On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:04:04 +0100
Florian Zieboll wrote:
> (I hope no one expected this thread to go back on the spool;)
Oh, and I hope that you, Alessandro, don't feel addressed personally.
If so: be assured of my deepest regret^^
Florian
pgp0R9igWr4xj.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signa
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 00:40:47 +0100
Alessandro Selli wrote:
> The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be
> "obscure geekery".
There's this cartoon (1), where an economic analyst stands in the
grainfield and tells the farmer to concentrate more on harvesting, as
sowing
Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
> The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be
> "obscure geekery".
That's me, ignorant peasant and dumb ox. You may have heard the saying:
You can always tell a Scandinavian, but you can't tell him much.
Anyway, I _
On 16/03/2018 at 00:14, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu):
>
>> I must rebut those statements.
>
> Edge-case obsess, much? ;->
> I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of
> obscure geekery,
The ignorant peasant regularly claims th
> By the way, when will anyone point out that printer-driver-hpcups
> might be enough for printing to non-ps HP printers and it doesn't need
> d-bus?
Being the original poster, I can confirm that CUPS+printer-driver-hpcups
worked for the printer in hand via JetDirect, without d-bus. I was tempte
Hi Didier,
Didier Kryn writes:
> Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit:
>>> This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...]
>> Indeed;-)
>>
>>> In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could
>>> give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have
Hi,
Joel Roth writes:
> Cups was sponsored by Apple, [...]
Correction, Apple bought CUPS in February 2007 after they adopted it for
inclusion in MacOS X in March 2002[1].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS#History
Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Membe
Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit :
This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...]
Indeed;-)
In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could
give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have to
inject suitable arguments for srand from ou
Hi,
Nelson H. F. Beebe writes:
> KatolaZ writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:19:42 +:
>
>>> my biggest frustration was not being able of finding a way to
>>> implement a 2D random walk in postscript that would show a different
>>> trajectory every time you open it :D (the only problem there is the
Nelson H. F. Bee:
...
> For more on PostScript and PDF, see the extensive bibliography at
>
> http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.bib
Thank you for all the references.
> As an example of differences between the two markup languages, look at
> the book in entry Casselman:2005:MIM,
KatolaZ writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:19:42 +:
>> my biggest frustration was not being able of finding a way to
>> implement a 2D random walk in postscript that would show a different
>> trajectory every time you open it :D (the only problem there is the
>> seed).
This is getting off the topi
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 04:59:49PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> >> ...
> >> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO. The key point is
> >> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally
> >> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript. You can conve
Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu):
> I must rebut those statements.
Edge-case obsess, much? ;->
I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of
obscure geekery, albeit it was gloriously irrelevant to the antecedent
basic discussion of printers.
> In summa
Rick Moen writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:19:50 -0700:
>> ...
>> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO. The key point is
>> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally
>> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript. You can convert a
>> .ps file to .
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:15:08PM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> Hendrik:
> ...
> > I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some
> > programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find
> > I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file. It won't
> > go to the pri
Hendrik:
...
> I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some
> programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find
> I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file. It won't
> go to the printer directly
>
> Of course then I have the abilty to get libreoffice to gene
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 06:04:48PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> >
> > > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> > > Was I wrong about that?
> >
> > Yes, you were. PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slig
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF.
> > Was I wrong about that?
>
> Yes, you were. PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slightly transformed
> and compressed for storage.
Yet when I produce a pdf f
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:01:43AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
>
> If you don't like what they did, the code is available to
> you to alter to your liking, or just try lprng.
I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some
programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find
I
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:29:08AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen
> :
> >
> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
>
>
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your
> document
Let's stir the pot a bit . . .
All of my printers have been HP. Ignorance is bliss . . .
First one was a hand-me-down with a serial connection. Other 2 have
been printer/scanners under $75. All three worked pretty much ootb but
yes, I'm infected with dbus.
I don't print often so the bigges
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
[PS support]
> You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $1000.
One, ISTR you exaggerate.
Two, most of the reasons why PS-supporting printers are slightly (not
greatly) more expensive than non-PS-capable printers reflect being aimed
Quoting Florian Zieboll (f.zieb...@web.de):
> I have a vague recollection, that there are printers and imagesetters,
> that are able to render PDF directly (never was involved in such a
> workflow myself) - but this is probably only true for equipment which
> does PostScript, of which PDF is a dir
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:57:13 -0400
Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100
> Florian Zieboll wrote:
>
> > Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when
> > it supports a PostScript version >1?
>
> You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100
Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner
> :
>
> > which network printers should we buy?
>
> Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when
> it supports a PostScript version >1?
You might pay $1000 ins
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:39:17 +0100
Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit :
> >> There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two
> >> processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more
> >> structured communication is necessary and you don't
Florian Zieboll writes:
I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of
your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo
script kiddies (yeah, that's me^^). This brings definitely more fun and
satisfaction, while providing at least some slight potential
Steve Litt writes:
As one such back seat driver, allow me to explain. When you've been
both programming and using for a long time, you get a feel for the many
ways something can be done,
...
I stopped here, because I remember what you wrote about Redis recently.
Perhaps you don't have a feel f
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 +
Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> backseat drivers
Hey Captain Murrica (sic!),
I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of
your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo
script kiddies (yeah, that's me^^). This brings
Dave Turner writes:
which network printers should we buy?
Look for something with wired ethernet, postscript and IPP, not under €300,
not under 20kg for a BW laser. WLAN is okay but if the printer doesn't have
wired ethernet, it's not targeted at the right market niche.
HP, Lexmark, Brother
taii...@gmx.com"
> Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without
> hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to
> work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings
> etc) are there any good guides for this?
You use setpaged
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 09:08:14AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner
> :
>
> > which network printers should we buy?
>
> Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it
> supports a PostScript version >1?
>
Well, in theory
Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner
:
> which network printers should we buy?
Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it supports
a PostScript version >1?
--
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Quoting Dave Turner (dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk):
> I know of many printers that don't play nicely with linux, I bought
> an HP because they do work.
If 'work' means with dependency on the mostly-proprietary HPLIP printing
software, then I would suggest this is a problem.
> For fut
Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit :
There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two
processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more
structured communication is necessary and you don't need two
processes (why would you in this case), other famous applicati
On 15/03/18 06:44, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis wrote:
I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows
Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au):
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
> Menelaos Maglis wrote:
>
> > > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
> >
> > > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
> > things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:32:26 +0100
Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit :
> > we are losing most of the original simplicity of
> > Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
> > just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops
>
>
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 +
Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Didier Kryn writes:
> > Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a
> > car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and
> > then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car?
> > Here
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:42:28 +0100
Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit :
> > Hallo Didier,
> >
> > just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos
> > Maglis's. I just tried to figure out that the basics of printing
> > (like most things in computong)
Am 2018-03-15 00:10, schrieb Ozi Traveller:
> I have Virtualbox working on freebsd.
With USB Support?___
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Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without
hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to
work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings
etc) are there any good guides for this?
_
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400
Menelaos Maglis wrote:
> > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
>
> > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
> things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
> like we are stuck with it.
>
> I realize t
I have Virtualbox working on freebsd.
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:52 AM, J. Fahrner wrote:
> Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:
>
>> Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
>> to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
>> to accept bin
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:57:33AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it
> > cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software
> > running on the sys
Am 2018-03-14 21:50, schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen:
chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you
didn't exaggerate this.
That'll have been Chrome. A giant.
Firefox is not better!
The giant is webkit.
___
Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan:
Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative
to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy
to accept binary only drivers there.
I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like
the con
chill...@protonmail.com writes:
lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no
doubt you didn't exaggerate this.
That'll have been Chrome. A giant. It includes several compilers and lots
of libraries. The only things I've seen that are comparable are gcc (over a
gigabyte of sour
Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan
partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary
only drivers there.
That said there is some simplistic value to freebsd, but they are also using
dbus where it's not appropriate. I guess
Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:
This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.
The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
for the use case.
I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switc
This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.
The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are going with
dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense for the use case.
Every release OSes increase in size and complexity, and not all of that is down
to extr
J. Fahrner writes:
That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as
network printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a
single ppd file, but then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is
fast with the Brother supplied "cupswrapper" driver, but this is
only available as 32bit pac
Am 2018-03-14 13:05, schrieb Simon Hobson:
FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and
home) tried to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers.
That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as network
printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a sin
> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how
simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and
problems.
> Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't
either.
We do. Although the word "simple" is not the main point, I s
Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same
> information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My
> Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol.
FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:11:23AM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
[cut]
>
> Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to
> bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive,
> other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save RA
Quoting Menelaos Maglis (mmag...@metacom.gr):
> So I am left with below choices:
>
> * Accept no printing
> * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible
> * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the
> abilities/motivation.
>
> At least this is an option in free software wo
Didier Kryn writes:
Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a
car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and
then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car?
Here we are with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but
there are quite a
Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit :
Hallo Didier,
just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just
tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong)
are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes.
Besides that: Of cour
Menelaos Maglis writes:
Why should an application need a system bus to pass messages
between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able
to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I
am aware. Why not keep using the same method/interfaces that are
proven for decade
Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit :
we are losing most of the original simplicity of
Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux),
just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops
Very well said!
___
Dng
Am 14. März 2018 10:49:21 MEZ schrieb Didier Kryn :
>
> Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the
> software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some
> protocol.
Hallo Didier,
just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just
Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 schrieb Menelaos Maglis:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
>
> D-Bus is used for communication
kato...@freaknet.org writes:
yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over
the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The
effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss".
Yet another answer is: The developers don't see another way that's both
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
[cut]
>
> Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the software to
> ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. This is nice
> for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point.
>
> But her
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 05:45:54AM -0400, Menelaos Maglis wrote:
> > Can't ask users about such
> tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
> can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
> users know about it.
>
> D-Bus is used for c
Le 14/03/2018 à 09:44, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :
Didier Kryn writes:
You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential,
isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably
with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more
feature-rich today than 10 years ago,
> Can't ask users about such
tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you
can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its
users know about it.
D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and
operation of a prin
Didier Kryn writes:
You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's
essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal
computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not
sure it's more feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it
wasn't depending on dbus.
I wrote a pri
> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many
> printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of correctl
Am 14. März 2018 09:29:08 MEZ schrieb Florian Zieboll :
>
> Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your
> document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the
> printer. Many printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of
> correctly resolved bitmaps
Le 14/03/2018 à 08:45, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :
"Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't
it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the
first McIntosh, in 1982. N
Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen
:
>
> "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your document
(or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many printers
(
Menelaos Maglis writes:
I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without
hplip/dbus these days...
"Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.
Arnt
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> I use hplip and yes dbus is installed.
> I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of
things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks
like we are stuck with it.
I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus these
days...
> A
On 13/03/18 20:09, Menelaos Maglis wrote:
Hi,
I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected,
printer.
CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end.
/var/log/cups/error.log:
Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend.
File \"/usr/lib/
Hi,
I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected,
printer.
CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end.
/var/log/cups/error.log:
Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend.
File \"/usr/lib/cups/backend/hp\" not available: No such fil
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