This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.
also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes. The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for inclusion. What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want to create themes. I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page template for the browser where the user has turned off features Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have trouble with fonts. The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already found out, some translation cause justification problems My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good learning tools. Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM: > If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them. This theme > has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with. > We do not have all of the problems you mentioned. There's NO reason to > start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design > and fix the issues. > > It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so > please your best to not insult others as well :) Read Foster's email > for where and why we did what we did and go from there. I'm at least as > interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in > OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and > money that's been made by our company. > > Cheers, > Ruppert > -- > Tim Ruppert > HotWax Media > http://www.hotwaxmedia.com > > o:801.649.6594 > f:801.649.6595 > > On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > >> Hi Tim: >> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen >> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the >> project. Please see my comments inline: >> >> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>> Inline >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ruppert >>> >>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Tim: >>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all >>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question >>>> here. >>>> >>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring >>>> to? >>> >>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know >>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective? >>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this >>> project is stale or not. This is why it was developed and it can >>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time. Not >>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on >>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ... >>> >> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines? >> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your >> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this >> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user, >> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so >> well. Please reconsider. > > Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to > more and more people how we could fix it for them. That makes no sense. > >>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to >>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, >>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz >>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on >>>> their plate just learning how the applications work. >>> >>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so >>> that when people want to see the application for the first time, >>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and >>> then forgot to update it :) If you guys want that to be a deployment >>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just >>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen. >>> >> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago) >> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of >> ownership. >> >> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How >> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced" >> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me >> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune. > > No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better received > by all new people. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm > talking about business people who will eventually use the applications. > >>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something >>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every >>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning >>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy". >>> >>> Please Ruth - come on. If you're not sure where the themes are, then >>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives >>> the theme and tinker with it. If I had the references for you in my >>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I >>> declined to send you to the wrong place. Me and the other readers >>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to >>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the >>> release. I think we accomplished that in a big way. If it's not >>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to >>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front). >>> >> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent >> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS >> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database >> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users. > > Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message. > >> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues. >> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that >> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from >> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly >> help out. > > Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the > new standard - not the old one. > >>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking >>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc. >>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that >>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to >>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are >>> messed with in the first place. >>> >> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we >> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the >> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been >> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been >> tested. Its pretty simple. > > Are you insinuating that we do this? I certainly hope not. > >> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the >> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the >> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference here. >> >> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and >> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development, >> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users. >> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as >> well kiss this project good-bye. > > We can agree on that front for sure. I see this from an adoption > standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat > to use OFBiz - I can promise you that. > >> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and >> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of >> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed. >> >> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a >> potential new end-user. > > Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of > sitting back and being a purist. That's what we do and I hope to see > you do the same. What you're doing on the end user spectrum will > undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back doesn't > get the issues resolved. Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over > the system and we're in there fixing them daily .... > >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>> [email protected] >>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the >>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to >>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit >>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd >>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off >>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this >>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis). We've been very >>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are >>>>> reacting in a really positive way. >>>>> >>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime >>>>> theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's just a >>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a >>>>> facelift. I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and >>>>> everyone else who has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to the >>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to >>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup. >>>>> >>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we >>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early >>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Ruppert >>>>> -- >>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>> HotWax Media >>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>> >>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Tim: >>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we >>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the >>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who >>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. >>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt >>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible >>>>>> theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not always better. >>>>>> >>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation >>>>>> covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and >>>>>> post my findings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ruth >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because >>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / >>>>>>> look and feel. I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it >>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems >>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something >>>>>>> different. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it >>>>>>> isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the >>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - >>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old >>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the >>>>>>> beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any >>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"? It should be pretty >>>>>>> easy with this setup. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this >>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd leave >>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own >>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales >>>>>>> tool .... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Hans, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So far, >>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to >>>>>>>> zoom out. >>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and >>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : >>>>>>>> create a subtask at >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure >>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out >>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the >>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat >>>>>>>> Grey" as default >>>>>>>> theme. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you people think ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, >>>>>>>> thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but..... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually >>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 >>>>>>>>> characters, at >>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in.... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is >>>>>>>>> perhaps better. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Hans >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time >>>>>>>>>> as default theme. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do you use it? >>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ? >>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer? >>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz >>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> > -- BJ Freeman http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation http://bjfreeman.elance.com http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro Systems Integrator.
