It would probably be a good module to work out overloading
on as well.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
rovides the bitwise ops, and pack and unpack, and that's about it.
One of my submissions to Horos's list was the ability to have a little
more hooks in for raw buffer manipulation.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ate? (Is it POSIX?) Perhaps a
Unix::(Tools|Calls|Toys) module?
Of course, this may actually be a little off topic for this list, and
better suited for internals. (ie, it shouldn't matter how Perl
implements it as long as it works, no?)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Most just have one thread. ;-)
I'll have an RFC on this for the internals group if I don't stumble
across one later.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The librarian address doesn't seem to be working, so I'm injecting this
here.
=head1 TITLE
Request For New Pragma: Implicit
=head1 VERSION
Maintainer: Bryan C. Warnock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 01 Aug 2000
Version: 1
Mailing List: perl6-language
Num
ng. Removing automatic runtime checking in favor
of an op indicating runtime checking will double the size of the optree,
and make regular perl that much slower with everything else.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
confused and less at home with Perl?
Forget the Unix and C programmers, what about the Perl programmers?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
e standard Perl I/O with, say, O/I, they could.
I suppose whatever ends up as 'Perl 5 mode' would auto-include the
modules the former core functions disappeared into.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
o be more.
My Perl didn't come with instructions, just a little tag that said,
"Use me."
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
^Huse this in production
code, but I guess anything and everything can be dangerous.
(Hence the warning on the Pop-Tart sleeves that tell you to remove the
wrapper before putting them in the toaster.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
allow me to impliment this as a module
vice a pragma; I've another RFC coming with a similar, (but more
valid, you'll be glad to know) issue); mumkin tomorrow.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
make a bad analogy, it's like a TV show amidst a recast. Add a new
character out of the blue? Well, okay, I can buy that. Kill a
character off? Umm, I can live with that too, I guess. But to tell me
that Dick York and Dick Sargent are the same Darrin Stephens? It's a
little disconcerting to look at.
-- Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
say "setuid". (Plus, my Arabic skills have drastically waned.)
:-(
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
thing once in Perl, it doesn't need to be
rewritten. :-P
The key word above is "encourage". You're not really encouraging
anything - you're now having the language mandate particular constructs,
without the added benefit of teaching people why these constructs are
important.
> Or wouldn't perl without the bad reputation really be perl anymore?...
I find that the only bad rep Perl really gets is that it is too
powerful from a UI perspective. People are afraid of TMTOWTDI.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
(for you), you can't use '?' because it would be
> ambiguous WRT the ?PATTERN? syntax.
Well, actually, I *did* start off using '?' for print.
(As Damian has proven time and again, import filters are wonderful
toys. :-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ion.
> > ?pattern? # one-time match
> > split ?pat? # implicit split to @_
Which is currently labeled as deprecated, I believe. Most things
labeled (or treated, such as pre-pod embedded docstrings) as
deprecated should/could be removed.
> > What
Yes, it's lc 'shell' everywhere but the title. It's that damned
disconnect between English and, English.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ackticks.
@results = `$shell_command`;
It's intuitive, quick, and DWIM.
Surely, Perl on Windows doesn't require /bin/sh, does it?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
for the measurements the
platform doesn't support.
Or maybe a fractional second, drop the smaller fields, and include a
resolution field that would tell you how many digits are valid?
printf "%.${digits}f", $sec;
perhaps?
>
> --Gisle
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
issue. Whether Perl continues to
support formats certainly is, but its location within Perl is more of
an internals thing.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
e the picture?
..
..
..
..
..
.. Oh, now I get it.
I understand now, but that certainly wasn't my first, second, or third
interpretation of it.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ore. (I wanted to watch the order of
various modules being used, and was testing out my implicit print hack.
:-)
Neither case should be considered justification for any decision being
made. I tend to be a fringe programmer, and do things just because I
can.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ge it" argument a couple of times now and it's
> not a strong enough argument. The whole point is to clean up the
> language.
Most of the requests for deletion seem to begin with, "This isn't
used..."
To which, "*I* use it." is a very valid argument.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
dling this. After all, in some cases it's more than just a scalar
reverse. Formatting, Text::Wrap, etc, for instance, has to wrap the
other way.
Perhaps a sub-list to hash out how we can do this without bloating Perl
too much?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Tue, 08 Aug 2000, Brad hughes wrote:
> > Why not? Throw and catch are familiar to programmers.
>
> Not all programmers.
>
Oops, correct. My mistake. Even more reason not to introduce yet
another lexicon.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Tue, 08 Aug 2000, Casey R. Tweten wrote:
> Today around 6:55pm, Bryan C. Warnock hammered out this masterpiece:
>
> : chop, chomp, (champ, chimp, chump, chap, and chip, which, respectively,
> : deletes all leading and trailing whitespace characters, all leading
> : whitespace
this a web-based CPAN resource, but
> boy this should not clutter up every module out there.
We tried this, too. It worked, but was a little too awkward for our
use. (And failed the requirements in the end anyway.)
FFT.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
out unchomp would be like having <= but not having >=
> [see note]. Sure you can get by without it- just change the order of the
> args, but why would you want to? If you have one, the other needs to be
> there for, if nothng else, parity.
>
chomp() uses $/, I believe. $\ is
On Wed, 09 Aug 2000, John Porter wrote:
> Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> >
> > Chomp removes one or more line separators from the end.
>
> It does? You're using a different version of Perl than I am.
Sorry. You're correct. I was rolling the string, list, and parag
Hmm, maybe I should have changed the subject back to rambling
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ise, I
just ignore it.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
This was the RFC that I never found the gall to write, because I've
identified no solutions, and have found only problems.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ut will *still* be valid Perl whatever that is.
Regardless of whether this is any clearer, I've still no idea how this
could be done. And I'm sure TMTOWTDI outside of all this.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, David L. Nicol wrote:
> "Bryan C. Warnock" wrote:
>
> > This was the ass that I never found the gall to scratch, because I've
> > identified no solutions, and have found only problems.
> >
> > --
> > Bryan C. Warnock
>
y it wasn't simply made a read-only scalar.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ple
classifications, it may make more sense to switch the two.
CLASS.ERROR
This may make it easier for users to register their own errors under
pre-existing classes.
Another idea would be two shorts, one for each. (Where you could
either handle numbers or bitmaps.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ce is simple enough, I don't care what the interface is.
Although, (and this may have already been
mentioned/suggested/accepted/rejected),
if you're going to have an object interface, perhaps the constructor
can take the strftime string for use as the default scalar output?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
something should be a valid,
meaningful construct in Perl, regardless of the implementation, is the
focus of the language team. Perhaps a better job of making this
distinction will keep the language list from its current bloat, as skud
pointed out. The language list keeps migrating from "why" to "how".)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
.all(List)=="Programmers")
->programs=(Language::Programming.uses("Perl")==true &&
Methodology.implemented(Style.OO==true,Time.all==true)))==true;
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ll the discussion is taking place in the
master list before the sublists are spawned. You can only express the
opinion that foo is not bar and never should be so many times.
(To be fair, I collapse my lists, and don't pay attention to what is
posted to what list.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
esire maintaining relative indentations,
and not the arbitrary removal of all leading whitespace.
Wasn't there a recipe for this? (Although I wouldn't mind seeing it
implicit to the language.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
t MJD, although it would still have to be converted to
native format anyway.)
I can understand wanting to present the user with a common,
multi-platform, consistent date/time interface, but I don't understand
extending that to the internals.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
(or
because!) of our efforts here. We can make it easier for the users to
adapt, but Perl will need to continue to evolve, as well.
(As spoken by a one-eyebrow, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
e standard UNIX epoch as
well.
Internally, you should use whatever the platform you're running on uses.
Externally, you can use whatever you'd like.
>
> -Nate
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
27;,'Betty');
>
> my $male_speakers = $speakers[0:1]; # If perl supported this style of range - see
>RFC coming soon
>
> # BUT:
>
> my $image = read_huge_2d_list_of_numbers('file');
>
> my $favorite_pixels = $image[10:20,50:100];
> my $best_pixel = $image[11,55];
>
>
> Karl
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
"...
Doesn't a lot of OO work (esp. on the Mac) tend to do this?
The first thing they do in their application is instantiate an
application (mainly, itself, without the application instantiation) and
run it.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
s in English!
>
> We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".
I, personally, prefer the Stoogian "Whoop whoop whoop!"
Although it's hard to stop at three.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
than your main program. We're going to have to
> think of a way to consistently say "do this in my caller's lexical
> scope" without it becoming a nasty upvar hell.
Not that it adds much information, but this is the lament of RFC 40.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ng to turn it
off. (There may have been some confusion in the default settings. The
implicit arg would be 'on' by default. To turn it off would require:
no implict arg;
Use could then turn it back on again.)
Trust me, I've no desire of removing the features that won me over
low visual RTL. (s/will need to/should/, I suppose.)
I doubt that many people on the list have a personal involvement in
this issue, and shouldn't care one way or another if we can implement
it without penalty to everyone else. It may be that we just add this
as another reason to do foo() like bar.
(Hence my suggestion to get it down out of everyone's way.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
sily developed using threads.
> something which I hope to develop when perl6 is ready...)
>
I don't understand this paragraph.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
first character) are all efficient string
idioms for which a regular expression is overkill. If external modules
become as efficient as we hope they are, there is no reason that *any*
of the above should be CORE perl, but chop and chomp should certainly
remain in the core distro. As is.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
per scope, unless it's explicitly ignoring the upper scope.
While its true you can suffer a similar fate by supplanting a global
variable with a lexical variable in an intermediate scope, you're not
changing the scope context of the lower-level variables.
It's one thing to call a wrong number. It's another when the phone
company changes your number for you.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Tue, 08 Aug 2000, Bennett Todd wrote:
> If perl6 substantially fails to fill the important roles that perl5
> fills, we should stop screwing everybody up by calling it "perl",
> and call it something else.
Hmmm. I vote for "Edsel."
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
t-and-measure-derived
naming convention would be replaced with something a little more...
Anglican.
So yes, but no. Or no, but yes, since the question was asked in the
negative.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
it could also be just as easily rolled in, although
I think that might be counter-intuitive.
-- Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
7;t name things very meaningful anyway, now do I?
All I care about is the underlying functionality.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
e various existing modules that
provide this type of interface.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Nathan Wiger wrote:
>my int ($x, $y), char $z; # mix classes
>my int ($x, $y) :64bit, char $z :long; # and attrs
my (int ($x, $y), char $z);
my (int ($x, $y) :64bit, char $z :long);
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ink it's where you're likely to find your
solution. (Particularly with vtables behind them.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
dditions allow you to
cast types?
New keywords? int() and uint(), for example?
New operator for right-shifting (sign-bit propagation)? >>>?
Stay the course?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ength $x[-1]) { pop @x }
Which, to me, is a good reason to keep the current behavior.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
unds, and supposedly 'this or that' is less common
for file tests.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ne hundred thousand ten
millionths.
How did we get on this subject? Oh, yes, sorting by the number spelled out...
That should throw several cultures for a loop.
Four and twenty blackbirds, baked 'e' and 'pi'.
>
> Ghod knows how this GST would have you pronounce 5.
DWIMs. Sort of a self-executable zip file.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
trigger garbage collection and
resource reallocation? (Not that this addresses the remainder of your
post.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
the destruction
> order problem.
Well, no. My thought would be if A needed to be destroyed before B, then B
wouldn't/shouldn't be marked for GC until after A was destroyed. It might
take several sweeps to clean an entire dependency tree, unfortunately.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
the archive and decompress it on-the-fly.
Is that '.tar and .zip' as in '.tar and .zip' or '.tar or .zip'?
Aren't most tars still unindexed, requiring a full file scan anyway?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
So you want to force people to adhere to strict rules, but it would be too
onerous to force them to adhere to strict rules?
(Personally, I don't care about the extra warnings, as long as I can shut
them up. That doesn't really change perl's behavior. Forced strictness
does.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
On Friday 16 February 2001 07:36, Branden wrote:
> But it surely isn't
> consistent with the rest of the language.
It's consistent with "our" and "local", which are really the only other
things in the language that parallel its use.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
improvement to the product,
- you don't make any of these decisions arbitrarily.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
he should not put parenthesis around `my's list of variables.
Then maybe the documentation should be improved. Maybe makng a clearer
delineation and how and why and when these work are in order.
Particularly once attributes come out in full force, which will also bind
more tightly than ,
led. The actual code was
(my($foo),local($"),our($bar),my($baz)) = @_;
;-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
sound effects, and this
voice-over guy that gives instructions. The first instruction given in the
setup box? If you'd like to turn off the voice, click this box. Nothing
else is sound dependent. Somehow I think there's a lesson to be learned
here.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 20 February 2001 16:03, John Porter wrote:
> Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> >
> > And there's a difference between warnings originating because something
has
> > gone wrong and those originating because I'm doing something
particularly
> > per
hould the Perl cabal deem that, for Perl to improve, it *must* undergo
these radical changes, I will, to the best of my meager abilities, attempt
to implement them.
My position may seem a bit extreme - after all, didn't I, in the second
RFC, attempt to autoprint statements in a void context? I started in the
middle of the road, but as arguments like this have continued, I've moved
wy to the minimalist's side. Hey, overhaul Perl to your heart's
content so that you're able to do x, y, and z; just so long as Perl itself
doesn't do x, y, and z.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tch every time.
> Of course, we may not be able to say that, in which case hints of any sort
> are a Good Thing.
Yes. One way or t'other.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
d work for plain perl
> data structures as well, as we might potentially be doing a fair amount of
> data conversion through the variable vtable interface. (Not to mention the
> issues of data mangling for proper Unicode sorting support)
>
> Dan
>
> --"it's like this"---
> Dan Sugalski even samurai
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
> teddy bears get drunk
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
pull double duty as a decimal point, as well.
'4.5' (4.5) vs '4 .5' (45) vs '4. 5' (missing operator)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(missing operator)
>
> beautiful. Then extending this is simple, consistent, easy to read,
> compatible with perl5..
I'm not sure that that was the point I was trying to make.
If nothing else, the '.' would then be responsible for *three*
different actions.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
= ( foo => 1, bar => '=>', baz => 1 )
Or it could be
%foo = ( foo => 1, bar => 1, '=>' => 'baz' )
But I like the concept of a quote hash.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
C, with thousands of
> typedefs representing basic types ("LPSTR" and "HWND" come to mind as the
> most common).
Not mention the hoop-jumping required to keep variable names in sync with
code changes. (signed-ness, short->int->long, etc)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
? You didn't test it before you posted it? For shame! ;-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 15 May 2001 21:17, Simon Cozens wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 09:11:21PM -0400, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> > What? You didn't test it before you posted it? For shame! ;-)
>
> Bah. Damian and I are working on ways of prototyping the Perl 6
> interpreter in
e perl 6.0;
use >= perl 6.0; # or use perl >= 6.0?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
vice -1 for all items.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Saturday 02 June 2001 11:21 am, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> On Friday 01 June 2001 11:06 pm, David L. Nicol wrote:
> > having wantarray return the number of items needed, or -1 for
> > all of them, would work very nicely for user-written partial returners.
> >
> > Did
hat
they are.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ery = qq{ SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE field $c[$cond] $x };
print "$query\n";
}
Even less to type. Maybe not all *that* clear, but no less than ?:, ?::,
and ?:?: all meaning different things.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
methods) I
can think of are:
$x = ($default,$a,$b)[$b<=>$a]; # Much like I did before
($x) = sort { $a <=> $b or $default } ($a,$b);
# Since <=> and cmp were created more-or-less specifically for sort
The former is faster than the latter, but neither are as quick as the more
c
).
Although I now understand what it does, I'm still fuzzy on the why and how.
Can someone in the know give a clear enough explanation that I can document?
The rest of you can debate whether or not this behavior should change for
Perl 6.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Monday 30 July 2001 05:37 am, Me wrote:
> In a nutshell, you are viewing:
>
> foo if bar;
>
> as two statements rather than one, right?
>
Yep. The 5.7 docs explain it rather well, I think. Too bad I didn't read
them until *after* I had posted and taken off
On Monday 30 July 2001 07:29 am, Bart Lateur wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 19:36:43 -0400, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> >$x = ($default,$a,$b)[$b<=>$a]; # Much like I did before
>
> Note that
>
> $x = cond? a : b
>
> does lazy evaluation, i.e. the value fo
(migrated from perl-qa)
On Wednesday 01 August 2001 03:10 pm, David L. Nicol wrote:
> "Bryan C. Warnock" wrote:
> > I didn't have a good solution for tables, mainly because I didn't like a
> > tab, comma, or pipe separated solution. (Which isn't intended
ping ease, and -> isn't that
> > hard to type. That's what editor macros are for.
>
> What about replacing "->" with "/" ?
Your idea aside, I think the substitution was more to gain the '.' than to
replace the '->'.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
legal? An error?
# (The chomp character is defined by the IRS attribute of a filehandle.)
# Can I define something that says to chomp the values entered
# into the hash? The keys?
# What if the hash is tied to a filehandle?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
n traditional get_ and set_ methods?
Properties interract with (potentially dynamic attributes), while member
functions do the real work.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
r indices), but would allow the internal values to be
changed.
Today, I don't particularly care anymore.
In any case, properties will be pushed to the bottom of my stack for things
to document. There's a lot of Perl 6 contending for the bottom position, it
seems.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thursday 02 August 2001 08:47 pm, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 06:57 PM 8/2/2001 -0400, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> >Here's how I'm documenting it. Corrections requested.
> >
> >Properties are by Perl thingy. (scalar, array, hash, reference, blessed
> >refe
wouldn't be
bad, except that there is a distinction between variables and the values
they contain.
For "out of band" data, properties sure have a strong affect on things.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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