Re: UI toolkits for Python

Kenneth McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'd have to agree with this. Unfortunately, the only way to use Swing > (in a > reasonable manner) from Python is to use Jython, and Jython has other > shortcomings that make me not want to use it. What shortcomings? -- http://mail.python.org/mailma

Re: UI toolkits for Python

I'd have to agree with this. Unfortunately, the only way to use Swing (in a reasonable manner) from Python is to use Jython, and Jython has other shortcomings that make me not want to use it. Sigh. Ken On 19-Oct-05, at 9:59 AM, Ed Jensen wrote: > Claudio Grondi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>

Re: UI toolkits for Python

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: >> > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> What surprises me is that marketing types will accept turning away - >> >> what's the current internet user base? 200 milli

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Steve Holden wrote: [80/20 rule] > This is as much an economic decision as a marketing one, but a good engineer > knows instinctively that there is a desirable cut-off point beyond which > adding further functionality is a waste of engineering effort. But Mike Meyer's point was that the Web stan

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mark Roseman wrote: > What I'm suggesting is taking the effort you'd put to the 5%, and > applying that effort instead to making the 95% even better. If that > extra effort would affect conversion rates, it's a justifiable option. Yes, but isn't this where the 90/10 rule kicks in? In other words,

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Claudio Grondi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I haven't seen any really platform-independent software yet and I don't > expect to see any in the future. > It is simply not possible to have one, even if much progress was done lately > in many areas in order to try to approach it as close as possible.

Re: UI toolkits for Python

> > Another possible scenario I have in mind is to control the Internet browser > > directly from a Python script using DHTML as a language for definition of > > appearance and specification of necessary data processing of in the browser > > displayed UI. This way the Internet browser and HTML with

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Claudio Grondi wrote: > "Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Claudio Grondi wrote: [...] >Do I miss here something? > While you are correct in saying (I paraphrase) that HTML interfaces nowadays can offer a rich graphical inter

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Alex Martelli wrote: > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [... browser audience discussion ...] >>What makes you think that the expenditure of effort is "totally out of >>proportion"? In my experience, that isn't the case - at least if you >>go into it planning on doing things that way. Retrofit

Re: UI toolkits for Python

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > > You mean like google? Until recently, they're an outstanding example > > of doing things right, and providing functionality that degrades > > gracefully as the clients capabilities go down. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "until recently" in this con

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> What surprises me is that marketing types will accept turning away - > >> what's the current internet user base? 200 million? - 10 million > >> potential customers witho

Re: UI toolkits for Python

"Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Claudio Grondi wrote: > > "Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > [...] > [Claudio] > >>>I don't fully understand your attitude here. The Web Browser interface > > > > has > > > >>>all I can imagi

Re: UI toolkits for Python

> You elided the paragraph where I pointed out the third alternative: > provide a better experience for the 95%, and an ok experience for the > 5%. WWW technologies are designed to degrade gracefully - it's easy to > take advantage of that. What I'm suggesting is taking the effort you'd put to the

Re: UI toolkits for Python

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> What surprises me is that marketing types will accept turning away - >> what's the current internet user base? 200 million? - 10 million >> potential customers without a complaint. Or maybe they just don't get >> t

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mark Roseman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: >> > Maybe that's the key difference between the mindset of a >> > mathematician and that of an engineer -- I consider reaching over >> > 95% of visitors to be _quite good i

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... > What surprises me is that marketing types will accept turning away - > what's the current internet user base? 200 million? - 10 million > potential customers without a complaint. Or maybe they just don't get > told that that's what's going on. In firm

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Paul Rubin wrote: > All this extreme use of JS misses the point, it's client side > programming all over again This is so true, although I don't expect those people relentlessly hyping "AJAX" to either realise the significance of that observation or to necessarily make an accessible Web site for t

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mike Meyer a écrit : > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > >>Maybe that's the key difference between the mindset of a >>mathematician and that of an engineer -- I consider reaching over >>95% of visitors to be _quite good indeed_, > > > Oh? So you'd consider an SMTP/IMAP/POP/DNS/NFS/etc

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mike Meyer a écrit : > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > >>Maybe that's the key difference between the mindset of a >>mathematician and that of an engineer -- I consider reaching over >>95% of visitors to be _quite good indeed_, > > > Oh? So you'd consider an SMTP/IMAP/POP/DNS/NFS/etc

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > > Maybe that's the key difference between the mindset of a > > mathematician and that of an engineer -- I consider reaching over > > 95% of visitors to be _quite good indeed_, >> What surprises me is that marketing

Re: UI toolkits for Python

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) writes: > Maybe that's the key difference between the mindset of a > mathematician and that of an engineer -- I consider reaching over > 95% of visitors to be _quite good indeed_, Oh? So you'd consider an SMTP/IMAP/POP/DNS/NFS/etc server that rejected 5% of the sy

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Paul Rubin wrote: > Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Because everybody is capable of running a JS engine, even on > > computers on which you don't have rights to install something. > > I don't think using JS so heavily without a compelling reason is > rea

Re: UI toolkits for Python

[Ken] > Web interfaces are missing a lot more than this. Here are just a few > things that cannot be done with web-based interfaces (correct me > where I'm wrong): > > 1) A real word processor. http://www.writely.com/ http://www.goffice.com/ > 2) Keybindings in a web application http://rem

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Because everybody is capable of running a JS engine, even on > computers on which you don't have rights to install something. I don't think using JS so heavily without a compelling reason is really in the WWW spirit. Lots of browsers don't have JS. A

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Hallöchen! Paul Rubin writes: > Michael Ekstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >>> 2) Keybindings in a web application >> >> Not sure here, but JavaScript may be able to do something to >> accomplish some of this. A web-delivered XUL app can definitely >> do this. But

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Michael Ekstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > 2) Keybindings in a web application > > Not sure here, but JavaScript may be able to do something to accomplish > some of this. A web-delivered XUL app can definitely do this. But > that's pushing the limits of what can be considered a web applica

Re: UI toolkits for Python

On Oct 17, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Kenneth McDonald wrote: > Web interfaces are missing a lot more than this. Here are just a > few things that cannot be done with web-based interfaces (correct > me where I'm wrong): > > 1) A real word processor. > 2) Keybindings in a web application > 3) Drag and

Re: UI toolkits for Python

On Monday 17 October 2005 12:19, Kenneth McDonald wrote: > 1) A real word processor. Difficult. Not necessarily impossible. Would require much cleverness. And it wouldn't be capable of everything Word can do. > 2) Keybindings in a web application Not sure here, but JavaScript may be able to do

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Web interfaces are missing a lot more than this. Here are just a few things that cannot be done with web-based interfaces (correct me where I'm wrong):1) A real word processor.2) Keybindings in a web application3) Drag and drop4) Resizable windows (i.e. not the browser window) within the applicatio

Re: UI toolkits for Python

> With OS X compatibility you tend to come across with the > fact that many "OS X compatible" things are actually X11 > things. X11 certainly looks different from Aqua (the native > interface). But imho, Gnome _does_ "look and feel" quite Mac-ish in the sense that its ergonomics has certain thin

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Claudio Grondi wrote: > "Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag [...] [Claudio] >>>I don't fully understand your attitude here. The Web Browser interface > > has > >>>all I can imagine is required for a GUI, so what is missing when you >>>consider, that you can generate custom i

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Grant Edwards wrote: > Aside from the look & feel issue with Tk, the other objection > sometimes heard is that Tk is integrated into Python by > including Tcl as well (as opposed to doing an actual Tk binding > the way some other languages have done). It's an eminently > practical approach, but

Re: UI toolkits for Python

"Steve Holden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Claudio Grondi wrote: > > "Kenneth McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>Thanks for reminding me of Gtk. OK, add that to the list. > >> > >>The Web Browser interface is good for si

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Malte Clasen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Claudio Grondi wrote: >> What is that complex, that it can't be solved using an Internet Browser as a >> GUI? > > Nothing, but session management isn't trivial with http > interfaces. You have to deal with the back button of the browsers, > bookmarks to p

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Claudio Grondi wrote: > "Kenneth McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Thanks for reminding me of Gtk. OK, add that to the list. >> >>The Web Browser interface is good for simple things, and will get better >>with CSS2's adoption, but they still don't have a good way

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Kenneth McDonald wrote: > Is there any emerging consensus on the "best" UI for toolkit. Tk never > quite made it but from what I can see, both qt and wxWin are both doing > fairly well in general. I'm already aware of the licensing issues > surrounding qt (fwiw, I think their license fee for co

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Kenneth McDonald schrieb: > Is there any emerging consensus on the "best" UI for toolkit. Tk never > quite made it but from what I can see, both qt and wxWin are both doing > fairly well in general. I'm already aware of the licensing issues > surrounding qt (fwiw, I think their license fee for

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Claudio Grondi wrote: > What is that complex, that it can't be solved using an Internet Browser as a > GUI? Nothing, but session management isn't trivial with http interfaces. You have to deal with the back button of the browsers, bookmarks to pages that result from posted forms, users leaving t

Re: UI toolkits for Python

"Kenneth McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Thanks for reminding me of Gtk. OK, add that to the list. > > The Web Browser interface is good for simple things, and will get better > with CSS2's adoption, but they still don't have a good way for important > things like i

Re: UI toolkits for Python

"Adriaan Renting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/14/05 5:39 pm >>> > $"Adriaan Renting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > $[On Qt] > $>I don't know how it performs on OSX, I think it works fine, as Qt is > $>available on OSX. > $ > $Qt on OS X is halfway there.

Re: UI toolkits for Python

>>>Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/14/05 5:39 pm >>> #"Adriaan Renting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: #[On Qt] #... #[mike on qt for Mac Os X] #... I've looked some more into this, and it seems that the confusion is because Qt on Mac maps: Command/Apple key -> Qt::Key_Control Ctrl Key

Re: UI toolkits for Python

>>>Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/14/05 5:39 pm >>> $"Adriaan Renting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: $[On Qt] $>I don't know how it performs on OSX, I think it works fine, as Qt is $>available on OSX. $ $Qt on OS X is halfway there. It looks - and acts - like an aqua $application. However,

Re: UI toolkits for Python

"Adriaan Renting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [On Qt] > I don't know how it performs on OSX, I think it works fine, as Qt is > available on OSX. Qt on OS X is halfway there. It looks - and acts - like an aqua application. However, to support the Command key, they hacked things so that it is report

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Adriaan Renting wrote: [which GUI toolkit?] Kenneth McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 10/13/05 10:17 pm >>> > > Is there any emerging consensus on the "best" UI for toolkit. Tk > never quite made it but from what I can see, both qt and wxWin are > both doing fairly well in general. I'm alread

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Something to consider when writing cross-platform applications with any gui toolkit is that it never works out of the box. Despite what they might promise you. If you have yourself access to a Windows, Linux and Mac OS X computer, you probably won't have any problem to make it fully cross-platform

Re: UI toolkits for Python

I realy like developing PyQt applications using the Eric3 IDE. I find Qt really has a lot of high level functionality already available for you, I like the flexibility of the slot-signal system, I like that the Qt C++ maps very well into object-oriented Python though PyQt. You can just use the Qt

Re: UI toolkits for Python

sure it is, but since this is a Python list, you'd also need PyQt to go along with it, and there's no version of PyQt yet compatible with Qt4. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: UI toolkits for Python

I find wxPython to pro fill my GUI needs from python in a pretty good way. To show off it's capabilities - I am building a GUI editor and it currently converts from windows forms (visual studio c# forms) to wxPython code. When I started programming this editor I thought I'd have major incompatibili

Re: UI toolkits for Python

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kenneth McDonald wrote: > 4) Ease of installation/use on OS X? There are two questions which may restrict your choice rather a lot: #1 Should the UI look the same on each platform or should it look the same as all other apps on the platform? #2 Are you trying

Re: UI toolkits for Python

> > However, Tkinter not most people's favorite, because the widgets look > > crude, they don't resemble the native widgets of any popular platform, > > and the widget set is somewhat limited. (given that the web interface is the new black, that's not much of an argument. tkinter with the right s

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Er, meant to say "In addition GTK itself is in the top tier of free software projects" -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: UI toolkits for Python

I've used wxpython and pygtk, and have a strong preference for pygtk. wxpython has some advantages: it has better OSX support (widgets look native, and it doesn't require the installation of the Fink x server), and better win32 support (a few gtk widgets, such as menus, don't look quite native on g

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Kenneth McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > both doing fairly well in general. I'm already aware of the licensing > issues surrounding qt (fwiw, I think their license fee for commercial > use is eminently reasonable), so aside from that, I was wondering if [...] Qt 4 is available as

Re: UI toolkits for Python

This improved appearance has been a nice thing to see, but looks were never really the reason I decided to leave Tkinter. It's much more the fundamental issues of Tk, plus the fact that Tkinter was never really "completed" (not a comment on the original author--there's only so much one person can d

Re: UI toolkits for Python

On 2005-10-13, Paul Rubin <> wrote: > The answer to each of those questions points to Tkinter. It comes > with Python by default (the least installation hassles of any > toolkit), is pretty reliable, has a reasonably Pythonic interface, and > I don't understand the question about external librari

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Paul Rubin wrote: > However, Tkinter not most people's favorite, because the widgets look > crude, they don't resemble the native widgets of any popular platform, > and the widget set is somewhat limited. People should probably be more aware of work that has been going

Re: UI toolkits for Python

On Thursday 13 October 2005 15:17, Kenneth McDonald wrote: > 1) Which plays best with Python? Ideally, it would already have some > higher-level python libraries to hide the grotty stuff that is almost > never needed when actually implementing apps. wxPython plays reasonably well. I've just start

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Thanks for reminding me of Gtk. OK, add that to the list. The Web Browser interface is good for simple things, and will get better with CSS2's adoption, but they still don't have a good way for important things like interactive styled text, key bindings, etc. Good for simple things (for which I

Re: UI toolkits for Python

Kenneth McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 1) Which plays best with Python? Ideally, it would already have some > higher-level python libraries to hide the grotty stuff that is almost > never needed when actually implementing apps. > > 2) Reliability of each? > > 3) Useful external libraries

UI toolkits for Python

Is there any emerging consensus on the "best" UI for toolkit. Tk never quite made it but from what I can see, both qt and wxWin are both doing fairly well in general. I'm already aware of the licensing issues surrounding qt (fwiw, I think their license fee for commercial use is eminently r