Hello Ryan:
Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally
think that front-end website design and implementation is far more
difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your
efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the
OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.
Please see my other comments inline:
Ryan Foster wrote:
Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial
design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's
public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of
obligation to defend my position. Let me first start off by saying
thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in
general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme. I sometimes
feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented
than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small
amount of front-end discussion is refreshing. I take a huge amount of
pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or
negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience
IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and
carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and
testing of respected organizations and individuals in user experience
and interaction design:
Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was
never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
In regards to the school of thought that all of the important content
should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be required, do
not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has been extensive
research that tends to suggest that this school of thought is
outdated. Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!). See the
following links for support:
Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically,
although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the map
as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI: All of the content writers
and site designers that I work with insist that best practice is to have
the most compelling information above the fold. These people are in the
trenches day-in and day-out and are not selling a service. Just another
data point.
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is again
based on modern web trends and current research. Companies such as
Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, MTV, Ruby on
Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their sites and
applications. Our friends in the community over at Alexander
Interactive have been cited numerous times for the navigation they
developed for ActionEnvelope. I agree that showing the menu on hover
rather than on click would be an enhancement, but I also don't think
that having to click is a bad thing either. Again, see the following
resources:
It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are. Just
because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean they work
in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some menu dropdowns
are not useful. I use them often.
I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a
company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes,
they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns and
not obscured by other site elements.
http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience
is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is. We have developed
several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and
have received very positive feedback. When our clients are happy, I
am happy. You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is
research suggesting that doesn't matter. It may not be better, but
people think that it is:
You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were able
to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A new user
(one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do this. That
is my target audience.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I
appreciate the feedback. The font-size is a little too big. The
padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed back
a bit. I am working on a patch right now that incorporates this
feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from the
themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.
I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
And again, thanks for your efforts.
Ruth
I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to give
the community some insight into my thought process and design
methodologies. I hope this helps the discussion.
Thanks,
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
[email protected]
On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hi Tim:
I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question here.
First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring to?
Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to
use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,
then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz
user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on
their plate just learning how the applications work.
Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something without
siting references. You insult my intelligence and every other reader
on this list by implying that anything concerning recent releases of
OFBiz is "easy".
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[email protected]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to
be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit
today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd
say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off
when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
does not talk to using it on a day to day basis). We've been very
successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
reacting in a really positive way.
There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's just a
reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.
I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who
has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your
own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to go apply first
impressions with that really lame setup.
As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hello Tim:
If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are
way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime
theme has been applied are designed for end-users who may not and
probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not
forget who our audience is here.
If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible
theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not always better.
On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
post my findings.
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[email protected]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /
look and feel. I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back
to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once
everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something different.
If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the
BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -
this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old (and
looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
changes that might not make it so "large"? It should be pretty
easy with this setup.
Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is
still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd leave this
in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations
before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi Hans,
So far,
* it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
zoom out.
* it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create
a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure
it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size
(of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey"
as default
theme.
What do you people think ?
Jacques
PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
thanks!
From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
characters, at
least 5 fit in....
So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps
better.
Regards,
Hans
On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time
as default theme.
Do you use it?
Do you change for another theme ?
Which one fo you prefer?
Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
Thanks
Jacques
--
Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
services for competitive rates
