- On Jun 5, 2022, at 6:17 PM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote:
Hi,
> Harold Feld did a much better job in November:
>
> https://wetmachine.com/tales-of-the-sausage-factory/what-the-eff-faa-my-insanely-long-field-guide-to-the-faa-fcc-5g-c-band-fight/
Right. From his article:
> But in any e
Dave Taht wrote:
Looking back 10 years, I was saying the same things, only then I felt
it was 25Mbit circa mike belshe's paper. So real bandwidth
requirements only doubling every decade might be a new equation to
think about...
Required resolution of pictures is bounded by resolution of our
ey
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 5:47 AM Masataka Ohta
wrote:
>
> Dave Taht wrote:
>
> > Looking back 10 years, I was saying the same things, only then I felt
> > it was 25Mbit circa mike belshe's paper. So real bandwidth
> > requirements only doubling every decade might be a new equation to
> > think about
"So what happens if the Next Big Thing..."
I see this said a lot, but it doesn't really mean anything. We are sufficiently
close to whatever is likely to come that it can come and bandwidths will have
to catch up upon its launch. If we're not that close, then it's unrealistic to
pre-build cap
But, presumably, the carriers/providers do have the data.
I've heard it suggested (Vint Cerf to broadband.money) that *any* public
funding of ISPs should be contingent on them providing it to the regulators.
joly
On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 11:40 AM Sean Donelan wrote:
>
> Look at the difficulty t
On Mon Jun 06, 2022 at 08:06:50AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
> "So what happens if the Next Big Thing..."
I find it sad that so many would argue for never needing anything
more than we have today. It's like why did we bother coming out of
the trees, or the oceans even (yes Apple digital watches a
" I find it sad that so many would argue for never needing anything
more than we have today."
Few to none are doing that. Upgrades are an organic part of the process. Some
places they're hard, but most places they're comparatively easy. Let's stop
putting the cart before the horse just to fee
And here are some actual test results:
https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SC-239-5G-Interference-Assessment-Report_274-20-PMC-2073_accepted_changes.pdf
People who understand radios don't think much of that report or the
similar AVSI one. If its claims were true, planes would be f
>
>
> For a long time now...
>
> I have had the opinion that we have reached the age of "peak
> bandwidth", that nearly nobody's 4 person home needs more than 50Mbit
> with good queue management. Certainly increasing upload
> speeds dramatically (and making static IP addressing and saner
> firewall
On 6/6/22 10:56 AM, Casey Russell via NANOG wrote:
For a long time now...
I have had the opinion that we have reached the age of "peak
bandwidth", that nearly nobody's 4 person home needs more than 50Mbit
with good queue management. Certainly increasing upload
speeds dramat
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 7:46 AM Mike Hammett wrote:
>
> "I find it sad that so many would argue for never needing anything
> more than we have today."
My principal argument is that we've made a huge mistake with buffering
in general, all fixed now by various RFCs and widely
available source code,
If you want to argue that a bigger number is better, sure.
However, regulatory definitions and funding has real meaning.
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com
- Original Message -
From: "Casey Russell v
> On Jun 6, 2022, at 09:55, John R. Levine wrote:
>
> Five years ago everyone knew that C band was coming. A reasonable response
> would have been for the FAA to work with the FCC to figure out which
> altimeters might be affected (old cruddy ones, we now know), and come up with
> a plan and
On 6/6/22 07:55, John R. Levine wrote:
Five years ago everyone knew that C band was coming. A reasonable
response would have been for the FAA to work with the FCC to figure
out which altimeters might be affected (old cruddy ones, we now know),
and come up with a plan and schedule to replace
To be honest, I don't know, I'm not a money person, I just turn knobs. But
apparently it costs more than $130 billion dollars. In the US alone.
That's what USAC has distributed to carriers in the US in the last 20
years. Last year was north of 8 billion. That's just USAC and that's just
for get
USF money is about the bottom 1% not the top 1%.
I wouldn't be surprised if every Zuckerberg mansion worldwide has a
multi-gig connection to support his Metaverse.
The top 50% will continue to drive innovation (and bandwidth demand).
Broadband service providers claim no ROI to build-out (re
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, Casey Russell via NANOG wrote:
To be honest, I don't know, I'm not a money person, I just turn knobs. But
apparently it costs more than $130 billion dollars. In the US alone.
If I had a magic wand, I would have a separate cap on each USF program
including the High Co
On Mon Jun 06, 2022 at 09:44:20AM -0500, Mike Hammett wrote:
> " I find it sad that so many would argue for never needing anything
> more than we have today."
>
> Few to none are doing that.
I must have read different posts.
> Upgrades are an organic part of the process. Some places they're
>
On 2022-06-06 11:32 a.m., Casey Russell via NANOG wrote:
But my point was only that if we keep arguing against change and
against pushing barriers, then we are what customers (or members) say
we are. obstinate, greedy, uncooperative, and unsupportive of their
goals. I don't think you're a
Here’s the problem
FCC ignored the rest of the world and EU’s 5G deployment in the rest of
the world 5G base stations have half the EIRP of their US counterparts and
the antenna systems use downtilt so 5G coverage on the ground is better and
RADALT operation is largely unaffected except for helic
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, Kord Martin wrote:
After years and years of being told why it's not feasible to build out
infrastructure upgrades to provide internet service, once I started to work
in the industry it was pretty shocking to see how customers are actually
treated. It's tough to gather cont
On 6/6/22 6:06 AM, Dave Taht wrote:
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 5:47 AM Masataka Ohta
wrote:
Dave Taht wrote:
Looking back 10 years, I was saying the same things, only then I felt
it was 25Mbit circa mike belshe's paper. So real bandwidth
requirements only doubling every decade might be a new eq
On 6/6/22 7:56 AM, Casey Russell via NANOG wrote:
For a long time now...
I have had the opinion that we have reached the age of "peak
bandwidth", that nearly nobody's 4 person home needs more than 50Mbit
with good queue management. Certainly increasing upload
speeds dramat
Is it? I mean, as an industry, we already recognize that the average user
downloads approx. 5 times more than they upload. In fact, we use it to
bash users who want a synchronous speed... tell them that's unreasonable.
I get your point, that if you try to use the outliers corner cases as your
"m
On 6/6/22 10:40 AM, Casey Russell wrote:
Is it? I mean, as an industry, we already recognize that the average
user downloads approx. 5 times more than they upload. In fact, we use
it to bash users who want a synchronous speed... tell them that's
unreasonable.
I get your point, that if you
Once upon a time, Michael Thomas said:
> I meant downloads as in gigantic games. If you give them more
> bandwidth it just encourages the game makes to build bigger game
> downloads.
I don't buy that - users are still constrained on storage, especially on
consoles.
--
Chris Adams
Agreed, even with a 16TB drive, that's only 16000*8 ~= 128000 seconds of
1-gigabit download rate (under 36 hours) :)
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 2:26 PM Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Michael Thomas said:
> > I meant downloads as in gigantic games. If you give them more
> > bandwidth it just
is gatekeeping what users MIGHT do, and/or deciding based on corner cases
helpful to this discussion?
(this isn't meant as a note directly to dorn, just a convenient place to
interject)
Aside from planning based on a formula like Jason Livingood's plan... OR
based on build/deploy/upgrade costs int
How many times have I seen an installer only download the parts it needs
vs just reinstall the next version right over top of the existing
version? I know stuff like xplane seems to do a comparison of file
signatures and only downloads the changed parts for the updates between
whatever version
On 6/6/22 11:45 AM, Dorn Hetzel wrote:
Agreed, even with a 16TB drive, that's only 16000*8 ~= 128000 seconds
of 1-gigabit download rate (under 36 hours) :)
This whole thread is about hypothetical futures, so it's not hard to
imagine downloads filling to available capacity.
Mike
On Mon,
On 6/6/22 12:00 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
is gatekeeping what users MIGHT do, and/or deciding based on corner
cases helpful to this discussion?
(this isn't meant as a note directly to dorn, just a convenient place
to interject)
Aside from planning based on a formula like Jason Livingood'
" I must have read different posts."
More likely, a lack of understanding. There's a difference between, "No one
should have this" and "the government shouldn't be paying for people to have
this at this time."
"fortunate few who happen to be in the
good locations"
Most people live i
Happy customers are also good for business.
K
From: NANOG On Behalf Of
Mike Hammett
Sent: June 6, 2022 4:55 PM
To: Brandon Butterworth
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: FCC proposes higher speed goals (100/20 Mbps) for USF providers
"I must have read different posts."
More
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 4:37 PM Michael Thomas wrote:
>
> On 6/6/22 12:00 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
> > is gatekeeping what users MIGHT do, and/or deciding based on corner
> > cases helpful to this discussion?
> > (this isn't meant as a note directly to dorn, just a convenient place
> > to int
>This whole thread is about hypothetical futures, so it's not hard to imagine
>downloads filling to available capacity.
>Mike
So, a good example of how this capacity is used, In New Zealand we have a
pretty broad fibre network covering most of the population. My niece asked me
to share my
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 3:38 PM Tony Wicks wrote:
>
> >This whole thread is about hypothetical futures, so it's not hard to imagine
> >downloads filling to available capacity.
>
> >Mike
>
>
>
> So, a good example of how this capacity is used, In New Zealand we have a
> pretty broad fibre network
On 6/6/22 3:36 PM, Tony Wicks wrote:
>This whole thread is about hypothetical futures, so it's not hard to
imagine downloads filling to available capacity.
>Mike
So, a good example of how this capacity is used, In New Zealand we
have a pretty broad fibre network covering most of the popula
>To finish up the math here, how much did NZ's fiber buildout cost?
I'm not suggesting that the US could build such a network, just that if its
available it certainly opens up new levels of convenience and smooth use of the
applications. I think it was something like $2-3B USD, don't quote me
* Do you have any stats on what the average usage was before and after
the build out? I'd expect it to go up just because but was it dramatic?
Well, Back in the FTTC days of ADSL/VDSL (very little cable) as an ISP I seem
to remember the average home connection was about 1.2Mb/s. Now
On 6/6/22 4:08 PM, Tony Wicks wrote:
* Do you have any stats on what the average usage was before and
after the build out? I'd expect it to go up just because but was
it dramatic?
Well, Back in the FTTC days of ADSL/VDSL (very little cable) as an ISP
I seem to remember the average h
Some usage data:
On a rural FTTX XGS-PON network with primarily 1Gig symmetric customers, I
see about 1.5mbit/customer average inbound across 7 days, peaks at about
10mbit/customer, with 1 minute polling. Zero congestion in middle mile,
transit or peering.
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 7:09 PM Tony Wic
On 6/6/22 4:27 PM, Jim Troutman wrote:
Some usage data:
On a rural FTTX XGS-PON network with primarily 1Gig symmetric
customers, I see about 1.5mbit/customer average inbound across 7 days,
peaks at about 10mbit/customer, with 1 minute polling. Zero
congestion in middle mile, transit or pee
+1 on symmetrical connections. On this corner of the planet many
(incumbent) ISPs which provide fiber service, throttle the uplink like
100/10 Mbit/s. There is no technical reason for the uplink limitation - the
ISPs are protecting their higher-revenue business label services. 10 Mbit/s
uplink is O
Dave Taht wrote:
"New Zealand is approximately 268,838 sq km, while United States is
approximately 9,833,517 sq km, making United States 3,558% larger
than New Zealand. Meanwhile, the population of New Zealand is ~4.9
million people (327.7 million more people live in United States)."
That NZ
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