Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Paul Wise wrote: > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Marc Haber wrote: >> Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I >> have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to >> PragBF because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required >> people jumping t

Bug#883465: ITP: appmenu-gtk-module -- GtkMenuShell to GMenuModel parser

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Mike Gabriel * Package name: appmenu-gtk-module Version : 0.5.5 Upstream Author : Konstantin (https://github.com/rilian-la-te) * URL : https://github.com/rilian-la-te/vala-panel-appmenu/tree/master/unity-gtk-module * License

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote: I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK for VMs and some embedded systems, but normally a trap for the PCs we expect new users to b

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 05:05:58PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: Personally, as a developer, I will say there is one benefit of being so user-unfriendly that the usable ISO is hidden under the beware-of-leopard sign, which is that it serves as a "you have to be this technically aware to install deb

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:39:18AM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start > > hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the > > non-free ISO was the default one. > > Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* re

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:46:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: > Yes. We're approaching a worst-of-both-worlds scenario: We're not Free > enough to have the FSF recommend us, and we're not non-free enough for > our OS to run on current hardware used by Linux beginners, and cause > them to end up with

Bug#883471: ITP: geronimo-j2ee-management-1.1-spec -- Apache Geronimo J2EE Management 1.1 API

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Emmanuel Bourg * Package name: geronimo-j2ee-management-1.1-spec Version : 1.0.1 Upstream Author : The Apache Software Foundation * URL : http://geronimo.apache.org * License : Apache-2.0 Programming Lang: Java Descri

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Jonathan Dowland writes: > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > >I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start > >hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if > >the non-free ISO was the default one. > > Are we promoting har

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:21:49PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: > and the Debian Project promotes hardware that doesn't > require non-free firmware (because the Debian system by default needs no > extra drivers for that hardware). ... equally with the hardware that uses pre-flashed firmware. > > I don

Bug#883474: ITP: gnome-shell-extension-kimpanel -- KDE's kimpanel implementation for GNOME Shell

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Boyuan Yang <073p...@gmail.com> X-Debbugs-CC: wen...@gmail.com debian-devel@lists.debian.org pkg-ime-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org * Package name: gnome-shell-extension-kimpanel Version : 0~20171201 Upstream Author : Weng Xuetian * URL

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > IMHO, we need to go (more) one way or the other. We either reaffirm that > firmware is in-scope for our DFSG values and stop compromising it with > the non-free install images, or we look to revise the DFSG in line with > modern realities a

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware (not > drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment? On our website, we don't promote hardware, just people/companies that you can pay to install Debian for yo

Re: Should tasks be considered harmful?

Paul Wise writes: > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 6:43 AM, Bjørn Mork wrote: > >> But how would a user without any previous knowledge of modemmanager or >> Linux networking be able to figure this out? > > It sounds like you are looking for isenkram to be integrated into the > installer so that the knowle

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:21:49 +0100, Ben Finney wrote: > > Jonathan Dowland writes: > > > Are *you* using non-free firmware? > > The machines sold by, for example, ThinkPenguin, work with the latest > Debian release, without non-free software. There's one example, which > responds to the rhetori

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 02:33:07PM +0100, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > Just because software comes pre-installed doesn't mean it is free. And > if it is also impossible to replace the software you also can't update > it with a free version so the user has even less freedom than when you > can replace th

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:31:14 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote: > > I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a > > decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK > > for VMs and some

Re: Should tasks be considered harmful?

Quoting Bjørn Mork (2017-12-04 14:18:17) > I want the installation to end up with a *more* predictable set of > packages. Attempting to do any sort of harware based package > selection will result in less predictability. This is support hell. > Imagine a Debian user trying to assist another D

Re: ISO download difficult

Hi, Le 01/12/2017 à 22:14, Luca Capello a écrit : Like the following? Which is 3-click away from the main page: Three clicks away is three clicks too much. We have a nice "download" button on the front page, suggesting that you

Re: ISO download difficult

El lun., 4 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 12:19, Thibaut Paumard < thib...@debian.org> escribió: > Hi, > > Le 01/12/2017 à 22:14, Luca Capello a écrit : > > > > Like the following? > > > > > > > > Which is 3-click away from the main page: > >

Bug#883484: ITP: r-cran-rstudioapi -- GNU R package to access the RStudio API

Package: wnpp Owner: Dirk Eddelbuettel Severity: wishlist * Package name: r-cran-rstudioapi Version : 0.7 Upstream Author : JJ Allaire, Hadley Wickham, Kevin Ushey and Gary Ritchie * URL or Web page : https://github.com/rstudio/rstudioapi * License : MIT Description

Bug#883488: ITP: golang-gopkg-lxc-go-lxc.v2 -- Go bindings for liblxc

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: =?utf-8?q?Cl=C3=A9ment_Hermann?= * Package name: golang-gopkg-lxc-go-lxc.v2 Version : 0.0~git20171109.99ba61b-1 Upstream Author : LXC - Linux Containers * URL : https://github.com/lxc/go-lxc * License : LGPL-2.1 with red

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei wrote: Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. In this way the user don't need to re-download

Bug#838211:

Attention Pls.docx Description: MS-Word 2007 document

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical > modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the > latter. I

Re: recommends for apparmor in newest linux-image-4.13

Theodore Ts'o writes ("Re: recommends for apparmor in newest linux-image-4.13"): > [something about] security-weenies IMO this language is completely inappropriate in any formal Debian context. Furthermore, the targets of this insult don't deserve it, because there are real scenarios where "fail

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): > > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > > the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical > > modern

Bug#883510: ITP: r-cran-recipes -- GNU R preprocessing tools to create design matrices

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Andreas Tille * Package name: r-cran-recipes Version : 0.1.0 Upstream Author : Max Kuhn * URL : https://cran.r-project.org/package=recipes * License : GPL Programming Lang: GNU R Description : GNU R preprocessing

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Holger Levsen writes: > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, > non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be > even better and also not need a GR. +1. I think firmwar

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both > the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the > non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the > issues, expla

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Andrey Rahmatullin writes: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: >> For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both >> the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with >> the non-free link going to or closely tied with a page

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > There are alternatives? always. -- cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > > There are alternatives? > > always. Non-x86, I assume. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Holger Levsen writes: yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Am 04.12.2017 um 19:03 schrieb Holger Levsen: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: >> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and >>> the non-free ISO with firmware

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 08:21:21PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > >Holger Levsen writes: > > > >>yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > >>however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth

Re: ISO download difficult

Hello, On Mon, Dec 04 2017, Thibaut Paumard wrote: > I vote for: >1- putting the non-free firmware on all our images, This seems more controversial than it needs to be, and misses an opportunity for us to express our values. Why are you against maintaining the fullly free images alongside t

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 10:34 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Holger Levsen writes: > > > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, > > non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) wou

Re: ISO download difficult

On 12/04/2017 04:41 PM, eamanu15 . wrote: >>3- if yes, let the user decide: >> >> "Your network card/wifi adapter needs non-free spftware to operate. You >> may choose to keep this install 100% free software, in which case you >> will have no network connection until you plug-in a supported ada

Bug#883538: ITP: libmsnumpress -- numerical compression in mass spectrometry data

Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: Filippo Rusconi * Package name: libmsnumpress Version : 1.0.0 Upstream Author : Johan Teleman et al * URL : https://github.com/ms-numpress/ms-numpress * License : (Apache-2.0) Programming Lang: (C++) Description

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: >> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and >>> the non-free ISO with firmware and

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:18:21PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components > in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e. > if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe > because we editorial

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Dec 04, Russ Allbery wrote: > +1. I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free > software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to > choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free > software. Me too. Mostly everybody believed thi

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 23:41:34 +0500 Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both > > the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the > > non-free link g

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:46:37PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On Dec 04, Russ Allbery wrote: > > > +1. I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free > > software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to > > choose to enable non-free firmware without e

Re: recommends for apparmor in newest linux-image-4.13

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:56:45PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: > Theodore Ts'o writes ("Re: recommends for apparmor in newest > linux-image-4.13"): > > [something about] security-weenies > > IMO this language is completely inappropriate in any formal Debian > context. The second definition from ht

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 05.12.2017 00:11, Adam Borowski wrote: > How exactly firmware is not software? > We may take a concession and offer non-free or parts of non-free more > prominently (as it's needed on modern x86, all wifi cards I've seen, etc), > but let's not declare that non-software. > > Thus, until the situa

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 21:01 +, Ben Hutchings wrote: > I end up needing non-free firmware on most bare metal systems, but > nothing else from non-free.  I never remember how to include it at > installation time.  And I don't want us to gloss over the fact that > it is non-free and therefore not

Re: Should tasks be considered harmful?

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Bjørn Mork wrote: > No, not really. I want the installation to end up with a *more* > predictable set of packages. Attempting to do any sort of harware based > package selection will result in less predictability. Understood. > Imagine a Debian user trying to as

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > > There are alternatives? > > always. > > > -- > cheers, > Holger About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with 802.11ac wifi c

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Dec 04, Michael Lustfield wrote: > As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems > (specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free. With > servers, I usually need something for the networking drivers but nothing else. Looks like you are confused.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 09:45:33AM +0800, Yao Wei wrote: > About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with > 802.11ac wifi chip which is available on the market. All of them > requires firmware or even non-free Linux modules. All wifi chips use firmware so this is a bad a

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB > myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to > reading the source to figure out where it expects to look (nor to > improve the docs etc.) The d

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Philipp Kern wrote: > On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: >> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. >> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, >> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non

Re: ISO download difficult

Am 05.12.2017 um 05:34 schrieb Paul Wise: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >> Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB >> myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to >> reading the source to figure out where it expect