On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Federico G. Benavento wrote:
> I'm impressed by how the "it'd be nice" position is stronger than
> "it'd be useful" one.
>
Some would argue plan 9 isn't useful at all. In fact, I bet most people
would argue that, and that we're a minority.
How big is the inter
com
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Reply-To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Date: Tue Mar 31 17:00:43 CET 2009
> Subject: Re: [9fans] GSOC: Drawterm for the iPhone
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:36 AM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen
> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:36 AM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen
>> wrote:
>>> The fact that rio and/or acme have a limited usage model with such a device
>>> and/or multitouch in general is
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:36 AM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
>> The fact that rio and/or acme have a limited usage model with such a device
>> and/or multitouch in general is a shame -- wouldn't it be nice to fix that.
>
> This is a very good po
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> The fact that rio and/or acme have a limited usage model with such a device
> and/or multitouch in general is a shame -- wouldn't it be nice to fix that.
This is a very good point. As much as I like rio, I can't help but be
aggravated
The fact that rio and/or acme have a limited usage model with such a
device and/or multitouch in general is a shame -- wouldn't it be nice
to fix that. Drawterm (or ports to devices like the DS) are not ends
in themselves but a means to exploring new interface models, ideas,
and applicatio
>Inferno plug-in for Safari?
We had a go at a plug-in for Firefox in gsoc2007.
These things (like drawterm, or a hosted Inferno port) are either very easy
or very hard. "very easy" because if the environment is suitable, the
portability
interface for hosted Inferno is basically trivial:
513 F
One of the principle reasons for the DS(and pending DSi port) was the
novel interfaces the system provided. While we can't hack on the
iPhone on an OS level directly(like we did with the DS) a drawterm
that conformed to Apple's guidelines could provide a novel interface
to experiment with new forms
While 'experimenting with multitouch' is a worthwhile goal (although
highly speculative, chording *and* text input are fundamnetal to the
Plan 9 user interface, both of which seem really hard with
multitouch); doing so by porting drawterm to the iPhone seems like an
incredibly rounabout way to do s
2009/3/31 André Günther :
> The only thing I personally see to make remote access on devices such as the
> iPhone an useful and enjoyable experience is to work with the multitouch
> capabilities. Thus providing an easy way for mouse chording and also certain
> gesture support for managing the scree
I'm impressed by how the "it'd be nice" position is stronger than
"it'd be useful" one.
--
Federico G. Benavento
I know it's difficult to argue with you, also because just about every
email of you is repeating the same stuff.
Now the "VNC might suffice" objection is new and i want to reply to
it. Again I am repeating myself here, but obivously there's not other
way telling you:
The only thing I pers
hi uriel,
i guess i should have revised the mail before sending.
i just checked how acme looks in this tool. i didnt try to use all
features of acme. i am sure it will have problems. the original post
in engadget also says it is not fully ready.
this apart, long back when iphone was released, i
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Tharaneedharan Vilwanathan
wrote:
> hi,
>
> sorry if i have missed any prior discussion, but i would like to
> mention that i am curious about this effort.
>
> to me, iphone (or similar device) seems to be an appropriate device
> that is small enough to be a porta
hi,
sorry if i have missed any prior discussion, but i would like to
mention that i am curious about this effort.
to me, iphone (or similar device) seems to be an appropriate device
that is small enough to be a portable drawterm device (eventually it
could become cheaper too). one can quickly co
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Uriel wrote:
> How many people can actually claim that they will for certain use such
> iphone drawterm? Because the idea of using rio or acme from a
> touchscreen doesn't seem very practical to me (to put it very mildly).
Is there a similar project that would be
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Anthony Sorace wrote:
> to ron's latest point:
> seeing it on the G1 would be great, too. but we have a student with an
> iPhone who's said he'd like to do it, and at least a handful of people
> here have said they'd like to see it, and have the device.
How many p
to ron's latest point:
seeing it on the G1 would be great, too. but we have a student with an
iPhone who's said he'd like to do it, and at least a handful of people
here have said they'd like to see it, and have the device. if the same
conditions get met for the G1, i see no reason we wouldn't ente
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:40 PM, ron minnich wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 8:02 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
>
>> There is always the possibility of leveraging the jailbreak, which
>> would also let us possibly do something better than just drawterm.
>> FUSE was ported to the darwin kernel, I don't
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 8:02 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
> There is always the possibility of leveraging the jailbreak, which
> would also let us possibly do something better than just drawterm.
> FUSE was ported to the darwin kernel, I don't see why 9P can't be. But
> I doubt google would want anythin
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:51 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>> Legitimate iPhone apps can access the screen, camera, accelerometer,
>> gps and a portion of the filesystem. One could technically write a
>> drawterm that "polled" for instructions from a remote CPU server and
>> act on the local devices.
> Legitimate iPhone apps can access the screen, camera, accelerometer,
> gps and a portion of the filesystem. One could technically write a
> drawterm that "polled" for instructions from a remote CPU server and
> act on the local devices.
>
> Not sure if Apple would construe this as "executi
On 26-Mar-09, at 8:36 PM, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen
wrote:
I have VNC lite on my iphone, which amazingly isn't jailbroken...
-eric
sure, but that's a client. i thought you were talking about exporting
iPhone's screen and interfaces a
If you take the right approach you should be able to pave the way for
all three. Just keep the interface modular and implement the hooks
for the target you are most comfortable with.
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Uriel wrote:
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM,
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
>> A 9vx, p9p or inferno cocoa port is a project that seems fairly
>
> I can do one of these; which is the most needed/wanted?
Personally I have no preference, any of the three would be great to
have, probably the p9p one is the one better
2009/3/26 Pietro Gagliardi :
> On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
>
>> I'm merely trying to debunk roadblocks which others
>> seem to want to through in his way.
>
> I don't want to throw a roadblock in this student's way. (In fact, drawterm
> on iPhone benefits me too, though
On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
I'm merely trying to debunk roadblocks which others
seem to want to through in his way.
I don't want to throw a roadblock in this student's way. (In fact,
drawterm on iPhone benefits me too, though that benefit would come in
or after
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:36 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
>> I have VNC lite on my iphone, which amazingly isn't jailbroken...
>>
>> -eric
>
> sure, but that's a client. i thought you were talking about exporting
> iPhone's scree
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
>>The difference between a VNC client and drawterm (from a rules
>>perspective) is difficult to see
>
> i supposed the difference was /mnt/term
>
Yeah, but there are plenty of apps which allow the phone to act as a
file server.
It likely won
>The difference between a VNC client and drawterm (from a rules
>perspective) is difficult to see
i supposed the difference was /mnt/term
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:39 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
>>
>> That makes zero sense. As per the VNC discussion, there's already
>> precedent for exporting screen and interfaces.
>
> No, it makes perfect sense, if you actually know that there are VNC
> clients on the phone, but not servers. You should
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> I have VNC lite on my iphone, which amazingly isn't jailbroken...
>
> -eric
sure, but that's a client. i thought you were talking about exporting
iPhone's screen and interfaces as one would using a vnc server.
I have VNC lite on my iphone, which amazingly isn't jailbroken...
-eric
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:29 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
>> That makes zero sense. As per the VNC discussion, there's already
>> precedent for exporting screen and interfaces.
>> That does leave room for apple to r
> the only problem is, without the iPhone tag it just doesn't sound so
> cool anymore, does it? :)
Apple restrict the iPhone for the same reason all religions interfere
with sex: it is a measurement of the success of their marketing that
people still buy their product despite the discomfort.
That
A 9vx, p9p or inferno cocoa port is a project that seems fairly
reasonable and I think everyone (even those that don't use Macs) can
agree on (and then if somebody wants they can port it to the other
draw users).
uriel
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 7:50 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
> let's rephrase t
let's rephrase the project. screw the iPhone temporarily (cool as it
may be) and do a straight cocoa drawterm rewrite. a cocoa-native
drawterm can explore all the functionality of the iphone interface
(gestures, etc) and much more, without all the restrictions that apple
forces on iPhone developer
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:04 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 07:54:57PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
>>> One nice thing about drawterm is it lets you export the iphone's
>>> interfaces to Plan 9 -- that could lead
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:29 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
>> That makes zero sense. As per the VNC discussion, there's already
>> precedent for exporting screen and interfaces.
>> That does leave room for apple to restrict access to camera, location,
>> orientation, etc. -- but I see no reason w
> That makes zero sense. As per the VNC discussion, there's already
> precedent for exporting screen and interfaces.
> That does leave room for apple to restrict access to camera, location,
> orientation, etc. -- but I see no reason why they would.
as far as I can see Veency (the VNC server) is f
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:04 PM, J.R. Mauro wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 07:54:57PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
>> One nice thing about drawterm is it lets you export the iphone's
>> interfaces to Plan 9 -- that could lead to much more interesting
>
> I doubt you'll be able to do that wi
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 07:54:57PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> One nice thing about drawterm is it lets you export the iphone's
> interfaces to Plan 9 -- that could lead to much more interesting
I doubt you'll be able to do that with the insane restrictions Apple puts on
officially-sanctio
> >> especially if the kernel were (sort-of) pxe loaded so that clients would
> >> only need a local copy of the loader and changes would then be
> >> automaticly distributed.)
> >
> > Now that could be fun.
> >
>
> I smell the feminine stench -- flowers and butterflies -- of GSoC project
> propos
I wasn't commenting on the GSoC; just reinforcing Eric's
point that a multitouch interface would be very interesting
in itself and pointing out that such a device in conjunction
with a 3d extension would be even more fun! But yes, a
multitouch interface design would make a nice GSoC project.
Nothi
>> especially if the kernel were (sort-of) pxe loaded so that clients would
>> only need a local copy of the loader and changes would then be
>> automaticly distributed.)
>
> Now that could be fun.
>
I smell the feminine stench -- flowers and butterflies -- of GSoC project
proposal in every charac
> 9vx could replace drawterm in our environment, but i think
> the following work is required. 9vx needs
> - to be able to boot with no local files other than the executable,
> (i.e. directly from a plan 9 fs)
Actually, I've been using it this way for a while. More
precisely, when I'm on my home
2009/3/26 erik quanstrom :
> so please stop saying that 9vx or inferno make drawterm obsolete
> until that's actually true.
Additionally, both 9vx and inferno do actually execute code, which
would facilitate a breach of the SDK license.
> - erik
--me
On Thu Mar 26 08:53:03 EDT 2009, urie...@gmail.com wrote:
> Porting drawterm is a dead end with very little potential of either
> learning anything interesting or being useful in the future.
inferno is a red herring. you might as well suggest qnx as
an alternative.
while drawterm might not be ap
2009/3/26 Eric Van Hensbergen :
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Federico G. Benavento
> wrote:
>>I mean, drawterm for the iphone! why not for symbian?
>>
>
> I'd have no problems with those suggestions either, as far as multitouch
> goes there are probably even further platforms -- even just su
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Federico G. Benavento
wrote:
>> My personal belief is that this is a really bad, if not dangerous criteria
>> for projects. The goal for gsoc should not be to assign work for stuff 'we
>> need' -- if we need something we should be doing it ourselves. The goal
>>
Why not Inferno for iPhone or Symbian or Android? If one is going to
research multitouch/small-scree GUIs, one will want to write
applications, and being able to write apps in Limbo for either
platform would be a big win, plus you get all the drawterm
functionality for free, and could be the basis
> My personal belief is that this is a really bad, if not dangerous criteria
> for projects. The goal for gsoc should not be to assign work for stuff 'we
> need' -- if we need something we should be doing it ourselves. The goal
> should be to create interesting projects that attract new developer
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
> On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:32 AM, André Günther wrote:
>
> [1] http://www.minithink.org/mock.jpg
> (Sorry for the image quality)
>
> I just tried giving that to Interface Builder. Apparently, toolbars can only
> be on the horizontal in Cocoa T
On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:32 PM, "Federico G. Benavento" > wrote:
I think that gsoc is a good chance to get going stuff that
we need and we will really use.
My personal belief is that this is a really bad, if not dangerous
criteria for projects. The goal for gsoc should not be to assign w
On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:32 AM, André Günther wrote:
[1] http://www.minithink.org/mock.jpg
(Sorry for the image quality)
I just tried giving that to Interface Builder. Apparently, toolbars
can only be on the horizontal in Cocoa Touch. But this is an
interesting start.
The problem of how to
If we got o/live running on iPhone it wouldnt matter
if you drop the connection.
The layout and all the editing state is kept in the cpu server.
Thus it's very much like a screen blank/ resume instead of a
shutdown, reboot.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:21 AM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> Guess it
Hi,
here's the guy again that made the original post:
It seems the idea is almost dismissed and I am sorry for wasting your
time once again, but I'd like to reply to some arguments:
1) Close the iPhone App and your drawterm session is gone
A part of the project could be to write a server tha
> > ok, you can't compare porting inferno to the ds with drawterm for the iphone
> > drawterm is an app to get to a Plan 9 server, inferno is a self contained
> > operating system where you can get the advantage of writing your
> > own apps for it.
>
> Except that drawterm ends up being a mini-Pla
my questions were more about the real usage of iphone's dt
my short sighted vision of the gsoc is this, I didn't use any
of the stuff that gsoc 2007 got us, though I recognize the
inferno ds port.
but for the rest, it might be interesting, but is someone
using that stuff?
iphone's drawterm sounds
iJuke ;-)
On 25-Mar-09, at 8:24 PM, Tom Lieber wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen > wrote:
I think rio is probably not useful, but a purely text based
environtment
isn't interesting either...
The only thing I could see anyone using this for is if they wrote an
iPh
A text based environment isn't that interesting, but a 9p transport
that allows the end user to cache and store files on the device to be
reviewed through currently provided renderers/decoders (pdf, jpeg,
tiff, myriad of audio formats, html/xml) would be ideal. Given that
we're starting to
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> I think rio is probably not useful, but a purely text based environtment
> isn't interesting either...
The only thing I could see anyone using this for is if they wrote an
iPhone-tailored UI for controlling... something... and needed
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 21:25:07 CDT Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> Also, figuring out how multitouch works with plan 9 would be valuable
> in itself -- although admitadly could be done without an iPhone.
Exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread! An
intuitive multitouch interface that go
I think rio is probably not useful, but a purely text based
environtment isn't interesting either...
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:53 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
Also, we obviously cannot use rio, unless we greatly restrict the
user's visibility. Unless we provide
Theory and practice are different. As previous posters have noted, VNC
apps in the app store give us carte blanche on drawterm as long as we
don't run anything dynamically on the phone itself.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
> Also, we obviously cannot use rio, unless we
Also, we obviously cannot use rio, unless we greatly restrict the
user's visibility. Unless we provide zooming?
Maybe a text-based environment that runs exclusively off rc, sam,
acme, etc. with the standard keyboard at the bottom:
--
cpu%
i think the drawterm port would be interesting, but how to deal with
the mismatch between the touch and 3-button-mouse interfaces seems
like a big issue. i don't yet have an iPhone or iPod Touch, but for
me, drawterm would push me over for the later.
for André (or anyone with similar interests), i
Also, figuring out how multitouch works with plan 9 would be valuable
in itself -- although admitadly could be done without an iPhone.
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
Killed. From the license agreement for iPhone developers (which
require
If this were true there would be no vnc for iPhone, and there is. If
vnc is okay, drawterm or octopus would be too.
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
Killed. From the license agreement for iPhone developers (which
requires a free Apple Dev
I have the developer kit, I'd be willing to submit the resulting app
for free distro. That's at least one less barrier.
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:31 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
there are a couple of other problems that I see with dt on the iPhone:
- platform
2009/3/25 Pietro Gagliardi :
> Killed. From the license agreement for iPhone developers (which requires a
> free Apple Developer Connection account to view; sorry):
>
> "3.3.3 Without Apple’s prior written approval, an Application may not
> provide, unlock or enable a enable additional features or
Killed. From the license agreement for iPhone developers (which
requires a free Apple Developer Connection account to view; sorry):
"3.3.3 Without Apple’s prior written approval, an Application may not
provide, unlock or enable a enable additional features or
functionality through distribut
2009/3/25 andrey mirtchovski :
> there are a couple of other problems that I see with dt on the iPhone:
>
> - platform: google may be much more interested in seeing apps for the
> G-phone than they are for the rival (but then, a g-phone version may
> be much easier to do, and not worth a gsoc)
>
>
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:21:12PM -0500, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> Guess it depends on how you are using it. Wonder if you could save
> enough state to recover -- probably just Vnc at that point though.
>
> Would octopus have the same problem or would Op help solve the state
> problem?
>
>
there are a couple of other problems that I see with dt on the iPhone:
- platform: google may be much more interested in seeing apps for the
G-phone than they are for the rival (but then, a g-phone version may
be much easier to do, and not worth a gsoc)
- barrier to entry: the student should have
Guess it depends on how you are using it. Wonder if you could save
enough state to recover -- probably just Vnc at that point though.
Would octopus have the same problem or would Op help solve the state
problem?
-eric
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:11 PM, andrey mirtchovs
dropping the connection to the plan9 host every time you do something
else not a showstopper?
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Eric Van Hensbergen wrote:
> Wait, why?
Wait, why?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:02 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
one problem with the iPhone is that you can't run third-party apps in
the background. that pretty much kills drawterm dead.
one problem with the iPhone is that you can't run third-party apps in
the background. that pretty much kills drawterm dead.
One nice thing about drawterm is it lets you export the iphone's
interfaces to Plan 9 -- that could lead to much more interesting
possibilities beyond typing at the shell. Probably a better approach
would be to look at providing an octopus client for iPhone though...
-eric
On Wed, Mar 25,
ok, you can't compare porting inferno to the ds with drawterm for the iphone
drawterm is an app to get to a Plan 9 server, inferno is a self contained
operating system where you can get the advantage of writing your
own apps for it.
for this port to be useful you need 1) an iphone; 2) a cpu serve
2009/3/25 Federico G. Benavento :
> do we need drawterm for the iphone? is anyone going to use it?
>
> I mean, it's a tiny screen, typing on handhelds sucks, plus is not
> that there is killer app Plan 9 has that you _must_ run.
>
> am I forgetting something obvious?
Tiny screen, but reasonable r
do we need drawterm for the iphone? is anyone going to use it?
I mean, it's a tiny screen, typing on handhelds sucks, plus is not
that there is killer app Plan 9 has that you _must_ run.
am I forgetting something obvious?
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:57 PM, André Günther wrote:
>
> Hi dear Plan9
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