Author: nicholas
Date: Sat Jul 1 12:24:40 2006
New Revision: 13096
Modified:
trunk/docs/pdds/pdd23_exceptions.pod
Log:
Fix two typos.
Modified: trunk/docs/pdds/pdd23_exceptions.pod
==
--- trunk/docs/pdds
Author: nicholas
Date: Sat Sep 9 06:38:49 2006
New Revision: 14510
Modified:
trunk/docs/pdds/pdd07_codingstd.pod
Log:
1 grammar fix, 1 typo fix.
Modified: trunk/docs/pdds/pdd07_codingstd.pod
==
--- trunk/docs/pdds
Author: nicholas
Date: Mon Mar 5 10:35:04 2007
New Revision: 17350
Modified:
trunk/docs/pdds/draft/pdd15_objects.pod
Log:
A few spelling corrections.
Modified: trunk/docs/pdds/draft/pdd15_objects.pod
==
--- trunk
rregular in the way it works.
A less irregular system would be nicer (hindsight is a wonderful thing)
It would have been nice to have had a less irregular system to start with
But we don't
Hence
Changing the current system represents upheaval
Does the change bring a net benefit?
Is that benefit worth the pain of the change?
Or do we stick with what we've got.
Nicholas Clark
e C
backslash constructions (except \v)" is an irregularity, not a feature. Every
non-useful irregularity removed aids advocacy, teaching and documenting,
without hindering programming.
Nicholas Clark
his into a neural net to isolate and collate
the ideas from the rants, which in turn runs a natural language engine to
generate a RFC whenever it "thinks" of something?
Nicholas Clark
cally legal but undef both as rval and lval)
If it's lexically scoped, would it be for arrays declared in that scope, or
for arrays accessed in that scope?
I'm not sure. I think I see potential breakage both ways.
Nicholas Clark
On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:56:43PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> Similarly modules' formatting breaks if you set $/;
$\;
D'oh
> How many of the punctuation variables would be better with less-than-global
> scope?
Nicholas Clark
nice.
Subroutine attributes instead? Default to current behaviour,
use strict; and you have to specify (in some way, prototype, attribute...)
whether each function has read-write or read-only @_?
Nicholas Clark
ummaries and search facility on the perl5
archive much more effective. What do other people think?
Nicholas Clark
on.de if not amazon.fr should also go in?
Nicholas Clark
essor if speed is your goal.
(Certainly I seem to do OK only knowing ARM2 instructions well. And
I suspect personally I'd prefer to write in ARM assembler than C#)
Nicholas Clark (typing this on a StrongARM machine running linux)
cale::hint_bits = 0x800;
" but I think not; even in perl5 it doesn't get initialised until the
code runs when the scope ends at the "1;" Modules that did
BEGIN {$locale::hint_bits = 0x800;}
still do what's expected of perl5 when written:
INIT {
BEGIN {$locale::hint_bits = 0x800;}
}
Nicholas Clark
nction __value_in_regs you get the results in r0 to r3.
Oh, and who said I didn't want to write my programs in perl and assembler?
Nicholas Clark
ought quite a bit about how to get it there.
It's a shame they don't stick to products that they are definitely good at:
hardware and books.
I wonder what would have happened if all those years ago they'd called
themselves Microhard. :-)
Nicholas Clark
rl.org, which isn't
run by O'Reilly, the firm running perl.com). It's a reasonable question to
ask, but you'll be more likely to get a meaningful answer if you can find
an address as perl.com (no, sorry, I don't know offhand which address)
Nicholas Clark
means fixup unshared bytecode
> at load time (or page fault time, or whatever). :-)
I thought so far we'd only had "use more".
I like "use less" and what it offers us:
use English; can be replaced with use less "line noise"; :-)
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 06:23:20PM +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Nicholas Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Specific example where you can't:
> > on ARM, the branch instructions (B and BL) are PC relative, but on
r)
and MOVing them to the PC, or loading the PC from a branch table in memory.
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 12:05:22PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 05:02 PM 10/25/00 +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 11:45:54AM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
> > > I vaguly can see a TIL that uses machine code linkage (real machine code
> > > ju
On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 12:28:55PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 05:21 PM 10/25/00 +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >"fixup sections" sound horribly like something I've read in association
> >with a.out or ELF shared libraries. (I forget which)
>
> Both, th
ld mean things like
$a=$b wouldn't actually copy anything (wasting time and (shared) memory
pages) until either $a or $b got changed.
[I have this feeling that there's a bit of this already in sv.c, but I'm
not sure how much]
Nicholas Clark
token is needed. How about `\C' for chunk? Or is this
> already taken?
\C Match a single C char (octet) even under utf8.
however, with UTF we now have thousands more glyphs to use as
escapes in regexp :-)
[aargh. I'm off topic for this list]
> Hmm, what about string comparisions? `eq' and friends should simply
> conmtinue to work as usual on the string contents. Do we need some
> kind of meta-eq to be able to compare the attribs also?
I think that that becomes a method call on one of the scalars.
Nicholas Clark
with the code for this.
>
> Agreed.
How does the regexp replacement engine cope with this? By implementing
all replacements as substr() type ops?
[or behaving as if it implements... whilst cheating and doing it direct for
scalars it understands?]
Or don't we need to work this out at this time?
Nicholas Clark
its value
Are those end members in a continuum? or are hybrids of the 2 impossible?
Am I barking up the wrong tree completely?
Nicholas Clark
can actually be done to avert the need
to buffer a lot of script in these situations. You mustn't attempt to seek
the script file handle as it might be from something unseekable such as a
pipe (or socket. BEGIN {socket STDIN...})
Nicholas Clark
cess. I'm uncomfortable leaving such decisions
> to such a small number of people. How about nominating/electing a
If PDDs start as "Proposed" without needing any approval does this remove
the problem of a small group having a stranglehold?
Nicholas Clark
e rest in one? [doesn't feel good]
Are we going to have "lazy scalars" which collude with the regexp engine
so that if the regexp engine hits the current end more is read from
the file handle?
Something else?
Or is this no-a-problem for some reason I've not thought of?
Nicholas Clark
On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 05:17:47PM +, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
> > >>>>> "ST" == Sam Tregar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Look throught the RFCs this was one of Damian Conway&#
e parser starts?
[I'm assuming that you're implying that regular files (determinate length,
seekable) are easy so we don't worry about optimising them until we make the
harder stuff work. So we forget I ever sent that last paragraph for some
months]
Nicholas Clark
PROTECTED]/msg00029.html
v3: http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg00354.html
> ST> Perhaps we really need a new kind of regex that works by-design against
> ST> streams of bytes?
I don't think any change is needed in the regex syntax. I think just being
careful to use minimal matching whenever possible should be sufficient.
Nicholas Clark
file;
};
erm. can't have bytes[0]; because that's not portable.
Can't really be short because who said that that was 2 bytes?
For that matter I know of one compiler which doesn't have any type
sizeof(2), and sizeof (struct counted_file) is 8 here on this arm machine
:-) Wierdo but ANSI compliant alignment constraints.
[yes, I forced that one using the second struct inside the first]
Nicholas Clark
er have a dependency on the IO library?
Bah. Can't have them both at the same time.
Nicholas Clark
On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 04:47:42PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 09:05 PM 11/28/00 +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>>On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 03:35:37PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
Not sure:
Dan:
>>>>> is treated as if it points to a stream of bytes, where the first f
mpting to make pp_add in
perl5 do this sort of thing, so I may be missing a better way of doing it]
> But that probably doesn't help much. Let me throw together something more
> detailed and we'll see where we go from there.
Hopefully it will cover the above case too.
Nicholas Clark
ist Scientist and the
Church of the Latter Day Saints in your list of organisations.
Do we need a sub list perl6-conspiracy-theories so that we can keep the
main lists free for other discussions?
Nicholas Clark
However, my PhD thesis had few typos in it by the time it was submitted, so
I can't be /that/ bad at it]
Nicholas Clark
nks that
perl5 Configure found (for our information on user platforms)
(void flags, volatile, const, headers absent, functions absent)
]
Nicholas Clark
ing useful for someone to maintain on the meta-design
list. (Is maintaining such a document an "apprentice" job? (see perl6-meta))
Nicholas Clark
turn out the lights" without needing reference counts
in the core SV)
Nicholas Clack
27;t pick up squirrels. The pointed end bites]
Not that that's important. But fflush(NULL) is, and we still seem to run
into that one on one current platform
But I agree with what you're saying.
Nicholas Clark
(or anything else for that
matter), just that I'd feel we'll have a more portable design if we
don't constrain our choices now]
Nicholas Clark
essing that Dan is planning to take advantage of addition and
multiplication being commutative.
sv1->add[UNKNOWN](sv2)
swaps to
sv2->add[NUM](sv1)
(It's "obvious" in the usual way - not obvious until you see it. I've been
prodding in pp_add in perl5, so I've been thinking about these sort of
things)
Nicholas Clark
st reference, and turn any
other references to it to dust (or undef))
SMITE is hard work if you're not omniscient, as you have to go round
searching for everyone who might refer to it, or fake it by holding
a back reference to everyone who references you.
Nicholas Clark
its lessons?
Probably more useful than backwards-forwards polite, well reasoned but
ultimately theoretical arguments.
[Was it medieval scientists who preferred reasoning to experiments?]
Nicholas Clark
7;t make it faster, just claws back the
slowdown other parts of my provisional changes have made]
hangon, there was a point that was supposed to back up. Accuracy is needed,
but I fear that a single general scheme to deliver this will slow down the
common cases.
Nicholas Clark
hives, so I hope
I'm not asking an already asked question.
Nicholas Clark
On Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 06:05:30PM +, David Mitchell wrote:
> Nicholas Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:20:44PM +, David Mitchell wrote:
> > > If we assume that ints and nums are perl builtins, and that some people
> > &g
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 03:33:16PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> Good integration with source filters may well solve a large chunk of our
> little language problem. They're a pain and a half to write now but if we
> can get them easier to write that'd be a good thing. ('Specially if we can
> man
rm to standard C.
>
> - Damien
Not sure if it's what prompted you to say this, but perl5-porters has
recently turned up one such system, Cray PVP (SV1 or YMP)
It doesn't like casting between data pointers and function pointers:
http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2000-12/msg00558.html
Nicholas Clark
ess $c has overloaded =
this is probably a language issue, and waiting on the language spec
Nicholas Clark
uot;
as a prompt.
I don't think you can do that with eval in perl5, can you?
If not, it represents something new the parser will have to be able to
communicate with the outside world.
Nicholas Clark
On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:43:15PM +, Simon Cozens wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:20:07AM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > I'm assuming we're all sort of thinking that input is certainly
> > [good stuff]
Thanks, but you were supposed to tell me what I'd mis
On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:11:50PM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Nicholas Clark writes:
> > Would it be sane to get the parser to return suitable information on the
> > source to let a syntax analyser (such as a highlighting editor) know that
> > character positions
ake
longer because we're doing it less efficiently.
Just a passing thought. Extrapolated up from 1 RISC CPU I know quite well.
Nicholas Clark
e
substitution part of regex could easily be re-expressed as a series
of substr operations.
This doesn't answer the real challenge which is matching.
Nicholas Clark
arser API we'd not yet considered.
And this is the parser-api list, so it seemed very on topic.
I think I'm not wrong in saying that making the parser state totally
encapsulated makes the parser restartable and goes a long way to making
it re-entrant.
Nicholas Clark
arsers than I do. (I know nothing, so I try to keep quiet)
Nicholas Clark
LL (or "string") or something token but different from all
real numbers if the scalar isn't a number, which will prompt numeric
conversion to the best sort of number as need-be. (so "3.1 + 5i" would do
the right thing. presumably complex floating point)
And (like perl5) if you alter a numeric scalar as a string, it
becomes just a string
[so {(3.1 + 5i) . ''} is a string]
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:00:47AM -0600, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
> struct {
> IV whatitis;
more a perl5 question - why IV not int?
int might be smaller and "more natural" (your words)
eg why does looks_like_number return IV not int? and various other bits
of the perl API u
th TomC and Ilya would agree
on something - that this is not desirable behaviour
(TomC because it's not backwards compatible, Ilya because you can alter
a scalar's value as a side effect of accessing it, so what a scalar
appears to contain becomes a function of its access history, not simply
and solely what you assigned to it)
Nicholas Clark
$y'
does what you need because you actually want to do something a lot more
complex than simple "$y =~" in your expression.
Or do I guess wrong?
Nicholas Clark
e may not
be 1 top to the tree (at least for builtin numbers). Which may also hold
for strings.
> We old'ns need people that don't know "it can't be done" to tell us
> how to do it - but we reserve the right to say "we tried that it didn't
> work" too.
^ because
Nicholas Clark
On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:36:05PM +, Nick Ing-Simmons wrote:
> Nicholas Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>
> >> where it is possible to get "smart" when one arg is a "special case" of
> >> the other.
> >
> >>
ight take quite a lot of perl5
messy guts hacking to make perl5's compiler good enough to bootstrap a
clean perl6 compiler to compile the perl systems to a binary.
Nicholas Clark
ngs possible.
We seem to be arguing about the best method for making it *im*possible
to use anything but the initially-chosen-implementation language to
implement perl. This feels like a bad thing.
Nicholas Clark
the compiler
couldn't do native 32 bits.
Nicholas Clark
'I/O complete' marker so async I/O
> will work out properly.
Nicholas Clark
e
> >portable part of perl6 will have now idea how far it can go
> >with native numbers.
>
> Yes, they will. Each chip family, at least. I'm thinking we'll have a
> generic CHECK_OVERFLOW macro that's redefined on a per-CPU basis and
> handled by whoever's doing the port for that system, with some generic
Were you (both) meaning integer, floating point, or both sorts of overflow
detection here?
Nicholas Clark
ndlers other than default or ignore assigned to it.
Would that be an acceptable perl5 compromise?
[follow up to p5p please]
Nicholas Clark
eir new equivalent) as buffers for the IO system rather than
plain pointers and lengths, then I'd consider it sensible to consider this
design goal met if async i/o subsystem has a dependency on the scalar buffer
subsystem (or at least one part of it, as SVs in turn might make requirements
on memory allocation APIs). That's still not the whole perl runtime though.
Nicholas Clark
going to do this for the general case)
(java does do it, but as it's all going through Java's windowing library,
the implementation know where the windowing system calls are going to be)
Upshot is that threading can be written if need be, so that's one less
(admittedly now obscure) platform that isn't excluded by threading.
Nicholas Clark
ot;sleep" is often implemented using
"alarm".
So on a system that can't do a subsecond sleep, you do the integer sleep
and return (aargh, C and perl differ) how long you slept for.
How does the program discover if sleep can do subseconds?
use Config; ?
Nicholas Clark
ully, make it load faster.
I agree
dbmopen() already loads AnyDBM_File to do the real work without the
user (or script) knowing, so this idea could be extended.
Nicholas Clark
module%s\nchance of it all working %2g%%\n", $b, $n, ($n == 1 ? "" : "s"), ($b/100) **
$n * 100' 90 4
Proportion of stuff still working 90%
4 modules
chance of it all working 65.61%
[OK, not strictly fair, as 4 modules are not independent variables - they
may all happen to fall over on the same thing]
Changes have compound effects.
Nicholas Clark
right in
Makefile.PL]
and so on. But this has the disadvantage that you don't know how much
you're letting yourself in for (in terms of new modules) until you've
already started committing them to your installed tree.
Nicholas Clark
to the vtable code, too)
It's certainly possibly to read raw memory with suitable (ab)use
of pack and unpack in perl (P and p)
I can't remember if it's possible to write to raw memory, and I'm
not currently on an operating system where I can test this sensibly.
But it's not obvious, safe or portable.
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:15:41PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:30:24PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> >
> > > sub has_post_blocks{
> > > my $i = 3;
> > &
been suggested, with the speed up hack for the common case.
Nicholas Clark
the inside of another integer
scalar looks like, and that 2 + 3 doesn't overflow.
Hmm. += isn't another opcode
it's a special case of a = b + c where the PMCs for a and b are the same
thing. And I see no real reason why it can't be part of the + entry.
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:19:16PM +, David Mitchell wrote:
> Nicholas Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mused:
> > On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:03:49PM +, David Mitchell wrote:
> > > BTW, should the vtable include all the mutator operators too, ie
> > > ++, +=
ld be implemented by pushing the post block onto the list of things
> to do at scope exit, at run time.
I quite like this idea. (I certainly like the ability to say "clean up this
thing at the end of scope whatever exceptions may happen)
But part of me feels it should be a POST block.
Because it's behaving much like CHECK or END
Nicholas Clark
owards being able to do this (see the experimental
PerlIO::gzip on CPAN for gunzip in a perlio layer)
4: Can't do XS
5: not sure if it's a sick hack or an elegant hack
It is also possible to place the include zipfile on the end of the perl
executable and put $^X in @INC to make a 1 file perl distribution, but
I don't think anyone ever tried this
Nicholas Clark
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 10:59:00PM -0600, David L. Nicol wrote:
> Nicholas Clark wrote:
>
> > on the other hand, I'll argue the other side that
> >
> > {
> > my $flag
> > open FOO, " > ...
> > }
> > post {
> > close
On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:24:27PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 06:12 PM 2/7/2001 +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >But I don't like the thought of going in and out of a lot of generic
> >routines for
> >
> >$a = 3;
> >$a += 2;
> >
> >when t
On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 12:41:34PM -0500, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 05:39 PM 2/8/2001 +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> >Do we really want to use tar format (over say cpio) as tar rounds files
> >up to 512 block boundaries, and has some arbitrary restrictions on filename
> >l
ot
> inappropriate, assuming we can get permission. )
Do we really want to use tar format (over say cpio) as tar rounds files
up to 512 block boundaries, and has some arbitrary restrictions on filename
lengths in the headers?
Nicholas Clark
ess zip entries via regular
perl filehandles. (In theory this could let you run scripts direct out of a
zip without actually unpacking them anywhere)
Layers of some form are needed in perl6 to cope with utf8 and other
encodings, so I would expect the perl6 layer functionality can also be
extended to zip manipulations.
Nicholas Clark
is true for memory.
reduce, reuse, recycle.
The first R might also be important :-)
Nicholas Clark
nu tar.
"Get New Utilities" as I've heard it called by the advocates.
(yes, I get irritated when I forget that BSD cp doesn't have a -a flag)
However, in our portability quest "Get New Utilities" is not good
[unless we package TomC's Perl Power Tools and just use those]
Nicholas Clark
t; As I said on this I disagree.
>
> I have no problem with in the first implementation round doing just zip:
> what I abhor is the idea of hardwiring the zip assumption deeply into
> our design.
I would agree - hardwiring is to be avoided.
Nicholas Clark
On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:25:42PM -0600, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
> I assume the next logical thing to add would be MD5?
Yes, well before zip (IMHO). It would make CPAN.pm a happy bunny, and should
make the world (feel) more secure.
This is now really perl5 isn't it?
Nicholas Clark
m.
how very unix - combine small tools to get a job done :-)
]
Nicholas Clark
t see why we need to decide on actual format right now. Surely
what we want to be able to do with it is more important?
2: Is this really still language? If not, where should we be discussing it?
Nicholas Clark
ules that expect to be able to seek
I've not yet met any of them
Autoloader works no problem once all the .al files are in a zip
(it uses require)
s/zip/something else/g to generalise
Nicholas Clark
On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:14:58PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:45:17PM +0000, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > When I last tried it (over a year ago) running the 5.005 regression tests
> > with the standard libraries coming out of a zip file took about th
ttleneck is
I suspect that perlbench would also not object to OO code for benchmarking.
Nicholas Clark
actually make writing perl scripts easier. You'd know when your
disk became full (or you went over quota), albeit in with a messy error.
OK, script crashing with an uncaught exception isn't nice, but it's nicer
than silently losing data IMHO.
Nicholas Clark
dup because it stops AUTOLOAD being invoked to search for
one.
Nicholas Clark
I've never actually seen any code that makes
> use of it. I have grown somewhat tired of writing, and teaching, "return
> if $AUTOLOAD =~ /:DESTROY$/", however.
Doesn't
sub DESTROY {}
have the same effect but with less typing?
Nicholas Clark
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