he transparency.
>
> -Mark
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Héctor A [mailto:neverbi...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:07 AM
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Subject: Re: International English
>
> Is this a discussion just for members of the Apache
dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: International English
Is this a discussion just for members of the Apache Flex team? if not, I
just wanted to give my opinion as a foreign Flex user... sincerely, I don't
care about UK English, US English or neutral English, excluding for slangs
and/or cultural re
Discussions are for everyone. Don’t hesitate to comment on anything.
Harbs
Is this a discussion just for members of the Apache Flex team? if not, I
just wanted to give my opinion as a foreign Flex user... sincerely, I don't
care about UK English, US English or neutral English, excluding for slangs
and/or cultural references, they all feels mostly the same for me, I'm used
Hi,
> Yes, I have asked the board for advice on how the project can have fewer
> lengthy discussions like this.
Thanks for that. IMO it may of been better to put that in your original email.
Perhaps next time think about involving the PMC and/or perhaps (depending on
content) CCing the emai
HI,
> Here is a commit email [1]. Below is the relevant part. It shows you
> changing “utilize” to “utilise”.
I changed serval things in that commit to make it the REAME more
understandable. My locale happens to be en_AU and so that word was corrected as
a side effect, it was not a deliberat
On 11/25/14, 1:07 PM, "Justin Mclean" wrote:
>Hi,
>
>> Alex obviously asked for advice on how to handle this. That’s a
>>perfectly valid thing to do.
>
>Which is fine, but let Alex answer. I think it's a valid question, as
>part of the Apache Way is openness. [1]
Yes, I have asked the board fo
On 11/25/14, 1:34 PM, "Justin Mclean" wrote:
>
>Actually what started this off is that Alex submitted a commit that
>changed something into US English and the previous spelling errors being
>a blocker to releases discussion.
Here is a commit email [1]. Below is the relevant part. It shows you
Hi Justin,
I just responded off list.
Thanks,
Harbs
On Nov 25, 2014, at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> It’s an antagonistic question
>
> Zero antagonism was meant or even implied. I know email tone can be hard to
> decipher sometimes, but please don't assume ill intent when none
Hi,
> It’s an antagonistic question
Zero antagonism was meant or even implied. I know email tone can be hard to
decipher sometimes, but please don't assume ill intent when none exists. Also
please try to be a little more courteous and respectful on this public email
list.
> He wants to dis
On Nov 25, 2014, at 11:07 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> I think it's a valid question
No it’s not. It’s an antagonistic question and has nothing to do with the pros
and cons of the discussion.
Let’s say Alex made that up. Who cares? He wants to discuss how to handle
localization/languages/whatev
Hi,
> Alex obviously asked for advice on how to handle this. That’s a perfectly
> valid thing to do.
Which is fine, but let Alex answer. I think it's a valid question, as part of
the Apache Way is openness. [1]
Thanks,
Justin
1. http://theapacheway.com/openness
Justin,
Please give it a break.
Alex obviously asked for advice on how to handle this. That’s a perfectly valid
thing to do.
On Nov 25, 2014, at 10:18 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
>> The board member who has been trying to follow the project recommends we
>> put the issue of US vs Int’l English t
Hi,
> So how about adding this:
>
> “Good-faith efforts at modifying text by non-native speakers generally
> should not be vetoed. Instead, native speakers are encouraged to thank
> them and simply make corrections.”
I'm not sure why you are singling out non native speakers here, any effort to
Hi,
> The board member who has been trying to follow the project recommends we
> put the issue of US vs Int’l English to a vote.
Where was this recommended? If it didn't happen on the mailing list it didn't
happen.
> Apparently, the HTTP project did so in the past (and decided on US English).
>>- This is a solution looking for a problem; a waste of everyone's time.
>
> Well, it is the board member’s recommendation. I actually hope to use the
> proposal as a way to invite folks to contribute translated versions.
Board members don't make project policy. But that aside, I wasn't
talking
On 11/25/14, 12:37 AM, "Erik de Bruin" wrote:
>My vote would be a -0 right now, strongly leaning towards a veto - on
>principle.
>
>I object on (at least) 3 points:
>
>- This is a solution looking for a problem; a waste of everyone's time.
Well, it is the board member’s recommendation. I actu
Regardless of the rest of the standardization, I think we should still allow
translation of user docs, website, wiki and GUI tool. Meaning not enforcing a
standard, but allowing better support for alternate languages if someone
desires to put forth the effort of translating.
-Mark
Same vote intention than Erik for the same reasons.
Frédéric THOMAS
> From: e...@ixsoftware.nl
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:37:10 +0100
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Localization Proposal (was re: International English)
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
>
> My vote would be a -0 right now
I did not understand Alex’s suggestion as changing the status quo.
The default language is currently US English. UI-facing components are already
localized. That would all stay the same.
The only suggestion would be to make a (reasonable) effort to use neutral words
when possible and possibly o
My vote would be a -0 right now, strongly leaning towards a veto - on principle.
I object on (at least) 3 points:
- This is a solution looking for a problem; a waste of everyone's time.
- Enforced language rules will raise the bar for entry, especially for
non-native speakers. It's hard enough m
I pretty much agree with these suggestions.
#7 is of less importance than #8
#4 is probably more important than #5, but both seem like a lot of effort. I
guess we’d need volunteers who are familiar in the respective languages to lead
the translation and maintain the specific areas. If we have v
The board member who has been trying to follow the project recommends we
put the issue of US vs Int’l English to a vote. Apparently, the HTTP
project did so in the past (and decided on US English). So this is now a
discuss thread leading to a vote.
Personally, I don’t want to just choose one ove
Hi,
> If we get complaints, we should try to find neutral words, but keep in
> mind that the Apache LICENSE itself contains words with “ize” like
> “authorize”. I don’t see how you’ll be able to remove all US English from
> our release packages.
>
> I would need to see a clear picture on how cha
On 11/23/14, 12:24 AM, "Justin Mclean" wrote:
>Hi,
>
>It boils down to this: About 60-70% of our users understand International
>English, only minor changes are required to accommodate that and be more
>inclusive, why wouldn't we do that?
If we get complaints, we should try to find neutral wor
Please don’t quote a partial statement. I explained why I thought it will lead
to inconsistency.
I’m done with this discussion until more people weigh in.
Thanks,
Harbs
On Nov 23, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:
>> But I DO care that whatever it is, it should be consistent.
>
> And I
Hi,
> First of all, we have no data on what percentage of users prefer US English
> relative to International English.
Yes we do see installer download stats in google analytics it give a reasonably
good indication, especially as the sample set is large. You can even get a good
approximation f
For the record:
I have no problems with anyone reworking wording to make the wording more
neutral (as per Alex’s suggestion).
(I personally am not going to invest my own time doing that though…)
On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Harbs wrote:
> Hi Justin,
>
> First of all, we have no data on what
Hi Justin,
First of all, we have no data on what percentage of users prefer US English
relative to International English. Statistics on where users come for are
somewhat of an indication, but only a partial indication. How many people come
from countries where the primary language is English? I
Hi,
It boils down to this: About 60-70% of our users understand International
English, only minor changes are required to accommodate that and be more
inclusive, why wouldn't we do that? Or are you saying that data is incorrect?
Granted most of the users don't care one way or another and that's
The only project which has English other than US English is OpenOffice, and
that is for USER documentation.
I have not seen any evidence that anyone has a problem anywhere with US English
developer documentation.
If none of the other Apache projects have seen a need to translate to
Internation
Hi,
> If you agree that we should use backgroundColor, color, and ColorPicker,
> doesn’t that count as US English?
They are names of classes / attributes / styles , we're not going to change
that because of backward compatibility. Names of things can be spelt in any way
and you retain that spel
Hi,
> Proof or it didn't happen.
In one case we had a client refuse to release Flex Application because of the
word "initilizing' in the loading bar (this issue was in an early version of
Flex and has fixed in a later version of Flex). The client was a large
newspaper in Australia and knew the
I don't have an opinion on this general topic one way or another (I prefer
using British English spelling, but I was raised on American English)
However regarding class names... Class names are class names. If Adobe
for the past 10-15 years had a class named BakgroundColorz, BakgroundImagez
and
>>> Before we go off spending energy rewriting the doc, I would like to see
>>> evidence that folks are finding it confusing and that some change is
>>>going
>>> to make a difference. I don’t recall very many JIRA issues about
>>> confusing documentation or threads on the mailing list.
>>
>>Over t
On 11/21/14, 11:53 PM, "Justin Mclean" wrote:
>Hi,
>
>> IMO, we should not be trying to decide between US and Int’l English.
>
>And nor should we be using US English for an international audience given
>who are the majority of our users.
If you agree that we should use backgroundColor, color,
Hi,
> IMO, we should not be trying to decide between US and Int’l English.
And nor should we be using US English for an international audience given who
are the majority of our users.
> For example, I don’t know if our documentation actually contains the
> phrase “your email address is missing
This feels to me like a “solution looking for a problem”. As programmers, I’m
sure we’re all familiar with that phenomenon. ;-)
Until there’s some real evidence that languages and locals, etc. is a problem,
I’m really hesitant to go that route. But if others want to knock themselves
out, have a
"bang" signs.
>
>
>-Mark
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Harbs [mailto:harbs.li...@gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:14 PM
>To: dev@flex.apache.org
>Subject: Re: International English
>
>I live in Israel and have plenty of friends from the UK
014 12:14 PM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: International English
I live in Israel and have plenty of friends from the UK and Europe. I have
plenty of exposure to International English and I’m aware of the differences.
Yes. There are some differences in expressions, but I still think ther
I live in Israel and have plenty of friends from the UK and Europe. I have
plenty of exposure to International English and I’m aware of the differences.
Yes. There are some differences in expressions, but I still think there’s no
one who would think email has menstrual cycles… ;-)
On Nov 18, 2
HI,
> So do we have an English to English translation guide :P ?
I'm sure we could build one but probably no need. There's enough people on this
list who can help out. I would guess there's more active committers who are
based outside of the US than in it.
Thanks,
Justin
So do we have an English to English translation guide :P ?
-Mark
-Original Message-
From: Justin Mclean [mailto:jus...@classsoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:59 AM
To: dev@flex.apache.org
Subject: Re: International English
Hi,
> I think it should be consist
Hi,
> I think it should be consistent. Currently it’s all in US English and the
> benefit of changing that is questionable while the effort is huge.
I was suggesting a gradual change as required so this would be minimal effort,
as long as it consistent in a release (and could even be noted in t
Hi,
> Just out of curiosity are we talking just the slang used or the spelling of
> words?
We should try to avoid slang as it will always be misunderstood by some users.
It's more about spelling, not using US words (eg period vs full stop) and
grammar.
Thanks,
Justin
Just out of curiosity are we talking just the slang used or the spelling of
words?
-Mark
I think it should be consistent. Currently it’s all in US English and the
benefit of changing that is questionable while the effort is huge.
I don’t believe anyone has trouble “translating” between US and International
English, but using one in one place and the other in other places is sloppy.
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