Re: [marxmail] What if Marx had emigrated to Texas?

If Marx had moved to Texas he would have had to leave along with many of the other Germans who lived there because of the Civil War. The Germans were mostly Unionists. In the Hill country town of Comfort, a large group of Germans were on their way out to join the Union forces and were caught by

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

How to Use Confessions Presenting evidence tracked down in various archives, Bobrov and Furr prove that Pyatnitsky and company did conspire. Since conspirators do not write down their conspiracy, the authors lay out the dense tangle of confessions by many persons. Many historians refuse to exa

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 02:52 PM, wrote: > > Examples, please, where tactical support was made, where it led to working > class self-organization, in the last 75 years, and LRP agreed with that > specific tactical alliance. Walter, maybe you missed it.  Got any fries to go with that shake? -=

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

Identify the "primary documents."  "confessions" and other  testimony given during the purges. do not amount to "documents." We know where this goes:  POUM were fascists; the cordones in Chile were ultra-left adventures.  All the Bolshevik leadership of 1917 turned out to be fascists in deep co

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 09:41 PM, Charles Rachlis wrote: > > Re: Charlie’s sourcing.  None of the sources linked are primary sources. Wrong. Furr and Bobrov quote (and translate) from primary sources. The references are in their book. I in turn copied the Pyatnitsky statement here. As for Walt

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

Re: Charlie’s sourcing.  None of the sources linked are primary sources.  As for Trotsky’s statement on transitioning off of the NEP booster shot there was nothing Charlie quoted that even minutely indicates Trotsky was arguing for expanding market relations let alone restoring capitalism. Charl

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

David-- because he confessed to  being Trotsky's comrade; just like all the  old Bolsheviks confessed to being Nazis.  Just like Zinoviev and Kamenev plotted Kirov's murder; just like immigrants are eating house pets in   Ohio. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages s

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

BTW...what makes you think he was a "comrade" of Trotsky's? Can't find much on him that would indicate this. David -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#32975): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/32975 Mute This Topic: https:

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 01:36 PM, Mark Lause wrote: > > Confusing the electoral vaIidation of any wing of the ruling class with a > victory for the masses reflects a stupifying misunderstanding. No one misunderstands or has said that a Harris win over Trump would represent "a victory for the ma

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

* "You didn't provide a document,  you provide a reference to a book by Grover Furr." Wrong. I directly quoted a source document. * "You might as well produce Bukharin's confession; or the indictments of Zinoviev and Kamenev by Yezhov. What is the source document that has some verification fro

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 07:16 PM, Charlie wrote: > > Well, above I quoted a document in which Trotsky's comrade in the > Comintern laid out undoing socialism and going over to capitalism. "IIRC" > does not stand up You didn't  provide a document,  you provide a reference to a book by Grover Fur

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:39 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: > > I don't need to be told about the need to take into account the > relationship of forces in a labour or any other conflict. But apparently he does need to be told 1) about uneven and combined development and 2) the distinction between se

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 07:05 PM, wrote: > > IIRC not a single document made available after the collapse of the Soviet > regime has provided  factual evidence for Furr's accusations. Well, above I quoted a document in which Trotsky's comrade in the Comintern laid out undoing socialism and goi

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

Grover Furr is the problem. IIRC not a single document made available after the collapse of the Soviet regime has provided  factual evidence for Furr's accusations. Grover Furr over here. vote for Dems over there,  what a  big tent this list is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You rec

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

Voting for Harris as a tactical act of desperation to support the victory of a lesser evil wing of the ruling class over Trump is one thing. Confusing the electoral vaIidation of any wing of the ruling class with a victory for the masses reflects a stupifying misunderstanding. > _._,_._,_ > > -

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

> On Oct 17, 2024, at 12:32 PM, David Walters via groups.io > wrote: > > Mark, what do you mean by this statement > "...the debate over whether to vote for the Democrats is irrelevant since it > is already decided who will win in most US states." > David Hi David, I was paraphrasing another

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

> On Oct 17, 2024, at 11:47 AM, sartesian via groups.io > wrote: > > Mendacious Marv Taking a page from Trump's playbook? Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#32965): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/32965 Mute

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

Steve, interesting prognostication. I don't see any of what you say actually happening. Yes, there will be *some* realignment...the last big one was between 1980 and 1982 when the "Reagan Revolution" occurred and a swath of reactionary Democratic senators from the South (and one from Colorado) c

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

On 10/17/2024 12:18 PM PDT Marv Gandall wrote: Quite possibly, although a third possibility is that a Trump defeat will give the establishment Republicans the pretext they need to crack down on the MAGA movement in order to restore the party's electability through someone perceived as more "m

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 03:29 PM, David Walters wrote: > > At no point did Trotsky or the Left Opposition call for or advocate the > "restoration of capitalism". Made up from the minds or sycophants of > Grover Furr. I linked to the quoted documentation of Pyatnitsky laying out what amounts to

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

Mark, what do you mean by this statement > > "...the debate over whether to vote for the Democrats is irrelevant since > it is already decided who will win in most US states." > David > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Onl

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

At no point did Trotsky or the Left Opposition call for or advocate the "restoration of capitalism". Made up from the minds or sycophants of Grover Furr. Criticizing the methods of the Soviet Bureaucracy doesn't amount to capitalist restoration. Secondly, the first Time Trotsky or the Internati

Re: [marxmail] Pro-Trump "socialists" channel the history of "Third Period Communism"

First, a detail. Your blog article says, "What MAGA lacks is a mass, organized personally controlled fascist militia like the Nazi SS was." That would be the SA under Ernst Röhm. Second, you go on about the fact that MAGA does not have millions like the SA had, that the main U.S. capitalists su

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 09:16 AM, Jim Farmelant wrote: > > >> I see massive demoralization and cynicism and withdrawal from political >> activism – a disaster for the Left since the far right will not be >> demoralized but emboldened. > > Unfortunately, the last alternative appears to be the mo

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 11:46 AM, Walter Daum wrote: > > But they did not rule out tactical support for bourgeois parties who > defended, for their own reasons, democratic rights that the working class > needed for its self-organization. Examples, please, where tactical support was made, where i

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

Exactly.   What Lenin and Trotsky thought 70 years before the event has no bearing on historical materialism or their grasp of the problems that led to the collapse.  It's historical materialism; not clairvoyance. Mendacious Marv was surprised?  Ten years after Solidarity erupted in Poland; aft

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

I hope this is not the kiss of death, but Walter Daum's comment is a succinct debunking of the myth that it is unprincipled to support a bourgeois party at any time and in any circumstance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (

Re: [marxmail] What if Marx had emigrated to Texas?

I predict that he would have moved to St. Louis Missouri, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans_in_the_American_Civil_War, hopefully before being massacred by Confederates, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueces_massacre. Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive al

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 08:51 AM, wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:56 AM, Marv Gandall wrote: > >> I was replying to Artesian's comment that, unlike Lenin, Trotsky, and the >> Bolsheviks who took power, a true historical materialist would have >> understood from the outset that the USSR co

Re: [marxmail] What if Marx had emigrated to Texas?

I sort of envision that if Marx had emigrated to Texas, he would have looked something what is depicted in Louis Proyect's image. https://louisproyect.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/roosterbeau-copy.jpg?w=768&h=978 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

Well, by 1932, Trotsky was arguing for the indispensibility of market relations under socialism. See his piece The Soviet Economy in Danger (October 1932) ( https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1932/10/sovecon.htm ). There, he was arguing: > > > > "In this connection three systems must b

Re: [marxmail] What if Marx had emigrated to Texas?

Marx was German. Texas had and has a historic German community that came into the state in the 1830s and they still speak their Texan German. So. I guess. He might have built his ranch and joined a German emigre community or moved to San Antonio and played in a polka band. Erik On Wed, Oct 16, 2

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:15 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: > > Trotsky, however, thought the restoration of capitalism was the least > likely outcome. Instead, he expected that the impending world war would > usher in the world revolution, including in the Soviet Union... Got any documentation of wha

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

Dennis, please. I'm the one insisting you can't fault the Bolshevks or anyone else for taking a well calculated. risk that turns out to be wrong - except in retrospect, and I don't need to be told about the need to take into account the relationship of forces in a labour or any other conflict.

Re: [marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

It seems that Marv wants a guarantee in advance of the inevitable victory of socialist revolution. There are no guarantees in life. Even workers determined to strike against their boss can lose, but they (hopefully) make and strengthen alliances before launching their strike. The same goes for the

Re: [marxmail] if Harris wins

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:00 PM, Dennis Brasky wrote: > > Either the young will abandon the Dems and demand that labor and the left > form a new party that, which at first would probably be more > social-democratic than radical, will be take clear progressive positions, > o r in the event that n

[marxmail] Capitalist restoration (Was Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil)

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 08:36 AM, Dennis Brasky wrote: > > Trotsky criticized this as a denial of material reality and never expected > it to survive, even in a deformed and degenerated state, stressing that > the only force that the USSR could really rely upon and trust was the > working class o

[marxmail] if Harris wins

> > I seriously hope and predict (but not support) a Harris victory over > Trump. I will eagerly await the reactions of progressives – especially the > young – who are so excited today with her "differences" with Trump > (conveniently ignoring her support from non-Trump war criminals like W Bush >

Re: [marxmail] Pro-Trump "socialists" channel the history of "Third Period Communism"

Where is leftist trainspotters when you need them? Thanks for this information. SR > On 10/17/2024 8:49 AM PDT Jim Farmelant wrote: > > > Just to update some of the information about Kshama Sawant. She is more > accurately described as a former council member since her term had expired >

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:56 AM, Marv Gandall wrote: > > I was replying to Artesian's comment that, unlike Lenin, Trotsky, and the > Bolsheviks who took power, a true historical materialist would have > understood from the outset that the USSR could not survive I never said any such thing.  Mar

Re: [marxmail] Pro-Trump "socialists" channel the history of "Third Period Communism"

Just to update some of the information about Kshama Sawant. She is more accurately described as a former council member since her term had expired earlier this year and she had decline to run for reelection. Also, this year she left Socialist Alternative, of which she had been a longtime member

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

In the LRP article from 2020 that Charles refers to, we challenged proponents of the so-called principle of never voting for bourgeois parties to find wherever such a principle was declared by Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin or Trotsky. Louis Proyect brought up Marx’s 1850 Address to the Communis

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

As I recall, both Lenin and Trotsky were certain that the revolution could not possibly survive if the working class in West Europe - especially Germany - didn't take power and assist backward, isolated Russia. They had no doubt that soon it would be extinguished by the small size of the proletaria

[marxmail] Pro-Trump "socialists" channel the history of "Third Period Communism"

Councilmember Kshama Sawant , leader of "Workers Strike Back", recently called for the election of Trump in

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

And my reply to Gojko, which can also serve as a reply to Artesian and others who say "the Bolsheviks should have known better." https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/29583 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#32937): https://g

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 01:00 AM, John Edmundson wrote: > > Trotsky died 50 years before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Any > 'expectations' he might have had in the1940s for a progressive result in > the USSR have absolutely no bearing on what happened in 1989. > Neither his nor our expecta

[marxmail] How climate change destroyed a tar sands boomtown

Fire Weather: A remarkable account of the reality of disaster in modern neoliberal society https://climateandcapitalism.com/2024/10/16/fire-weather-how-climate-change-destroyed-an-oil-rich-city/ Ian Angus Editor, Climate & Capitalism https://climateandcapitalism.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Grou

[marxmail] The Gazafication of Lebanon: Israel Blows up Nabatieh City Hall, kills Mayor and Aid Workers

The Israeli military has begun giving southern Lebanon the Gaza treatment. Some 25% of Lebanese are under “evacuation orders,” which is to say that Israel is expelling them from their homes in preparation for further military operations against the Hezbollah Party-Militia. The U.N. Humanitarian Co

Re: [marxmail] US election: Defeat Trump --Vote for the lesser evil

Marv, Trotsky died 50 years before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Any 'expectations' he might have had in the1940s for a progressive result in the USSR have absolutely no bearing on what happened in 1989. Comradely, John -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent t