Hi, Sebastien,

Le 15/12/2023 à 14:06, Sebastian Moeller a écrit :
Hi Alexandre,


On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:07, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink 
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:


Le 14/12/2023 à 19:51, Nathan Simington via Starlink a écrit :
Hi folks,

(Apologies in advance to non-Americans or anyone who doesn't care about 
American home broadband policy! Please feel free to immediately delete!)

I don't want to get overly political on this mailing list, but my statement on this topic 
is a matter of public record: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-23-105A3.pdf. 
As this item is now closed, there is no risk of any impermissible side-barring ("ex 
partes" that would have to be filed on the record, in regulatory jargon) if anyone 
wants to discuss this.

The FCC is funded through regulatory fees which, traditionally, fell predominantly 
on broadcasters and monopoly-era AT&T. This mechanism, or at least how we 
calculate it, is increasingly inapposite for a world in which so much video and 
voice traffic takes place via unregulated services. That's one reason the agency is 
shrinking even as the communications industry is growing. Another is that many of 
our necessary functions, such as RF emissions enforcement, are on a non-fee basis 
and thus short-term painless to cut (even if that means that we're abandoning 
oversight of a rising noise floor, or of a device world where post-licensure 
quality fade on emissions control is normal business practice.)

I'm on the record as saying that the FCC should reallocate resources and seek 
additional money with the goal of hiring 500 more engineers and field 
enforcement staff. That number is probably too small, but it would be a good 
start ;-) I was horrified to learn recently, while researching my Title II 
statement, that the FCC essentially has no internal experts left on peering and 
transit. How in blazes was this allowed to happen? (I hired one of the handful 
left as my chief of staff, but that just makes her unavailable to the career 
staff, so...)

On this specific issue, I think a reasonable person could look at current 
federal broadband programs and see a significant bias in favor of fiber to the 
home. Someone drawing that conclusion might point, in addition to StarLink's 
situation, to the specific exclusion of unlicensed-frequency fixed wireless 
from the BEAD program, in defiance of the current tech trends. Anyone finding 
bias there might further note that the federal government talks incessantly 
about line speed but never about traffic management or router firmware and 
conclude that technically shallow federal politicians have no better ideas than 
to resort to the same metric that ISPs use in their advertising.

I don't always see eye to eye with TechFreedom, which is why I so appreciated 
their filing on the same NOI that some in this group were involved with filing 
on. Their filing noted that line speed is a misleading and inappropriate proxy 
for customer experience quality, though not in the detail of the engineering 
filers, and also pointed out (among other points) that selling broadband to the 
public on the basis of telehealth and education is belied by the traffic 
numbers, which show that entertainment uses predominate. Not that I have 
anything against entertainment, but the feds haven't been candid (and perhaps 
the public has allowed itself to be deceived as well) about the reality of how 
its enormous fiber infrastructure subsidy commitments will be used in practice.

If we can provide good service to people without the huge lift of a universal 
fiber to the home build, then the United States is headed in the wrong 
direction and will be wasting a lot of public money. And, unlike StarLink, we 
still won't have connected Dave's boat :-)

All best,
Nathan

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 12:49 PM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain 
<nnag...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

    FCC's staff continues to shrink. 1420-or-so employees in 2022,
    1755-or-so in 2012, 1952-or-so in 2004. So about a 25% reduction
    over the last twenty years. There are several good people there
    among the staff, however they also face an increasing number of
    tasks and demands with less resources. Public service depends on
    folks being willing to step up and be of service.

    Also, ultimately it is the decision of the Commissioners. Staff
    can brief the Commissioners and present evidence, the
    Commissioners are there to make the policy decisions. Remember
    Commissioners are Presidentially-appointed, Senate-confirmed which
    selects for certain things in keeping with our Constitution. For
    the staff, this means accepting that politics may supersede even
    the best technical briefing.

    Such is how representative governments work. And if you circle
    back to Plato's The Republic, the conclusion is such is how
    humanity wants it - we don't want a perfectly wise, benevolent,
    philosopher king. Each of us wants compromises - the difference
    being those specific compromises. Plato (through the voice of
    Socrates) also concludes humanity would probably kill a perfectly
    wise, benevolent, philosopher king if we were to ever have one -
    again because despite everyone saying they want this, they really
    only want such a person if that person agrees with them fully. Or
    as Tears for Fears aptly put it: "Everybody Wants to Rule the
    World" = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awoFZaSuko4




    On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:00 AM Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
    <nnag...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

        Thanks, Robert. Exactly what I meant. Therefore I added NN
        list, because Nathan was engaging with us there, and with Dave
        (me and some others, to my knowledge) either directly or via
        his staffers and he really wanted to catch up on tech things
        that are the culprits of Net Neutrality (bufferbloat.)

        So instead of assuming that Nathan Simington and Brendan Carr
        are “bought” as someone did, I can the FCC itself as an entity
        can be understaffed at worse.

        But still, I appreciate efforts to learn about what’s going in
        here and getting it right.

        All the best,

        Frank
        Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

        https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
        Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
        iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
        Skype: casioa5302ca
        frantisek.bor...@gmail.com


        On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 3:46 AM, Robert McMahon
        <rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

            I think this common in that appointment of commissioners
            go through a political process. The FCC has a technology
            group, too. When I worked with them about 8 years ago,
            they had skilled researchers on staff and a highly skilled
            director. They asked good questions about engineering
            decisions, like what is limiting the number of mimo
            streams on devices.

            Their physical facility is a bit dated, and they don't get
            stock grants. I respect the engineers I worked with for
            what they did.

            Bob
            On Dec 13, 2023, at 2:38 PM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
            <nnag...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

                I would love for Nathan to be here with us, and
                comment on that :-) so I will add NN list as well.


                All the best,

                Frank
                Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

                https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
                Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
                iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
                Skype: casioa5302ca
                frantisek.bor...@gmail.com


                On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 at 11:21 PM, Richard Roy
                <dickroy3...@comcast.net> wrote:

                    
------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    *From:*Starlink
                    [mailto:starlink-boun...@lists.bufferbloat.net]
                    *On Behalf Of *Frantisek Borsik via Starlink
                    *Sent:* Wednesday, December 13, 2023 1:26 PM
                    *To:* Dave Taht via Starlink
                    *Subject:* [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of
                    Starlink’s RDOF Application

                    “*Elon Musk*’s Starlink was not the only major
                    company to inflate its capabilities
                    
<https://broadbandbreakfast.com/2021/04/rdof-reverse-auction-criticized-google-makes-pandemic-gains-california-broadband-access-for-k-12/>
 in
                    RDOF bids. Nearly 100 bidders have defaulted since
                    the auction, leaving in limbo an estimated $2.8
                    billion
                    
<https://broadbandbreakfast.com/2023/06/what-happens-to-the-estimated-2-8-billion-in-rdof-defaults/>
 of
                    the $9.2 billion originally awarded.

                    The FCCupheld another denial
                    
<https://broadbandbreakfast.com/2023/12/fcc-proposes-22-million-fine-against-ltd-over-rdof/>on
                    Monday in the case of LTD Broadband, which
                    appealed the commission’s finding that it could
                    not reasonably serve the more than 500,000
                    locations to which it had committed. The
                    commission also hit LTD with a $21.7 million fine
                    for its default.

                    The commission’s two Republicans dissented to
                    Starlink’s denial, claiming they saw a path for
                    the company to improve its speeds before the first
                    deployment deadline in 2025.”

                    */[RR] The reason two lawyers “saw a path” is
                    because they were bribed/conned into to see it. In
                    my nearly 50years of experience dealing with the
                    FCC, extremely rarely are the people at the top in
                    the commission tech savvy.  In general, they have
                    NO CLUE when it comes to technology … period! /**/JJ/*

                    
https://broadbandbreakfast.com/2023/12/fcc-upholds-denial-of-starlinks-rdof-application/




                    All the best,

                    Frank
                    Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

                    https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
                    Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
                    iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
                    Skype: casioa5302ca
                    frantisek.bor...@gmail.com

                
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain

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--
Nathan Simington
cell: 305-793-6899

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For non-US country (France).  The issue here about the fiber deployment is the 
too numerous disconnections, because they keep adding new connections, by third 
parties contracted by the real operators (its' not the operators who install).  
In a growing tele-work era that impacts a lot the economy.

That continuous disconnection is a growing issue since some months if not years 
now.  It is a public matter, with action from local regulatory body (ARCEP)  
imposed on operators.

The reason of fiber disconnection is, I suspect, the 'tangled fiber' - they 
dont really know which fiber belongs to whom.  When they install a new fiber, 
they often impact, or outright disconnect, an existing fiber.  Re-installing 
takes time.

(this 'tangled wires' is not particular to just fiber, it can be witnessed in 
other cables for public use;)

On the positive side, the fiber installations they make (I saw it here) are 
somehow future proof.  The bring not just one fiber, but 4 or 5 to a same 
subscriber ; they light only one, equalling 1gbit/s.  It means that they could 
scale it up later to 4 or 5 gbit/s, without additional installation.  At the 
current rate of growth, it might mean 10 years, if it does not accelerate.

Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satcom such as 
starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to overcome the 'tangled 
fiber' problem.
Today er can push to hundreds of Gbps over a single strand of fiber,

Thanks, I did not know that.

I would like to clarify.

I am not sure what do you mean by 'strand'?  I know that at home there is a black 5mm-diameter cable which contains 4 or 5 transparent hair-like fibers; each is maybe 1mm or less in diameter.  Some people call a fiber that 5mm black cable, or call 'fiber' just one of these hairs.  Each of these hair-like fiber can be cut but before connecting it to another hair it must be aligned by a special handheld machine; it appears to me to be an electronic microscope.  In that way the fiber can be extended with least loss, rather than IP routing.

Is a 'strand' that 'hair'?

I suspect that it is that hair-like fiber that can carry 1gbit/s, because that's what I get at home.

It can also be, that it is on that same hair-like fiber that it can be pushed even higher than 1gbit/s (you say hundreds of Gbps, and Gert said Fiber7.ch delivers 25 gbit/s; a little bit like on copper lines they went from 2.4kbit/s up to 20mbit/s).  Or maybe the fiber hundreds of gbit/s can be obtained from multiple such hairs, or maybe even multiple 5mm black cables.

I also heard of 'hollow' fibers talked about in the sat-int email list at ietf.  I never saw it in practice but many people talk about it and its potential.

From another analsys I concluded that by year 2031 the optical lines (fiber) might feature up to 1 petabit/s. (from a presentation titled 'optical cables roadmap' of January 2023).

  that is completely unrealistic to match from space.

Well, indeed it might appear so.  One might hardly think of an individual wireless radio link to an end user at 1 petabit/s in year 2031 from a constellation of sats.

But, I would like to clarify.

One is the electronics advancements, leading to transistors working ok at hundreds of GHz spectrum, or even more.  This translates in these channel widths in the order of tens of GHz at this 140GHz range.

Another clarification is that of access: the fiber used to access (end user link) should be compared to the end user links of sats. The fiber used for 'metro'(politan) links should be compared to sat-to-sat links.  The year should be specified.

The evolution of power of computers and their energy efficiency (onboard sats) as well as of the efficiency of energy sources, should be considered as well.

Given that, I think it can still be imagined that a satcom access link to be required to deliver same fiber access link bandwidth at a same year.  Maybe that year is not in the immediate.

  If the problem is wiring and cable organisation, that seems considerably 
easier and economic to fix than pushing all traffic via satellites.

It is a good consideration.

I think the wiring is not as easy to fix.  There are many organisational problems.  Even a regulator cant impose that fixing, it does not work.  They gave us now an URL to tell the regulator whenever we have another fiber disconnection (click on an URL when no connection, hmm...).  I dont bother calling the regulator.  I do bother calling the ISP to fix it, once again.  I dont know for how long will I still bother calling them about this.

I would say that it is as easy to fix these fiber wires as it is easy to fix the decomissioning of sats, or the organisation of space overall.

  Don't get me wrong networking via LEO satellites is pretty cool and in some 
situations extremely valuable, but not a reasonable alternative for a FTTH 
network for most cases.

I do agree in large part.  It is common sense.

It might be that my views wont happen.  It's just forecasting.

Alex


Regards
        Sebastian


Alex

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