >> Hi Martin, >> >> I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying I don't understand the logic >> they are using. >> >> Apple has tons of cash. So they can use that cash to buy companies, spend >> it on R & D, invest it or horde it/pay taxes. >> >> Apple doesn't make many major acquisitions. So, if they horde it in the >> bank then it depreciates in value because interest rates are so low and >> inflation is high. Or they can give it to Uncle Sam in the form of taxes. >> >> Why not spend a little bit a money on WO? They are going to lose the money >> anyway. >> >> Johnny >> An AAPL Shareholder >> >> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Martin Perez Barreiro wrote: >> >>> Apple listens to Apple. Im not sure how much they care about WO developers >>> right now, come on! just looking at wwdc talks you can get the feeling wo >>> is not an important thin for Apple right now (at least wo developers >>> outside Apple labs). >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> >>> kind regards, >>> Martin. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Johnny Miller <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> I agree that it's not smart to wait for Apple and I for one can continue >>> using WO by relying on the aid of the Wonder community. >>> >>> But HP and IBM are 100 billion dollar + companies. At some point to grow >>> revenue Apple is going to have to go back into the enterprise. >>> >>> I just don't understand why Apple doesn't treat WO as a loss leader until >>> they are ready to diversify from consumer related products. They could >>> have a great story in a vibrant community with lots of different kinds of >>> apps deployed. >>> >>> Just my 2 cents. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Anjo Krank wrote: >>> >>> > Apple is a (what's it now 20? 30?) billion dollar company. They are (and >>> > should be) driven by what benefits their shareholders. It *may* be that >>> > some push from inside of Apple by some more enthusiastic developers >>> > inside of Apple *may* result in some - er, I can hardly say the word >>> > without a giggle fit - "speedier" release process. >>> > >>> > But frankly, there is ample evidence to the contrary, that no matter how >>> > much prodding, begging or bitching will change the actual results in the >>> > slightest. >>> > >>> > So I'd say that waiting for them to do something is plain stupid. If you >>> > rely on that, you're dead in the water. You just may not know it :) And >>> > btw, I'm "stuck" with 5.3.whatever and so far had no real problem with it. >>> > >>> > Cheers, Anjo >>> > >>> > >>> > Am 24.11.2009 um 22:20 schrieb Gaastra Dennis - WO Lists: >>> > >>> >> This is funny; however, from our experience, Apple does actually listen >>> >> to us, and showing them an "i don't care" attitude will most likely >>> >> result in us being stuck with 5.4.3 & Wonder, and Apple keeping >>> >> WebObjects to themselves, and we'll never be synchronized with the >>> >> latest and greatest Apple versions again, because we think we can all do >>> >> it on our own. Very smart. >>> >> >>> >> With Kind Regards, >>> >> >>> >> Dennis Gaastra, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 2009-11-24, at 12:04 PM, Anjo Krank wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Jesus. Apple will do what they want. Nothing you, I or anybody else >>> >>> says or does will make much of a difference. Nor should we really care, >>> >>> it's not like they did something useful in the last 5 years or so. >>> >>> >>> >>> You sound like they were some sort of rain god. "Let's show we are >>> >>> loyal, or else HE might smite us like the flies we are!" >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, Anjo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 24.11.2009 um 20:36 schrieb Gaastra Dennis - WO Lists: >>> >>> >>> >>>> If we want Apple to release new WebObjects versions, beyond 5.4.3, to >>> >>>> the community, the worst thing we can do is talking about Windows and >>> >>>> Linux. We should be very clear about this: if we expect Apple to do >>> >>>> anything for us in the regard, we should be loyal to Apple by only >>> >>>> developing and deploying on Apple equipment. Otherwise, I am afraid >>> >>>> that 5.4.3 will be the last version we will ever see... >>> >>>> >>> >>>> With Kind Regards, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Dennis Gaastra, >>> >>>> Chief Technology Officer, >>> >>>> WEBAPPZ Systems, Inc. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> This message contains confidential information and is intended only >>> >>>> for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you >>> >>>> should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify >>> >>>> the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by >>> >>>> mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission >>> >>>> cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could >>> >>>> be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, >>> >>>> or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for >>> >>>> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise >>> >>>> as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please >>> >>>> request a hard-copy version. WEBAPPZ Systems, Inc., 726 - 1489 Marine >>> >>>> Drive, West Vancouver, BC, CANADA V7T 1B8, www.webappz.com >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On 2009-11-24, at 10:19 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> 1) The customer sometimes is willing to compromise and give you a >>> >>>>> Linux box ... deployment on Linux is as easy as Mac more-or-less. So, >>> >>>>> if they won't let you use Mac, ask if you can use Linux.... and setup >>> >>>>> CentOS or RHEL on it. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 2) Project Wonder has source for Adaptors. I see IIS adaptor source >>> >>>>> in there. No idea how good it is: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> /Wonder/Utilities/Adaptors/IIS/ >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> HTH, Kieran >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Ralph Scheuer wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> Hello everybody, >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> due to the fact that some of our customers use Windows servers, I >>> >>>>>> would be interested how others deploy their WO apps on Windows these >>> >>>>>> days... >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> The wiki only refers to Apache when it comes to WO 5.4 on Windows >>> >>>>>> and does not mention IIS... >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> However, some customers need specific IIS features like >>> >>>>>> Single-Sign-On via ActiveDirectory or do not want another web server >>> >>>>>> for political reasons. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> How do you deal with that? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Is it still possible to use the old 5.2 adaptors (CGI or ISAPI) with >>> >>>>>> modern IIS versions and WO 5.4? How about 64-bit-ness? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Would it be possible to set up WO 5.2 and just replace all the >>> >>>>>> frameworks with the 5.4 equivalents so that at least the CGI adaptor >>> >>>>>> (WebObjects.exe) from the old version works? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Has Apple ever released the source of the Windows adaptors so that >>> >>>>>> they could be recompiled for 64-bit IIS? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Thanks for your input. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Ralph >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> >>>>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> >>>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> >>>>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> >>>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> >>>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> >>>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects_lists%40webappz.com >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> >>>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> >>>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> >>>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/anjo%40krank.net >>> >>>> >>> >>>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jlmiller%40kahalawai.com >>> > >>> > This email sent to [email protected] >>> >>> Johnny Miller >>> Kahalawai Media Corp >>> http://www.kahalawai.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >>> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >>> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/perezbarreiro%40gmail.com >>> >>> This email sent to [email protected] >>> >> >> Johnny Miller >> Kahalawai Media Corp >> http://www.kahalawai.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. >> Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com >> >> This email sent to [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jlmiller%40kahalawai.com > > This email sent to [email protected] Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com
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