Hi Ryan:
Not that I need to get in the last word...
I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it is
worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.
I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation,
progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point - which
got lost in the noise - was that building something and then deploying
that "something" without thorough testing is not good. In fact, the
consequences of doing that in this very competitive market, could be
disastrous. First impressions whether we like it or not, are lasting.
And when seemingly simple things don't work as one would expect - for
example on the ecommerce web store OOTB - that is not good.
Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.
Best Regards,
Ruth
Ryan Foster wrote:
Inline...
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
[email protected]
On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hello Ryan:
Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally
think that front-end website design and implementation is far more
difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your
efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the
OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.
No offense taken. Like I said, I was just trying to offer some
additional insight into the discussion.
Please see my other comments inline:
Ryan Foster wrote:
Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial
design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's
public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of
obligation to defend my position. Let me first start off by saying
thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in
general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme. I sometimes
feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented
than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small
amount of front-end discussion is refreshing. I take a huge amount
of pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or
negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience
IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and
carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and
testing of respected organizations and individuals in user
experience and interaction design:
Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was
never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
In regards to the school of thought that all of the important
content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be
required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has
been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of
thought is outdated. Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!).
See the following links for support:
Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically,
although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the
map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI: All of the content
writers and site designers that I work with insist that best practice
is to have the most compelling information above the fold. These
people are in the trenches day-in and day-out and are not selling a
service. Just another data point.
Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am not
disputing this. What I am saying is "There is no fold", and there
hasn't been one for quite some time. This term was ported from
newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium and
technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering this new
media arena. But the internet is not new anymore, and between Rich
Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand television, kiosk
displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen monitors, it is simply
not relevant to modern web design and development anymore. Honestly,
between online websites, news portals, cross-channel aggregation,
bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am not sure that newspapers even use the
term "above the fold" anymore! :)
FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were service
based businesses. I am also currently closing out a 15 hour day of
designing/building websites and writing content for my clients, so I
think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is
again based on modern web trends and current research. Companies
such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC,
MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their
sites and applications. Our friends in the community over at
Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the
navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope. I agree that showing
the menu on hover rather than on click would be an enhancement, but
I also don't think that having to click is a bad thing either.
Again, see the following resources:
It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are.
Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean
they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some
menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a
company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes,
they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns
and not obscured by other site elements.
I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these sites
generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence. But that
is not really the point. You will never make any progress if you just
copy someone else's model.
"Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright that? ;)
Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
"Emulate. Innovate. Test."
There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience
is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is. We have developed
several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and
have received very positive feedback. When our clients are happy, I
am happy. You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is
research suggesting that doesn't matter. It may not be better, but
people think that it is:
You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were
able to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A
new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do
this. That is my target audience.
I think that is where our disconnect is. That might be your target
audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my
employer's target audience. The decision maker in an enterprise is
usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and
intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations
Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100,
1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively use
it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully) millions of
customers will use and return to consistently. They are the ones that
will ultimately drive the support and distribution of OFBiz.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I
appreciate the feedback. The font-size is a little too big. The
padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed
back a bit. I am working on a patch right now that incorporates
this feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from
the themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.
I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
And again, thanks for your efforts.
Ruth
Keep it coming Ruth. I appreciate you taking the time.
I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to
give the community some insight into my thought process and design
methodologies. I hope this helps the discussion.
Thanks,
Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
[email protected]
On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hi Tim:
I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question
here.
First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you
referring to?
Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to
use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,
then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz
user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough
on their plate just learning how the applications work.
Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[email protected]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to
be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit
today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd
say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off
when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
does not talk to using it on a day to day basis). We've been very
successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
reacting in a really positive way.
There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's just a
reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
facelift. I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
everyone else who has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to
the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to
have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
Hello Tim:
If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we
are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who
may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.
Lets not forget who our audience is here.
If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible
theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not always better.
On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
post my findings.
Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
[email protected]
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
http://www.myofbiz.com
Tim Ruppert wrote:
We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /
look and feel. I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it
back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same
problems once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing
something different.
If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the
BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do
- this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old
(and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
changes that might not make it so "large"? It should be pretty
easy with this setup.
Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this
is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd leave
this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales
tool ....
Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi Hans,
So far,
* it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
zoom out.
* it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
create a subtask at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not
sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat
Grey" as default
theme.
What do you people think ?
Jacques
PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
thanks!
From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
characters, at
least 5 fit in....
So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
perhaps better.
Regards,
Hans
On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time
as default theme.
Do you use it?
Do you change for another theme ?
Which one fo you prefer?
Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
Thanks
Jacques
--
Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
services for competitive rates
