sent from a phone
> Il giorno 27 ott 2016, alle ore 01:24, Dave F
> ha scritto:
>
> Not true. It makes sense wherever you are. Official:name allows a rendering
> of official names of that country & individual 'names:*=' allows rendering
> for specific languages.
+1 (it's actually "officia
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>
> The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
> or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
> to it and we'd end up with most of all existing languages spoken "de fac
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 20:09, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>
> This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
> well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
> reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of
This is kind of straying, but 'dependent nations' are a case that is not
well handled at all. There are a number of cases (e.g. most Native American
reservations) where all parties agree on the boundaries - at least of the
current state of control, if not the 'rightful' borders, but most
emphatical
On 06-Nov-16 03:49 AM, Aun Johnsen wrote:
On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
Dave F wrote:
What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
2016-11-05 17:49 GMT+01:00 Aun Johnsen :
> Some municipalities have a significant Samii population speaking their
> Samii dialect,
The defacto-languages-tag would likely need some threshold to make sense,
or any 2 strangers living temporary in an area would add another language
to it and we'd e
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 14:37, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>
> Dave F wrote:
>> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
>
> Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
> and examples.
>
> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
>> An
2016-11-05 17:29 GMT+01:00 Richard Welty :
> (it also
> makes admin boundaries nasty - are they separate nations or aren't they?)
>
they're likely not
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794325844751765504
https://twitter.com/ziyatong/status/794280881418620928
___
On 11/5/16 10:58 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages"
> can be set on sub-country level as well (many states have defined
> English as their official language).
> It could also be argued that English is the defacto official language
2016-11-05 14:14 GMT+01:00 althio :
> > Although the United States currently has no official language, it is
> largely monolingual with English being the de facto national language.
interesting case, because it is an example that "official languages" can be
set on sub-country level as well (man
Dave F wrote:
> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
Martin beat me to it, but let me add links for reference, definition
and examples.
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_language
> An official language is a language that is given a special legal status [...]
> the term
2016-11-05 12:46 GMT+01:00 Dave F :
> What's the difference between 'de facto' & official?
"official name" can have several meanings, but is generally referring to
text on dead tree. It can be found in laws/constitutions (typically in the
first or an early paragraph), treaties, can be released
On 04/11/2016 10:30, althio wrote:
Hi Sven and list,
Sven Geggus wrote:
What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official
langages.
I don't consider it valid.
I prefer the on-the-ground rule, de facto languages, choice by local community.
What's the difference betwee
Hi Sven and list,
Sven Geggus wrote:
> What I consider valid would be the countires name in all of its official
> langages.
I don't consider it valid.
I prefer the on-the-ground rule, de facto languages, choice by local community.
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into o
Hi Dave,
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>> I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or
>> on-the-ground etc.
+1
Dave F wrote:
> Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?
>
> 'official' names appears the correct way to proceed
-1
>
> Ideally,
On 28/10/2016 10:51, Sven Geggus wrote:
There might be another option. Given a hstore database or wikidata
column it
would be very easy to build a query_wikidata psql function which will query
wikidata like this:
select query_wikidata(tags->'wikidata') from planet_osm_point where ...;
This wou
Andy Townsend wrote:
> Straying from the point slightly, but what would be really, really nice
> would be a worked example of a way of obtaining wikidata information
> as part of map data processing
There might be another option. Given a hstore database or wikidata column it
would be very easy t
ng to both import and update osm
data).
Cheers,
Andy
Original Message
From: Andy Mabbett
Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2016 12:13
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names
On 26 October 201
On 26 October 2016 at 23:23, David Bannon wrote:
> As has been suggested, a database of names in every conceivable language
> would be a ideal, then a renderer can deliver a map readable in an
> appropriate language. That does sound like wikidata
Indeed.
As a matter of interest, how many c
On 26/10/2016 19:50, Simon Poole wrote:
@andy
btw the whole is about making easier to express local preference, not
harder.
... which is great, and was exactly what I was worried about. However it
wasn't the impression that I got from e.g. the comment "the french name
has to go" upthread -
David Bannon wrote:
> As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand
> some of the global issues around at present. But even now, many of the
> place names are rendered in local language, quite unreadable to me.
This is true for any westerner. Have a look at the talk I
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 22:32, Simon Poole ha
> scritto:
>
> But nobody was discussing removing minority and similar status
> language name:xx variants and further they don't normally get included
> in the "name" tag as is. Difficult to see why you believe the
On 26/10/2016 22:36, Warin wrote:
On 26-Oct-16 07:32 PM, Sven Geggus wrote:
I hope we agree, that changing the name tag in a way that it appears
more
readable for westerners on the standard map is not a good idea.
I agree, but it works both ways ... where a countries primary language
is E
On 26/10/2016 20:56, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
if we go with "official" we will always be on the side of the
powerful, and we will completely ignore other aspects. Take the Basque
area as example, it is not long ago, that only French and Spanish
(according to the side you are looking at) we
On 26/10/2016 23:23, David Bannon wrote:
Sven, your approach makes sense assuming people only look at maps of
their own country.
Not true. It makes sense wherever you are. Official:name allows a
rendering of official names of that country & individual 'names:*='
allows rendering for specifi
For names of countries, I'd suggest that they should be in whatever the
local mappers to a country consider the predominant language to be. For
users in other locales, presumably we have active enough English-speaking,
German-speaking, and so on communities that name:en, name:de, etc. would be
popu
Sven, your approach makes sense assuming people only look at maps of
their own country. Yes, I agree its respectful to people living in a non
english speaking country but really does not address a much larger problem.
As a native English speaker, I often turn to OSM to help me understand
some
On 27-Oct-16 06:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
sent from a phone
Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 16:52, Dave F
mailto:davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>> ha
scritto:
Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?
I don't think so, at least not where Sven wants to ch
On 26-Oct-16 07:32 PM, Sven Geggus wrote:
Colin Smale wrote:
Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
the contents of name and name:xx tags)?
Both. As I consider adding an english name in standard name tag as "tagging
for the renderer" it is _not_ off-topic here.
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 16:52, Dave F
> ha scritto:
>
> Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?
I don't think so, at least not where Sven wants to change it.
>
> 'official' names appears the correct way to proceed & like others ha
Am 26.10.2016 um 21:56 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
.. a lot of things that are likely right
But nobody was discussing removing minority and similar status
language name:xx variants and further they don't normally get included
in the "name" tag as is. Difficult to see why you believe
preferred?
Which would nicely cover the case of India Andy was referring to. @andy
btw the whole is about making easier to express local preference, not
harder.
Am 26.10.2016 um 14:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 10:38, Sven Geggus
>>
On Tuesday 25 October 2016 17:02:05 Sven Geggus wrote:
> Hello,
>
> in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in German
> with local name in parenthesis.
>
> This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
> Thailand (ประเทศไทย)
>
> or (more readable
On 26/10/2016 15:12, Sven Geggus wrote:
Why do you think that I would want to change the current english tag there?
As I already wrote in my other Mail:
All I want to get rid of is english names in countries where english is not
an official or otherwise important langage and the suspicion comes
On 26/10/2016 13:34, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or
on-the-ground etc.
Isn't that what we have atm & where much of the ambiguity stems from?
'official' names appears the correct way to proceed & like others have
suggested, ignore
Andy Townsend wrote:
> OK - another googly* for you - what do you think should be in the "name"
> tag for India**?
Why do you think that I would want to change the current english tag there?
As I already wrote in my other Mail:
All I want to get rid of is english names in countries where engli
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 10:38, Sven Geggus
> ha scritto:
>
> having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.
I'd prefer avoiding the word "official", in favor of eg default or
on-the-ground etc.
Cheers,
Martin
___
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 26 ott 2016, alle ore 02:44, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> ha
> scritto:
>
> Would any transcription be placed into name:la=* (la is the language code for
> Latin)?
name:la is in use for latin names, it should not be misused for transcriptions
cheers,
Martin
On 26/10/2016 10:04, Sven Geggus wrote:
My intention is to remove english names in the generic "name" tag
in countries where english is neither an official nor otherwise
important langage to the country in question.
OK - another googly* for you - what do you think should be in the "name"
tag f
On 26/10/2016 09:48, Sven Geggus wrote:
However following this discussion I came to the conclusion that it would
probably be a good idea to invent an official_language tag as "name" seems to
be a moving target by its very nature.
An "official_language" tag is certainly something that you can ad
Hello,
looks like some people did not understand what I intend to do.
My intention is to remove english names in the generic "name" tag
in countries where english is neither an official nor otherwise
important langage to the country in question. I'm well aware of the
political impact of naming in
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would any transcription be placed into name:la=* (la is the language code
> for Latin)?
The place for transcriptions is name:rm_XX which XX beeing somethiong like
jp or kr.
All I want to achieve is to get more consistency inte the generic name tag.
I have n
Kevin Kenny wrote:
> Some problems don't have good solutions.
The longer I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion, that
having an official langage tag as Simon suggested might be the ways to go.
This way producers of maps can avoid using "name" at all.
Sven
--
"Thinking of using
Colin Smale wrote:
> Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
> the contents of name and name:xx tags)?
Both. As I consider adding an english name in standard name tag as "tagging
for the renderer" it is _not_ off-topic here.
I hope we agree, that changing the name
On 26-Oct-16 08:52 AM, Michael Reichert wrote:
Hi Warin,
Am 25.10.2016 um 23:32 schrieb Warin:
? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!
No, he doesn't.
He just proposes to remove the English name from the name=* tag in
countries where English is neither an o
Are you talking about the "default map", or the underlying data (i.e.
the contents of name and name:xx tags)? This is the wrong place to
discuss rendering of the default map, and I thought this thread was
about the contents of the name tag. It is probably not a good idea to
discuss rendering choice
Hi Warin,
Am 25.10.2016 um 23:32 schrieb Warin:
> ? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!
No, he doesn't.
He just proposes to remove the English name from the name=* tag in
countries where English is neither an official language nor a common
(but non-official)
On 2016-10-25 23:32, Warin wrote:
> ? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!
>
> The entered tags should be left in the data base.
If they are considered to be in agreement with the consensus view as to
their contents.
> How they are used (rendered) is your i
On 26-Oct-16 02:02 AM, Sven Geggus wrote:
So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official langages
of
the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
Any objectives?
? You are not proposing removing all the English names from the data base?!
The entere
On 25.10.2016 21:47, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> It gets even more complicated in places of disputed sovereignty, where
> the choice of name makes a political statement and speech is not as free
> as it usually is in the West. In the PRC, it would actually be unlawful
> to put the name 中華民國 (or 中华民国) on
It gets even more complicated in places of disputed sovereignty, where the
choice of name makes a political statement and speech is not as free as it
usually is in the West. In the PRC, it would actually be unlawful to put
the name 中華民國 (or 中华民国) on a map, while in Taiwan, it might be lawful to
put
imited enough to make that approach workable here perhaps?
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> Original Message
> From: Sven Geggus
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:00
> Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names
>
&g
As an inhabitant of one the countries mentioned with multiple official
languages may I quickly chip in: our previous solution was to simply
leave the name tag empty given that stuffing the 4 official language
variants in to the name tags was rather unwieldy and even so none of
them are actually th
On 10/25/16 2:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus
>> ha scritto:
>>
>> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
>> langages of
>> the respective countries only and to remove all english names
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus
> ha scritto:
>
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
btw, this is not limited to country names, the same
sent from a phone
> Il giorno 25 ott 2016, alle ore 17:02, Sven Geggus
> ha scritto:
>
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
how are you going to determine the official language
penstreetmap.org
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of Country Names
Andy Townsend wrote:
> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata.
Thus one would need an additional external database to render a proper map!
I don't
Andy Townsend wrote:
> As has already been said this _ought_ to be a job for wikidata.
Thus one would need an additional external database to render a proper map!
I don't think that this is the way to go in such a simple case.
Frankly I don't care that much about the proper name tag itself, but
think of a
workaround to that it'd be great to share) but the number of countries is
limited enough to make that approach workable here perhaps?
Cheers,
Andy
Original Message
From: Sven Geggus
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2016 19:00
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subjec
Chris Hill wrote:
> How would you propose making this change?
I think we should come up whith a common sense rule what name should usually
contain (hence this discussion) and thus the tagging can be changed by
mappers accordingly.
Currently the state is inconsistent (see Egypt vs. Thailand exam
Stefano wrote:
> If you'd want the name only in official languageS the problem will arise in
> countries with more than one (and equally) official language.
Not really, I do not consider rendering something like this a bad idea:
Algerien (ⵍⵣⵣⴰⵢⴻⵔ الجزائر)
Kurrently we have "Algerien (Algérie ⵍ
2016-10-25 17:02 GMT+02:00 Sven Geggus :
>
> So I propose a correction of all country names to names into official
> langages of
> the respective countries only and to remove all english names.
>
If you'd want the name only in official languageS the problem will arise in
countries with more than
How would you propose making this change?
Cheers, Chris (chillly)
On 25 October 2016 16:02:05 BST, Sven Geggus
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in
>German
>with local name in parenthesis.
>
>This works fine for a lot of countries. An example woul
Hello,
in our localized German map style we try to render Country names in German
with local name in parenthesis.
This works fine for a lot of countries. An example would be Thailand:
Thailand (ประเทศไทย)
or (more readable for westerners) France:
Frankreich (France)
Unfortunately there are some
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