Re: [Tagging] Paper streets?

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:51 AM, Anthony  wrote:
> It doesn't feel right to call something a highway=* if it isn't usable
> for travel.  If it is usable for travel, then it should be tagged
> highway=track/path/etc as appropriate.

highway=proposed and highway=construction aren't usable for travel. I
think that's the approach here:

highway=doubtful
doubtful=residential

(replace "doubtful" with whatever word best conveys the sense that a
road was planned but probably will never be built.)

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Paper streets?

[Steve Bennett]

>I was not aware that having OSM map streets was the kiss of death for any 
>further development.

Hi. These are the kinds of sarcastic, unhelpful remarks that make OSM
lists suck. Please don't do it.

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Is highway=service, service=drive_thru a good idea?

[Steve Bennett]

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> It is for this reason that I prefer underscores myself.
>
> So service=drive_through it is?

I think so.

Could we also start recording deprecated synonyms on the wiki? In this
case, service=drive-through and service=drive_thru should noted. They
can then be automatically converted when convenient.

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Brad Neuhauser :
> Aren't admin_level and place getting at slightly different things?
>  admin_level is to mark official political/legal boundaries.  place is to
> mark a...well...place that has a name, and the
> place=city|town|village|hamlet does not necessarily align with the type of
> government (if any) of the place.  From the place page:
> "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a
> city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of
> size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a convention
> to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more
> common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of
> 1000 residents for example.***"  Just like the term "township" that Ant
> linked to, the same word can have different meanings in different contexts.
> Brad


personally I think that the wiki is not very good at this point. The
criteria to decide between town and village and between village and
hamlet is IMHO a functional and often historic and traditional one. Is
there a market place? Is there a church? Is there a townhall? What was
the status in the past? Are there city-walls? Are there other town
specific functions like a university, a hospital? etc. This might not
be valid in all regions, but for Europe it is definitely the case. The
general numbers (1000 /1 / 10) proposed in the wiki are IMHO
definitely too big on the lower end. For Germany we concluded hamlet <
200 and village < 2000 (which might be better values for Europe in
general), but this doesn't mean there can't be villages with 5000
inhabitants as well. Basically the size of the population is only a
rough guideline but cannot substitute further analysis.

While you might argue that we (OSM) are not interested in history in
the first place it is IMHO unneglectible that the historic relevance
had huge impact on the organization of the territory. E.g. the street
grid (as well as railways) is no something constructed in 20 years
from zero (at least in Europe or Asia) but is a structure that was
evolving for hundreds if not thousands of years.

In the US the history of a place might be shorter, but you might still
be able to apply functional criteria IMHO.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Richard Mann]

admin_level=8, as per
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Admin_level#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries

place=suburb if it's a bit of a larger urban area
place=town if it corresponds to a reasonably large standalone urban area
place=village if it corresponds to a single small standalone urban area
place=locality if it's not got a single small standalone area

All of those are subject to the name being meaningful (ie one that at
least some people might use to refer to the area in common speech). If
the name shouldn't go bang in the centre of the area, create a node
where the name should go and put the place tag there instead.

Richard



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Antony Pegg  wrote:
> ok, I got a question
>
> tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to come down to
> two main tags:
>
> admin_level and place
>
> plus
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place
>
>
> I've ran into a problem recently fixing up my area, where either the TIGER
> import, or inexperienced contributors have/are mis-tagging townships as
> being, in some way, more important / more visible than Cities or Towns.
>
> Before I go further, If you aren't sure exactly what a Township is in the
> US, please read this first:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_%28United_States%29
>
> In rural PA (Lancaster) I am specifically dealing with a buttload of these:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_%28United_States%29#Civil_townships
>
> From personal experience, the best I can equate them to is neighbourhoods or
> in-town areas in england.
>
> West Lampeter is to Lancaster as Tarpots is 918 years ago) to South
> Benfleet, or the Sea-front in Southend.
>
> The problem is that currently we dont have a discrete tag for place=township
> and all admin_level= are =8
>
> so, half a question, half a statement of intent, unless someone argues me
> down from the ledge...
>
> I'm going to start using place=suburb for townships as the closest
> comparison I can find
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dsuburb
>
>
> thx
> Ant
>
> ___
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>
>

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Richard Mann :

> place=locality if it's not got a single small standalone area


locality is to be used for uninhabited places according to the wiki.

The is also place=isolated_dwelling for singular settlements (just one
house/maximum 2 households)


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Richard Mann]

Townships are units of govt that are subdivisions of County, typically
square, population and urban form varies (to save you the trouble of
reading the wiki article he suggested you read if you don't know what
they are).

If the township contains a series of tiny places, but people do
genuinely give the whole thing a name, then place=locality is probably
the most appropriate for a first pass (there can be place tags on the
tiny places as well, but that's not what he was asking about). If it
ain't right, someone can change it later.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Richard Mann :
> Townships are units of govt that are subdivisions of County, typically
> square, population and urban form varies (to save you the trouble of
> reading the wiki article he suggested you read if you don't know what
> they are).


Then it is a case for admin boundaries IMHO.

place=locality is according to the wiki " Places that have a
specific name, but do not necessarily have any geographic feature
centre that could be used to attach a name tag to. It does not have
any population. " How would that match, especially "does not have any
population" ?

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:02 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2010/10/20 Brad Neuhauser :
> > Aren't admin_level and place getting at slightly different things?
> >  admin_level is to mark official political/legal boundaries.  place is to
> > mark a...well...place that has a name, and the
> > place=city|town|village|hamlet does not necessarily align with the type
> of
> > government (if any) of the place.  From the place page:
> > "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a
> > city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of
> > size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a
> convention
> > to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more
> > common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of
> > 1000 residents for example.***"  Just like the term "township" that Ant
> > linked to, the same word can have different meanings in different
> contexts.
> > Brad
>
>
> personally I think that the wiki is not very good at this point. The
> criteria to decide between town and village and between village and
> hamlet is IMHO a functional and often historic and traditional one. Is
> there a market place? Is there a church? Is there a townhall? What was
> the status in the past? Are there city-walls? Are there other town
> specific functions like a university, a hospital? etc. This might not
> be valid in all regions, but for Europe it is definitely the case. The
> general numbers (1000 /1 / 10) proposed in the wiki are IMHO
> definitely too big on the lower end. For Germany we concluded hamlet <
> 200 and village < 2000 (which might be better values for Europe in
> general), but this doesn't mean there can't be villages with 5000
> inhabitants as well. Basically the size of the population is only a
> rough guideline but cannot substitute further analysis.
>
> While you might argue that we (OSM) are not interested in history in
> the first place it is IMHO unneglectible that the historic relevance
> had huge impact on the organization of the territory. E.g. the street
> grid (as well as railways) is no something constructed in 20 years
> from zero (at least in Europe or Asia) but is a structure that was
> evolving for hundreds if not thousands of years.
>
> In the US the history of a place might be shorter, but you might still
> be able to apply functional criteria IMHO.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>

Functional (subjective) tagging versus tagging to a set standard (objective)
is one underlying reason why US highway tagging is so inconsistent--some in
the US community want a consistent schema that works in all situations,
others want to allow some fuzziness based on the local situation.

Regarding the wiki page, Martin, it's not just "not very good" on the point
you make--the point is totally missing.  If the things you mentioned are
usually factored into the tagging decision, then that should be added to the
page.

Thanks, Brad


>
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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Antony Pegg]

 M?rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> Then it is a case for admin boundaries IMHO.

I think I agree with this - and also with a comment from talk-us of tag it
as place=township anyway

One of the issues seems to be that the admin_level tag for the US seems very
bare bones:

2 - national
4 - State
6 - Counties
8 - Everything else (everything!!) - and the townships ARE tagged as 8

but they also seem mostly tagged as place=town - which doesn't seem right

Does this mean I need to go on a campaign and write proposal for adding
place=township?
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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Antony Pegg  wrote:
> M?rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>> Then it is a case for admin boundaries IMHO.
>
> I think I agree with this - and also with a comment from talk-us of tag it
> as place=township anyway
>
> One of the issues seems to be that the admin_level tag for the US seems very
> bare bones:
>
> 2 - national
> 4 - State
> 6 - Counties
> 8 - Everything else (everything!!) - and the townships ARE tagged as 8

I don't know about the rest of the country, but for Pennsylvania (and
neighboring New Jersey, which I'm more familiar with), this seems
correct.

(In Pennsylvania), townships, boroughs, and cities are all at the same
administrative level.

Of course, in terms of mapping, they probably shouldn't be treated the
same, which means the renderer, at least in those two states, should
probably ignore admin level > 6.

As far as administrative level, it's actually easier in Pennsylvania
and New Jersey than it is in say Florida, where some places are
governed at level 6 (e.g. unincorporated Hillsborough County), and
others are governed at level 8 (the city of Tampa, which is within
Hillsborough County).  In New Jersey, everywhere is incorporated.  I
believe it is the same in Pennsylvania, based on the maps and my
reading.

But I believe most of the US is more like Florida, in that some places
are incorporated, and some places aren't.  So if you have a place at
administrative level 8, it means you have a city.

> but they also seem mostly tagged as place=town - which doesn't seem right
>
> Does this mean I need to go on a campaign and write proposal for adding
> place=township?

Probably not.  I thought place=* tags were based on population.
That's what the wiki says.  You gotta remember that pretty much every
tag key in OSM has to be treated as though it's written in foreign
language if you're in a backwards place like the United States.

So everything outside of the townships would be mapped from
Pennsylvania designations into OSM ones based on population:

*First and second class cities -> city
**that would be Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Scranton
*Third class cities -> town
*Borough -> village (larger boroughs) or hamlet (smaller boroughs)

Which leaves the question of whether or not to map townships as places
at all.  Looking at the map, townships seem to be what's left over
when you subtract out the cities and boroughs, so that would lead me
to say no.  But if someone more familiar with Pennsylvania can argue
otherwise, s/he'd probably be right.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Brad Neuhauser :

> Functional (subjective) tagging versus tagging to a set standard (objective)
> is one underlying reason why US highway tagging is so inconsistent--


I can't follow you here. Functional classification of inhabited places
(settlements) doesn't have to be subjective, it's the standard in
antropology / spacial planning AFAIK. Nobody (at least that's what I
hope) would be so dull to say place X has  inhabitants and is
therefore a village, place y has 10001 inhabitants and is a town. And
if a family moves to place x it will become a town?

For highway-tagging (in the US): I think it needs some time to develop
a good grid, you will come to this point if you have enough mappers,
long discussions and a bit of patience ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Antony Pegg  writes:

> tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to come down to
> two main tags:
>
> admin_level and place

Before you over-simplify, let me point out a couple things:

1. Not all of the US is incorporated.  In the Northeast, every tiny part
of land is incorporated into a town or township or borough.  But in the
Southeast (and I presume elsewhere as well), there's lots of
unincorporated land, even in the vicinity of large cities.  Look at
Atlanta, which still has lots of unincorporated area.

That's a big variation, and the map needs to be equally competent at
handling both regions.

2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
#33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
area in 800 miles.

There's also a recognition factor... the whole world knows where New
York is and would expect it to be fairly prominent on a map.  Capitol
cities are considered to be "important" even when they're not very
prominent or populous.  Etc.


It seems to me that admin_level handles the first point, except that 4
levels to cover all of the US doesn't give much granularity.  Maybe we
need to think about using the in-between levels to show more detail?

place= seems to be handling the second point, but not very well.  Should
label sizes really be determined purely by population?  By "importance"?
What criteria should there be?  I don't think the current scheme of
city/town/whatever is very good, because it's another instance of
hacking a British scheme onto a country with a very different history
and organization.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] Is highway=service, service=drive_thru a good idea?

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  
> wrote:
>> It is for this reason that I prefer underscores myself.
>>
>> So service=drive_through it is?
>
> I think so.
>
> Could we also start recording deprecated synonyms on the wiki? In this
> case, service=drive-through and service=drive_thru should noted. They
> can then be automatically converted when convenient.

For these we can have wiki redirects and also add a small section near
the bottom of the page akin to a "See also" section, but this time for
deprecated variations.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Andrew S. J. Sawyer]

My thoughts are mixed in below.

*On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:17, Peter Budny  wrote:
*
>
> * Antony Pegg  writes:
>
> > tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to come down
> to* *
> > two main tags:
> >
> > admin_level and place
>
> Before you over-simplify, let me point out a couple things:* *
>
> 1. Not all of the US is incorporated.  In the Northeast, every tiny part*
> *
> of land is incorporated into a town or township or borough.  But in the
> Southeast (and I presume elsewhere as well), there's lots of
> unincorporated land, even in the vicinity of large cities.  Look at
> Atlanta, which still has lots of unincorporated area.
>
> That's a big variation, and the map needs to be equally competent at* *
> handling both regions.*
>

Slight correction, not all land in the Northeast is incorporated. In New
Hampshire there are a handful of communities which are not incorporated. For
example (with hyperlinks to Wikipedia pages):

Atkinson and Gilmanton Academy
Grant|
Bean's
Grant  | Bean's
Purchase  |
Cambridge  | Chandler's
Purchase |
Crawford's
Purchase |
Cutt's
Grant  | Dix's
Grant  |
Dixville|
Erving's
Location 
| Green's
Grant  | Hadley's
Purchase 
| Hale's
Location  |
Kilkenny  |
Livermore| Low
and Burbank's 
Grant|
Martin's
Location  |
Millsfield  |
Odell| Pinkham's
Grant 
| Sargent's
Purchase |
Second
College Grant|
Success  | Thompson and
Meserve's 
Purchase|
Wentworth's
Location

> *2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
> large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
> metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
> area in 800 miles.
>
> There's also a recognition factor... the whole world knows where New* *
> York is and would expect it to be fairly prominent on a map.  Capitol
> cities are considered to be "important" even when they're not very
> prominent or populous.  Etc.
>
>
> It seems to me that admin_level handles the first point, except that 4* *
> levels to cover all of the US doesn't give much granularity.  Maybe we
> need to think about using the in-between levels to show more detail?
>
> place= seems to be handling the second point, but not very well.  Should*
> *
> label sizes really be determined purely by population?  By "importance"?
> What criteria should there be?  I don't think the current scheme of
> city/town/whatever is very good, because it's another instance of
> hacking a British scheme onto a country with a very different history
> and organization.
> --
> Peter Budny  \
> Georgia Tech  \
> CS PhD student \*
>

I agree that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that will work with
displaying/tagging named communities on the map. I think that a combination
of the size of the given area, the "admin_level" of the given area (country,
state, county, etc), population and recognizability (capital cities, etc).
The latter being the most difficult to quantify in a manner in which many
people would agree on (less capital cities).

However, I agree that a ratio of area, "admin_level" and population could
take care of most cases. I think something like the "layers" tag could be
used to promote those places to show up on higher zooms that are otherwise
downgraded by surrounding places. I'm not qui

Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Peter Budny :
> 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
> large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
> metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
> area in 800 miles.


good you mention this, there are similar cases in Europe. E.g.
Stuttgart counts 601.646 inhabitants, but the metropolitan area has
5.3 Million ranking 12th in Europe before Munich (5.2 Million
met.area, 1.33 million inhabitants city)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolregion#Die_gr.C3.B6.C3.9Ften_Metropolregionen_Europas

We already have had similar discussions on the German list, where the
result was to add as much detail as you can to help the rendering
application choose the one they are interested in.

The resulting matrix is here (in German, sorry):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Anzeige_von_St%C3%A4dten#Deutschland

The legend:

HS = Hauptstadt --- capital
MR = Metropolregion --- metropolitan region
F = Flughafen --- airport
H = Überseehafen --- harbour with overseas traffic
B = Bahnknotenpunkt --- important railway intersection
OZ = Oberzentrum --- main regional centre (?)
MZ = Mittelzentrum  --- medium regional centre (?)
Uni = University, one x per 10 000 students

another approach from the same page is titled "dominance" where
dominance expresses the distance to the next "higher" (in terms of
importance / population) place. The higher (in terms of distance) the
more dominant.

This serves to determine which names to show and which to omit. (in
scarse areas you would want to see also smaller places, but in
concentrated areas you will have to omit also big cities in favour of
even bigger (or more important according to a scheme like the above
described one) ones.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

"Andrew S. J. Sawyer"  writes:

> My thoughts are mixed in below.
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:17, Peter Budny  wrote:
>
> Antony Pegg  writes:
>
> > tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to
> > come down to two main tags:
> >
> > admin_level and place
>
> Before you over-simplify, let me point out a couple things:
>
> 1. Not all of the US is incorporated.  In the Northeast, every tiny part
> of land is incorporated into a town or township or borough.  But in the
> Southeast (and I presume elsewhere as well), there's lots of
> unincorporated land, even in the vicinity of large cities.  Look at
> Atlanta, which still has lots of unincorporated area.
>
> That's a big variation, and the map needs to be equally competent at
> handling both regions.
>
> Slight correction, not all land in the Northeast is incorporated. In New
> Hampshire there are a handful of communities which are not
> incorporated.

I was exaggerating to illustrate the differences, but point taken.
>
> 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
> large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
> metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
> area in 800 miles.
>
> There's also a recognition factor... the whole world knows where New
> York is and would expect it to be fairly prominent on a map.  Capitol
> cities are considered to be "important" even when they're not very
> prominent or populous.  Etc.
>
> It seems to me that admin_level handles the first point, except that 4
> levels to cover all of the US doesn't give much granularity.  Maybe we
> need to think about using the in-between levels to show more detail?
>
> place= seems to be handling the second point, but not very well.  Should
> label sizes really be determined purely by population?  By "importance"?
> What criteria should there be?  I don't think the current scheme of
> city/town/whatever is very good, because it's another instance of
> hacking a British scheme onto a country with a very different history
> and organization.
>
> I agree that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that will work
> with displaying/tagging named communities on the map. I think that a
> combination of the size of the given area, the "admin_level" of the
> given area (country, state, county, etc), population and
> recognizability (capital cities, etc). The latter being the most
> difficult to quantify in a manner in which many people would agree on
> (less capital cities).

I forgot to mention control cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_city).
These are cities that are designated for use on highway signs to
indicate which direction you're heading.  These should definitely appear
on the map, even if they're relatively small cities (e.g. Valdosta,
Georgia).

> However, I agree that a ratio of area, "admin_level" and population
> could take care of most cases.

This gets me wondering if maybe there's some way to do it more
automatically.  For instance, it should be easy to find data sources
for population, area, and lists of "global cities"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city) and control cities.  Maybe
there should be a process just before the renderer that takes in that
information and decides how to label cities automatically.  That keeps
the OSM database down to the basics.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:06 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/10/20 Peter Budny :
> > 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> > the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
> > large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> > #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
> > metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
> > area in 800 miles.
>
>
> good you mention this, there are similar cases in Europe. E.g.
> Stuttgart counts 601.646 inhabitants, but the metropolitan area has
> 5.3 Million ranking 12th in Europe before Munich (5.2 Million
> met.area, 1.33 million inhabitants city)
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolregion#Die_gr.C3.B6.C3.9Ften_Metropolregionen_Europas
>
> We already have had similar discussions on the German list, where the
> result was to add as much detail as you can to help the rendering
> application choose the one they are interested in.
>
> The resulting matrix is here (in German, sorry):
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Anzeige_von_St%C3%A4dten#Deutschland
>
> The legend:
>
> HS = Hauptstadt --- capital
> MR = Metropolregion --- metropolitan region
> F = Flughafen --- airport
> H = Überseehafen --- harbour with overseas traffic
> B = Bahnknotenpunkt --- important railway intersection
> OZ = Oberzentrum --- main regional centre (?)
> MZ = Mittelzentrum  --- medium regional centre (?)
> Uni = University, one x per 10 000 students
>
> another approach from the same page is titled "dominance" where
> dominance expresses the distance to the next "higher" (in terms of
> importance / population) place. The higher (in terms of distance) the
> more dominant.
>
> This serves to determine which names to show and which to omit. (in
> scarse areas you would want to see also smaller places, but in
> concentrated areas you will have to omit also big cities in favour of
> even bigger (or more important according to a scheme like the above
> described one) ones.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>

Very interesting, Martin, thanks for sharing.  Two things I'm unclear on is
1) whether this matrix influences what "place" level the city gets (or maybe
these are all large enough cities, so this point doesn't matter), and 2)
what is the mechanism to get this info to the label renderer, because I
don't see anything on the "place" node.

Brad
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Peter Budny  wrote:

> "Andrew S. J. Sawyer"  writes:
>
> > My thoughts are mixed in below.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:17, Peter Budny  wrote:
> >
> > Antony Pegg  writes:
> >
> > > tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to
> > > come down to two main tags:
> > >
> > > admin_level and place
> >
> > Before you over-simplify, let me point out a couple things:
> >
> > 1. Not all of the US is incorporated.  In the Northeast, every tiny
> part
> > of land is incorporated into a town or township or borough.  But in
> the
> > Southeast (and I presume elsewhere as well), there's lots of
> > unincorporated land, even in the vicinity of large cities.  Look at
> > Atlanta, which still has lots of unincorporated area.
> >
> > That's a big variation, and the map needs to be equally competent at
> > handling both regions.
> >
> > Slight correction, not all land in the Northeast is incorporated. In New
> > Hampshire there are a handful of communities which are not
> > incorporated.
>
> I was exaggerating to illustrate the differences, but point taken.
> >
> > 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> > the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly
> a
> > large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> > #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the
> Atlanta
> > metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest
> metro
> > area in 800 miles.
> >
> > There's also a recognition factor... the whole world knows where New
> > York is and would expect it to be fairly prominent on a map.  Capitol
> > cities are considered to be "important" even when they're not very
> > prominent or populous.  Etc.
> >
> > It seems to me that admin_level handles the first point, except that
> 4
> > levels to cover all of the US doesn't give much granularity.  Maybe
> we
> > need to think about using the in-between levels to show more detail?
> >
> > place= seems to be handling the second point, but not very well.
>  Should
> > label sizes really be determined purely by population?  By
> "importance"?
> > What criteria should there be?  I don't think the current scheme of
> > city/town/whatever is very good, because it's another instance of
> > hacking a British scheme onto a country with a very different history
> > and organization.
> >
> > I agree that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that will work
> > with displaying/tagging named communities on the map. I think that a
> > combination of the size of the given area, the "admin_level" of the
> > given area (country, state, county, etc), population and
> > recognizability (capital cities, etc). The latter being the most
> > difficult to quantify in a manner in which many people would agree on
> > (less capital cities).
>
> I forgot to mention control cities (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_city).
> These are cities that are designated for use on highway signs to
> indicate which direction you're heading.  These should definitely appear
> on the map, even if they're relatively small cities (e.g. Valdosta,
> Georgia).
>
> > However, I agree that a ratio of area, "admin_level" and population
> > could take care of most cases.
>
> This gets me wondering if maybe there's some way to do it more
> automatically.  For instance, it should be easy to find data sources
> for population, area, and lists of "global cities"
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city) and control cities.  Maybe
> there should be a process just before the renderer that takes in that
> information and decides how to label cities automatically.  That keeps
> the OSM database down to the basics.
> --
> Peter Budny  \
> Georgia Tech  \
> CS PhD student \
>
>
>
If you haven't seen it, the 41Latitude blog had an earlier post about
getting a good density of US city names at different zoom levels--it was in
reference to Bing maps, but the same ideas apply:
http://www.41latitude.com/post/931787074/improving-bing-maps-3

In his analysis, using the Census' Urban Clusters and Micropolitan
Statistical Areas looked useful.  Worth a read, if you're still following
this thread.  :)
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Brad Neuhauser  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:06 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> 2010/10/20 Peter Budny :
> > 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on
> > the map should be) is a tricky thing to do.  Population is certainly a
> > large factor, but how do you define this?  The City of Atlanta is the
> > #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the Atlanta
> > metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest metro
> > area in 800 miles.
>
> good you mention this, there are similar cases in Europe. E.g.
> Stuttgart counts 601.646 inhabitants, but the metropolitan area has
> 5.3 Million ranking 12th in Europe before Munich (5.2 Million
> met.area, 1.33 million inhabitants city)
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolregion#
> Die_gr.C3.B6.C3.9Ften_Metropolregionen_Europas
>
> We already have had similar discussions on the German list, where the
> result was to add as much detail as you can to help the rendering
> application choose the one they are interested in.
>
> The resulting matrix is here (in German, sorry):
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Anzeige_von_St%C3%A4dten#Deutschland
>
> The legend:
>
> HS = Hauptstadt --- capital
> MR = Metropolregion --- metropolitan region
> F = Flughafen --- airport
> H = Überseehafen --- harbour with overseas traffic
> B = Bahnknotenpunkt --- important railway intersection
> OZ = Oberzentrum --- main regional centre (?)
> MZ = Mittelzentrum  --- medium regional centre (?)
> Uni = University, one x per 10 000 students
>
> another approach from the same page is titled "dominance" where
> dominance expresses the distance to the next "higher" (in terms of
> importance / population) place. The higher (in terms of distance) the
> more dominant.
>
> This serves to determine which names to show and which to omit. (in
> scarse areas you would want to see also smaller places, but in
> concentrated areas you will have to omit also big cities in favour of
> even bigger (or more important according to a scheme like the above
> described one) ones.

That dominance method seems pretty cool, and similar to what I was
thinking (although probably a little better thought-out).  Compute a
"score" that represents how important a place is, based on a combination
of lots of factors, and start labeling from the top down as space
permits.

> Very interesting, Martin, thanks for sharing.  Two things I'm unclear
> on is

> 1) whether this matrix influences what "place" level the city
> gets (or maybe these are all large enough cities, so this point
> doesn't matter)

I think that if this dominance scheme (or something like it) were used,
place= would become irrelevant except to mark the actual legal status of
something besides what admin_level= tells us.  That is, in the US where
cities, towns, and townships are all admin_level=8, place= could tell us
which is which, but otherwise would have no bearing on the labeling.

> and 2) what is the mechanism to get this info to the
> label renderer, because I don't see anything on the "place" node.

I suppose we could just tag all place markers with a
city_dominance_score= tag... or we could just add a step in the
rendering pipeline to calculate it automatically from various datasets
and some rules.

That would make it much easier to generate varying maps based on what
the user considers "important", e.g. driving directions vs sightseeing
vs geo-political maps.  With a single static tag, there isn't as much
flexibility.

However, I'm not sure whether it's worth making the rendering process
more complicated just to add that.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Brad Neuhauser
 wrote:
> From the place page:
> "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a
> city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of
> size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a convention
> to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more
> common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of
> 1000 residents for example.***"

I looked for and couldn't find anything stating that this was the US convention.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Brad Neuhauser
>  wrote:
> > From the place page:
> > "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a
> > city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of
> > size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a
> convention
> > to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more
> > common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of
> > 1000 residents for example.***"
>
> I looked for and couldn't find anything stating that this was the US
> convention.
>
>
>  ...which is why some states are stuffed full of place labels and others
are extremely sparse.  (if you haven't, see
http://www.41latitude.com/post/1349685626/openstreetmap-critique-2)  The US
community seems to need *some* convention.
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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[John F. Eldredge]

Well, additional reasons for the density of place names in some regions, and 
the sparcity in other regions, are: (1) not all of the US uses the same 
hierarchy of administrative units; (2) some parts of the US are much more 
densely occupied than others; and (3) the administrative units in the western 
US tend to be much larger than in the eastern US.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:brad.neuhau...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Oct 20 11:44:30 America/Chicago 2010



-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 11:35 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Brad Neuhauser
  wrote:

 From the place page:
"In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a
city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of
size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a convention
to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more
common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of
1000 residents for example.***"


I looked for and couldn't find anything stating that this was the US convention.


It’s an OSM convention.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place

Is there some reason it would need to be repeated over and over for 
every country?


I recognize the idea of American exceptionalism, but come on!

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 11:53 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

Well, additional reasons for the density of place names in some
regions, and the sparcity in other regions, are: (1) not all of the
US uses the same hierarchy of administrative units; (2) some parts of
the US are much more densely occupied than others; and (3) the
administrative units in the western US tend to be much larger than in
the eastern US.


(4) some people incorrectly use the place=* tag to reflect the 
government of a place rather than the population because they didn’t RTFM.


(5) Some of the OSM data is incorrect.

(6) OSM’s displayed label sizes and the level at which they’re shown are 
just stupidly high. (i.e. you have to zoom in ridiculously far before 
you can see anything.)



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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Ralf Kleineisel]

On 10/20/2010 06:34 PM, Peter Budny wrote:

> I suppose we could just tag all place markers with a
> city_dominance_score= tag... or we could just add a step in the
> rendering pipeline to calculate it automatically from various datasets
> and some rules.

I think we should have something in the OSM data. If a special renderer
wants to include additonal input that's ok, but if someone wants to
create a map e.g. with mkgmap he can use only OSM input.

This dominance thing is a good idea.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 12:16 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:

On 10/20/2010 11:53 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

Well, additional reasons for the density of place names in some
regions, and the sparsity in other regions, are: (1) not all of the
US uses the same hierarchy of administrative units; (2) some parts of
the US are much more densely occupied than others; and (3) the
administrative units in the western US tend to be much larger than in
the eastern US.


(4) some people incorrectly use the place=* tag to reflect the
government of a place rather than the population because they didn’t RTFM.

(5) Some of the OSM data is incorrect.

(6) OSM’s displayed label sizes and the level at which they’re shown are
just stupidly high. (i.e. you have to zoom in ridiculously far before
you can see anything.)


(7) Neither Mapnik nor Osmarender can handle labeling cities which are 
stored as multipolygons.  They only know how to deal with nodes.



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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:06 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> another approach from the same page is titled "dominance" where
> dominance expresses the distance to the next "higher" (in terms of
> importance / population) place. The higher (in terms of distance) the
> more dominant.
>
> This serves to determine which names to show and which to omit. (in
> scarse areas you would want to see also smaller places, but in
> concentrated areas you will have to omit also big cities in favour of
> even bigger (or more important according to a scheme like the above
> described one) ones.

This sounds very much like the concept of topographic prominence
 wherein subpeaks
of high mountains aren't that important compared to the main peak
despite having a high absolute elevation.

On the other hand, how will this dominance play out in twin cities
such as Minneapolis-St. Paul? I find it likely that a normal renderer
will pick out one of these cities, place the label and ignore the
other because the space is already occupied, when what is expected is
that these two cities are both labeled.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Richard Weait]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:

[ ... ]

> I forgot to mention control cities 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_city).
> These are cities that are designated for use on highway signs to
> indicate which direction you're heading.  These should definitely appear
> on the map, even if they're relatively small cities (e.g. Valdosta,
> Georgia).

Control cities for highway destination signs are only important on
maps for which control cities on highway
destination signs are important.  Tagging Valdosta as control_city=yes
might make sense, but tagging it as prominent=yes does not.  Just as
tagging Athens, GA as 80s_band_origin_city=yes might make sense, but
tagging it as prominent=yes does not.  Even if you are making a Cities
of the 80s Bands Map.

So don't promote Valdosta based on one aspect of the nature of
Valdosta.  Tell OSM about the nature of Valdosta then render it based
on the aspects that are important for your audience.  Not everybody
cares about my band map.  Or your highway control cities.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> (4) some people correctly use the place=* tag to reflect the government of
> a place rather than the population because they put the population in the 
> population=* tag.
Fixed for you.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Peter Budny :
>> 1) whether this matrix influences what "place" level the city
>> gets (or maybe these are all large enough cities, so this point
>> doesn't matter)
>
> I think that if this dominance scheme (or something like it) were used,
> place= would become irrelevant except to mark the actual legal status of
> something besides what admin_level= tells us.  That is, in the US where
> cities, towns, and townships are all admin_level=8, place= could tell us
> which is which, but otherwise would have no bearing on the labeling.


this would depend on the desired rendering and the abilities of who
does the rendering.

>> and 2) what is the mechanism to get this info to the
>> label renderer, because I don't see anything on the "place" node.
>
> I suppose we could just tag all place markers with a
> city_dominance_score= tag... or we could just add a step in the
> rendering pipeline to calculate it automatically from various datasets
> and some rules.


I could imagine to solve this entirely with tags
place:students_count=45000
regional_centre=main
place:airports=4
place:harbours=1
capital=national/federal/etc.
etc.

and let the renderer calculate an "importance index" out of this. You
could also use relations to pull the student numbers and stuff from
the university objects, to get the number of airports etc. (attach
them with role=airport, ... to the place-relation). This would enable
the one who writes the render rules to decide which information he
wants to use (and which is the weight he gives to it).

I'd prefer granular information over a precalculated "city_dominance_score"

> That would make it much easier to generate varying maps based on what
> the user considers "important", e.g. driving directions vs sightseeing
> vs geo-political maps.


+1


> However, I'm not sure whether it's worth making the rendering process
> more complicated just to add that.


IMHO it is. I think it is crucial for the quality of the rendering
which places are shown when (and which have to be omitted).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 12:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:

(4) some people correctly use the place=* tag to reflect the government of
a place rather than the population because they put the population in the 
population=* tag.

Fixed for you.


Sorry, but no.  Please RTFM as I suggested [1].

The definitions are well-established.  Deal with it.  If you want to 
change them, go ahead and try but I’m sure there’ll be a lot of pushback 
from the community.


If you want to record the government of a place, I recommend something 
like municipality:government or place:government_type.


Or just tag incorrectly and don’t be surprised when the map looks like 
crap and reflects poorly on the project as a whole.


—Alex Mauer “hawke”

1. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place




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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :

> Is there some reason it would need to be repeated over and over for every
> country?
>
> I recognize the idea of American exceptionalism, but come on!


actually this never worked well, and in Germany and Italy people are
not following these definitions strictly (but often they happen to be
inside the range).

It is clear that there can't be the same numbers (if numbers is the
approach to go anyway) in the whole world, as Asian cities happen to
be far bigger then European ones, and defining the limit by 10
can't work there, it's obvious.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

Please note that the US TIGER imported city boundaries do use place=*
for the actual type of place it is. Thus the claim that there's a
population-based standard in the US is false.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 12:57 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
>>>
>>> (4) some people correctly use the place=* tag to reflect the government
>>> of
>>> a place rather than the population because they put the population in the
>>> population=* tag.
>>
>> Fixed for you.
>
> Sorry, but no.  Please RTFM as I suggested [1].

I did and saw no guidelines for the US. I looked at existing tagging
and there was no standard (population-based for nodes but type of
government-based for areas).

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 01:06 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer:


Is there some reason it would need to be repeated over and over for every
country?

I recognize the idea of American exceptionalism, but come on!



actually this never worked well, and in Germany and Italy people are
not following these definitions strictly (but often they happen to be
inside the range).

It is clear that there can't be the same numbers (if numbers is the
approach to go anyway) in the whole world, as Asian cities happen to
be far bigger then European ones, and defining the limit by 10
can't work there, it's obvious.


IMO that just means that rendering needs to be based purely and directly 
on population numbers, or we need some higher numbers (1 000 000 = 
metropolis[1]  10 000 000 = megacity[2]? ) It might be useful to use a 
relation to group separate legal-cities with their core city into a 
metropolis, but that might be overcomplicating things.)


It doesn’t mean that the place=* values should be hijacked for some 
other purpose.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megacity


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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :
> The definitions are well-established.


but they are not reflected in the (international/main part of) the
wiki for key=place.

I don't know if the British do tag strictly according to the place
description, but I know that Italians and Germans don't. In Europe a
town can be quite small, but will still be a town and a village can
nowadays be quite big and still remain a village.

In the US I am not sure what are your criteria, what about density, I
am also not sure how to tag downtowns (the space where your cities
were until they were torn down in the 60ies and 70ies due to fear of
riots (scnr, sorry, that's maybe not true for all of them) etc.


>  Deal with it.  If you want to change
> them, go ahead and try but I’m sure there’ll be a lot of pushback from the
> community.


I doubt it in this case, as fixed population numbers can't be the
solution to this problem which is highly dependent on density and
spacial distribution/structure.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 01:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

I did and saw no guidelines for the US. I looked at existing tagging
and there was no standard (population-based for nodes but type of
government-based for areas).


You saw guidelines for OSM, and apparently took it upon yourself to 
ignore them because you’re interested in the US.


Just because the TIGER city boundary import screwed up on the place=* 
tags doesn’t mean they’ve magically been redefined.


—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] shop=kiosk

[Mailerdeamon1]

I agree,

also here in germany its not defined what a kiosk offers.

Mostly it sells stuff like lottery-stuff, small tourism-stuff, papers,
food and drinks, sweets, ice-cream and so on.

But generall not all kiosks are selling food and not all of them
ice-cream and even not all of them are selling lottery-stuff.

So it should be defined what the shop sells...


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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 01:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>
>> I did and saw no guidelines for the US. I looked at existing tagging
>> and there was no standard (population-based for nodes but type of
>> government-based for areas).
>
> You saw guidelines for OSM, and apparently took it upon yourself to ignore
> them because you’re interested in the US.

No, I saw guidelines for "most OSM communities of most Western
countries" and followed the directions on the wiki, which are to
"check the country pages on this wiki". I did and saw no US standards.
So I checked existing nodes and ways, and standards differed.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 01:24 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer:

The definitions are well-established.


but they are not reflected in the (international/main part of) the
wiki for key=place.


Oh? Every language version of 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place says approximately the same 
thing.


The numbers differ slightly, but they’re all based upon population.

Germany lowers the village max size to 2000 and hamlet to 200.
France uses the normal definitions, but lowers hamlet to 100.
Italy uses the normal definitions for city and town, but their own for 
village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling.

Russia uses the normal definitions.
I can’t read the Ukrainian one at all, but it looks like they use the 
normal definition for city, and their own for everything else.
No clue on the Chinese one, but I’d guess that at least city is the 
same, based on 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#China_.28People.27s_Republic_of_China.29



I don't know if the British do tag strictly according to the place
description, but I know that Italians and Germans don't. In Europe a
town can be quite small, but will still be a town and a village can
nowadays be quite big and still remain a village.


Sure, but place=* is not the place to record the type of government.


In the US I am not sure what are your criteria, what about density, I
am also not sure how to tag downtowns (the space where your cities
were until they were torn down in the 60ies and 70ies due to fear of
riots (scnr, sorry, that's maybe not true for all of them) etc.


Why would the downtown portion of a city be tagged separately from the 
rest of the city?  Maybe a boundary=administrative and admin_level=10. 
Otherwise I can’t see a need.


—Alex Mauer “hawke”.


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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :
> IMO that just means that rendering needs to be based purely and directly on
> population numbers, or we need some higher numbers (1 000 000 =
> metropolis[1]  10 000 000 = megacity[2]? ) It might be useful to use a
> relation to group separate legal-cities with their core city into a
> metropolis, but that might be overcomplicating things.)


that's an obvious and simple approach, but won't satisfy on the long
run to get well labelled maps and it won't help if you want to put
emphasis according to something different then population.

I give you an example of such an edge case where simple algorithms
won't help: Tübingen, a small town (87.788 inh.) in the south west of
Germany:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.5194&lon=9.0602&zoom=14&layers=M
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:De_Merian_Sueviae_242.jpg&filetimestamp=20060905162004

it has an important university since 1477 (including big university
hospitals), a castle and is "capital" of a "government district"
(Regierungsbezirk = one level below "land"). Therefore it was usually
depicted on old paper maps before Reutlingen, which is only 10 km away
and has 112.132 inhabitants but no university (it has several colleges
though, one dating back to 1855) and no castle (because it was an
independent town (Freie Reichsstadt)).
Reutlingen
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.4898&lon=9.2214&zoom=13&layers=M
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Re%C3%BCtlingen.jpg&filetimestamp=20080701051448


I guess that Tübingen is more known to the average German then
Reutlingen, but that's just a guess. As written before, traditionally
cartographers gave more importance to Tübingen, while in current
automated internet cartography Tübingen looses almost always against
Reutlingen. Maybe this is a reflection of a changed interpretation of
importance but I fear it is simply a loss in quality...

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :
> On 10/20/2010 01:24 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> The definitions are well-established.
>>
>> but they are not reflected in the (international/main part of) the
>> wiki for key=place.
>
> Oh? Every language version of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place
> says approximately the same thing.


no, the Italian version (which is in continuous change btw.) defines
no numbers for hamlet and village, and I know that towns are also not
tagged according to the standard described: if a town is officially a
"città" (has town rights) then it is tagged town even if it is
smaller.

This is a list of the smalles towns in Germany (couldn't find it for
Italy but is probably similar):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_kleinsten_St%C3%A4dte_in_Deutschland_nach_Einwohnerzahl#Kleinste_St.C3.A4dte_nach_Einwohnerzahl

the Top100 ranges from 297 to 2347 Inhabitants.



> The numbers differ slightly, but they’re all based upon population.


no, the Italian definitions combine administrative status and
inhabitants (I was against this but was overruled) and the German list
defines only city (above 100 000 which is the official definition in
Germany) and isolated_dwelling (2 and less households) by population.


> Germany lowers the village max size to 2000 and hamlet to 200.

no, not only. These are rough approximations to give an indication,
but there are the parenthesis around the numbers because the text
states something else.


> Sure, but place=* is not the place to record the type of government.

I agree


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Richard Weait  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> I forgot to mention control cities 
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_city).
>> These are cities that are designated for use on highway signs to
>> indicate which direction you're heading.  These should definitely appear
>> on the map, even if they're relatively small cities (e.g. Valdosta,
>> Georgia).
>
> Control cities for highway destination signs are only important on
> maps for which control cities on highway
> destination signs are important.  Tagging Valdosta as control_city=yes
> might make sense, but tagging it as prominent=yes does not.  Just as
> tagging Athens, GA as 80s_band_origin_city=yes might make sense, but
> tagging it as prominent=yes does not.  Even if you are making a Cities
> of the 80s Bands Map.
>
> So don't promote Valdosta based on one aspect of the nature of
> Valdosta.  Tell OSM about the nature of Valdosta then render it based
> on the aspects that are important for your audience.  Not everybody
> cares about my band map.  Or your highway control cities.

Totally fair.  I should have written "being a control city should be
included as one criterion (of many) to determine whether to label a city
and how big its label should be."  I would definitely support
control_city=yes (or maybe control_city={1-5}, for a bit more
granularity).
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
> map.

I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
levels.

And, of course, it all depends on the map.  In certain maps of the
county (like 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Mifflin_County_Pennsylvania_With_Municipal_and_Township_Labels.png),
townships may very well play a prominent role.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 01:43 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I guess that Tübingen is more known to the average German then
Reutlingen, but that's just a guess. As written before, traditionally
cartographers gave more importance to Tübingen, while in current
automated internet cartography Tübingen looses almost always against
Reutlingen. Maybe this is a reflection of a changed interpretation of
importance but I fear it is simply a loss in quality...


Probably a bit of both.

Some more complicated set of heuristics for scoring the prominence of a 
place would definitely be useful here (and everywhere).


It all depends upon what one wants to emphasise on a map.

One possible course of action would be to update the renderers to use 
population (or a more complicated system) and then deprecate the place=* 
tag for municipalities.  (place=island and place=islet obviously aren’t 
relevant to this discussion).


Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a 
better replacement for place=*?


—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a better
> replacement for place=*?

place=incorporated?

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Alex Mauer  writes:

> On 10/20/2010 01:43 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> I guess that Tübingen is more known to the average German then
>> Reutlingen, but that's just a guess. As written before, traditionally
>> cartographers gave more importance to Tübingen, while in current
>> automated internet cartography Tübingen looses almost always against
>> Reutlingen. Maybe this is a reflection of a changed interpretation of
>> importance but I fear it is simply a loss in quality...
>
> Probably a bit of both.
>
> Some more complicated set of heuristics for scoring the prominence of
> a place would definitely be useful here (and everywhere).
>
> It all depends upon what one wants to emphasise on a map.
>
> One possible course of action would be to update the renderers to use
> population (or a more complicated system) and then deprecate the
> place=* tag for municipalities.  (place=island and place=islet
> obviously aren’t relevant to this discussion).
>
> Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a
> better replacement for place=*?

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  This discussion seems to have
highlighted the inadequacy of place=* for deciding label size and
prominence, since there are so many factors that go in to those
decisions, and the factors change depending on the particular kind of
map you're trying to create.

As complicated as it sounds, I think Martin may be on the right track: a
relation (or node) containing statistics (population, area, number of
universities, number of university students, number of airports, number
of harbors, whether it's a national/state capitol, whether it's a
highway control city, whether it's a "global" city, etc.) which
renderers can plug in to a formula that will give them a score to
determine how it wants to render each label.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[John F. Eldredge]

I am not aware of any location in the USA (or anywhere else in the world, for 
that matter) where a downtown was torn down for fear of riots.  There are a few 
cities where large numbers of buildings have been abandoned by their former 
owners because of the collapse of the local economy, after the primary employer 
went out of business, but that is not the same thing.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Oct 20 13:24:52 America/Chicago 2010


2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :
> The definitions are well-established.


but they are not reflected in the (international/main part of) the
wiki for key=place.

I don't know if the British do tag strictly according to the place
description, but I know that Italians and Germans don't. In Europe a
town can be quite small, but will still be a town and a village can
nowadays be quite big and still remain a village.

In the US I am not sure what are your criteria, what about density, I
am also not sure how to tag downtowns (the space where your cities
were until they were torn down in the 60ies and 70ies due to fear of
riots (scnr, sorry, that's maybe not true for all of them) etc.


>  Deal with it.  If you want to change
> them, go ahead and try but I’m sure there’ll be a lot of pushback from the
> community.


I doubt it in this case, as fixed population numbers can't be the
solution to this problem which is highly dependent on density and
spacial distribution/structure.

cheers,
Martin

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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Alex Mauer  writes:

> On 10/20/2010 12:16 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>
> (7) Neither Mapnik nor Osmarender can handle labeling cities which are
> stored as multipolygons.  They only know how to deal with nodes.

Multipolygon handling is pretty bad in general, not just for city
labels.  In particular, support for multipolygons with more than one
outer way is not up to par.  (Try creating several disconnected
buildings, marking them as outer polygons and tagging the whole thing as
a building or shop, and watch them disappear from the rendering
entirely!)

You could really classify this as a subcase of "relations are not
handled very well/thoroughly".
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Anthony  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
>> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
>> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
>> map.
>
> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
> levels.

It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
admin_level=7 in the US.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
Georgia Tech  \
CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
> Alex Mauer  writes:
>
>> On 10/20/2010 12:16 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>>
>> (7) Neither Mapnik nor Osmarender can handle labeling cities which are
>> stored as multipolygons.  They only know how to deal with nodes.
>
> Multipolygon handling is pretty bad in general, not just for city
> labels.  In particular, support for multipolygons with more than one
> outer way is not up to par.  (Try creating several disconnected
> buildings, marking them as outer polygons and tagging the whole thing as
> a building or shop, and watch them disappear from the rendering
> entirely!)
>
> You could really classify this as a subcase of "relations are not
> handled very well/thoroughly".

Mapnik actually seems pretty good with multipolygons - all the issues
I've seen are with areas in general, whether multipolygons or simple
closed ways. There are some layering issues
(http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3295) and of course boundaries
aren't handled well (http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3069
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3226).

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
> Anthony  writes:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
>>> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
>>> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
>>> map.
>>
>> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
>> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
>> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
>> levels.
>
> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
> admin_level=7 in the US.

What's wrong with admin_level=8?

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
> Anthony  writes:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
>>> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
>>> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
>>> map.
>>
>> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
>> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
>> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
>> levels.
>
> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
> admin_level=7 in the US.

No, at least in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, townships are the same
level of government as cities and towns. In a more urban county you
can see this more clearly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Essex_County,_New_Jersey_Municipalities.png
Some are silly reorganizations to take advantage of funding rules
("City of Orange Township") but some are simply the urban remnants of
once-larger townships.

I've used admin_level=7 for Disney's Reedy Creek Improvement District,
which encompasses two cities and some other land.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 02:49 PM, Peter Budny wrote:

Anthony  writes:


I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
levels.


It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
admin_level=7 in the US.


It’s not missing, admin_level intentionally used only even numbers in 
case something was found to be between the defined levels.


Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other 
municipalities[1], [2].  I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but 
my understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both 
“city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can 
annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of 
that township.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_township
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_civil_division


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:

Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other
municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my
understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both
“city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can
annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of
that township.


Scratch that.  Eleven states allow overlap[1]:

Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, 
Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont


admin_level=7 it is.

1. http://www.census.gov/govs/go/municipal_township_govs.html

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Anthony  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
>> Anthony  writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
 There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
 and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
 map.
>>>
>>> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
>>> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
>>> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
>>> levels.
>>
>> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
>> admin_level=7 in the US.
>
> What's wrong with admin_level=8?

According to Wikipedia, many townships are an intermediate form of
government below the county level but above (or sometimes merely
separate from) a city/municipality, although it varies by state (New
Jersey being one of the exceptions).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_divisions_of_the_United_States
#Townships_in_the_United_States

So that would give us

County -> admin_level=6
Township (if they exist) -> admin_level=7
City/municipality/town/village boundary -> admin_level=8

These would apply to the border of the thing, while something else
(probably a relation) would indicate what it is for labelling purposes.
Example: merged city-county governments (Louisville-Jefferson and
Lexington-Fayette, both in Kentucky) would have borders with
admin_level=6 but would be tagged as cities, because they need to have a
dot placed in the city center.  (They would probably /also/ be tagged
with a county relation/tag/whatever.)
-- 
Peter Budny  \
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CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>>
>> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other
>> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my
>> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both
>> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can
>> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of
>> that township.
>
> Scratch that.  Eleven states allow overlap[1]:
>
> Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri,
> Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont
>
> admin_level=7 it is.

Only in those 11 states, right?

I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
state level.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[John F. Eldredge]

Dieter Driest may have heard a garbled description of "urban renewal", a 
now-largely-discredited urban-planning technique where large areas of 
substandard housing were torn down and replaced by government-built public 
housing, what the British would term council estates.  Some of the land was 
used for new housing, some used for other large projects such as highway 
construction.  I am not aware of any cases of large areas simply being 
abandoned; downtown land is too valuable for this to be likely.  Current 
urban-planning philosophy calls for mixing low-income and moderate-income 
housing in the same neighborhoods.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com
Date  :Wed Oct 20 14:44:53 America/Chicago 2010


I am not aware of any location in the USA (or anywhere else in the world, for 
that matter) where a downtown was torn down for fear of riots.  There are a few 
cities where large numbers of buildings have been abandoned by their former 
owners because of the collapse of the local economy, after the primary employer 
went out of business, but that is not the same thing.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Oct 20 13:24:52 America/Chicago 2010


2010/10/20 Alex Mauer :
> The definitions are well-established.


but they are not reflected in the (international/main part of) the
wiki for key=place.

I don't know if the British do tag strictly according to the place
description, but I know that Italians and Germans don't. In Europe a
town can be quite small, but will still be a town and a village can
nowadays be quite big and still remain a village.

In the US I am not sure what are your criteria, what about density, I
am also not sure how to tag downtowns (the space where your cities
were until they were torn down in the 60ies and 70ies due to fear of
riots (scnr, sorry, that's maybe not true for all of them) etc.


>  Deal with it.  If you want to change
> them, go ahead and try but I’m sure there’ll be a lot of pushback from the
> community.


I doubt it in this case, as fixed population numbers can't be the
solution to this problem which is highly dependent on density and
spacial distribution/structure.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
> Anthony  writes:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:
>>> Anthony  writes:
>>>
 On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew  wrote:
> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in 
> PA
> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
> map.

 I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
 township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
 prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
 levels.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
>>> admin_level=7 in the US.
>>
>> What's wrong with admin_level=8?
>
> According to Wikipedia, many townships are an intermediate form of
> government below the county level but above (or sometimes merely
> separate from) a city/municipality, although it varies by state (New
> Jersey being one of the exceptions).

Pennsylvania is another one of the exceptions, and that's the state
this thread was initiated to talk about.

> So that would give us
>
> County -> admin_level=6
> Township (if they exist) -> admin_level=7
> City/municipality/town/village boundary -> admin_level=8

New Jersey and Pennsylvania townships should be at the same
admin_level as cities and boroughs.

As for "municipality", in NJ and PA, that means city, borough, or
township (or, in NJ, town or village).

Other states would potentially be different.  In Florida, towns,
cities, and villages (which are all just different terms for the same
thing, "municipality") would all be admin_level=8, because they're all
the same thing.  But Florida is not fully incorporated, so not all
areas of Florida would exist within an admin_level=8.

None of this has anything to do with place=*, which discusses
settlements, not administrative divisions.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote:

Only in those 11 states, right?

I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
state level.


Why treat it differently depending on the state?

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>>
>> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other
>> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my
>> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both
>> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can
>> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of
>> that township.
>
> Scratch that.  Eleven states allow overlap[1]:
>
> Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri,
> Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont

(note that these are not all called townships:
http://www.census.gov/govs/go/township_terms.html)
>
> admin_level=7 it is.

Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[John F. Eldredge]

Not all US states use the same administrative hierarchy.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:ha...@hawkesnest.net
Date  :Wed Oct 20 15:22:21 America/Chicago 2010


On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote:
> Only in those 11 states, right?
>
> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
> state level.

Why treat it differently depending on the state?

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Anthony  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
>> On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>>>
>>> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other
>>> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my
>>> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both
>>> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can
>>> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of
>>> that township.
>>
>> Scratch that.  Eleven states allow overlap[1]:
>>
>> Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri,
>> Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont
>>
>> admin_level=7 it is.
>
> Only in those 11 states, right?
>
> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
> state level.

No objection from me.  It'll make things a little more complicated, but
it's the best way to match the tags to what they actually represent.
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote:
>>
>> Only in those 11 states, right?
>>
>> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
>> state level.
>
> Why treat it differently depending on the state?

Because states do things so differently that a one-size-fits-all
solution makes no sense.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Anthony  wrote:
> None of this has anything to do with place=*, which discusses
> settlements, not administrative divisions.

IOW, a municipality may also be a settlement, but then, it may not be.




On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote:
>>
>> Only in those 11 states, right?
>>
>> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by
>> state level.
>
> Why treat it differently depending on the state?

Why not treat all of Europe the same?

You treat it differently depending on the state, because each state is
administered differently.

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 John F. Eldredge :
> I am not aware of any location in the USA (or anywhere else in the world, for 
> that matter) where a downtown was torn down for fear of riots.  There are a 
> few cities where large numbers of buildings have been abandoned by their 
> former owners because of the collapse of the local economy, after the primary 
> employer went out of business, but that is not the same thing.


detroit?
http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=de&q=detroit&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne+County,+Michigan-Territorium,+Vereinigte+Staaten&gl=it&ei=_U2_TNDkIKWU4gbKpfi4AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA&ll=42.330076,-83.034947&spn=0.001674,0.005284&t=k&z=18

have a look at the first picture here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diercke.de%2Fbilder%2Fomeda%2F1_3_2007_sek1_detroit1.pdf&rct=j&q=downtown%20stadtumbau%2060er%20jahre&ei=W1C_TJvhHsugOs3AlSw&usg=AFQjCNHZXgx9cT9rnMlPRCENaa6b6YG4Rw&cad=rja


even in Paris huge amounts of the old city were tore down in the 19th century

There are other examples, those are the most famous...

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 03:24 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

Not all US states use the same administrative hierarchy.


Yeah, but for example we use the same admin_level regardless of whether 
it’s called a county, a borough, or a parish; or a township vs. a town, etc.


When we’re using different words for the same thing[1], there’s no need 
to differentiate.  It’s the thing we care about, not the word used for it.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_civil_division


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 03:21 PM, Anthony wrote:

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Peter Budny  wrote:

So that would give us

County ->  admin_level=6
Township (if they exist) ->  admin_level=7
City/municipality/town/village boundary ->  admin_level=8


New Jersey and Pennsylvania townships should be at the same
admin_level as cities and boroughs.

As for "municipality", in NJ and PA, that means city, borough, or
township (or, in NJ, town or village).


I’ve updated the wiki to reflect this.


Other states would potentially be different.  In Florida, towns,
cities, and villages (which are all just different terms for the same
thing, "municipality")would all be admin_level=8, because they're all
the same thing.


They’re actually not the same thing, but they are all municipalities.


But Florida is not fully incorporated, so not all
areas of Florida would exist within an admin_level=8.


Florida doesn’t use townships anyway, so it’s not really relevant.

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 03:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

admin_level=7 it is.


Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.


Why the Dakotas?

—Alex Mauer “hawke”


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> > On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote:
> >>
> >> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other
> >> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my
> >> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both
> >> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can
> >> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of
> >> that township.
> >
> > Scratch that.  Eleven states allow overlap[1]:
> >
> > Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri,
> > Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont
>
> (note that these are not all called townships:
> http://www.census.gov/govs/go/township_terms.html)
> >
> > admin_level=7 it is.
>
> Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
> apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.
>
>
> FYI, it's the same with Minnesota: cities and townships are legally
different forms of municipalities (one incorporated, one unincorporated).
 Minnesota also has unorganized areas, which are legally under the
jurisdiction of the county, but which may have clusters of population that
would warrant a place in OSM (call them what you will--village, hamlet
whatever)
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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[John F. Eldredge]

Detroit is an example of areas being largely abandoned for economic reasons.  
It has been heavily dependent upon the automobile-manufacturing industry for 
decades, and as the market share of the US auto manufacturers shrunk, so did 
the number of jobs available in Detroit.  It is a larger-scale version of the 
ghost towns of the American west, which mostly date back to mines closing once 
the mineral deposits had been exhausted.  Detroit has had some notable riots, 
particularly during the civil-rights struggle of the 1960s, but the economic 
collapse began a generation later.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Oct 20 15:29:32 America/Chicago 2010


2010/10/20 John F. Eldredge :
> I am not aware of any location in the USA (or anywhere else in the world, for 
> that matter) where a downtown was torn down for fear of riots.  There are a 
> few cities where large numbers of buildings have been abandoned by their 
> former owners because of the collapse of the local economy, after the primary 
> employer went out of business, but that is not the same thing.


detroit?
http://maps.google.it/maps?hl=de&q=detroit&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne+County,+Michigan-Territorium,+Vereinigte+Staaten&gl=it&ei=_U2_TNDkIKWU4gbKpfi4AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA&ll=42.330076,-83.034947&spn=0.001674,0.005284&t=k&z=18

have a look at the first picture here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diercke.de%2Fbilder%2Fomeda%2F1_3_2007_sek1_detroit1.pdf&rct=j&q=downtown%20stadtumbau%2060er%20jahre&ei=W1C_TJvhHsugOs3AlSw&usg=AFQjCNHZXgx9cT9rnMlPRCENaa6b6YG4Rw&cad=rja


even in Paris huge amounts of the old city were tore down in the 19th century

There are other examples, those are the most famous...

cheers,
Martin

-- 
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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:

In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
of multiple municipalities."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)

So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:
> On 10/20/2010 03:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>>
>>> admin_level=7 it is.
>>
>> Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
>> apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.
>
> Why the Dakotas?

Read the link you provided: "In the remaining nine town or township
states (Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota,
Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, and Wisconsin), there is no
geographic overlapping of these two kinds of units." (In Wisconsin and
the New England states they're called towns.)

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony  wrote:
> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:
>
> In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
> of multiple municipalities."
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)
>
> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?

Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place?

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:
>>
>> In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
>> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
>> of multiple municipalities."
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)
>>
>> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?
>
> Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place?
>
By the common definition, yes.  For the purposes of OSM?  I don't
know, that's my question.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Peter Budny]

Anthony  writes:

> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:
>
> In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
> of multiple municipalities."
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)
>
> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?

I wouldn't think of school districts as a form of governmental/political
division, which is what admin_level represents in my mind.

Not that they shouldn't be on the map, but I think they belong under a
different tag.
-- 
Peter Budny  \
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CS PhD student \

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Anthony  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>>> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:
>>>
>>> In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
>>> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
>>> of multiple municipalities."
>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)
>>>
>>> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?
>>
>> Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place?
>>
> By the common definition, yes.  For the purposes of OSM?  I don't
> know, that's my question.

Okay, I'm going to go with no, for the sole reason that some school
districts are located in multiple counties, and some counties have
multiple school districts.

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 04:12 PM, Anthony wrote:

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony  wrote:

Okay, here's another wrench to throw in:

In Pennsylvania:  "School districts can comprise of one single
municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise
of multiple municipalities."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania)

So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7?


Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place?


By the common definition, yes.  For the purposes of OSM?  I don't
know, that's my question.


And the answer is “no” they’re not.  Much like postal codes, electoral 
districts, etc. Admin_level is not a placeholder for every possible 
boundary.



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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[john]

One example of a difference would be whether or not cities are subordinate to 
counties.  In Tennessee, for example, both cities and towns are subordinate to 
counties, which in turn are subordinate to the state. In Virginia, towns are 
subordinate to counties, which are then subordinate to the state; cities, on 
the other hand, cities are subordinate only to the state.  A Virginia city is 
not part of a county, even if it is physically surrounded by the county.  So, a 
city in Virginia is not on the same level of the hierarchy as a city in 
Tennessee.
 
---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?
>From  :mailto:ha...@hawkesnest.net
Date  :Wed Oct 20 15:38:42 America/Chicago 2010


On 10/20/2010 03:24 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> Not all US states use the same administrative hierarchy.

Yeah, but for example we use the same admin_level regardless of whether 
it’s called a county, a borough, or a parish; or a township vs. a town, etc.

When we’re using different words for the same thing[1], there’s no need 
to differentiate.  It’s the thing we care about, not the word used for it.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_civil_division


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Alex Mauer]

On 10/20/2010 04:07 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote:

Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.



FYI, it's the same with Minnesota: cities and townships are legally
different forms of municipalities (one incorporated, one unincorporated).


No, that’s a contradiction in terms. “unincorporated” basically means 
“outside of a municipality”.  Hence people talking about New Jersey 
being “fully incorporated” while Minnesota is not: Every place in NJ is 
part of a municipality.



Minnesota also has unorganized areas, which are legally under the
jurisdiction of the county, but which may have clusters of population that
would warrant a place in OSM (call them what you will--village, hamlet
whatever)


Unsurprisingly, Wisconsin is similar.  place=hamlet is the thing to use 
for these, but it’s irrelevant to the admin_level as there is no 
administrative boundary for unincorporated communities.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area discusses both of these 
topics.



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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 John F. Eldredge :
> Dieter Driest may have heard a garbled description of "urban renewal", a 
> now-largely-discredited urban-planning technique where large areas of 
> substandard housing were torn down and replaced by government-built public 
> housing, what the British would term council estates.  Some of the land was 
> used for new housing, some used for other large projects such as highway 
> construction.  I am not aware of any cases of large areas simply being 
> abandoned; downtown land is too valuable for this to be likely.  Current 
> urban-planning philosophy calls for mixing low-income and moderate-income 
> housing in the same neighborhoods.


yes sure, simply abandoned wouldn't hit it, but the structure changed
entirely from dense to open space, with huge amount of surface
parking, which is not exactly the typical centre use.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] how to tag US townships?

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/10/20 John F. Eldredge :
> Detroit has had some notable riots, particularly during the civil-rights 
>struggle of the 1960s, but the economic collapse began a generation later.


and now look when the demolishions were planned and executed.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] how to tag US townships?

[Brad Neuhauser]

Not that it matters greatly for this discussion, but in Minnesota
municipalities do include cities and townships. Ex:
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?year=2010&id=462.352 (subd. 2) or
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=200.02 (subd. 9).  Definitions
aren't the same in every state...

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Alex Mauer  wrote:

> On 10/20/2010 04:07 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
>
>> Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and
>>> apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8.
>>>
>>>
>>>  FYI, it's the same with Minnesota: cities and townships are legally
>> different forms of municipalities (one incorporated, one unincorporated).
>>
>
> No, that’s a contradiction in terms. “unincorporated” basically means
> “outside of a municipality”.  Hence people talking about New Jersey being
> “fully incorporated” while Minnesota is not: Every place in NJ is part of a
> municipality.
>
>
>  Minnesota also has unorganized areas, which are legally under the
>> jurisdiction of the county, but which may have clusters of population that
>> would warrant a place in OSM (call them what you will--village, hamlet
>> whatever)
>>
>
> Unsurprisingly, Wisconsin is similar.  place=hamlet is the thing to use for
> these, but it’s irrelevant to the admin_level as there is no administrative
> boundary for unincorporated communities.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area discusses both of these
> topics.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is highway=service, service=drive_thru a good idea?

[Sean Horgan]

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 15:46, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Anthony  wrote:
> > I'm not aware of any hyphens which are converted into underscores, let
> alone
> > that this is "predominantly" the case.  And even if it is "predominantly"
>
> man_made=pier
> power=sub_station
>
> A key or a value don't have to be correct grammatical English - they
> just have to be relatively clear and easy to remember. I strongly
> suggest always using underscores, never hyphens.
>
> > the case, that's no reason not to do things correctly in the future.
> What's
> > the point of converting a hyphen into an underscore?
>
> Not having to remember on each case which one it is.
>

+1.  Most compelling argument I've read.

--
Sean


>
> Steve
>
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