Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Both your and Jon's responses are helpful. I'm still very confused about the difference between triviality and degeneracy. FWIW, I dug up the concept of "degeneracy pressure" . Am I talking about that? I think so, in some weird way. Claiming you c

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Reply is to both Jon and Glen, though I seem to have deleted Glen’s post in scurrying around trying to shovel the lahar of whichever day it was (are there even different days, or is it just one long day run together?)…. Again, I feel like I am not tracking the language here, so I don’t know if

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Hi Jon, I must have missed the thread where you linked to the Collier video, but I think I found the one you are referring to. Also didn’t know who Griffiths was/is (textbook writer; I turned out not to have used any of his books), but now realize what those mentions refer to. (I had imagined

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

"Degenerate constructs like a 1 group symmetry feel, to me, like metaphysical commitments..." Glen, In an attempt to understand Eric's response to me, I got to reading this group-theory dense paper reasoning with kernels and strata about spontaneous symmetry breaking[1]. It got me understanding y

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

I simply meant to challenge the conception of symmetry in the same way a circle with 0 area but finite radius is a line segment. A rigid paddle embedded in a rigid medium isn't really a "paddle in a medium" ... it's a ... what? ... a sculpture that invokes, metaphorically, a paddle in a medium.

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Eric, Thanks for the thoughtful response. I have always felt like a physics tourist, even in my earlier days as a fly-on-the-wall in Dan Freed's TQFT seminars in the RLM building. I couldn't agree more about Purcell, and I still have my mom's copy from when I was a kid. Rasmus has loaned me Jackso

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

For explanations of all those rules see Sprites, Glymour and Scheines "Causation, Prediction and Search" second edition, MIT Press, 2001. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Aug 20, 2024, 9:26 PM glen wrote: > I'll see your bet with:

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

I'll see your bet with: On August 20, 2024 5:59:20 PM PDT, Frank Wimberly wrote: >https://books.google.com/books?id=ccFHXMDXFdEC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&dq=Causation+and+Explanation+Campbell,+O%27Rourke,+

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

https://books.google.com/books?id=ccFHXMDXFdEC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&dq=Causation+and+Explanation+Campbell,+O%27Rourke,+Silverstein&hl=en&source=gb_mobile_entity#v=onepage&q=Causation%20and%20Explanation%20Campbell%2C%20O'Rourke%2C%20Silverstein&f=false --- Frank C. Wimberly 1

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

> I hate thought experiments. But I need this one. See: Book Chapter3: Actual Causes and Thought Experiments By Clark Glymour , Frank Wimberly MIT Press 2007 --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Aug 20, 2024, 2:53 PM Santafe wrote:

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Second inadequate reply, to Glen, unhappily similar to the first to Jon: > On Aug 19, 2024, at 23:37, glen wrote: > There's so much I'd like to say in response to 3 things: 1) to formalize and > fail is human, 2) necessary (□) vs possible (◇) languages, and 3) principle > vs generic/privied

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Jon, hi and thank you for this. I guess two inadequate replies from me, one to you and one to Glen, because I don’t think I have the content that would be needed for any substantive contribution. I have seen these maps from particular computational systems to categories, and I work with somebo

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Eric, Apologies right off, the following analysis is for myself and probably should be kept to myself. On the one hand, I am struggling to learn a particular formalism. On the other hand, I am struggling to get better at understanding what it is that people I admire appear to be doing. The formali

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Back to Nick, This business of, out of the variety of frames and points of view that could be taken on anything, gradually making it clear that a certain PoV is the center of a concept, and then requiring that we “get used to” seeing the concept through that point of view, is indeed what the s

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

I am wondering, as I read the several posts in this list, how much there is an always-present or always-latent human intuition that keeps trying to unpack itself into formalism, but then leaves the formalizer unsatisfied, with the intuition still in place, so we try again, and go around the tree

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Think how multiple sound making entities "combine" "fuse" to produce Eroica in the ears-brains of an listener. Now imagine something akin but in multiple dimensions as hundreds of thousands of simultaneous inputs combine/fuse to create the illusion of self and consciousness. davew On Thu, Aug

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

, 2024 at 9:54 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list... IDK. It's useful to remind oneself how batshit everyone (including oneself from years ago or years from now) is. It's only frustrating when you're, as Steve put it, high on your own sup

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

"I feel I should scream on Eric’s behalf." Yeah, someone should. I unfortunately cannot. I spent a bit of time in my early twenties hitchhiking throughout North America, which often led to traveling between American festival culture loci. While I feel my orientation/attitude traveling was a bit m

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

This one was teased by: “ I can feel the neurons in my brain struggling and striving. Yes, I can feel it. Now you think I’m crazy.” Anne Carson has Parkinson’s https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n16/anne-carson/gloves-on This and the link to noema both came from https://www.aldaily.com/, Arts

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Roger, I start our reading these sorrs of articles in good faith but always bog down because I deeply don't understand the hankering that would make the project interesting. It always sees to boil down to some desire to determine what in good conscience we can eat. For me, there is nothing that

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

I feel I should scream on Eric’s behalf. From: Friam On Behalf Of Santafe Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2024 9:31 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list... Cool. Nepal even has mystical hillsides. My colleage

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Yeah, I thought about using "fusing", rather than "fusion", to emphasize that I think we're mistaken when we talk of objects/things. Consciousness is no more an object/thing than a river. It's all processes all the way down. On 8/15/24 08:16, Stephen Guerin wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 7:3

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

On Thu, Aug 15, 2024 at 7:39 AM glen wrote: > That's why I prefer "fusion". The ganglia (~2 in humans, ~9 in octopuses?) > execute functions broadly describable as fusion. But our gut ganglion most > likely fuses different perception signals from that of our brains. The > fusion in an octopus' ce

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Cool. Nepal even has mystical hillsides. My colleage The Mystic has informed me that only we (in “the west” in “the modern era") are degraded and malformed people; all other cultures have Wisdom Traditions. So any child in one of those Other Cultures already has an understanding of Reality th

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

https://www.noemamag.com/exploring-the-boundaries-of-consciousness/ Whaddya know, its on topic. -- rec -- On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 2:11 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > Claude remarks: > > > > << Good Soldier Švejk might respond to questions about consciousness and > information determinism with a se

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Claude remarks: << Good Soldier Švejk might respond to questions about consciousness and information determinism with a seemingly irrelevant anecdote, perhaps about a drunk man convinced his goldfish was controlling his thoughts through "information in the water." >> smime.p7s Descr

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Ha. I can't help but render explicit the dovetail with "When are telic attributions appropriate in physical descriptions?". After all, they are "*The Fateful* Adventures of the Good Soldier Švejk During the World War". According to Wikipedia on the matter, """ Hašek originally intended Švejk to co

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Suddenly I have an idea. Somebody should launch a bot named Svejk. Eric > I don't need the sinister "What are you doing Dave?" of HAL but I do get very > tired of it's obsequiousness, it takes work to balance that I could put maybe > more productively in seeking a more genuine "coherence"? >

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

The earliest instances of LLMs apparently did not have this kind of obsequiousness. I remember reading about people getting (I think it was v.1, or beta, of chatGPT) getting crafting long conversations on "dark' topics. One in particular involved the LLM becoming a very convincing, so the story

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

Marcus wrote: The recent results about AI Models collapsing when trained on recursively generated data seems to me to apply to this kind of human political activity as well. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y I think the MAGA machine is collapsing under this weight as we spe

Re: [FRIAM] This makes me think of this list...

I suspect LLMs like Grok trained on social media would compress millions of people down to a relatively small number of representative patterns. When debating topics on, say, Nextdoor, I find conversations have a predictable decision-tree type property. The more people in the thread the less nu