Garth, J,
It is precisely the point that I would like to differentiate emails
away from my main inbox.
I use thunderbird as my mail reader and I cannot find a way to
differentiate clojure emails. I use the mailing list tag as a
way to filter all other groups and they all seem to use the
[groupna
-ID header (it's not selected by
default even after the new addition)
- For the match pattern, use "contains" and "clojure@googlegroups.com
<mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com>"
If this doesn't work, let me know and I'll try troubleshooting it on
my mail.
ot;)) (getInputStream))
it works and gives me the result of the "ls" system call.
If I replace the Runtime line with
(. (. (. Runtime (getRuntime)) (exec "ls *.o"))
(getInputStream))
it fails even though it has a string argument.
Suggestions?
Tim Daly
--
27;t think this is possible, check out "Lisp In Small Pieces"
which is a full book containing a full lisp (interpreter, compiler, etc).
I haven't tried this with Clojure yet as I'm still trying to find my way
around the language. When I build an application with Clojure it will
be
e than writing code the traditional way.
Is it worth it? Only if you want to write code that lasts forever.
I get paid to write code that will be thrown away.
In my free time I want to write code that lives
So the question is
"Should Clojure be restructured into literate form?"
Tim D
The hope is that since Clojure is all about breaking
away from the past, we would consider breaking away
from the past method of program development also.
Unfortunately, this requires more work from a programmer.
Is it a factor of ~1.5? Who knows. I use the factor-of-3.
The factor-of-3 comes from
ot;the person" who holds it all together?
Is your whole project "dead code" if certain people leave?
If you want your code to live, communicate.
Write words for people who will maintain your code but you'll never meet.
Tim Daly
Knuth fanboi
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You received this message becau
to another person. This almost certainly involves reordering
and restructuring code. The machinery needed to support literate
programming is trivial. See
http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/litprog.html
> ... (snip) ...
> * Tim Daly posted a tool that lets him essentially writ
> Find me a person who fluently used paredit that stopped and reverted back to
> manual parenthesis manipulation.
/me raises my hand.
Structural editing was useful in LispVM (on IBM mainframes) where the
display was 12 lines by 40 characters. It might also be useful for the
iPad lisping app. If
Re: org-mode.
I stand corrected. Some days my religious zeal overwhelms my fingers.
Thanks for setting the record straight.
Tim
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Note t
s, adjacent and intermixed with
the code, but written for humans-to-human communication. Clojure
is heavy with great ideas and they need to be communicated intact.
Tim Daly
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To
han one package (namespace) so I guess I just haven't
seen this as an issue. Styles vary.
If you're using namespaces I presume you're also exporting an API.
Logically that implies that the namespace and its functions would live
in a separate chapter I suppose.
Tim Daly
-
TeX is viewed as a document markup language but it is turing
complete. Occasionally people get ambitious. Here is
executable lisp in a Latex document:
ctan.org/pkg/lisp-on-tex
Perhaps some bright spot can do a Clojure-in-tex during the
next Google summer of code :-)
Tim Daly
--
--
You
ore you with it.
What I don't understand is your criteria for "what's important" and
how that translates to action.
If we can agree on "what's important" then the technical details would
have common criteria for "simple and good enough vs something that&#
complete, efficent, and well integrated
with the rest of the design.
This isn't really a technology problem. We have the skill to create
any technology we want. The problem is social. There needs to be a
focus on creating "professional standards". We need to raise the bar
of w
will follow, and express their wishes for the future.
* Prologue: These comments give introductory remarks before a major section
of code. A typical example can include the functions's purpose, return
value, constraints on input, or even implementation details.
* Unclassified
===
> Less trivial things that I would like to be able to do:
> - transclude documentation from secondary files, so that the developer
>of a piece of code sees a short piece of documentation, while users
>of code can see something longer.
> - expand the documentation system as I see fit;
> Compare Emacs Lisp, for example, which uses semi-structure
> in the comments to drive many of its features.
Speaking of Emacs, there are (at least) two doc systems available,
the emacs "info" system and org-mode. Both of those evolved due to
a need for a better documentation system.
The claim
Gregg,
> My original comment on litprog ("bad bad bad") was admittedly a little
> strong. I think its bad for some things, fine for others. And it's
> possible litprog conventions will evolve to address the problems some of us
> see with using it for programming in the large etc.
Could you expl
> Adding complexity and weaving heapings of prose in amongst the code
> isn't going to make the developer that wrote the above rewrite it in a
> better way. You'll just end up with more bad documentation getting in
> the way of what the code actually does. Bad documentation is worse than
> no docum
From: Didier Verna
ILC 2014 - International Lisp Conference
"Lisp on the Move"
August 14-17 2014, University of Montreal, Montreal, Canada
Sponsored by the Association of Lisp Users
In cooperation with: ACM SIGPLAN
Forward from Ralf Hemmecke:
On 05/22/2014 11:21 AM, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
> I can tell you I would rather maintain the four lines of C++ without
> the largely useless commentary.
That's a simple AXIOM program, but I'm sure one can easily translate it
into any programming language.
foo(a: Intege
function. If no code references the library then it won't get
documented.
Any living piece of software is going to have changes made but I'm
hoping that the core remain reasonably stable. Assuming, of course, I
can distinguish core code. Reading code is SO much fun :-)
Anyway, tha
out."
Fortunately statistics show that programmers retire into management
at age 35 so we won't have to wait that long. If there is any justice,
the managers will have to hire noobs to maintain code they wrote so
they get to listen to the noobs trash talk about their code. :-)
Tim Daly
at push/pull git-like updates among themselves?
A clone of Hacker News in Clojure would be a good GSOC project
as it is well defined and small enough for a single person effort.
Tim Daly
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well-connected people, a nice check, and a chance
to speak at a LISP conference.
Best of all, they don't even have to be literate programs! :-)
Tim Daly
Elder of the Internet
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To pos
Is it possible to follow the Common Lisp convention
of proclaim/declaim/declare in order to specify types?
Mark Engelberg wrote:
Thanks for the responses.
Going back to the naive factorial function:
(defn fact [n]
(if (zero? n) 1 (* n (fact (dec n)
Right now,
user=> (fact 40)
81591528324
ecise machine-level to
massive function semantics, e.g. (car ...) is a machine
pointer and (integrate ...) is a huge function but I can
freely mix them in (integrate (car ...)). I don't feel the
same "one-ness" in Clojure/Java.
In general, I'm a common lisp bigot :-)
Tim Daly
ound. Type hinting feels to me
like using symbol-property machinery in common lisp.
In any case, keep up the good work. I'm impressed with Clojure.
Tim Daly
Rich Hickey wrote:
On Jun 19, 2010, at 2:50 AM, Tim Daly wrote:
Is it possible to follow the Common Lisp convention
of proclaim/d
he did not want this solution.
Tim Daly
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firs
Frink.
Julian wrote:
Rich Hickey made reference in one of his videos to a language that
could convert between all different kinds of units and dimensions.
Does anybody recall what that was?
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To pos
Boxing and unboxing can be very confusing.
The "rules" need to be clearly stated somewhere.
It might help if we introduced an explicit syntax,
which might compile away, such as:
(box i)
(unbox i)
(with-unboxed [i 7] ...)
etc. I know Rich doesn't like "syntactic overhead"
but source languages a
We could always take the FORTRAN approach and make
identifiers that start with I through N default to
contagious behavior :-)
Rich Hickey wrote:
On Jun 22, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Mark Engelberg wrote:
The new uber-loop is fantastic.
So I guess the main point still to be finalized is whether the
ond. Emacs doesn't
even need to know that it is parsing lisp since paren-bouncing
is enabled even in fundamental-mode buffers. However, there
has to be a special parser for clojure.
I guess it just depends on what you are used to but in this
case the syntactic change seems spurious to me.
Tim Daly
Nothing about lisp is particularly difficult.
Pandoric macros, closures, continuations,
reader tables, circular structures, lexical
vs dynamic scoping, indefinite lifetimes,
quasiquoted expressions, or any of the other
simple ideas.
They are, of course, only simple once you "get it".
Like everyt
Mike Meyer wrote:
"cageface" wrote:
The problem is that actually getting anything
done with Common Lisp is a nightmare.
Really? Axiom was one of the three largest commercial computer
algebra systems (alongside Mathematica and Maple). It contains
about 1 million "things of code" ("lines o
This is a well-solved problem in open source.
It involves keep a "gold version" of the system on some well-known
site (e.g. sourceforge) and a "silver version" on another well-known
site (e.g. github).
The gold version is released on a regular basis (say, once every 2
months). It is tested using
Mark,
Knuth originally created an idea of literate programming
where you embed source code into latex documents. He called
such documents "web" documents (because nobody had yet used
the word "web").
tangle doc.web ==> executable source code
weave doc.web ==> latex document
Knuth's web assumes
Mark Fredrickson wrote:
Hello Tim,
Knuth originally created an idea of literate programming
where you embed source code into latex documents. He called
such documents "web" documents (because nobody had yet used
the word "web").
Thanks for passing along your code. I have some famili
l tools at all.
I can supply the latex macros and the (common)-lisp code to
implement the above techniques.
Tim Daly
Tassilo Horn wrote:
On Wednesday 21 July 2010 06:32:02 Mark Engelberg wrote:
Hi Mark,
I would definitely welcome a literate Clojure tool.
You might want to have a l
Antony Blakey wrote:
On 21/07/2010, at 10:29 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
The PLT Scheme mechanism mentioned above is a good idea
but it has a niche quality to it.
Latex is an industry standard publication language. Many
books and technical papers, especially in mathematics,
use it. Some
Antony Blakey wrote:
On 22/07/2010, at 3:08 AM, Tim Daly wrote:
"Language integration" is a false goal. It is technically possible to
call functions in any language from latex but unnecessary in general.
It is technically possible to generate latex from any language.
Hav
ng.
Instead I recommend watching the youtube MIT course on the Structure
and Interpretation of Computer Programs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY
Tim Daly
faenvie wrote:
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
a prophetic writing ... great !
tha
know.
See which one cycles fastest. I'd bet that's your favorite language.
Tim Daly
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How do I construct
Set s = new HashSet();
in clojure?
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I have java code that reads:
Set s = new HashSet();
I don't know how to write the parameter in clojure
where MyType is a Java class.
Laurent PETIT wrote:
2010/8/10 Tim Daly <mailto:d...@axiom-developer.org>>
How do I construct
Set s = new HashSet();
in clojure
, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Tim Daly <mailto:d...@axiom-developer.org>> wrote:
I have java code that reads:
Set s = new HashSet();
I don't know how to write the parameter in clojure
where MyType is a Java class.
Laurent PETIT wrote:
2010/8/10 Tim Daly ma
tions/checkedSet my-set MyType))
#'user/checked
user=> (.add checked (MyType.))
true
user=> (.add checked (java.util.Date.))
java.lang.ClassCastException: Attempt to insert class java.util.Date
element
into collection with element type class user.MyType (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
On Aug 10,
I find that I'm horribly confused at this point about what a
protocol "is". Can someone use some other comp. sci. terms to
define this idea? I thought of them as Java interfaces with
default methods but clearly I'm wrong.
Sean Devlin wrote:
I've posted a follow up to my article yesterday about p
Suppose you make a file containing a
(def foo)
form for every defn in every file and then load that first?
Does that solve the circular reference problem?
Tim Daly
Eric Lavigne wrote:
The (def g) in your example has the same effect as the (declare foo)
in my example.
I discussed two problems
omatically forward
declares everything needed?
On Aug 13, 10:49 pm, Tim Daly wrote:
Suppose you make a file containing a
(def foo)
form for every defn in every file and then load that first?
Does that solve the circular reference problem?
Tim Daly
Eric Lavigne wrote:
The (def g) in yo
the thought process until the
s-expression is complete :-)
Tim Daly
michele wrote:
Wouldn't that make it easier to keep track of them.
Example:
(defn myfn-a [a b]
(if (zero? b)
a
(recur
(afn (bfn (...)) a)
(dec b
(defn myfn-b [a b]
(if (zero? b)
a
(
e the hardest barrier
to the adoption of Clojure. "Real Java Programmers" are not going
to like the bracing style (or lack thereof) in Clojure.
Tim Daly
Greg wrote:
It's almost purely community convention that has been adopted from Lisp.
You may be interested in this link:
http:
ook at core.clj I
don't see any
outdenting going on but I find the code highly readable. In fact, I
can't find a single
instance of outdenting anywhere in src/clj/clojure. Rich has obviously
discovered
his inner lisp.
Anyway, since this is a "reli
Write a compiler routine to detect tail recursion.
It is my (limited) understanding that Java can perform
tail recursion elimination but only under limited
conditions.
Is there a way to detect tail recursion in Clojure and
dynamically rewrite the code to do real recursion rather
than using recur
suggesting
that the whole set of classes get wrapped in a phantom method.
The code that comes out of the compiler does not need to mirror
the code that went into the compiler. That's the whole point of
doing compiler optimizations.
Perhaps a literature pointer could make the restriction c
ication but
tries to keep the Java "false" boolean idea around but I find that it
makes coding somewhat more tedious.
In Clojure, nil does not map to false in some cases and it always
comes as a surprise to me. I know that Scheme broke the unification,
which always surprises me and why
David Nolen wrote:
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Tim Daly <mailto:d...@axiom-developer.org>> wrote:
Televisions vs Monitors.
This is the whole point of deftype/defrecord and protocols. To get the
absolute best performance of the platform without having the pollute
re certain operations
I cannot do unless I'm connected. It's the late 90s
and this shouldn't be a blocking issue anymore.
Can I git-clone Maven so it will reach for a local repo?
Can I git-clone Clojure with a standalone build system?
Tim Daly
B Smith-Mannschott wrote:
On Sun, Aug 2
y, lisp doesn't care.
Since it is still "in the early days" of Clojure it might be a
good idea to follow the style set in clojure core.clj. You never
know when your code might become a candidate for inclusion and
the last thing you want is to be rejected for style.
Tim Daly
kyle smith
each level of structure. If your "pretty-printer" says that all
(defun) forms (well, (defn) forms) are "required" to start in
column 1 then this loses the semantics of my nesting. There are
no general rules that cover all of the things I can think in lisp.
That makes lisp co
t
to find a discussion of why 32-way trie-like structures are used in
data structures or why data structures are immutable. This information
is available in some videos but has not been associated with the code.
Tim Daly
Mark Engelberg wrote:
I spent some time recently documenting a large clojure
trong story line. Good code, like good characters, should have
strong motivations for what gets done. We should just be able to download
the Clojure "book", read it, and execute it.
Maybe Stu can get his book editor on board :-)
Tim Daly
Joop Kiefte wrote:
To have a good idea of how
Actually what you seem to be trying to do is create a new kind
of defn function which creates named functions as a side-effect.
This is similar to the common lisp defstruct function which
creates accessors. Define your own "defn" function, such as
"defthing" and let it do the side-effects for you
In common lisp I use the (disassemble) function which generally
gives back an assembler listing of the code that would be executed.
Is there a Java function which will return the byte codes that get
executed? Could this be used to create a (disassemble) function for
Clojure? Having such a functio
t;byte codes" were and they were still able to generate code (curiously
they tended to be "design pattern programmers" so there may be a
connection).
See http://dj-java-decompiler.software.informer.com/3.9 for a piece
of software that can show the byte codes. There are many others
There is a movement afoot in the common lisp community to
implement quicklisp which is similar to the perl cpan site
or debian. It would be useful if there was a quicklisp (or
asdf) for Clojure. Thus you could "apt-get" a library for
clojure.
Tim Daly
On 9/27/2010 1:47 AM, David Sle
It will also give a firm basis for discussing ideas.
Tim Daly
On 10/25/2010 5:54 AM, Mark Nutter wrote:
I tried to have a go at this, but then I realized it's a bit difficult
to specify. For example, if you have
(defmethod bar [42 _] ..) ; and
(defmethod bar [_ 16] ..)
which one should be
would allow all kinds of dispatching control.
Tim Daly
On 10/25/2010 5:55 PM, Mark Nutter wrote:
So in this particular case I wouldn't care, but in general I'd expect
the prefer-method stuff to kick in. :)
Oops, forgot about prefer-method. My noobishness is showing again.
Well, in for
I use emacs to write Java code for work.
I even use fundamental mode because I don't want emacs
changing my buffer while I work.
I don't find that IDEs add any value to programming
and they often get in my way.
I guess I must be part amish :-)
Tim Daly
On 10/27/2010 12:10 PM, M
Has anyone thought about putting clojure on javascript?
Tim Daly
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It is worth learning to write macros just
for that insight alone.
Tim Daly
On 10/28/2010 3:55 PM, Raoul Duke wrote:
hi,
not looking to stir up a pot, looking to learn from people's
experience. i've heard that in CL land, one is told to avoid macros as
long as possible. i've heard
On 11/2/2010 12:38 PM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
2010/10/30 Tim Daly:
Macros in lisp get used for three general purposes, at least
in my experience.
The first purpose is efficiency. In common lisp you will find
that you can generate very machine-efficient (aka optimized
fortran level) binary
ve Lisp programmer who would have created
the slide deck I saw. Native Java programmers have no equivalent
construct to macros (no, decorations are not macros) so they would
find macros complex, limited, and obscure.
Tim Daly
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In a common lisp setting a symbol could be represented
as vector containing slots. Two of the slots are of interest,
the function slot and the value slot. The symbol looks like:
--
| function | value | package | alist |
---
Ask Rich if you can use his Ants example.
His comment about running it on the Azul(?) machine
is interesting.
On 12/7/2010 7:56 PM, Alex Baranosky wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm going to be doing a 15 minute Clojure lighting talk in a few weeks
for work. I've been having trouble finding a nice topic fo
mbol, not a function so you get an error.
In a lisp that evaluates the first slot until it gets a
function then
((quote +) 2 3) ==> (+ 2 3) ==> ( 2 3) ==> 5
Tim Daly
On 12/8/2010 2:40 PM, javajosh wrote:
I was looking at quote.
user=> (quote 1)
1
user=> (quote)
nil
user=> (q
On 12/8/2010 4:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
Hi,
Am 08.12.2010 um 22:06 schrieb Tim Daly:
There are 2 kinds of lisps based on the meaning of a symbol.
Symbols have structure "slots".
And then there is clojure where symbols are just symbols without any slots. When the
For those who were not around when the Common Lisp
standard was being debated you might find this interesting:
http://lisp.geek.nz/weekly-repl/
Common Lisp Standardization: The good, the bad, and the ugly
by Peter Seibel
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If you are interested in Monads or want a good
example of why macros are really useful, this is
worth studying:
http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm
It is in common lisp but could probably be translated
to clojure by some bright-spot.
Tim Daly
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You received this
I am currently working on an MPI package for Clojure.
This crossed my mailbox and may be of interest to the
clojure community.
Tim Daly
~~
4th European Lisp Symposium
Special Focus on
Steve is trolling with that Lisp post.
There is so much noise in what he says,
there is no point beginning to reply.
And all of it would be off-topic.
Ignore it.
Tim Daly
On 12/14/2010 11:23 PM, Alex Osborne wrote:
javajosh writes:
Just ran across:
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006
most of
Yegge's concerns about Lisp adoption. Thanks to Alex, I think that the
answer is almost certainly "yes".
@Tim Daly: I don't know a lot about Lisp, but I do know a little bit
about rhetoric vs. rationality, and that post had the ring of truth to
it. It read like the
This is an interesting read:
Solving the Expression Problem:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-clojure-protocols/index.html
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Is it possible to dispatch based on the return type/value?
That is, can I write a multimethods dispatch to distinguish
+(float,float) -> float
+(float,float) -> int
Tim Daly
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To po
, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
Hi,
Am 19.12.2010 um 00:07 schrieb Tim Daly:
Is it possible to dispatch based on the return type/value?
That is, can I write a multimethods dispatch to distinguish
+(float,float) -> float
+(float,float) -> int
(defmulti + (fn [x y ret] (vector (type x) (type
you suddenly
"get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages.
There is a distinct "before vs after" when you suddenly
internalize the language and IT changes YOU.
I recently felt that moment with Clojure.
Did anyone else experience the "ah-hah!"?
Tim Daly
-
in
over my career, Lisp has been the one language that
truly changed the way I understood programming. Many
people have mentioned the "ah hah!" moment when
speaking about Lisp.
Tim Daly
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T
t; moment occurred I didn't know that
it was my working definition of Lisp.
Tim Daly
"Your enlightment may vary" :-)
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Note tha
,
"I've got an object hammer so everything is an
object nail" approach.
Tim Daly
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On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that other people
don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
other languages. However, I have only had
the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience
with lisp.
On 12/19/2010 8:33 PM, Eric Schulte wrote:
Tim Daly writes:
Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based
systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows
currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have
not found the "ah-hah!&q
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that other people
don't have the "ah-hah!" experience
On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
I didn&#
On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19
such, it suggests that
"Advocacy is volunteering". If you advocate better documentation and
well-written summaries then volunteer to do it.
Tim Daly
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ng", etc. I was
"getting the STM and immutability concepts" but those were not
sufficient to establish (for me) "Lisp". Your enlightenment may vary.
Tim Daly
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This is another view of the Clojure STM idea, from the Haskell camp:
http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Programming-in-the-Age-of-Concurrency-Software-Transactional-Memory
Recently, we visited MSR Cambridge(UK) to meet some of the great minds
working there. In this case, we were fortuna
site:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/pubs/pubs.html
Tim Daly
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Some christmas day video entertainment:
STM at Microsoft
http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Software-Transactional-Memory-The-Current-State-of-the-Art
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