Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support you own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then you can have it any way you want.
BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM: > This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if > someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme. > > also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things > when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would > be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes. > > The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a > specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for inclusion. > > What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want > to create themes. > > I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions > to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then > server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page > template for the browser where the user has turned off features > > Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have > trouble with fonts. > The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already > found out, some translation cause justification problems > > My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good > learning tools. > > > > Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM: >> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them. This theme >> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with. >> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned. There's NO reason to >> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design >> and fix the issues. >> >> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so >> please your best to not insult others as well :) Read Foster's email >> for where and why we did what we did and go from there. I'm at least as >> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in >> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and >> money that's been made by our company. >> >> Cheers, >> Ruppert >> -- >> Tim Ruppert >> HotWax Media >> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >> >> o:801.649.6594 >> f:801.649.6595 >> >> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >>> Hi Tim: >>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen >>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the >>> project. Please see my comments inline: >>> >>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>> Inline >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ruppert >>>> >>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Tim: >>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all >>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question >>>>> here. >>>>> >>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring >>>>> to? >>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know >>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective? >>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this >>>> project is stale or not. This is why it was developed and it can >>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time. Not >>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on >>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ... >>>> >>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines? >>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your >>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this >>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user, >>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so >>> well. Please reconsider. >> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to >> more and more people how we could fix it for them. That makes no sense. >> >>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to >>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, >>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz >>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on >>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work. >>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so >>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time, >>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and >>>> then forgot to update it :) If you guys want that to be a deployment >>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just >>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen. >>>> >>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago) >>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of >>> ownership. >>> >>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How >>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced" >>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me >>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune. >> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better received >> by all new people. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm >> talking about business people who will eventually use the applications. >> >>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something >>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every >>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning >>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy". >>>> Please Ruth - come on. If you're not sure where the themes are, then >>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives >>>> the theme and tinker with it. If I had the references for you in my >>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I >>>> declined to send you to the wrong place. Me and the other readers >>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to >>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the >>>> release. I think we accomplished that in a big way. If it's not >>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to >>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front). >>>> >>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent >>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS >>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database >>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users. >> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message. >> >>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues. >>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that >>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from >>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly >>> help out. >> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the >> new standard - not the old one. >> >>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking >>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc. >>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that >>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to >>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are >>>> messed with in the first place. >>>> >>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we >>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the >>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been >>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been >>> tested. Its pretty simple. >> Are you insinuating that we do this? I certainly hope not. >> >>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the >>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the >>> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference here. >>> >>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and >>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development, >>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users. >>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as >>> well kiss this project good-bye. >> We can agree on that front for sure. I see this from an adoption >> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat >> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that. >> >>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and >>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of >>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed. >>> >>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a >>> potential new end-user. >> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of >> sitting back and being a purist. That's what we do and I hope to see >> you do the same. What you're doing on the end user spectrum will >> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back doesn't >> get the issues resolved. Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over >> the system and we're in there fixing them daily .... >> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ruth >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the >>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to >>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit >>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd >>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off >>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this >>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis). We've been very >>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are >>>>>> reacting in a really positive way. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime >>>>>> theme. There are no other extra widgets or the like. it's just a >>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a >>>>>> facelift. I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and >>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it. Fix it ... or go back to the >>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to >>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we >>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early >>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>> >>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Tim: >>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we >>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the >>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who >>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. >>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt >>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible >>>>>>> theme should be the way to go. Fancier is not always better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation >>>>>>> covering creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and >>>>>>> post my findings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: >>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote: >>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because >>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / >>>>>>>> look and feel. I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it >>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems >>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something >>>>>>>> different. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it >>>>>>>> isn't wise. FIX the problems that you don't like in the >>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - >>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old >>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the >>>>>>>> beginning. Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any >>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"? It should be pretty >>>>>>>> easy with this setup. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this >>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz. I'd leave >>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own >>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales >>>>>>>> tool .... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Ruppert >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert >>>>>>>> HotWax Media >>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594 >>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Hans, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So far, >>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to >>>>>>>>> zoom out. >>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and >>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : >>>>>>>>> create a subtask at >>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure >>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out >>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the >>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat >>>>>>>>> Grey" as default >>>>>>>>> theme. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What do you people think ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, >>>>>>>>> thanks! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <[email protected] >>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but..... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually >>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 >>>>>>>>>> characters, at >>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is >>>>>>>>>> perhaps better. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Hans >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time >>>>>>>>>>> as default theme. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it? >>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ? >>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer? >>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz >>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > -- BJ Freeman http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation http://bjfreeman.elance.com http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro Systems Integrator.
