On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote:
is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed
(they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up.
No, because the pulse length may be far inferiour to the sample clock
rate. You may also need to capt
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:51 AM, Ian S. King wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
> >
> > WTF did I just read.
> >>
> >> Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the
> "yodeling
> > jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake i
On 03/02/2017 08:01, "Christian Corti"
wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed
>> (they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up.
>
> No, because the pulse length may be far infer
> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan wrote:
>
> ...
> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other
> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more
> about batch-11.
You mean DOS/BATCH? Yes, that would run on that machine, it's an
Hi,
I am looking to swap or buy the following HP-Integral IPC (portable HP-UX box)
interface boards:
- HP-IL interface
- 1 MB memory board
Does anybody have a manual for the HP-IL interface board?
Could offer HP 9000 interface or memory boards.
Martin
> From: William Degnan
> my focus has been on just getting an 11/40 hardware working
Rightly and properly so...
> I suppose I should be happy with RT-11 given my circumstances.
Unix really is a significant improvement, we really need to make sure you can
run it. Don't worry about th
On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote:
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
WTF did I just read.
Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the "yodeling
jellyfish" bit. I'd give him fake internet points if I could. :)
Also,
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham
wrote:
> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that
> with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between
> adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin
> surely I sh
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 11:19 PM, william degnan wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I am curious to see what OS's run on an 11/40 without the EIS card other
>> than RT-11. I am researching this. I have always wanted to learn more
>> about batch-11.
>
>
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Noel Chiappa
wrote:
> > From: William Degnan
>
> > my focus has been on just getting an 11/40 hardware working
>
> Rightly and properly so...
>
> > I suppose I should be happy with RT-11 given my circumstances.
>
> Unix really is a significant improveme
On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this
specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each
other with a direct signal path between adjacent address
and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin
surely I should be able
Different strokes for different folks.
I've only used a logic analyzer once and even for that I found
it cumbersome and inadequate. I needed it to solve a sequential
problem that had a lot of time sequential actions.
Things like is does this, then this, then that. Ignore it and restart
if it d
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:18 AM, John Forecast wrote:
>
> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > paul
> >
> It looks as though Bill only has RL02 drives on the 11/40 so that would
> rule out DOS/BATCH. One of the later 3.x releases of RSX-11M should be OK
> (4.x see
> From: Paul Koning
> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would
> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that)
I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around?
> didn't use the MMU
Huh? He's got an MMU (I think): it's the EIS he'
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:46 PM, dwight wrote:
> Different strokes for different folks.
Yes. It depends a lot on what you work on, what you are trying to do, and
how you think.
This is a problem with mailing lists. There are many knowledgeable people
here, but each has their own way of doing thin
On 2017-02-03 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case
is that with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal
path between adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of
0
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 11:50 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:18 AM, John Forecast wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> paul
>>>
>> It looks as though Bill only has RL02 drives on the 11/40 so that would
>> rule out DOS/B
On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote:
I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if ever
used these days.
Paul.
the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very
nice compact setup if the builtin channels were sufficient.
thanks
jim
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:20 AM, william degnan wrote:
> I am
> familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E
> M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I know
> of, WWW search etc. Can anyone suggest the name of the test so I can run
> it?
>
I
> >
> > Bill
>
> RSX-11M V3.2 supports RL02s and bitsavers has images of the 3.2 RL01
> distribution disks. I’m not sure if those will boot if copied to an RL02.
>
> John.
>
>
I saw that, and was thinking the same thing
b
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:20 AM, william degnan
> wrote:
> > I am
> > familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E
> > M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I
> know
> > of, WWW sear
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM, william degnan
wrote:
>
>
>
>> >
>> > Bill
>>
>> RSX-11M V3.2 supports RL02s and bitsavers has images of the 3.2 RL01
>> distribution disks. I’m not sure if those will boot if copied to an RL02.
>>
>> John.
>>
>>
> I saw that, and was thinking the same thing
> b
On 2 February 2017 at 23:21, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough!
A friend of mine, Charlie Stross, recently had to rewrite the outline
of a novel because his bleak dystopian vision of the near-future "free
world" wasn't _nearly_ bleak enough and the actual w
> A friend of mine, Charlie Stross
I love this. Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine. The laundry
files are particularly crunchy. The Internet is awesome.
On 03/02/2017 15:27, "Tony Duell" wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham
> wrote:
>
>> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case is that
>> with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal path between
>> adjacent address and data pins that h
On 3 February 2017 at 19:32, Josh Miller wrote:
> I love this. Mr. Stross's work is a favorite of mine. The laundry
> files are particularly crunchy. The Internet is awesome.
He's a superb writer. I have all of his books up to about 2012,
because he gave me copies of them last time I visited
On 2017-02-03 1:23 PM, jim stephens wrote:
On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote:
I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if
ever used these days.
Paul.
the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very
nice compact setup if the builtin channe
On 03/02/2017 16:41, "Jon Elson" wrote:
> On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this
>> specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each
>> other with a direct signal path between adjacent address
>> and data pins that has a resista
I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about
trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing.
If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Tony Duell
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:06
>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is.
It's
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Koning
>
>> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would
>> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that)
>
> I'd love to have an old RSTS-11, is there any variant around?
Yes, on bitsavers. B
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
>>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
>>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
>
> Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
> high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
> significantly m
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote:
> I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about
>
> trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing.
>
> If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much.
Yes. I once explained faultfinding in this way. The technical
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
>>
>> Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
>> high-frequency sign
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is faulty'.
It won't be magic, though...
:-)
On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is fa
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
>> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>>
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:08 PM, jim stephens wrote:
>
>
> On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
>>> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>>
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Paul Koning
> >
> >> Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would
> >> be RSTS-11 (V4, or I suppose V3 if you can find that)
> >
> > I'd love to hav
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote:
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is faulty'.
It won't be magic, though...
:-)
Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest of it could
probably be done in software.
What would the "System Requ
>
>
>
> I was able to get the extended three cables so I can put the M7238 EIS
> card on a riser so I can probe for faults, and maybe if I am lucky boot
> XXDP+. With the EIN installed I can't boot RT-11
>
> I mean EIS, not EIN.
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 3:25 PM, william degnan wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Feb 3, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa
>> wrote:
>>>
From: Paul Koning
>>>
Another OS that would run on your machine (as well as an 11/20) would
be RSTS-11
On 2017-02-03 3:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote:
I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about
trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing.
If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much.
Yes. I once explained fa
>
> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw
> your own...
Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning
a grandmother
and sucking eggs ;-)
More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just one that
shows what is
connected to wha
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> Hmmm...
>> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
>> is faulty'.
>> It won't be magic, though...
>> :-)
>>
>
> Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>
> > What would the "System Requirements" be?
> > Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date,
> > and need to be upgraded?
> >
>
> I'll add that in a future upgr
I once worked with a device that came close to telling you
that U15 was failing.
It was called a signature analyzer.
It was good as a first pass production tester.
It was not something I'd expect a hobbyist to use.
It needed a pin bed to match the board under test.
It wasn't good enough to ca
>
>
> >>
> >>
> > So you're saying for a system with a MMU but no working EIS (removed for
> > now) and 64KW RAM (half populated M7891) you're suggesting which OS? I
> > still have to research the best options, RSX-11M?
>
> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that
>
On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote:
>> As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a
>> brain.
>>
>> -tony
> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and
> draw your own...
I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a schematic but I've drawn out a co
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that
> they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS...
>
Is this actually true? I've been working on getting my PDP-11/40 running
recently,
Will wrote...
--
OK. Hopefully I can repair my EIS board then. Otherwise it's RT-11.
--
Don't forget the RT-11 + TSX+ option, very nice timesharing system.
http://tsxplus.classiccmp.org
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:00 PM, dwight wrote:
> I once worked with a device that came close to telling you
> that U15 was failing.
>
> It was called a signature analyzer.
> It was good as a first pass production tester.
>
It required that the device under test be put in a state where the signals
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that
>> they are dealing with non-broken systems. Systems with MMU all have EIS...
>>
>
> Is this act
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> > On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Paul Koning
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm not sure there is one. DEC OS designers typically would assume that
> >> they are dealing with non-b
On 2017-02-03 4:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw
your own...
Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning
a grandmother
and sucking eggs ;-)
More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> ...
>> What I meant is that the 11/40 has EIS standard, according to the PDP11
>> architecture handbook. So an OS that depends on MMU would be designed for
>> 11/40, 11/45, etc. all of
On 2017-02-03 5:05 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote:
As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a
brain.
-tony
...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and
draw your own...
I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a
> From: William Degnan
> I was able to get the extended three cables
Excellent!
> I can put the M7238 EIS card on a riser so I can probe for faults
I'm all agog to hear what you find out!
> and maybe if I am lucky boot XXDP+. With the EIN installed I can't boot
I thought the m
> 3) An HP1630. I forget which one, probably a 1630G. It does all I want. I was
> also AFAIK the last HP LA to have a proper component-level service manual.
> It's also a classic computer in its own right (6809 + 6829 MMU). Oddly the CRT
> is scanned vertically, I have no idea why.
>
Hello Tony,
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> I saw that stated earlier, too, but DEC's PDP11 architecture handbook
> doesn't appear to confirm that. Either that or the model differences table
> is sloppy.
>
The model differences table is definitely sloppy. There are discrepancies
betwe
On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote:
> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations,
> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent
> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of
> picoseconds. That sort of orde
Adrian
What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch.
These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address.
What is important is that there are no glitchs when ALE transitions.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham
S
On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 07:28:21PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 2 February 2017 at 23:21, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > Frankly, it SCARES me that that wasn't absurd enough!
>
>
> A friend of mine, Charlie Stross, recently had to rewrite the outline
> of a novel because his bleak dystopian vision of t
On 03/02/2017 23:29, "dwight" wrote:
> Adrian
>
> What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch.
>
> These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address.
>
> What is important is that there are no glitchs when ALE transitions.
Ah, ok, there's a glitch filter t
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 5:55 AM, geneb wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian S. King wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 4:24 PM, geneb wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Ian Finder wrote:
>>>
>>> WTF did I just read.
>>>
Fred in absolutely rare form. I nearly choked on coffee at the
"yode
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> Not necessarily MUL, in a kernel, but definitely SOB.
I've run into needing SOB just between the PDP-11/04 and PDP11/34.
-ethan
I'm not sure you want to hide glitches. There are times
when you might want to see them.
It is more about knowing when a glitch has meaning and when it doesn't.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 3:46:32 PM
To: Gene
On 02/03/2017 04:10 PM, dwight wrote:
> I'm not sure you want to hide glitches. There are times
>
> when you might want to see them.
>
> It is more about knowing when a glitch has meaning and when it
> doesn't.
Indeed. That's one of the the things that impressed me about the early
HP 1615 logic
On 02/03/2017 01:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
significantly more slowly - somewhere
On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote:
But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations,
not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent
ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or
I have at least one 11/44 for sale, at least one 11/24 for sale. I can
configure them as needed within reason. They can be packed and shipped as
freight carrier of your choice or pickup in IL. or IN. Please contact me
off list.
Also the following parts:
M7090
M7094
M7095
M7096
M7097
M7098
$300/
All the glitches are at the beginning of the ALE. There is nothing
there that has any meaning. Things are changing at this time. Not
every thing changes at the same rate. That is why they have an
ALE to mark when the address is good. When high, the circuit address
latch is open. When ALE goes l
Remember what both Tony and I said earlier. You have to know
what is suppose to be happening. Just probing around, looking
for something funny looking is not usually very fruitful.
You really need to spend some time looking at data sheets.
Dwight
From: dwight
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