On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 12:16:12PM -0700, Jos Backus wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 01:34:07PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
[snip]
> > > > How about portability - can I move the file to a completely
> > > > different architecture and still get the data from it?
[snip]
The answer ("Yes") can be found
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > > But you said you were interested in working on it...so what is your
> > > idea?
> > Actually, I said it's on my list of things to do.
> You might have meant this, but to quote what you actually said:
> --
> But hey, if there's a
3) As DES pointed out, the package tools must be able
to read the metadata before the files.
Actually, the argument is pretty weak. Being able to extract them
streamable and access the meta-data easily is fine. The remote access
argument is very weak as it doesn't allow e.g. signature checks.
On Sat, May 12, 2007 at 12:55:44AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > > There are clearly other workable ideas - as I said, the linux folks
> > > managed to make it work. But it's not an easy problem. I certainly
> > > wouldn't suggest re
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > There are clearly other workable ideas - as I said, the linux folks
> > managed to make it work. But it's not an easy problem. I certainly
> > wouldn't suggest rebuilding the packaging system to deal with this,
> > except as part
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > There are clearly other workable ideas - as I said, the linux folks
> > managed to make it work. But it's not an easy problem. I certainly
> > wouldn't suggest rebuilding the packaging system to deal with this,
> > except as part
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:29:24PM -0300, Duane Whitty wrote:
> Is it hoped / planned that storing the metadata in a berkeley DB
> database will help with the parallelization of package building?
That's somewhat orthogonal: the problem there is mutual exclusion and
job ordering.
> In your opinio
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
You can inspect s sqlite database with the provided utility. Unless the
database gets corrupted (which it tries to avoid by respecting ACID),
ACID is not something a database "respects", it is a set of guarantees
that it provide
On Friday, 11 May 2007 at 17:28:47 -0400, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:02:31PM +0200, David Naylor wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thank you all for your responses, it has given me much to think about. I
> > guess there is consenses that there is room for improvement in the current
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michel Talon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> One of the most obvious being that the sqlite database can be edited
> as easily as a pure textfile using the sqlite3 program
Huh? They can? With a pure textfile, if vi is busted, I can use ed. If
ed is also busted, I can use sed. W
Michel Talon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Kris Kennaway explained in 4 points why a proposal to introduce a new
> package system is doomed to failure.
What the hell? You're making like any effort to improve the packaging
system is doomed to failure without SQLite.
Before you even go in to any
On 05/11/07 19:48, Jona Joachim wrote:
Ivan Voras a écrit :
David Naylor wrote:
Dear Jordan
Recently I stumbled across a document you wrote in 2001, entitled "FreeBSD
installation and package tools, past, present and future". I find FreeBSD
appealing and I would like to contribute it its s
Ivan Voras a écrit :
David Naylor wrote:
Dear Jordan
Recently I stumbled across a document you wrote in 2001, entitled "FreeBSD
installation and package tools, past, present and future". I find FreeBSD
appealing and I would like to contribute it its success, and as your article
describes, t
Kris Kennaway explained in 4 points why a proposal to introduce a new
package system is doomed to failure.
In particular he says:
> "I think your current proposal falls short on points 2) and 3). In
> particular, I don't see where SQLite is necessary to solve any
> problems we are currently facin
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:02:31PM +0200, David Naylor wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thank you all for your responses, it has given me much to think about. I
> guess there is consenses that there is room for improvement in the current
> pkg system. Attached are some of my initial ideas about what is requir
Hi,
Thank you all for your responses, it has given me much to think about. I
guess there is consenses that there is room for improvement in the current
pkg system. Attached are some of my initial ideas about what is required and
expected in any (and all future) package systems.
Since I am
On 2007-May-11 17:34:48 +0200, Joerg Sonnenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 07:58:02AM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote:
>> 3) As DES pointed out, the package tools must be able
>>to read the metadata before the files. If you really
>>need a completely separate metadata
On Friday 11 May 2007 11:34 am, Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Freddie Cash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
typed:
> > On Friday 11 May 2007 07:35 am, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > > I still think we ought to quit pretending that ports/packages
> > > aren't part of BSD, and default LOCALBASE to /usr. But
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 01:34:07PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jos Backus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:23:00AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > How robust is it - can a corrupt block fry the entire database?
> >
> > Dunno, but "Transact
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 03:07:27PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > The point is that the real problem is: "how do you arrange the bits on
> > disk", not "how do you wrap that in a package system". Until you
> > figure out a workable o
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> The point is that the real problem is: "how do you arrange the bits on
> disk", not "how do you wrap that in a package system". Until you
> figure out a workable on-disk arrangement for the files, questions
> about packaging are no
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Freddie Cash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> On Friday 11 May 2007 07:35 am, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > I still think we ought to quit pretending that ports/packages aren't
> > part of BSD, and default LOCALBASE to /usr. But if changing it is
> > being tested, that's a big help.
> P
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:35:41AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > There are a few ways you can go. The simplest is to install a
> > complete i386 world in e.g. /compat/ia32 and have i386 packages
> > installed there, and change the k
On Fri, 11 May 2007 17:14:16 +0100 (BST)
Robert Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 May 2007, Sergey Zaharchenko wrote:
>
> > bin/102747 has been sitting there for about 8 months, with no activity
> > since
> > it was assigned to brian@, all my mail to whom bounces [CC'd just in c
On Friday 11 May 2007 07:35 am, Mike Meyer wrote:
> I still think we ought to quit pretending that ports/packages aren't
> part of BSD, and default LOCALBASE to /usr. But if changing it is
> being tested, that's a big help.
Personally, this is the one thing I like *most* about BSD. There is a
cl
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jos Backus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:23:00AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> [snip]
> > How robust is it - can a corrupt block fry the entire database?
>
> Dunno, but "Transactions are atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable (ACID)
> even after s
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> Mike Meyer wrote:
>
> > Yes, they are present no matter what representation you use. The
> > question is - how do the answers change if you change the
> > format. These days, cross-platform means you deal with length as well
> > as en
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:23:00AM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
[snip]
> How robust is it - can a corrupt block fry the entire database?
Dunno, but "Transactions are atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable (ACID)
even after system crashes and power failures.". So it appears to try hard to
minimize
Mike Meyer wrote:
Yes, they are present no matter what representation you use. The
question is - how do the answers change if you change the
format. These days, cross-platform means you deal with length as well
as endian issues. Or maybe you don't, depending on the db. I know the
answers for te
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> Mike Meyer wrote:
> >> Perhaps this is a good time I should mention that I think sqlite would
> >> also be good for the password and login databases? :)
> >
> > Someone has already pointed out the horror that is the Windows
> > regist
On Thu, 10 May 2007, Sergey Zaharchenko wrote:
bin/102747 has been sitting there for about 8 months, with no activity since
it was assigned to brian@, all my mail to whom bounces [CC'd just in case].
The patch attached in the PR has been working for me since, so it not being
fixed in the mai
Mike Meyer wrote:
Perhaps this is a good time I should mention that I think sqlite would
also be good for the password and login databases? :)
Someone has already pointed out the horror that is the Windows
registry. IIUC, even MS has figured out this is a bad idea, and gotten
away from it with
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 07:58:02AM -0700, Tim Kientzle wrote:
> 3) As DES pointed out, the package tools must be able
>to read the metadata before the files. If you really
>need a completely separate metadata file, make it
>the second file in the archive.
Actually, the argument is pre
Ivan Voras wrote:
- A quick test confirms that the current bsdtar will happily ignore any
extra data at the end of a tgz/tbz archive, so package metadata can be
embedded there, thus conserving existing infrastructure...
Not a good idea at all.
1) Keeping everything within the archive makes it
> Perhaps this is a good time I should mention that I think sqlite would
> also be good for the password and login databases? :)
Someone has already pointed out the horror that is the Windows
registry. IIUC, even MS has figured out this is a bad idea, and gotten
away from it with Vista. But it's b
Quoting Dag-Erling Smørgrav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (from Fri, 11 May 2007
10:33:29 +0200):
The existence of .la files is a bug.
I fully agree.
We already have a mechanism for recording dependencies between
libraries; it's built into the ELF format, and does not require
hardcoding any directo
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> There are a few ways you can go. The simplest is to install a
> complete i386 world in e.g. /compat/ia32 and have i386 packages
> installed there, and change the kernel to do a "magic directory
> lookup" for i386 binaries that does
Ed Schouten wrote:
Hello,
It may be interesting to mention that yesterday there was a presentation
at the NLUUG (Netherlands UNIX Users Group) conference by Marco Zec, who
once wrote a patchset for FreeBSD 4.11 (and is in the process of porting
it to FreeBSD 7.x) that gives each jail its own net
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
> > The world would be a much nicer place if people would stop redefining
> > technical terms to mean whatever suits them.
> I think you're overreacting. You say: if the database is consistent,
> it's ACID ("Avoiding database corru
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:59:41AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote:
> I think you're overreacting. You say: if the database is consistent,
> it's ACID ("Avoiding database corruption is a necessary requirement for,
> rather than a consequence of, ACID") and I say: if the database is ACID,
> it's consiste
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
The world would be a much nicer place if people would stop redefining
technical terms to mean whatever suits them.
I think you're overreacting. You say: if the database is consistent,
it's ACID ("Avoiding database corruption is a necessary requirement for,
rather t
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
> > Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > You can inspect s sqlite database with the provided utility. Unless the
> > > database gets corrupted (which it tries to avoid by respecting ACID),
> > ACID is not something a databa
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> des@ mentioned putting metadata info at the front of the file - I
> don't see how this would help. The most common operation with binary
> packages *over the network* is "pkg_add -r", which will need to read
> it whole anyway, and it would help greatly for t
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> You can inspect s sqlite database with the provided utility. Unless the
> database gets corrupted (which it tries to avoid by respecting ACID),
ACID is not something a database "respects", it is a set of guarantees
that it provides to the application. Avoi
Peter Jeremy wrote:
On 2007-May-11 02:10:05 +0200, Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
- I think it's time to give up on using BDB+directory tree full of text
files for storing the installed packages database,
Why?
- no strict format
- slow
- not transaction safe
- harder to use then SQL (
Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:33:29AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> > Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:19:46AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> > > > Not if you want to use pre-built packages. You made su
Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:33:29AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> > The existence of .la files is a bug.
> >
> > We already have a mechanism for recording dependencies between
> > libraries; it's built into the ELF format, and does not require
> > h
On 2007-May-11 02:10:05 +0200, Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>- I think it's time to give up on using BDB+directory tree full of text
>files for storing the installed packages database,
Why?
> and I propose all of
>this be replaced by a single SQLite database.
I'll agree with Julian on t
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:33:29AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
> We already have a mechanism for recording dependencies between
> libraries; it's built into the ELF format, and does not require
> hardcoding any directories. Introducing .la files which override the
> existing mechanism and *d
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:33:29AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:19:46AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> > > Not if you want to use pre-built packages. You made sure of that when
> > > you decided (against my obje
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 02:10:05AM +0200, Ivan Voras wrote:
> - I think it's time to give up on using BDB+directory tree full of text
> files for storing the installed packages database, and I propose all of
> this be replaced by a single SQLite database.
Take a look at the pkgjam presentation dur
Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:19:46AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> > Not if you want to use pre-built packages. You made sure of that when
> > you decided (against my objections) to include .la files in packages.
> I have a suspicion you're never go
Julian Elischer wrote:
> ok, let me give you some words that come from the wisdom of having done
> this for 30 years.
>
> "Use an SQL DB file for this over my dead body"..
:)
I certainly won't be going on a campaign for it, but...
> Now having said that, I need to modify it a bit and explain.
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 10:19:46AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote:
> Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:47:49PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > > Personally, I'd still like LOCALBASE to move out of /usr/local. Maybe
> > > it's time to reconsider that.
> > Not g
Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:47:49PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > Personally, I'd still like LOCALBASE to move out of /usr/local. Maybe
> > it's time to reconsider that.
> Not gonna happen as a default, but you can change it on your systems
> if you like.
Ivan Voras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> - A quick test confirms that the current bsdtar will happily ignore any
> extra data at the end of a tgz/tbz archive, so package metadata can be
> embedded there, thus conserving existing infrastructure and being fast
> to parse. I suggest encoding this meta
Hello,
It may be interesting to mention that yesterday there was a presentation
at the NLUUG (Netherlands UNIX Users Group) conference by Marco Zec, who
once wrote a patchset for FreeBSD 4.11 (and is in the process of porting
it to FreeBSD 7.x) that gives each jail its own networking stack.
You c
On Thu, 10 May 2007 22:03:22 -0400
Mike Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Kris Kennaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed:
> > On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:47:49PM -0400, Mike Meyer wrote:
> > > Personally, I'd still like LOCALBASE to move out of /usr/local. Maybe
> > > it's time t
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