Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it

Am Mittwoch, 15. Juli 2015 schrieb James Powell: > Look at the number who use it and dislike it... > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > From: Alberto Zuin - liste > Sent: ‎7/‎15/‎2015 2:14 PM > To: dng@lists.dyne.org

Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it

In fact: it's interesting that the love/hate percentages are almost the same, but the very important thing for us are the two values "I use systemd and I dislike it" and "Other". Here it is where we can work to increase the number of (future) devaun users. We need solid (understandable) motivati

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

If Devuan is intended to respect the Unix philosophy, it must include "vi" in the default installation, and not as an optional package. Why not propose a choice for those who want another editor ? 2015-07-15 18:56 GMT+02:00 Hendrik Boom : > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wr

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

Good time of the day, Micky. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:17:01 +0200 you wrote: > I completely agree with Franco. > On every unix the default editor is vi, so it must be in devuan, if > somebody doesn't like it, he can use apt-get to install his favorite > editor. Let's look at another point of view

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

I am an avid VIM user, and I despise VI. If devuan is about choice you can always apt-get install vim-minimal after the default install. Nano is a better choice for anyone, because it is not as large as VIM. Emacs is also not intuitive. I see no real obvious reason to default to vi instead of n

[DNG] installer options and systemd survey from a non-power users perspective

Hi All, As a very unspohisticated Linux user I try not to post to this list to often, but here's what I think. You are building a Linux base distribution that is close to Debian Jessie, so stay as close to their install packages as possible, of course, excluding all things systemd. I find vi, vi

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

Unless a distribution offers a choice for the default editor, it will be impossible to satisfy everyone. I don't despise nano nor emacs, I simply don't use them, and I'm sure I'll never will. So nano or emacs would be very bad choices for me. The best choice is to let the user choose it's own defau

Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it

Let's not get carried away here. The poll has a rather small sample size, and probably not representative of the full universe of *nix users. Then again, distrowatch visitors are probably more knowledgeable users - and are probably more likely to be looking for a new distribution. Miles Fide

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

Just a thought: how about building these editor options into the installer? That way everyone's happy before they even log in for the first time... Please choose your default text editor: [x] Nano (recommended for beginners) [ ] Vim (more experienced users) [ ] Emacs (more experienced us

Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it

On 07/16/2015 07:57 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Let's not get carried away here. The poll has a rather small sample size, and probably not representative of the full universe of *nix users. Then again, distrowatch visitors are probably more knowledgeable users - and are probably more likely to

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

- Original Message - > From: "Hendrik Boom" > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default >> editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to >> use vi! > > NO. Not every

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:51:50AM +0200, Martial Bornet wrote: > If Devuan is intended to respect the Unix philosophy, it must include "vi" > in the default installation, and not as an optional package. > Why not propose a choice for those who want another editor ? I have no problem with vi in th

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:44:23PM +0200, Martial Bornet wrote: > Unless a distribution offers a choice for the default editor, it will be > impossible to satisfy everyone. > I don't despise nano nor emacs, I simply don't use them, and I'm sure I'll > never will. So nano or emacs would be very bad

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:44:21AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Hendrik Boom" > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > >> editor in every unix since ever

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

+1 Nano is ideal for the default install. A tool to get things working. After that, choice rules. Full stop. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] nano for beginners

I noted some people saying they were confused by nano. Here are basic instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of choice. I am deliberately leaving out things like cutting and pasting. If your goal is just to get a different editor installed, these instructions should

[DNG] vi for beginners

I noted some people saying they were confused by vi. Here are basic instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of choice. I am deliberately leaving out things like cutting and pasting. If your goal is just to get a different editor installed, these instructions should su

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

Is this still the mailinglist which is about the OPERATING SYSTEM devuan? On 16.07.2015 16:39, Rob Owens wrote: > I noted some people saying they were confused by vi. Here are basic > instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of > choice. I am deliberately leaving out t

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

On 16/07/15 16:39, Rob Owens wrote: > 6) Type the following, followed by hitting , in order to save > and quit: > > :wq > Nice HowTos thank you. Ironically this very morning I got stuck trying to edit hard coded network parameters and the keyboard map on a new VM install with no working network

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

I'd like to respond to this, even though I think 'no change' is the best policy at the moment. On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:41:18AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit : > >Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is > >not focusing on beg

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:44:21AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Hendrik Boom" > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: > >> I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default > >> editor in every unix since ever

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:45:03AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:51:50AM +0200, Martial Bornet wrote: > > If Devuan is intended to respect the Unix philosophy, it must include "vi" > > in the default installation, and not as an optional package. > > Why not propose a choic

Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Steve Litt" > > > I did a lot of work with Gentoo over the weekend, and from my > > perspective, although Gentoo inits with OpenRC, it seems to default > > to udev, not eudev, and there's way t

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 21:25:08 -0300 hellekin wrote: > On 07/15/2015 01:40 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > > > > Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, > > as nor debian does. > > > > For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and > > we should not compe

Re: [DNG] installer options and systemd survey from a non-power users perspective

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 07:33:46 -0300 John Jensen wrote: > Hi All, > > I find vi, vim, nano confusing, but I do have a small handbook on > vi(vim) that I can use to muddle through until I can add geany as a > text editor. I would say keep the base install light. John just summarized the whole sit

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

> Is this still the mailinglist which is about the OPERATING SYSTEM devuan? Yes, and on mailing lists, we don't top-post. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:41:08AM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote: > I'd like to respond to this, even though I think 'no change' is the best > policy at the moment. > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 12:41:18AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit : > > >Even though mc is s

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

Le 16/07/2015 18:41, Isaac Dunham a écrit : Honestly, the first time I encountered nano, I thought "How on earth do you use this?" In nano, like in every text editor except vi, you don't need to change mode between navigation and typing. You navigate with arrows (maybe that's less intuiti

Re: [DNG] Proposed editor change

Le 16/07/2015 19:24, Joel Roth a écrit : I notice that vipw and visudo default to vi. Honoring EDITOR or VISUAL environment variables by default would be a security hole, according to the man page. visudo honours EDITOR, but you can specify the list of accepted editors in the sudoers file,

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Do den 16. Jul 2015 um 17:04 schrieb John Crisp: > Nice HowTos thank you. So, and to make the stuff complete, please a (easy) way to leave emacs (without breaking my fingers or getting a knot into it.) :-) I always get stessed if emacs get start

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 07:41:52PM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA512 > > Am Do den 16. Jul 2015 um 17:04 schrieb John Crisp: > > Nice HowTos thank you. > > So, and to make the stuff complete, please a (easy) way to leave emacs > (without breaking my fi

Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

The thing about OpenEC scripts are is that they can be generalized for any distribution and work off of configuration files. Nobody ever said any init script is supposed to be easy. Init is complex, but it is supposed to have some complexity due to the fact you are starting and stopping critica

[DNG] emacs for beginners

Well, this possibly was the only missing one: 0) You usually prefer to have emacs already running somewhere, but if you don't then you can open "file.txt" using: emacs file.txt 1) to move around you can use arrow keys + PagUp/PagDown[*]. 2) to insert or delete work as in nano 3) to save the

Re: [DNG] nano for beginners

On 16/07/15 16:39, Rob Owens wrote: I noted some people saying they were confused by nano. Here are basic instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of choice. I am deliberately leaving out things like cutting and pasting. If your goal is just to get a different editor

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

Guys, if you don't mind my saying so, I think that change to the sake of change is really not very useful. More importantly, Devuan needs to keep vi installed in any case, in order to conform to the POSIX standard. I'm tired of the Linux community deciding to ignore UNIX standards. If Devuan is

Re: [DNG] nano for beginners

- Original Message - > From: "Anto" > In vi I use 10yy and then p to copy and paste 10 lines. And I use 10dd > to delete 10 lines and press u to undo that if I mistakenly deleted the > wrong lines. What are the equivalent commands for that in nano? I have no idea. My nano usage is limit

[DNG] Fwd: LinuxQuestions.org - Community Bulletin

This looks interesting. Are any of you interested in being interviewed? -- Forwarded message -- From: fo...@linuxquestions.org Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 4:15 PM Subject: LinuxQuestions.org - Community Bulletin To: bsduse...@gmail.com jdj, We recently interviewed Roberto

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On 15/07/15 02:59, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano -> vim exim -> postfix what do you guys thi

Re: [DNG] nano for beginners

On 16/07/15 22:04, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - From: "Anto" In vi I use 10yy and then p to copy and paste 10 lines. And I use 10dd to delete 10 lines and press u to undo that if I mistakenly deleted the wrong lines. What are the equivalent commands for that in nano? I have

[DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

I agree with T.J. that Devuan should stay as close to Debian as possible and it should include vi. If I have to get my little vi book out to function in vi I will :) On an unrelated, I appologize for the length of the email I forwarded about a potential interview. I should have copied and pasted t

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

If the goal of Devuan is Debian sans-systemd, then no changes other than rebuilding packages to exclude systemd support is needed. No changes need to be made to anything other than the init couplings. There is no debating vi or nano. That's just B.S. What we should be concerned with is what to

Re: [DNG] nano for beginners

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Anto wrote: > In vi I use 10yy and then p to copy and paste 10 lines. And I use 10dd to > delete 10 lines and press u to undo that if I mistakenly deleted the wrong > lines. > What are the equivalent commands for that in nano? > ctrl+k cuts a line. If you immedia

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

A little shortcut from the extreme basics I know of vi: On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Rob Owens wrote: > 6) Type the following, followed by hitting , in order to save > and quit: > > :wq ZZ (uppercase) saves and quits, no questions asked! ___ Dng ma

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 03:00:35PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Guys, if you don't mind my saying so, I think that change to the sake of > change is really not very useful. > > More importantly, Devuan needs to keep vi installed in any case, in > order to conform to the POSIX standard. I'm tired

Re: [DNG] emacs for beginners

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 08:34:08PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > Well, this possibly was the only missing one: > > 0) You usually prefer to have emacs already running somewhere, but if > you don't then you can open "file.txt" using: > > emacs file.txt > > 1) to move around you can use arrow keys + P

Re: [DNG] emacs for beginners

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 08:34:08PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: >>"M-" stands for "hold ALT. > > And if you don't have an ALT key, press and release escape, then type > the letter that was supposed too be alted. > Will someone please do "irssi for

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:45:49 -0700 James Powell wrote: > If the goal of Devuan is Debian sans-systemd, then no changes other > than rebuilding packages to exclude systemd support is needed. If I might say so, I think that Devuan's short-term goal should be to get a release out as soon as possibl

Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 08:33:48AM +0200, Michael Bütow wrote: > Happy to say that after I voted it was 633 users "for" and 634 "against" > (not planning to use it). > > Due to the construction of the poll, the "plan to avoid" figure includes > those of us who will be forced to use it anyway due t

Re: [DNG] vi for beginners

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:39:25AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > I noted some people saying they were confused by vi. Here are basic > instructions to get you far enough that you can install your editor of > choice. All that you need to deal with vi is: Alt-F2 (possibly Ctrl-Alt-F2) killall -9 vi

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 06:18:09PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > If I might say so, I think that Devuan's short-term goal should be to > get a release out as soon as possible, as close to Debian Jesse as > possible. I agree with James and T.J. here. Devuan 1.0 should be debian 8 sans systemd. As

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:01:43 -0700 Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 06:18:09PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > If I might say so, I think that Devuan's short-term goal should be > > to get a release out as soon as possible, as close to Debian Jesse > > as possible. > > I agree wit

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

And if ANY alternative init system is offered, COMPLETE script sets should be offered. No more throwing users to the wolves. There is no excuse for this. This crap caused enough problems leading many people I've known to avoid alternatives. Throwing users to the wolves is not an option, and neve

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

> Throwing users to the wolves is not an option, and never should have been one. Either an init script set be complete and maintained, or don't bother including it. Actually, I think that is Debian's POV too. Since they are switching to Systemd, no one is maintaining the S5 scripts, so in all li

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

Yes, but I mean alts like s6, Runit, etc. In the past these were left to the users to make for themselves. For these to be viable, they need full script sets ready to go. Sent from my Windows Phone From: T.J. Duchene Sent: ‎7/‎16/‎20

Re: [DNG] dng@lists.dyne.org

On Jul 16, 2015 6:48 PM, "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:45:49 -0700 > James Powell wrote: > > > If the goal of Devuan is Debian sans-systemd, then no changes other > > than rebuilding packages to exclude systemd support is needed. > > If I might say so, I think that Devuan's sho

[DNG] proposed changes: the results

Previously i was proposing a change of the default editor and the default MTA. Well, my proposition get a lot of traction in the list, and i'm really happy of that, it would mean that you care about devuan, and this IS a great thing. As for what i can undertand, there is no full consensus about w

Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 04:41:13AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: > Previously i was proposing a change of the default editor and the > default MTA. > > Well, my proposition get a lot of traction in the list, and i'm really > happy of that, it would mean that you care about devuan, and this IS a > gre

Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:41:13 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > Anyway, i propose to change this for ascii in this way: > > > INSTALLING FROM THE INSTALLER: > > > If you choose standard (quiet) install, you will get nano as $EDITOR >

[DNG] devuan LTS

Hi all, the recent discussions here have made me think about what features I would like devuan to have which debian doesn't currently have. One feature that comes to mind is a long term support branch like what ubuntu has. I think this would be great for those of us who are running servers, and are

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:39:41PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > the recent discussions here have made me think about what features I > would like devuan to have which debian doesn't currently have. One > feature that comes to mind is a long term support branch like what > ubuntu has. Since squeez

Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:36:46AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:41:13 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > > All those changes are in the direction to let the user choose, and > > will be applied on ascii only AFTER the jessie release. > > Is "ascii" the set of 7 bit characters where

Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:36:46AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Is "ascii" the set of 7 bit characters where space is 32 and tilde is > 127, or does it have a different context in this email? It is that, but is also the name for the next release of devuan after jessie. Look at www.devuan.org. The re

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 06:44:39AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > Since squeeze, every release has amd64+i386-only long term support. Ok, there were about two years between squeeze and wheezy. There was a year of updates for squeeze after wheezy came out. That makes three years. I was thinking in t

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

An LTS branch isn't needed if you do version controlled releases and sponsor support for versioned releases for at least 3-4 versions back. To be fair, I've used Slackware long enough to see how maintaining a versioned release can go right, and seen enough of Ubuntu to see how it can go horribly

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

> On July 17, 2015 at 12:57 AM James Powell wrote: > > An LTS branch isn't needed if you do version controlled releases and sponsor > support for versioned releases for at least 3-4 versions back. > > To be fair, I've used Slackware long enough to see how maintaining a versioned > release can go

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:57:06PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 06:44:39AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > Since squeeze, every release has amd64+i386-only long term support. > > Ok, there were about two years between squeeze and wheezy. There was a > year of updates for s

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

ILTS just doesn't make sense with a release cycle that's already set to be one of the slowest in the Linux world. Debian, and now Devuan releases are extremely conservative. N+1 cycles are good enough. The manpower that would be required to maintain 4, 5, or more more supported "released" branches

Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:57:47PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > I'm a long time *nix user/contributor and have > never become comfortable with vi*, even after several tries. Which > editor you like is personal, like the food you eat, e.g. vegetarian or > meat or ... It's easier to change your fo

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 07:25:10AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > The year of updates was general availability. When that ended, regular > squeeze archives got moved away, and a new repository, squeeze-lts, was > created. And it's still alive and supported, on a set of architectures > reduced to a

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

There is one thing I would recommend different that the standard Debian model. Release only the right amount of packages to create a working operating system under a complete installation, and dedicate the rest of all packages to Debian friendly build scripts for packages of the non-sequitur ran

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

It's about sanity really and keeping things as simple as possible, but as sane as possible in the long term. Read that right... The long term. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Gregory Nowak Sent: ‎7/‎16/‎2015 10:44 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org<

Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:49:49PM -0700, James Powell wrote: > There is one thing I would recommend different that the standard Debian > model. Release only the right amount of packages to create a working > operating system under a complete installation, and dedicate the rest of all > packages