I've updated my unstable galeon package with a pull from the cvs that
compiles against mozilla 0.9.7
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/galeon_1.1-1_i386.deb
wget it, dpkg -i it
it seems to work fine for me. Note that this is a cvs pull from
11am'ish EST on Dec 25th, so it could be unstable.
On 26 Dec 2001, Ganesan R wrote:
> 1. The source tarball is still called sed (the latest version is
>sed-3.52.tar.gz). What are my options of dealing with this other than
>asking upstream to change the source tarball?
You can rename the source tarball when uploading to debian. No problem
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Adam Heath wrote:
> What you want is dpkg-divert. But I vote against diverting /usr/bin/sed.
I have to agree with Adam, diverting sed might be dangerous.
HOWEVER, nothing forbids you to package it simply as ssed for now, then
run very comprehensive regression tests to make s
First, i'd like to apologise to the developers that witnessed me
"spazzing"(as one person described it) over the current state of debian and
it's stability/buggyness.
Ok, as a one-time debian tier-1 mirror server admin, and a 4 year user
of debian i'd like to make an observation
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For some time now there has been an increasing trend in people that
> I know who use debian. It is the view that debian is becoming
> increasingly "old"/outdated, and that developers either a: dont'
> have the time to properly
:-> "ahzz-debate" == ahzz-debate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[...]
> I see an increasing trend of two critical problems in the way
> debian operates. #1 package age. Let me talk about this one
> first. There has been a relatively (year or two) explosion in
> the package c
On 25/12/01, Ben Pfaff wrote:
> Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 02:36:52AM -0800, Ben Pfaff wrote:
> > > If so, then maybe you should have a look at fungetty, a
> > > replacement for the standard Linux getty that can display
> > > full-color graphics above the
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:38:24AM +0100, Pierfrancesco Caci wrote:
> Nice bait I'll bite, but if you want to read it you'll have to
> subscribe... It's not fair to throw the rock and hide the hand
>
> 1) learn how to properly format a mail message (i.e. fold at 75th
>column)
>
> 2) lear
Duly chastined. :) I discovered a few minutes ago (thanks to a friend
that is d-d) that I can in fact join the debian-devel list. So I am now lurking
to read and reply. :)
I'll reply in a few minutes to the other email. :)
Brian
Heh, I was not aware that a non-developer could subscribe to d-d.
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:41:54AM +, David Graham wrote:
>
>
> Nice bait I'll bite, but if you want to read it you'll have to
> subscribe... It's not fair to throw the rock and hide the hand
>
> 1) learn how to
* Pierfrancesco Caci ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> Nice bait I'll bite, but if you want to read it you'll have to
> subscribe... It's not fair to throw the rock and hide the hand
>
> 1) learn how to properly format a mail message (i.e. fold at 75th
>column)
Quit pickin at the measly st
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:40:52AM +, David Graham wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > For some time now there has been an increasing trend in people that
> > I know who use debian. It is the view that debian is becoming
> > increasingly "old"/outdated, and
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 01:38:53AM -0800, David D. W. Downey wrote:
> * Pierfrancesco Caci ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> >
> > Nice bait I'll bite, but if you want to read it you'll have to
> > subscribe... It's not fair to throw the rock and hide the hand
> >
> > 1) learn how to properly for
Damn, I didn't want to post here anymore, but looks like I need to add
some points. :-(
On 26/12/01, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> Heh, I was not aware that a non-developer could subscribe to d-d.
Looking at http://lists.debian.org and reading the list description
would have told you that before.
>
So, that's hopefully my last post for quite a long time.
On 26/12/01, David D. W. Downey wrote:
> * Pierfrancesco Caci ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > 1) learn how to properly format a mail message (i.e. fold at 75th
> >column)
> Quit pickin at the measly stuff and pay attention to the content
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 06:34:16AM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> 'Thank you for all the fishes, do come back when you have the proper skill
> level and/or amount of spare time to actually maintain your Debian packages'
That's all very well (personally I find it a bit insulting and
co
Brian, I understand your complaints. It bugs me, too, to find
software not maintained well. We are volunteers, though, and as you
realize, it takes a lot of time to do this, and so it happens, on
occasion that someone just can't keep up. I don't think it's really
fair of people to tell you "hey
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:07:57PM +0100, David N. Welton wrote:
> As was stated elsewhere, the best way you can make a meaningful
> contribution is to file bugs that are "higher level" than "normal", in
> order to draw attention to broken packages.
Oh god no. Please no. Inflating bug severeties
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:07:57PM +0100, David N. Welton wrote:
>
> Brian, I understand your complaints. It bugs me, too, to find
> software not maintained well. We are volunteers, though, and as you
> realize, it takes a lot of time to do this, and so it happens, on
> occasion that someone jus
Anthony Towns writes:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:07:57PM +0100, David N. Welton wrote:
> > As was stated elsewhere, the best way you can make a meaningful
> > contribution is to file bugs that are "higher level" than
> > "normal", in order to draw attention to broken packages.
> Oh god no. Pl
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:26:50PM +0100, David N. Welton wrote:
> Anthony Towns writes:
> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:07:57PM +0100, David N. Welton wrote:
> > > As was stated elsewhere, the best way you can make a meaningful
> > > contribution is to file bugs that are "higher level" than
> > >
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 01:47:47PM -0500, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> Creating a bug report has the advantage of sharing the status of the issue
> with other users and developers, but the disadvantage of annoying
> developers who are oversensitive about bug reports.
How about make a blacklist in the b
Package: wnpp
Version: N/A; reported 2001-12-26
Severity: wishlist
* Package name: spambouncer
Version : 1.4
Upstream Author : Catherine A. Hampton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* URL : http://www.spambouncer.org
* License : GPL
Description : a powerful user-based a
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 01:57:17AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> As debian "caught up" on versions, CDRToaster became
> increasingly buggy. The last modification that I saw to it over
> a year ago was to let it support > 8x CDR drives. I personaly
> took the time to pat
How popular is Fidonet support in Debian?
Of the people who use it, is it most desired to have a Fido program be
spawned with stdin/stdout/stderr pointing to a serial port or is it more
desired that the Fido software be accessed by rsh/ssh connection to a Fido
server machine?
I'm going to add
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 07:47:46PM +0100, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> My prophet, we are really glade to hear your non-constructive, needless and
> useless critism. Go away and use RedHat where you allways get working
> solutions, for more plattforms, better code, hotdogs falling from the sky,
> etc. etc
martin f krafft wrote:
> The SpamBouncer is a set of procmail recipes, or instructions, which
> search the headers and text of your incoming email for indications of
> spam. If spam is identified, there is a plethora of actions you can
> take, ranging from tagging, deletion, to complaining to upst
also sprach Craig Dickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.26.1724 +0100]:
> Maybe the answer is obvious to experienced package developers, but what
> is the "easy way" you plan to handle SpamBouncer's frequent updates?
i was simply thinking of a cronjob that received ftp updates and
installs them...
Hi,
I'm currently packaging slash-2.2.0 the weblog code that run Slashdot.
Since our current stable version is 2.2, I build the package for
Potato.
I made the files available at
http://debian.org/~ericvb/potato
Since this package depends on a lot of perl libraries that aren't
currently availab
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 01:57:17AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For some time now there has been an increasing trend in people
> that I know who use debian. It is the view that debian is becoming
> increasingly "old"/outdated, and that developers either a: dont' have
> the time to proper
In response to the thread about old packages, I have a specific
suggestion. How about we post a list of orphaned packages in the
weekly news? That way the community is kept very aware of where they
can help. And if somebody gets annoyed by seeing the same package
from week to week, well, by that
Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> Previously Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Do I have to use brackets for you?
>
> Well, jokes aside, a somewhat more clear description would be
> helpful, I couldn't figure out what it really was immediately.
I'm happy to receive an improved description.
Regards,
Joe
Michael Piefel wrote:
> Am 21.12.01 um 16:01:08 schrieb Gregor Hoffleit:
> > This is to say: In some instances, even no translation is better than a
> > bad translation.
>
> Quite right, but this was just a quick hack. BTW, why should the
> translation be better than the original? ;-)
Quite simp
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:08:34PM +0100, Marcus Brinkmann wrote:
>
> Robinsonitis seems to be a contagious disease...
grr, i'm _always_ nice, and *never* rude.
-john
--
John H. Robinson, IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http
W
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:53:54PM +, Adam Olsen wrote:
> How about we post a list of orphaned packages in the weekly news?
not every week! news is for _new_ stuff, not the same-old from the
previous week.
perhaps a monthly/biweekly post to #debian-devel, or some other
(moderated) list set up
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:24:52AM -0800, Craig Dickson wrote:
> but how is this going to work in a stable release? A badly-outdated copy
> of SpamBouncer isn't terribly useful, and is even mildly dangerous if
> you have it configured to automatically send complaints.
Fortunately, the program has
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 05:41:24PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Craig Dickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.26.1724 +0100]:
> > Maybe the answer is obvious to experienced package developers, but what
> > is the "easy way" you plan to handle SpamBouncer's frequent updates?
> i was si
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:53:54PM +, Adam Olsen wrote:
> > How about we post a list of orphaned packages in the weekly news?
>
> not every week! news is for _new_ stuff, not the same-old from the
> previous week.
If the
Anthony Towns writes:
> Oh god no. Please no. Inflating bug severeties just makes it harder to
> do releases; if there's a problem with normal bugs being ignored (and,
> IMO, there is), it needs to be addressed directly, not worked around by
> filing everything as important or higher.
But I thin
begin Adam Olsen quotation:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
>> keeping the community updated is a nice thing, this is why so very few
>> of our lists have closed subscriptions. using DWN as a forum for _this_
>> purpose i believe is bad.
>
> Perhaps. Cert
also sprach Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.26.1822 +0100]:
> You'd also need a method for handling systems on dialup connections.
sure. /etc/ppp/ip-up.d in that case...
as in: if dialup, the cron job would simply drop a file in there
every week, which would delete itself after a successfu
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 05:45:08PM +, Sean Neakums wrote:
> begin Adam Olsen quotation:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> >> keeping the community updated is a nice thing, this is why so very few
> >> of our lists have closed subscriptions. using DW
Sean Neakums wrote:
> begin Adam Olsen quotation:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> >> keeping the community updated is a nice thing, this is why so very few
> >> of our lists have closed subscriptions. using DWN as a forum for _this_
> >> purpose i bel
Quoting martin f krafft ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> > "You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a
> > fever."
> where's that from?
'dead flag blues', by Godspeed you black emperor!
Greets,
Robert
--
Linux Generation
encrypted mail preferre
* Erich Schubert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[snipped]
> BTW: The source has some drawbacks right now i fear:
> As far as i could see it does not include the glx driver (which is the
> only way to use all those nvidia graphics cards) but depends on an old
> mesa version and svgalib.
An patch to add
hi debian team
i would like to contribute my part to the linux/open source comunity and ive
heard that you never get enough of people who translate stuff for you.
well, i speak both german and english and i thought i could be of use for
you`?!
im totally new to linux but im getting into it steadil
* Branden Robinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
[snipped]
> THIS IS BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO READ.
Press the little button below tab and above left shift before sending
any more messages.
;)
> --
> G. Branden Robinson|If you wish to strive for peace of
> Debian GNU/Linux
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 07:15:53PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Sean Neakums wrote:
> > begin Adam Olsen quotation:
> >
> > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:18:55AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> > >> keeping the community updated is a nice thing, this is why so very few
> > >> of our lists h
Moin!
Hanno Terveen wrote:
> i would like to contribute my part to the linux/open source comunity and ive
> heard that you never get enough of people who translate stuff for you.
> well, i speak both german and english and i thought i could be of use for
> you`?!
> im totally new to linux but im g
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 02:02:26PM -0500, Paul Duncan wrote:
> * Branden Robinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> [snipped]
> > THIS IS BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO READ.
>
> Press the little button below tab and above left shift before sending
> any more messages.
>
> ;)
It might surprise you, but I ha
Hello,
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 07:15:53PM +0100, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Sean Neakums wrote:
> > How about listing packages that are orphaned on DWN once, when it
> > happens, with a pointer to the full list of orphaned packages?
> > Something like:
> >
> > Three packages were orphaned this wee
> "Marcus" == Marcus Brinkmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Marcus> Let's promote when we have something to promote.
Does this count as something to promote?
http://psdoom.sourceforge.net>
--
Stephen
"A duck!"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) writes:
> But I think the point here is that the presence of a jillion normal
> bugs, unaddressed for years, constitutes a release-critical bug
While that's an interesting assertion, the real question is what it means to
"address" a bug. There are package
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Adam Olsen) writes:
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2000/debian-devel-23/msg01353.html,
> which says there's a lintian error/warning called
> "ancient-standard-version", which I believe can detect when a debian
> package is far behind the upstream version.
Nope, it t
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:45:05 +0100
Erich Schubert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Version : x.y.z
> Upstream Author : Name <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> * URL : http://www.some.org/
> * License : (GPL, LGPL, BSD, MIT/X, etc.)
this information is not so clear... this is bad, yo
also sprach Robert van der Meulen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2001.12.26.1922 +0100]:
> > > "You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a
> > > fever."
> > where's that from?
> 'dead flag blues', by Godspeed you black emperor!
i knew that, you joker :)
just needed a refreshment...
(ma
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 01:43:53PM +, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 01:57:17AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > As debian "caught up" on versions, CDRToaster became
> > increasingly buggy. The last modification that I saw to it over
> > a year ago was to let it s
It's a normal bug at the minimal. I couldn't get CDRToaster to even do
a simple burn of a single directory! So I think the bug description would be
more like "CDRToaster has failed to follow the evolution of mkisofs's command
line parameters. As a result many fetures that CDRToaster purp
I just wrote this for addition to the Debian X FAQ, and thought I would
post it here since I've been getting asked about this lately. Also,
it's a bit of signal to counter the noise I generated yesterday under
provocation from Jack Howarth. :)
Needless to say, XF86Config(7), XF86Config-v3(5), an
Ok, here is something to look at. How many NEW packages are there in
the last 2 months? How many of them could have been saved for later due to an
alternate allready existing? How many don't add a whole lot of value to debian?
Instead of many new packages, why not make people pic
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:49:11PM -0600, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> Instead of many new packages, why not make people pick up the orphaned
> stuff, and find replacements or adopt packages that have been DOA upstream?
In a volunteer organization, you can't _make_ people do anything. You
can enco
No, but you can do, like you said, and deny them a new package unless
they take up an older one that matches thier area of expertiece.
For example, (still picking on CDRToaster as an example only at this
time) if I were the maintainer of mkisofs, and I updated it, thus breaking
Seems to me that we came up with a solution for this problem a while
ago: the Debian QA team. Right now it has eight people, and an
overwhelming workload. I think a QA team is the right thing here;
presumably it can have the discussions about whether particular
packages are so stale they should
Anthony Towns dijo:
> Bas Zoetekouw posted the results of a script in mid November that'd
> help clearing up packages that've been sitting in the archive
> unmaintained for ridiculously long periods,
Could anyone ponit me to that script? Google can't help me this time :-)
--
.''`. "No ten
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:02:48PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
>
> Seems to me that we came up with a solution for this problem a while
> ago: the Debian QA team. Right now it has eight people, and an
> overwhelming workload. I think a QA team is the right thing here;
> presumably it can
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:52:39PM -0600, Brian Wolfe wrote:
[ a bunch of stuff I didn't read, because ... ]
If you're going to participate on the debian mailing lists, consider
doing so with a mailer that understands and honors the
Mail-Followup-To: header (yes, I know it's not an "official" sta
Adam Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I HOPE that's a joke. Mentioning the X maintainer (*cough* no names
> *cough) in the same sentance as "sexy" is just wrong imnsho.
I dunno, he looks pretty nice in the pic on his web page. :)
Adam Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > But I suspect that eight people is nowhere near enough people. Maybe
> > I could join... Indeed, maybe the problem would go away if everyone who
> > has posted a suggestion in this thread joined the QA team and started work.
>
> I'd be more than willin
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:37:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Adam Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > > But I suspect that eight people is nowhere near enough people. Maybe
> > > I could join... Indeed, maybe the problem would go away if everyone who
> > > has posted a suggestion
Hello debian,
We are using boot-floppies_3.0.18 to newly install debian on the
new computer of my son. To not have to download through my slow cable
connection, I have used apt-move om my own computer to convert the
very big /var/cache/apt/archive to a local mirror structure.
Now dbootstrap sta
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 07:07:54PM +, Adam Olsen wrote:
> Anyway, I did some searching and found two interesting posts, although
> not the one by Bas Zoetekouw that was mentioned earlier.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-qa/2001/debian-qa-200111/msg00188.html
Cheers,
aj
--
Anthony Towns <[E
On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 08:14:30AM +0100, Russell Coker wrote:
> I have packaged the grsecurity kernel patch, but it hasn't gone into unstable
> apparently because of the process of freezing for woody release.
>
> Now the LSM kernel patch that I maintain is getting some of the features of
> grse
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:36:13AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Anthony Towns writes:
> > Oh god no. Please no. Inflating bug severeties just makes it harder to
> > do releases; if there's a problem with normal bugs being ignored (and,
> > IMO, there is), it needs to be addressed directly,
Anthony Towns writes:
> No, it's not that simple. dpkg is perfectly releasable right now, in spite
> of a jillion normal bugs. Heck, now that Wichert and Adam are working on it,
> it's even an example of a well maintained package.
So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
> There
Previously Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
Because since we started working on it again we've had lots
more pressing things to look into that a bug like #9085?
Wichert.
--
_
Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Previously Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
>
> Because since we started working on it again we've had lots
> more pressing things to look into that a bug like #9085?
So I picked that bug total
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 06:39:34PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
> > Because since we started working on it again we've had lots
> > more pressing things to look into that a bug like #
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> > Where upstream is inactive or unresponsive things are a little
> > different, of course.
>
> Yup, this is the situation that I was attempting to describe, when
> upstream seems to be ignoring the package, debian can then take on some of the
> small
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Brian Wolfe wrote:
> It's a normal bug at the minimal. I couldn't get CDRToaster to even do
> a simple burn of a single directory! So I think the bug description would be
> more like "CDRToaster has failed to follow the evolution of mkisofs's command
> line parameters. A
Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Brian Wolfe wrote:
>
> > It's a normal bug at the minimal. I couldn't get CDRToaster to even do
> > a simple burn of a single directory! So I think the bug description would be
> > more like "CDRToaster has failed to follow the evo
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 09:36:13AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> > Anthony Towns writes:
> > > Oh god no. Please no. Inflating bug severeties just makes it harder to
> > > do releases; if there's a problem with normal bugs being ignored (and,
> >
Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Of course, there are hints that there is another segfault bug out there, with
> the latest version in woody. It's not repeatable, however. Also, on this
> note, I stand by 1.9.18, as being one of the most safest versions of dpkg,
> with regard to buffer o
On 26 Dec 2001, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
Because that's a cosmetic issue. There are more important things to work on,
like fixing bugs, and implementing features that we will need down the road.
On 26 Dec 2001, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Um, if it doesn't work for the version of mkisofs in woody, then it is
> a critical bug as far as woody is concerned.
That may be true. But someone who has potato installed, and does a partial
upgrade, might not have the new version of mkisofs.
Seri
Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 26 Dec 2001, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
>
> > So, picking one at random, why is bug 9085 still open?
>
> Because that's a cosmetic issue. There are more important things to work on,
> like fixing bugs, and implementing features that we will need down
On 26 Dec 2001, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
> Adam Heath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Of course, there are hints that there is another segfault bug out there,
> > with
> > the latest version in woody. It's not repeatable, however. Also, on this
> > note, I stand by 1.9.18, as being one of
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