Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 03.06.2015 um 04:25 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have 
> mapped. 
> There are others that I can tag (when I get to them). 
> 
> They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.


is this really needed? There is also shop=photo which seems to overlap. There 
are also shops for movie cameras, but they don't fit into the video or still 
definition, while they are mainly the kind of object not already covered by 
shop=photo

Usage of shop=camera is around 2% of shop=photo


cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Wed, 2015-06-03 at 08:00 +0200, Maarten Deen wrote:
> On 2015-06-03 02:04, pmailkeey . wrote:
> > iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should
> > not show oneway at all.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> > In OSM if oneway=no then it's not oneway and the oneway tag should not
> > appear at all.
> 
> Here I don't agree.
> 
> > The only time oneway should appear is in the case of oneway=yes - and
> > the '=yes' is superfluous.
> 
> Some roads are implied oneway. E.g. junction=roundabout and 
> highway=motorway both imply that the road is one-way only. If for some 
> reason the object in case is not oneway, a oneway=no tag is very much 
> needed.

I think highway=motorway_link is also implied one-way. Are there any
others?

> There is also the occurence of oneway=-1 in case someone reverses the 
> direction of a way. What should be done when the only possibility for 
> oneway is either set or unset and the direction gets reversed? Should 
> reversing be disallowed? Should you get a warning "oneway street can not 
> be reversed"?

oneway=-1 now triggers a validation warning in JOSM. I have yet to see a
case where oneway=-1 is truly needed. Do any exist?

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 03.06.2015 um 10:39 schrieb Shawn K. Quinn :
> 
> I have yet to see a
> case where oneway=-1 is truly needed. Do any exist?


it depends what is "truly needed", most attributes and tags can be inverted 
without changing the way direction (forward, left, incline etc). Those ways 
that are direction dependent like coastline, retaining_wall, cliff etc are 
typically not describing features in the middle of a road 


cheers 
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[johnw]

Chain stores usually deal in camera sales and prints with a smattering of 
accessories and services, or a store that does head shots also rents gear or 
the like. They are usually a mixed bag. 

But even in my sleepy little town, there is a “camera” store. 

It is not a photo store, he doesn’t sell film, memory cards or prints. 

It’s not a portrait studio, he doesn’t take your picture. 

It’s not a camera repair only store (Like Kurt’s Camera in San Diego) 

He just sells camera gear. Mostly pre-owned. Only camera gear. 

just as there is a HiFi shop and an Electronics Shop, there is also a camera 
shop. And probably some other designated shops for every individual category of 
anything and everything ever made (hubcap shop, anyone? I bet somewhere in 
China there is a Blender shop. And a USB cable shop. 

Just defining a new value for shop=should be trivial, as long as it is 
documented first - as there are hundreds of shops that sell things and services 
that are not well defined. 

How many people are going to understand that I need a “wooden home goods” shop 
tag? There is an old traditional store that sells all the things for your house 
- from yard tools, to buckets, to bathtubs - made out of wood by an expert 
craftsman. They are not ornamental goods - you use them.  It is a Very Japanese 
store, and I should be able to craft and document a tag without too much voting 
trouble - as convincing people used to buying a plastic bucket at a home store 
that this class of store exists, and it isn’t similar to anything else is 
impossible - and tagging it correctly with the categories expected by the local 
users of the data makes the OSM database more useful in Japan is more important 
than if the tag is universally usable to all data customers (in countries who 
don’t care nor understand the categories, countries, or users of their service 
outside their home area anyways,). 

So if there is a specialty shop ( a wig shop, a light bulb shop, A shop only 
dealing with sewing machines, A shop just for shaved ice) - getting a tag made 
should be straightforward.

What we really really, desperately need is a documented and “approved” way of 
adding more than one of these categories to a single shop, when a standard 
definition doesn’t fit (Pogs & Ammunition is the most famous I know). 

AND putting it into some category or categories. This might mean subtags and 
sub-subtags - but it can grow to the correct size better than a flat list - 
espcially since we can’t add two tags with shop= currently (unless we approve 
shop1=foo shop2=bar, etc. 

Getting the pure specialty shops tagged is easy - it’s when shops have an odd 
combination of 2 or 3 of them - and are not a “class” of shop worth creating a 
new shop=tag for (like Pogs & ammo). 

Javbw




> On Jun 3, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 03.06.2015 um 04:25 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>> 
>> I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have 
>> mapped. 
>> There are others that I can tag (when I get to them). 
>> 
>> They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.
> 
> 
> is this really needed? There is also shop=photo which seems to overlap. There 
> are also shops for movie cameras, but they don't fit into the video or still 
> definition, while they are mainly the kind of object not already covered by 
> shop=photo
> 
> Usage of shop=camera is around 2% of shop=photo
> 
> 
> cheers
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Richard]

On Tue, Jun 02, 2015 at 07:28:11PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote:
> The reason for tag/value pairs such as oneway=no is that the absence of a
> oneway tag can mean either that it is unknown whether a given way is one-way
> or not, or that it is definitely known to be not be one-way. Using
> one-way=no states that it is definitely known not to be one-way.

not really ideal. Should we use 

 oneway=uknown

for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express 
that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
know or make a mess of the data.

Richard

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-06-03 12:08, Shaun McDonald wrote:

On 3 Jun 2015, at 07:00, Maarten Deen  wrote:


I agree that in every case where oneway=yes is not implied, oneway=no 
is superfluous (in a network design way), but that does not make 
oneway=no superfluous.




There are some cases where oneway=no is useful. For example an area
where there is lots of one way streets and only a few that are two
way, adding the oneway=no confirms that the data is correct rather
than the oneway=yes being missing. Similarly where a street was oneway
previously and has recently been made two way, this makes it explicit
that it is now two way in addition to whatever changeset note there
may be.


Yes, that's why I said "in a network design way". Looking at the data, 
oneway=no is not necessary on any object where it is not implied. 
However, adding it does make clear to people editing the map that it is 
not an omission if surrounding objects are all oneway=yes.


Regards,
Maarten

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard :
> 
> oneway=uknown
> 
> for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express 
> that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
> know or make a mess of the data.


armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, 
but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard. 

Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
maxheight =unknown
maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, 
name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc =unknown

We could also add turn_restrictions with unknown restrictions, e.g.
type=restriction
restriction=unknown
from to via etc.

Or we could draw unknown objects under the ice shelves of greenland, the 
antarctica or in other permafrost regions.

cheers 
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-06-03 11:50 GMT+02:00 johnw :

> But even in my sleepy little town, there is a “camera” store.
>
> It is not a photo store, he doesn’t sell film, memory cards or prints.
>
>

so this is the distinction, selling also film and memory cards and prints?
The current definition for shop=photo doesn't seem to require these, but it
also doesn't have a very clear definition, at least it seems very inclusive
what could make us think about using a subtag for the special camera shops
you describe: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto

Anyway, shop=camera (or whatever the exact wording will be), should have a
proposal to document the discussion and the use case for the tag.



> It’s not a portrait studio, he doesn’t take your picture.
>


that would be shop=photo_studio and likely also craft=photographer
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto_studio



>
> It’s not a camera repair only store (Like Kurt’s Camera in San Diego)
>
> He just sells camera gear. Mostly pre-owned. Only camera gear.
>



Still, according to what was written before, these are not places which
sell film cameras? Just photo cameras and photo camera lenses?
I guess there are even further specializations (digital photography vs.
analogue/chemical photography).

If these sell used devices, the second_hand property might also be of
interest: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Richard]

On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard :
> > 
> > oneway=uknown
> > 
> > for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to express 
> > that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they dont
> > know or make a mess of the data.
> 
> 
> armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source anyway, 
> but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become standard. 
> 
> Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
> maxheight =unknown
> maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat, surface, 
> name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv, etc 
> =unknown

constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you
substitute the "unknown" for "no". Nobody is saying that those should be
used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives.

Better ideas?

Richard

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Sachin Dole]

If oneway=unknown is not present then it already is implicitly there. Too
many tags showing that something is unknown may not be needed.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015, 6:49 AM Richard  wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 12:44:13PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Am 03.06.2015 um 12:18 schrieb Richard :
> > >
> > > oneway=uknown
> > >
> > > for the cases where soemone is not sure? Without a possibility to
> express
> > > that possibility armchair mappers can either stop mapping roads they
> dont
> > > know or make a mess of the data.
> >
> >
> > armchair mappers without local knowledge are not the preferred source
> anyway, but foo=unknown is a really bad idea that should not become
> standard.
> >
> > Otherwise a lot more tags can be added with very few benefit:
> > maxheight =unknown
> > maxspeed, maxwidth, snowmobile, horse, foot, bicycle, hgv, hazmat,
> surface, name, ref, lanes, start_date, width, operator, cycleway, bus, psv,
> etc =unknown
>
> constructive criticism please. You can ridicule whole OSM like this if you
> substitute the "unknown" for "no". Nobody is saying that those should be
> used on every object but judicious use may be better than the alternatives.
>
> Better ideas?
>
> Richard
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 03.06.2015 um 13:48 schrieb Richard :
> 
> Better ideas?


there's highway=road in use for situations where you trace from aerial imagery 
and have no clue about the situation on the ground (name, oneway, maxspeed etc)


cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:50 AM, johnw  wrote:

> How many people are going to understand that I need a “wooden home goods”
> shop tag? There is an old traditional store that sells all the things for
> your house - from yard tools, to buckets, to bathtubs - made out of wood by
> an expert craftsman. They are not ornamental goods - you use them.  It is a
> Very Japanese store,


Are you really going to use OSM for looking up those specialty stores and
see whether they sell item X ? I rather search the internet. After I read
the shop's website and verified they sell X, I take their address and name
and use those in e.g. OsmAnd to get me to the place.

Where would you end up otherwise ? Tag all breads and the days they are
available in a bakery ? All softdrinks and their brands available in a
supermarket ?

Of course for more tourist related features (cafes, pubs, hotels, etc, )
it's nice that I can find them directly via OsmAnd POIs without research on
the internet.

So I wonder whether it is not enough to have some rough classification for
the shops you are describing with links to their websites so one can do a
full text search there to see whether the shop fulfils one needs.

regards

m
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Eldredge]

Some businesses that were formerly in the film-developing trade have 
shifted over into producing prints from digital photos. The 
professional-grade color printers produce noticeably better results than 
consumer-grade printers do.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On June 2, 2015 11:33:08 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


the wiki for shop=photo "A shop dealing with photos or video in any way."
humm .. does not necessarily sell cameras ... ?
and 'develop photos'? errr .. that is now a specialist activity given the 
reduction in film cameras.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dphoto




Where as a camera shop does sell cameras... but may not 'deal with photos'
So someone has a redirect up on shop=camera... and the redirect says 
'everything with photos'?


Would it not be better to call them what is most common?
I think there are now more "camera shops" than "Photo shops" .. take a look 
in a phone book?

  :-D   Mine has a redirect to "Photographic Equipment" !!  So what do I know?

Maybe the wiki page for shop=photo needs to actually include
cameras?
"Photographic Equipment"?



On 3/06/2015 1:18 PM, Andre Engels wrote:
> I would say that fits very well with shop=photo, which can be found
> further down the page under "art, music, hobbies", and to which the
> link that you created now redirects (because someone in 2011 already
> thought "shop=camera" would better be "shop=photo")
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
>> mapped.
>> There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).
>>
>> They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.
>>
>> Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!
>>
>> I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Mike Thompson]

I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US National
Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in question, can
these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?

Thanks,

Mike
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US
> National Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in
> question, can these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?


They don't seem necessary since they can be calculated. I would remove.


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Mike Thompson]

Clifford,

Thanks, if there are no objections, I will delete the next time I am making
other edits.

Mike

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US
>> National Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in
>> question, can these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?
>
>
> They don't seem necessary since they can be calculated. I would remove.
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US
> National Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in
> question, can these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?
>

Those are leavings from an import.  GIS systems often export such
information for good reasons.
However given that OSM is itself a geographic database, these tags are pure
junk in OSM.

If there's a primary key from the original source, that has some value, do
leave that.



Also take a look to see if the shape could be simplified: often thousands
of points can be removed without affecting the overall representation.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

>
>
> If there's a primary key from the original source, that has some value, do
> leave that.
>
I don't think there is, but I will make sure to leave it if there is.

>
>
>
> Also take a look to see if the shape could be simplified: often thousands
> of points can be removed without affecting the overall representation.
>
Good advice.  I will check.

Mike
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Andreas Goss]

Created/Changed the Wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcamera

I think what we need might be a tag that in general indicates where you 
can get prints

__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Enough is enough

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 10:17, Chris Hill  wrote:

> Mike,
> After our last exchange of messages I thought you were trying to fit in at
> least a bit. Since then I have watched your emails steadily descend into
> trolling and abuse.
>
> Time to either shut up (which I doubt you can) or leave before you're
> thrown out, which I know you're used to.
>
> OSM learned a hard lesson about trolls in the past and we're not as
> tolerant now. Carry on with abuse, bad-mouthing and extreme negativity and
> you will get banned. At first I thought that would be a shame, you needed a
> chance to fit in.  Well you've had that chance and blown it.
>
>
>
What is wrong with you ?

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

T&Cs 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 02:51, Andreas Goss  wrote:

> No tag
>> Tag oneway
>> tag twoway
>>
>> not an'equals' in sight  and difficult to mistake twoway for oneway.
>>
>
> I would say that's much worse both for mappers as well as consumers. Not
> even to mention documentation, because now you have two wiki pages which
> again is always a good source for errors.
>
> As a mapper I now have to check for both tags, there can be
> contradictions, QA Tools can't just check one value etc.
>
> For consumers the same. They now have to check two keys instead of one.
>
> And then this isn't the only case. Every yes/no would then be like that
> which would be a nightmare, because you will 2x the amount of tags, wiki
> pages and everything else that has to be kep up to date. No to mention that
> is simple doesn't work if it's not just 2 pairs like bus=yes/no... are you
> going to use no_bus=yes instead?
> __
> openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
> wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎
>
>
>
OK, next option is

directions=1 (way)
directions=2
directions=unknown.

That way, the key has no  built-in value itself forcing the value to be
read to have any, well, value !

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

T&Cs 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Warin]

On 3/06/2015 11:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:





Am 03.06.2015 um 13:48 schrieb Richard :

Better ideas?


there's highway=road in use for situations where you trace from aerial imagery 
and have no clue about the situation on the ground (name, oneway, maxspeed etc)




Errr road is where you cannot determine the classification.

From satellite imagery I can infer the surface and number of lanes most 
of the time.
 I can usually infer the classification from the start, finish, 
connecting road classifications and some cultural knowledge.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Enough is enough

[Warin]

On 4/06/2015 8:17 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 3 June 2015 at 10:17, Chris Hill > wrote:


Mike,


Deleted.


What is wrong with you ?




That appears to be a personal private message addressed to you Mike.

I deplore broadcasting it on on public forum unless you have permission 
to do so from the author.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

On 4/06/2015 3:37 AM, Andreas Goss wrote:

Created/Changed the Wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcamera

I think what we need might be a tag that in general indicates where 
you can get prints


I think that is the present shop=photo ...
but its wili description is not clear.

Some shops .. do both; sell prints and sell cameras.

I think there are shops that only do prints, and yet others that only 
sell cameras


So .. is there a case for individual shop values?
These could be combined where needed .. shop=photo; camera or separate 
nodes.


---
There is a case for the wiki of shop=photo to be clearly defined!

==
According to tag info there are over 800 values for shop= ... some of 
them are not English, some as single and plural variations.

The vast majority have no documentation.
I think I'll document shop=model .. there are various finer values 
model_railway, model_train, model_railways being 3.


But shop=camera .. and shop=photo ... ummm need your thoughts.

Should there be a shop=camera ...
 if so should it include associated things like flash, tripods, filters etc

If not .. should cameras go into shop=photo?
In any case .. what should shop=photo be about?
 film development?
 photo printing
 framing  ... (there are specialist framing shops .. they do paintings too)

Once people have express their ideas I'll try to come to combine them 
into the best tag/s and put that forward as a proposal for comment. But 
at the moment I've no clear idea ... mainly due to the poor shop=photo 
wiki.







___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Willis]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:46 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:50 AM, johnw  wrote:
>> How many people are going to understand that I need a “wooden home goods” 
>> shop tag? There is an old traditional store that sells all the things for 
>> your house - from yard tools, to buckets, to bathtubs - made out of wood by 
>> an expert craftsman. They are not ornamental goods - you use them.  It is a 
>> Very Japanese store,
> 
> Are you really going to use OSM for looking up those specialty stores and see 
> whether they sell item X ? I rather search the internet. After I read the 
> shop's website and verified they sell X, I take their address and name and 
> use those in e.g. OsmAnd to get me to the place.
> 
> Where would you end up otherwise ? Tag all breads and the days they are 
> available in a bakery ? All softdrinks and their brands available in a 
> supermarket ?
> 
> Of course for more tourist related features (cafes, pubs, hotels, etc, ) it's 
> nice that I can find them directly via OsmAnd POIs without research on the 
> internet.
> 
> So I wonder whether it is not enough to have some rough classification for 
> the shops you are describing with links to their websites so one can do a 
> full text search there to see whether the shop fulfils one needs.
> 

Thanks for proving my point. 

This is a class of store - a previously very common type of store in Japan for 
the past couple hundred years - one that has disappeared with the industrial 
revolution - but can still be found. 

I don't have to explain why an ice cream shop definition is needed, nor mount a 
defense for having a tag for a tobacco shop (whatever the correct OSM tags are) 
because you are familiar with this class of store. 

Why is my wooden home goods store any less deserving of its tag than an ice 
cream shop? At one point in time, there were more of these japanese shops than 
all ice cream shops in the world.

Its because there is not one in Los Angeles or London.  

I know of 3 of them that existed just on my 7km route to work - two have been 
bulldozed recently, one is still open. but there are still many many of them 
throughout Japan still selling goods.  And there will never be one made outside 
of Japan (or least Asia)

What about a fixtures store? 
Toto (the maker of those famous Japanese toilets) has a huge number of chain 
stores that sell just bathroom and kitchen fixtures. They don't sell anything 
other than toilets, tubs, and sinks there. Its not a home store, nor a DIY 
store, nor a plumbing store (no pipes or whatnot) - they just sell fixtures and 
their installation. 

Can i create a "home store" category and have a "fixtures" subcategory?

What happens when I have a wooden goods store (sells all those goods, including 
giant wooden bathtubs) and Also is a toto fixtures dealer?

I want to tag them as a wooden goods shop and a fixtures shop. Its not very 
common of a shop - ive only seen one (like Pogs & Ammo), so how do i tag a 
store which is a combination of both? That is a fundamental problem with shop 
tagging in OSM that was easily solved by google by letting you put as many 
tags/ categories on a shop as the mapper deems it belongs to. 

###

How each culture slices up who-sells-what and who-does-what is similar thanks 
to westernized shops and modern industrial production and marketing - but there 
are still plenty of unique styles of shops that may be plentiful and deserving 
of their own tag is some regions - and having to justify their creation and 
inclusion to a group wholly unfamiliar with their existence means it is an 
uphill battle for localized tagging - which means OSM is just a tourist map for 
westerners - because uniformity in the data is more important than if the 
locals find the map or data useful... No one expects the map to cater to them 
anyways since their mapping conventions, categories, and iconography 
(rendering, data sorting, and labeling) are of secondary importance to the 
ability of people who don't live there to be able to understand it. 

I know this isn't a malicious thing - everyone wants to make a better map - but 
being an english centric project automatically creates these issues. 

Language support =/= cultural support 

Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) Japanese 
mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a big stinky 
pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to Roman 
characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but two 
down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering "fixed" for SE 
asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto.

Javbw

> regards
> 
> m
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lis

Re: [Tagging] Enough is enough

[pmailkeey .]

On 4 June 2015 at 00:09, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 4/06/2015 8:17 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3 June 2015 at 10:17, Chris Hill  wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>   Deleted.
>
>  What is wrong with you ?
>
>
>
> That appears to be a personal private message addressed to you Mike.
>
> I deplore broadcasting it on on public forum unless you have permission to
> do so from the author.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
Anyone being attacked by others has got to have a right to inform of the
attack as otherwise OSM has a state of lawlessness.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

T&Cs 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[pmailkeey .]

On 3 June 2015 at 03:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi,
> I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I have
> mapped.
> There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).
>
> They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters etc etc.
>
> Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!
>
> I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics
>
>
>
>
shop=photographic
shop=optical instruments
Shop=image_recording

film processing ?

I think this is going to be another 'debatable' value as there is unlikely
to be one perfect fit.
-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

T&Cs 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[pmailkeey .]

On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis  wrote:

>
>
> Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required)
> Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a
> big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to
> Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but
> two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering "fixed"
> for SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto.
>
> Javbw
>
>
I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore
'standard' carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on
Japanese OSM for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I
was looking for レストラン then I'd expect to find many.


-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

T&Cs 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

On 4/06/2015 9:59 AM, John Willis wrote:




What about a fixtures store?
Toto (the maker of those famous Japanese toilets) has a huge number of 
chain stores that sell just bathroom and kitchen fixtures. They don't 
sell anything other than toilets, tubs, and sinks there. Its not a 
home store, nor a DIY store, nor a plumbing store (no pipes or 
whatnot) - they just sell fixtures and their installation.


Can i create a "home store" category and have a "fixtures" subcategory?


I recall several city blocks made up of such stores .. in Athens, Greece.




What happens when I have a wooden goods store (sells all those goods, 
including giant wooden bathtubs) and Also is a toto fixtures dealer?


I want to tag them as a wooden goods shop and a fixtures shop. Its not 
very common of a shop - ive only seen one (like Pogs & Ammo), so how 
do i tag a store which is a combination of both? That is a fundamental 
problem with shop tagging in OSM that was easily solved by google by 
letting you put as many tags/ categories on a shop as the mapper deems 
it belongs to.





shop=wooden_goods; bathroom-fixtures ?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Andreas Goss]

The thing is these services are also often available in supermarkets, 
copyshops etc. and you don't want to put shop=photo on those.


And if a shop has both cameras and prints then you can use shop=photo if 
the camera selection isn't that big like just some point&shoot cameras 
or you can use shop=camera with some photo_prints=yes tag.


2 notes or shop=photo;camera is just not that great.

On 6/4/15 01:39 , Warin wrote:

On 4/06/2015 3:37 AM, Andreas Goss wrote:

Created/Changed the Wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcamera

I think what we need might be a tag that in general indicates where
you can get prints


I think that is the present shop=photo ...
but its wili description is not clear.

Some shops .. do both; sell prints and sell cameras.

I think there are shops that only do prints, and yet others that only
sell cameras

So .. is there a case for individual shop values?
These could be combined where needed .. shop=photo; camera or separate
nodes.

---
There is a case for the wiki of shop=photo to be clearly defined!

==
According to tag info there are over 800 values for shop= ... some of
them are not English, some as single and plural variations.
The vast majority have no documentation.
I think I'll document shop=model .. there are various finer values
model_railway, model_train, model_railways being 3.

But shop=camera .. and shop=photo ... ummm need your thoughts.

Should there be a shop=camera ...
  if so should it include associated things like flash, tripods, filters
etc

If not .. should cameras go into shop=photo?
In any case .. what should shop=photo be about?
  film development?
  photo printing
  framing  ... (there are specialist framing shops .. they do paintings
too)

Once people have express their ideas I'll try to come to combine them
into the best tag/s and put that forward as a proposal for comment. But
at the moment I've no clear idea ... mainly due to the poor shop=photo
wiki.






___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



--
__
openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88‎


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[Warin]

On 4/06/2015 10:04 AM, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 3 June 2015 at 03:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Hi,
I've added the tag shop=camera on a node .. reflecting ONE shop I
have mapped.
There are others that I can tag (when I get to them).

They sell cameras, video or still, tripods, memory cards, filters
etc etc.

Any idea for a better tag?  .. just fishing for ideas at this stage!

I've placed it in the wiki shop 'electronics' section .. best fit.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:shop#Electronics





shop=photographic
shop=optical instruments
Shop=image_recording

film processing ?

I think this is going to be another 'debatable' value as there is 
unlikely to be one perfect fit.




Too much detail .. there is a balance!

shop=fork
shop=spoon
shop=table_knife
shop=cleaver
shop=M10_nut
shop=m10_bolt
shop=M10_screw

Where does the balance occur for OSM?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 06/03/2015 05:59 PM, Mike Thompson wrote:
> I am encountering the tags SHAPE_Leng, SHAPE_Area, GIS_ACRES on US
> National Forests. If I am making other edits to the OSM element in
> question, can these be deleted?  Converted to some other tag?

These tags are an indication of a broken and un-discussed import, and
objects carrying these should be deleted on sight.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Willis]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 9:18 AM, pmailkeey .  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 4 June 2015 at 00:59, John Willis  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Its been an uphill battle to get even the most basic (read: required) 
>> Japanese mapping conventions accepted. Traffic light rendering is still a 
>> big stinky pile of garbage. Kanji rendering is still really bad compared to 
>> Roman characters - both are being worked on by people better than me, but 
>> two down-voted proposals to get traffic light labeling/rendering "fixed" for 
>> SE asia shows where the priorities are for OSM/-carto.
>> 
>> Javbw
>> 
> 
> 
> I see no reason why different 'cultures' cannot completely ignore 'standard' 
> carto and tags and just do their own thing. If I was looking on Japanese OSM 
> for a restaurant, I'd expect to not find a single one. If I was looking for 
> レストラン then I'd expect to find many.
> 
> 

Which are all tagged as x=restaurant, not x=レストラン

Example:

We all agree on mcdonalds being fast food, right? Yep, as do Japanese people. 
But so is fried octopus balls (takoyaki). 

The mall near my work has a mcdonalds and a takoyaki stand. Searching for たこやき 
should bring it up. No problem. 

The most popular fast food in Japan? Ramen. My friend owns japanese pubs (an 
izakaya) and ramen shops - people love quick ramen. McDonalds is doing badly 
here now. 

Fast food Iconography? Hamburger. 

Don't confuse searching for an object with how they are sorted/labeled/and 
represented - nor forget about the inflexibility in OSM/-carto to get them 
represented differently. (Take-out bag?) Or support regional renderings 
(buddhist shrines do not use the buddhist wheel in Japan, but thats what they 
get) 

Javbw. 

> -- 
> Mike.
> @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
> via the area's premier website - 
> 
> currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property & 
> pets
> 
> T&Cs
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] RFD tag:shop=camera?

[John Willis]

Picture of my wood goods / bathing goods shop i just took.  The Toto banner can 
be seen on the left, and an old bathtub out front. Wood hand tools hang on the 
wall inside on the left.
 
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/javbw/18254840438/

Javbw


> On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:14 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> This message has no content.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging