Double top tubes seem fairly common here in Singapore. I've see quite
a few. Many are old and made by Raleigh. They all seem to have seen
years of use. People just ride them to get where they are going.
Rivendell may have a more world view of bikes. I like the way they
look and seem to take a be
> Yeah I think I am going to bypass this one but I do like the design
> and the Pletscher trap.
Tubus sells an optional trap for their racks. Same concept,
infinitely more robust. I have one on my commuter. Comes in handy
all the time.
On Apr 25, 9:31 pm, Johnny Alien wrote:
> Yeah I think I
> It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells
> frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you
> need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach.
Agreed.
If you've got the long arms, then a slightly shorter stem (Nitto Dirt
Drop)
Riv frames have in the past typically had shorter TT's. I've read many
complaints about this. It's good they've made some longer ones now.
They have sufficient variety in frames to fit about anyone.
Longer TT's are perfect for using Albatross bars and such. To me a
bike is better balanced with a
I use Roger Musson: The Professional Guide to Wheel Building:
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
I have built one rear wheel, which still works fine after around 2400
km. And a few other wheels for my next bike I look forward to test
when I decide on a frame ;-)
The book is really,
Jack Browns get a shout out in this article urging roadies to hit the
dirt:
http://www.elevationoutdoors.com/index.php/sick-of-traffic-hit-the-dirt-on-your-road-bike/
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Need advice. I finally put together my Atlantis and have been riding
back and forth to work 16 miles RT for the past four weeks without
issue and happily shifting very well. I am really enjoying fully using
a useful triple. Bad news riding in this morning. The chain came off
twice on both sides of
That guy has the right idea.
--mike
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> The FD is the standard inexpensive Campy Mirage triple that Riv sells.
> Should I replace the derailer?
In my experience, this is one of the best FDs made.
This sounds like a set up issue, not product. Without seeing it, hard
to imagine what it is.
On May 5, 10:35 am, Mitch Browne wrote:
> N
I'd sure like to see a photo of those reversed Alba bars. Do you have any? Or
a link? Are you using thumb shifters?
From: Ginz
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 7:17:34 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Diagonapillar blueprints revealed
> It seems to me
Is the chain length right?
From: Mitch Browne
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 10:35:42 AM
Subject: [RBW] Atlantis FD Chain Problem - Sudden
Need advice. I finally put together my Atlantis and have been riding
back and forth to work 16 miles RT for
> Is the chain length right?
Come to think of it, the symptoms match.
On May 5, 11:07 am, Bruce wrote:
> Is the chain length right?
>
>
> From: Mitch Browne
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 10:35:42 AM
> Subject: [RBW] Atlantis FD Chain Problem -
Bruce, I have a Shimano HG-61 12-36T cassette which is supposedly
beyond the official blessing of Shimano for my long cage XT RD but
blessed by Riv. I doubt I'll ever use the 36 but it's on there. I
sized the new chain (SRAM 9xx) with the conventional approach and
didn't remove any links because it
Mitch:
You probably haven't damaged the FD; they're pretty rugged. Check
your limit screws and take a look at Sheldon's info on chain length &
set-up. With a long cage RD, I never found chain length to be
critical but it shifts better if it's reasonably close. I've dropped
the chain off the gra
This seems like a great deal. Waterford frame (double top tube no
less), Taiwan fork for $1250! They must have a really good
relationship with waterford. I am surprised the price is so low, does
the fork require that much work?? I am sure the double top tuber will
look great.
On May 3, 9:01 pm
I would think that with a new set up re-tensioning the cables would be
a first step, and I don't think it could hurt to tighten the set
screws a quarter turn and see if it still shifts successfully. The
screws could certainly have moved, especially bouncing around on bad,
urban roads. I certainly
"Top Ten Names for the next Rivendell Bike"
10. Travelino
9. Henri Torres
8. Vagabondo
7. Hugonaut
6. Velocipes
5. Navigador
4. Luis Rotundus
3. F. Murray Abraham
2. Uniped (lugged steel unicycle, made for touring)
1. Retro Grouchier
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Me too. I can't think of any reason to put a double top tube on a
road bike, and even on a mt. bike it is overkill for all but the most
extreme users. I wouldn't consider buying a bike with a double top
tube. How many failures has Grant experienced with the top tubes on
the Atlantis - Rambouille
I seriously doubt that the derailer is damaged. If you managed to dump
the chain on both sides of the crankset on one ride, I also suspect
setup issues. Double check your chain length first, then look at the
setup of your front derailer. The front mech is a pretty simple
device, but the setup gets
Great shout out. My experience with the JBs has garnered similar
praise. They're great on or off road. Love the Hampsten SB as well.
Before I got my Riv I was seriously eyeballing that bike. They really
are nice.
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O
> Me too. I can't think of any reason to put a double top tube on a
> road bike,
How about they look so darn cool?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/retrotec-inglis-cycles/4561446951/
(for the record, while I really like curved double top tubes, I am not
sold on the straight).
On May 5, 1:29 pm, Mi
Daddy Claxton
LA Freeway
Manila John
Mongo Santamaria
On May 5, 11:20 am, Bridgestone wrote:
> "Top Ten Names for the next Rivendell Bike"
>
> 10. Travelino
>
> 9. Henri Torres
>
> 8. Vagabondo
>
> 7. Hugonaut
>
> 6. Velocipes
>
> 5. Navigador
>
> 4. Luis Rotundus
>
> 3. F. Murray Abraham
>
>
Superfluous Tuboleo
> From: reynoldslugs
> Reply-To:
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Top Ten Names for the next Rivendell Bike
>
> Daddy Claxton
>
> LA Freeway
>
> Manila John
>
> Mongo Santamaria
>
> On May 5, 11:20 am, Bridgestone
Abe Vigoda
Archie
Dick Van Patton
Maude (women specific Geo)
Alan Hale
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Randommeur.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:55, Mike wrote:
> Abe Vigoda
>
> Archie
>
> Dick Van Patton
>
> Maude (women specific Geo)
>
> Alan Hale
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw
a Gunnar with custom curved blade Waterford fork is $1150.
Interesting price points both companies are juggling here. It all
sounds good to me.
delete the extra top tube and lower the price $100. Then you got the
lovely lugged, sloping top tube, steel forked, American made (mostly)
$1000 beaut.
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 12:54 -0700, Dustin Sharp wrote:
> Superfluous Tuboleo
Clearly, that's going to be one of the double top tube models.
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On May 5, 3:54 pm, Dustin Sharp wrote:
> Superfluous Tuboleo
perfect. it really rolls of the tongue nicely. tough to fit on a
downtube, but would look great on . .. well, a superfluous top tube.
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Abiyoyo
Inigo Montoya
Loch Leven
Border Reiver
Carnomore
On May 5, 12:20 pm, Bridgestone wrote:
> "Top Ten Names for the next Rivendell Bike"
>
> 10. Travelino
>
> 9. Henri Torres
>
> 8. Vagabondo
>
> 7. Hugonaut
>
> 6. Velocipes
>
> 5. Navigador
>
> 4. Luis Rotundus
>
> 3. F. Murray Abraham
Does it really matter? outside of the fact that one is MUSA and the
other is not, is there any real tangible difference? Is the Waterford
one better? better quality? better construction? better riding? longer
lasting? better... something? or are we just talking about ideas and
ideals? Would you act
The 2TT has almost nothing to do with strength and almost everything
to do with stiffness under cargo load.
A campeur didn't get extra tubes because Randonneurs were breaking
their frames:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bicigirl/4037516334/
A stiffer frame just responds to load better. My 56 Hill
> other is not, is there any real tangible difference? Is the Waterford
> one better? better quality? better construction? better riding? longer
> lasting? better... something? or are we just talking about ideas and
> ideals?
Waterford has been making highly regarded bikes for quite some time
now.
On May 5, 12:55 pm, Mike wrote:
>
> Archie
>
and the matching Mixtes, Betty and Veronica (Taiwan)
the Waterford versions are Charlotte and Emily
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On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 14:23 -0700, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > other is not, is there any real tangible difference? Is the Waterford
> > one better? better quality? better construction? better riding? longer
> > lasting? better... something? or are we just talking about ideas and
> > ideals?
>
> Water
I duuno. The fat Ti tubes on a small frame just don't do it for me.
The bike purpose... totally right on.
Just don't know how big a market is out there for these bikes. Most of
the guys I work with who ride still think Carbon tubes and skinny
tires is nirvanna. I'm workin' on them though.
Best th
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 14:22 -0700, William wrote:
> The 2TT has almost nothing to do with strength and almost everything
> to do with stiffness under cargo load.
>
> A campeur didn't get extra tubes because Randonneurs were breaking
> their frames:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bicigirl/403751
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 14:44 -0700, Michael_S wrote:
> I duuno. The fat Ti tubes on a small frame just don't do it for me.
> The bike purpose... totally right on.
> Just don't know how big a market is out there for these bikes. Most of
> the guys I work with who ride still think Carbon tubes and ski
> It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells
> frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you
> need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach.
UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso.
The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about
Will agree with Steve here. Have had my 56cm Sam Hillborne loaded up
with 25 plus pounds of gear in panniers and rear rack and have had no
noticable issues with frame flexiness. Even a loaded Carradice Nelson
Longflap doesn't seem to change the handling. Other than weight shift
of where the load
> Most likely, highly regarded bikes you never heard of, or might have
> heard of under another name.
Could well be. But if it's my money, I am going with what I know and
trust. I know and trust Waterford. If I never heard of something, no
matter how good it might be, it is hard for me to trust
> That being said, I personally like the look of double top tubes on the
> larger Bombadil.
Yes.
Big bikes without the double tube probably ride alright but look,
well, odd:
http://oswaldcycleworks.com/mcoswhole.jpg
On May 5, 4:56 pm, EricP wrote:
> Will agree with Steve here. Have had my 56c
All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help
with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the
neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play.
So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't
willing to adopt a higher bar
I think I would be compelled to buy just about any frame Riv made if it were
called Inigo Montoya. Even if it had a silly double top tube.
> From: "Darin G."
> Reply-To:
> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Top Ten Names for the next Rivendel
Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to
stay away from impractical race standards?
On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas wrote:
> All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help
> with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the
> neut
Ditto.
Most of my miles these days go on a 54.5 cm Road, with a TT of, well, 54.5. My
pbh is only 78.4 (I run 650B wheels on it so I can stand over the bike at
traffic stops) but it is very comfy with Nitto grand randonneur drops on it.
The largest "normal manufacurer's" frame I could ride woul
So, for example, if there were an endless stream on the meaning of
"trail" or "planing," you could say,
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
means."
On May 5, 3:36 pm, Dustin Sharp wrote:
> I think I would be compelled to buy just about any frame Riv made if it we
I suppose one person's "impractical race standards" are another's
comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I
felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too
high.
You can disparage that as following "impractical race standards" all
you want, but the
On a related note, simply "Mongo" would have worked for the
Hunquapiller. Think: "Blazing Saddles."
On May 5, 12:22 pm, reynoldslugs wrote:
> Daddy Claxton
>
> LA Freeway
>
> Manila John
>
> Mongo Santamaria
>
> On May 5, 11:20 am, Bridgestone wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Top Ten Names for the next Rivende
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 15:04 -0700, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > Most likely, highly regarded bikes you never heard of, or might have
> > heard of under another name.
>
> Could well be. But if it's my money, I am going with what I know and
> trust. I know and trust Waterford. If I never heard of some
Eric,Steve
I clumsily overstated the front triangle flex of my Sam. It's not a
problem. It's also not a swinging unsupported saddlebag, but that
doesn't particularly matter.
I should have simply posted that I think Grant designed in the 2TT
option to stiffen the front triangle of the larger Sam
It would likely look really similar to a 1993 XO-3
Like this:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1993/pages/33.htm
or this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230468515481&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
On May 5, 8:48 am, Ray Shine wrote:
> I'd sure like to see a photo of thos
i am not a loaded tourer. Aesthetically, given a choice, I'd choose
that "mixte" approach to stiffening way before the "current" Riv
approach to double top tubes.
On May 5, 2:22 pm, William wrote:
> The 2TT has almost nothing to do with strength and almost everything
> to do with stiffness under
> > Archie
>
> and the matching Mixtes, Betty and Veronica
I was thinking Archie Bunker. I guess you could call the matching
mixte The Dingbat.
I remember in the Hilsen intro Grant mentioned contemplating naming
the it after Ebb on Green Acres.
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Indeed, page 20 of RR41 is where the Top Tube Ruse article is:
http://www.rivbike.com/assets/payloads/75/original_RR41_web.pdf
On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen wrote:
> > It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells
> > frames are not designed for drop bars. With the
Or "Meathead."
On May 5, 4:59 pm, Mike wrote:
> > > Archie
>
> > and the matching Mixtes, Betty and Veronica
>
> I was thinking Archie Bunker. I guess you could call the matching
> mixte The Dingbat.
>
> I remember in the Hilsen intro Grant mentioned contemplating naming
> the it after Ebb on Gre
There are definitely several ways to design a bike that is 'stiff
enough' for the application. I'm a fan of that long mixte look also,
but I like the 2TT look, too. For whatever reason, the one that I
visually don't like at all is the curvy tube beach-cruiser look.
On May 5, 4:58 pm, eflayer wr
I think you need to pay attention to both seat and top tube when
shopping frames. There's no one right answer, it depends greatly on
how the bike will be ridden and the intended bars. One of the main
benefits of the typical Rivendell fit is the typically higher bars,
but you don't want/need them hi
I was under the impression that the heavy duty camper in the line-up
was the Atlantis, and the Hillbourne / AHH were all purpose "country"
bikes. The Atlantis, the Surly LHT, and the Co-motion Americano all
have pretty good reputation as heavy duty campers, and all with a
single top tube.
Michae
In my experience, don't fear the long top tubes on Rivendells. I was
a bit apprehensive (at 5'9"+) about going from a 54-55 standard road
bike to a 57 Bleriot and 58 Saluki. They fit great and I didn't have
the bars all that high. Big bikes are comfy.
Ryan
On May 5, 5:08 pm, Bill Connell wrot
Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to
stay away from impractical race standards?
As a matter of fact, the o-o-o-original idea with the 1.5-deg upslope, the
15mm top head lug extension, the longer steer tube, the longquill stems---
was to allow you to ride a smaller fr
Shot in the dark: does anyone have a 59-60cm Rambouillet, Romulus,
Saluki, or Hilsen that's too big for them and wants to trade for my
57cm Romulus + maybe a few hundred bucks? After a while of trying to
make my 57cm Rom fit well (a stretch at 5'11" / 86 PBH) I've finally
decided that it's time to
Thanks for the suggestions! I'm gonna try to make it to Rich's
upcoming seminar at RBWHQ, which I'm guessing is a great resource to
learn from. :)
-nathan
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Teit wrote:
> I use Roger Musson: The Professional Guide to Wheel Building:
> http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/whee
I am looking for a smallish type of Saddle bag. I am trying not to
spend a tonmaybe a Sacksville XS, Keven's bag or a Carradice
Zipper Roll. That basic style. Anyone have anything they want to get
rid of?
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Well, no, not exactly. Both of those XOs are rigged with moustache bars. I
definitely am not a fan of MBs. I have seen Alba bars reversed, but thought
the poster had a few pix handy. Also curious about the thumb shifters,
twisters, or BE. I guess DT is possible as well.
Thank you, William,
Not a problem. I'm a fan of the 1993 XO-3. I sold a lot of them when
they were new.
Those handlebars are not Moustache bars. More specifically, they are
not Nitto RM-016 bars. They were called 'Priest' bars by B-stone and
had a bend that was much closer to the Albatross than the Moustache.
The
> You can disparage that as following "impractical race standards" all
> you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works
> better for me.
Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers
he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a
m
Perhaps my legs are freakishlly long. If I go down a size, I have to
put the seat post freakishly high in order to get proper pedaling
extension.
On May 5, 7:42 pm, Grant Petersen wrote:
> Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to
> stay away from impractical race standa
Perhaps... the PBH measurement emphasis is too strong? I've learned
over the years of hip and other injuries that top tube length and seat
tube angle are the most important bike dimensions to consider 1st. PBH
only tells you if you can straddle the top tube and how much seat post
will show. Of cou
I just took possession of a Waterford Sam last Thursday. It is a 56cm
and it has only a single top tube. I wasn't expecting to go the
Waterford route but when I finally decided to pull the trigger I went
to RBWWHQ with debit card in hand and was told that the incoming batch
would only accept side
Thanks to all who replied! Lots of great pictures and info there.
Still wondering how many Salukis were produced
The check is in the mail to the seller, so I expect I will be
unpacking my very first Rivendell in two weeks or so. Based on what's
coming and not coming with the bike, I know
In RR 33 they said the first run was going to be 100 (half were
cantilevers and half for centerpulls). I'm guessing they had a one or
two more batches made but I'd guess again they weren't in very large
quantities..
On May 5, 10:41 am, Rob Harrison wrote:
> Thanks to all who replied! Lots of gr
on 5/5/10 8:35 AM, Mitch Browne at mitch.bro...@gmail.com wrote:
> Need advice. I finally put together my Atlantis and have been riding
> back and forth to work 16 miles RT for the past four weeks without
> issue and happily shifting very well. I am really enjoying fully using
> a useful triple. B
my only comment to this discussion is the location of the reinforcing
2nd tube. The Retrotec's and the Singers both look aesthetically
correct. The Bomba does not work for me visually. I cast my lowly
Rivendell newbie vote for the diagonal design on any new Sam or
Hunqua.
~Mike~
On May 5, 2:22 pm
Eowyn - women's specific road bike (shorter top tube for starters)
This suggestion is not original to me.
On May 5, 5:02 pm, Aaron Thomas wrote:
> Or "Meathead."
>
> On May 5, 4:59 pm, Mike wrote:
>
> > > > Archie
>
> > > and the matching Mixtes, Betty and Veronica
>
> > I was thinking Archie Bu
The Beatnik!
Ryan
On May 5, 8:26 pm, Lynne Fitz wrote:
> Eowyn - women's specific road bike (shorter top tube for starters)
> This suggestion is not original to me.
>
> On May 5, 5:02 pm, Aaron Thomas wrote:
>
>
>
> > Or "Meathead."
>
> > On May 5, 4:59 pm, Mike wrote:
>
> > > > > Archie
>
> >
I'm glad I got a 56 with the single tt. I can see any reason for two,
neither looks nor durability. Odd.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:46 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > Me too. I can't think of any reason to put a double top tube on a
> > road bike,
>
> How about they look so darn cool?
>
> http://www
I've carried close to 40 lb in back on my 56 single tuber with no problems;
and this in Dutch style panniers that aren't nearly as securely fastened as,
say, Ortliebs. I still don't see the need, and I'm glad I got a Waterford
with cantis and one tt.
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:22 PM, William wrote:
On May 5, 5:02 pm, Aaron Thomas wrote:
> Or "Meathead."
>
That would be perfect for the Hunqa.
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That is what I did, as well as using shortish stems -- 8 cm. The bikes fit
and feel and handle perfectly.
The new Sam Hill is a 56 with a 59 tt and came with a 10 cm stem; I simply
kept the bars high -- about 1/2 inch above saddle versus 2" below for the
others -- tho' considerably lower than they
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > You can disparage that as following "impractical race standards" all
> > you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works
> > better for me.
>
> Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers
> he goe
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:14 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means
> of accommodating a weird build.
Here's what I want to know. What is the size/proportion of legs/torso
arms/height that is expected and/or designed for?
I'd like to be
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:14 AM, PATRICK MOORE
> wrote:
> > And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means
> > of accommodating a weird build.
>
>
> Here's what I want to know. What is the size/proportion of legs/torso
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:25 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> Do you mean, "that is expected by Rivendell and designed for by Rivendell"?
> IOW, what build does Grant have in mind when he designs his bikes?
> I'd guess the normal range.
Yes - but I don't know what 'normal' is. This is why I asked. :)
I have to agree. Most of these name choices leave me cold (I read such
threads only to work myself up into a lather of righteous annoyance, but
never mind) but for "Inigo Montoya," I'd have to buy one, too, or at least
get the decals to slap on my other Rivs.
Patrick "My name is Inigo Montoya. You
Can you find shirts and pants that fit you in the men's section at large
chain stores? Then you are normal, no?
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Seth Vidal wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:25 AM, PATRICK MOORE
> wrote:
> > Do you mean, "that is expected by Rivendell and designed for by
> Rive
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:32 AM, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> Can you find shirts and pants that fit you in the men's section at large
> chain stores? Then you are normal, no?
>
Shirts, if they are in the 'Tall' section. I find I can't keep them
tucked in if they are not.
and Pants if they are normali
Anyone interested in doing the Chabot Bike loop Tuesday or Thursday of
next week? Fairly easy and causal 12ish miles of mixed terrain with
rolling and bumpilous fire trails and with an option of a longer route
going through redwood road. Food option at the end would be Main
Streets Bagels which is
On May 5, 9:42 pm, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> I'm glad I got a 56 with the single tt. I can see any reason for two,
> neither looks nor durability. Odd.
>
Maybe not on the 56, but as frames get larger they become more
susceptible to shimmy. The 60 and above could be shimmy machines in
the right cond
I wish I could join you Manny. I'll be passing by on Redwood Road
Tuesday morning and Thursday morning. Commuting to work.
On May 5, 10:19 pm, manueljohnacosta
wrote:
> Anyone interested in doing the Chabot Bike loop Tuesday or Thursday of
> next week? Fairly easy and causal 12ish miles of mixe
Princess Bride quotes yes!
If you walk up to my six year old daughter and say:
"No more rhymes, I mean it!"
She'll reply:
"Anybody want a peanut?"
Perhaps the next Riv should be the R.O.U.S. Grant's never done an
acronym Riv, has he?
On May 5, 9:30 pm, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> I have to agree
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