Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Marine Kelley]

Are you outright saying on the sldev mailing list, in the face of LL,  
that you are wanting to work at stealing enough content to "force"  
them to open the whole system ?

And you still wonder why your ideas are met with hostility ?

You should stop leeching other people's stuff and start your own  
project, preferably making some money with it. We'll see if you keep  
the same speech.


On 15 mars 2010, at 04:01, New Hax  wrote:

> On 3/14/10, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>>
>> Imho, SL would have have had better products if everything
>> had been free and open (no permission system). Then one could
>> learn from others and improve things, build upon the experience
>> and work of others, and nobody would make money of it or have
>> to be afraid that others would.
>>
>
> We can still make it that way. Copyclients still work for now. And
> lots of them cant be detected by Linden Labs.  So if we get out there
> and free a lot of content before Linden Labs closes up the viewer then
> Linden Labs will have no choice but to embrace a FREE and OPEN grid.
>
> Nobody should be making money in SL. Think, it could be a hacker or
> experimenter or THINKERS paradise instead of a capitalist platform.
>
>> The fact that scripts can't be copied is lucky for those
>> that are making real money in SL, it is their only and last
>> protection against losing their income.
>>
>
> And their time will come and their locked up proprietary stuff will be
> freed, also. There are lots of coders working on that.
>
>> That brings me to the fact that LL is currently working
>> in secret and without discussion on the implementation
>> of client-side scripting, and from the tiny bit of information
>> that leaked out, they are apparently trying hard to make
>> also THOSE scripts hard to copy / inspect / improve upon.
>>
>
> I say they should go for it with client side scripting. Then we will
> be able to open it up and share everyones scripts. Right now scripts
> are locked away on the server and is the last link that we as hackers
> and coders cant open.
>
> Everyone who believes in a real OPEN grid should get out there and
> copy and FREE (do not charge for it) as much proprietary content as
> you can. Teach content makers and Linden Labs by force (we have
> control) that the only future is FREE.
>
> 
> Join us now and share the software;
> You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free
>
> Hoarders can get piles of money,
> That is true, hackers, that is true.
> But they cannot help their neighbors;
> That's not good, hackers, that's not good.
>
> When we have enough free software
> At our call, hackers, at our call,
> We'll kick out those dirty licenses
> Ever more, hackers, ever more.
>
> Join us now and share the software;
> You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free.
> 
> Song PUBLIC DOMAIN by Richard M. Stallman!!!
>
> I'm OUT!
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Kevin Woolley]

@Soft Linden - apparently it's not just the 'one guy' - it looks like this
list is full of people who only want the viewer open sourced so they can
'free' intellectual property. 

I emphasise that it's your salary that is being paid by the likes of me
owning Sims, not ideological 'copyright is theft' zealots.

Linden Lab really need to put the foot down with this. Now.

A. Have the guts to stop apologising for Linden Lab's decisions. You own the
ballpark. Apple has a great developer program but that doesn't mean that it
squirmed to its users because XCode 3.2 beta (iPad capable) wasn't available
the moment Steve Jobs announced the iPad. 

B. Remove the Open Source licence from the viewer with immediate effect. The
volume of 'copyright is theft' zealots on this list should convince you that
continuing as open source will be a company-threatening mistake.

c. Create an 'iPhone' like walled garden.  There are numerous ways you could
do this, for example required all connection to the grid to operate via a
licensed closed-source version of libsl which uses some form of
public/private key to identify itself.  Or why not strip back the viewer so
it's analogous to the iPhone hardware and licence 'applet' development for
it?  

Apple has shown that it's perfectly possible to have a thriving developer
community based around extension to an existing tightly controlled platform.
Personally I'd happily swap the 'choice' of different Open Source viewers
for an 'applet store' on the Second Life website where I could go and
download (even pay for) a choice, of say, enhanced inventory management
tools which would slot right into the official Linden Viewer.  Actually I'd
even look at developing myself - a dollar or two per download over a
potential half a million use market could be quite useful :-)  Certainly
that's a much more interesting development model than just downloading the
source and making yet another derivative viewer. In fact I'd suggest you'd
get *more* innovation because an applet model would enable developers to
individually focus on and perfect just one aspect of the
interface/functionality that interested them.

When the Lab open sourced the viewer a couple of years ago that would have
looked like the best opportunity for harnessing community-driven development
because it was really the only proven option.  You now have other models
before you which could work better, without putting the means to 'liberate
content' directly into the hands of Hax and his ilk.  Just because content
might still be stolen by other means you are under no obligation to throw up
your hands and give him (and others) the means to do so on a plate. 



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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Nexii Malthus]

Your as funny as hax, kevin. Where do these delusional extremists come from?
The loud minority eh?

Great write-up Thomas! Those are well defined points, and it is really true,
stolen content doesn't really have any noticeable effect and if it's sold
can be quickly wiped away with a DMCA takedown notice

Each avatar is a human being behind it with real feelings and emotions, as
the old rule of thumb goes, "Treat your customer like a king", you should
really treat them as the human beings as they are, as you would want to be
treated in return.

It's a great article, do you keep an online copy somewhere up, like on a
blog? It would be neat for it to have a more permanent place for more eyes
to pry at. I don't think the intended target audience (content creators) has
much of a big base in this mailing list.

- Nexii
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-15, at 03:42, Kevin Woolley wrote:
> A. Have the guts to stop apologising for Linden Lab's decisions. You  
> own the
> ballpark. Apple has a great developer program but that doesn't mean  
> that it
> squirmed to its users because XCode 3.2 beta (iPad capable) wasn't  
> available
> the moment Steve Jobs announced the iPad.

Even Apple knows when to let the users drive. If Apple didn't listen  
to the users and developers back in the '90s when Steve Jobs wanted to  
cut the old Mac OS off cold, and Adobe told them they would NOT be  
porting Photoshop to NeXTStep (Yellow Box), they'd be out of business  
by now. Instead Apple deferred the release of Rhapsody for three  
years, produced Carbon as an interim framework for transitioning from  
Mac OS to Mac OS X, and ended up with a better product.

Microsoft has been through this as well. When they initially released  
Visual Studio .NET with crippled legacy support the developers  
rebelled en mass and kept using Visual Studio 6. They eventually r- 
released VS6 and brought back legacy support in later versions.

As for the applet store, look at the competition. None of the  
companies who have tried to replicate it have succeeded, because  
nobody else has the economies of scale. The idea that Linden Lab could  
make it work where Google's struggling is nuts.
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Soft Linden]

On Monday, March 15, 2010, Kevin Woolley  wrote:
> @Soft Linden - apparently it's not just the 'one guy' - it looks like this
> list is full of people who only want the viewer open sourced so they can
> 'free' intellectual property.

Who? There's a non-participant who showed up to troll, and Carlos who
says he wishes things were different so he could learn and experiment
more.

But - even if the list were swarming with looters itching to violate
others' rights, how would the app store solution you push be better
for stopping copying? Closing the source wouldn't help for the reasons
I gave in my first reply. How does closing source and adding yet
another API and distribution model make copying harder?
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Opensource Obscure]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:36:33 -0400, Glen Canaday 
wrote:
> Then what are you doing here?

Trolling. This is an effective place where to do that.
I'm sure he's having more fun than me.

opensource obscure


> 
> On 03/14/2010 06:32 PM, New Hax wrote:
>> I know better than to try to get rich off of selling ones and zeroes.
>>
>> On 3/14/10, Glen Canaday  wrote:
>>
>>> Then what are you doing in SL? Not making a living, I can assure you.
>>>
>>> Nor are you putting food on the table RL except perhaps by manual
labor,
>>> which cannot be copied. Ex: Ditches need to be dug. The ditch-digger
can
>>> be changed out, but that doesn't change the fact that even if you get
a
>>> new digger, you still have a ditch when you're done.
>>>
>>> OSS/Free Software and Proprietary software are the diggers; they're
not
>>> the ditch itself.
>>>
>>> On 03/14/2010 06:18 PM, New Hax wrote:
>>>  
 then what are you doing on an opensource list if you want your
content
 wrapped in DRM.

 sl will die if its not open. and you can't compare rl doors to the
 internet. if you dont lock your rl door I can come in and take
 something of yours that isnt replaceable.

 but on the internet as a content maker you can make INFINITE products
 so you arent losing anything if i copy it and make no money off of
it.


 On 3/14/10, Marine Kelley   wrote:


> well I am a content creator, content theft is a problem to me, it is
> tied
> to
> IP rights which are a legal issue. And I am not one of those who say
> "content theft is inevitable, let's not do anything about it". Doors
> can
> be
> lock picked, that's not a reason for me to leave my door wide open.
>
>
> On 14 March 2010 23:04, New Hax   wrote:
>
>
>  
>> On 3/14/10, Marine Kelley   wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Err... Content theft has always been a problem, will always be a
>>> problem,
>>> and LL better be on the same page with developers, content makers
>>> and
>>> customers here.
>>>
>>>  
>> content theft isn't a problem, never has been a problem, and is the
>> nature of the internet and digital things.  if content makers are
>> worried about content "theft" then they shouldn't be on SL. because
>> its inevitable and cant be stopped.
>>
>>
>>
>  
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Carlo Wood]

I hope that because your post was a reaction to mine,
people will NOT think that I share your ideals in the
same anarchistic way. I feel the need to state that I don't.

First of all, I have a good friend in-world that makes
his living in-world. And I'd do anything to help him,
because he is a very cool, nice person and everything
he does (and sells) is his own original and hard work.

Secondly, this mailinglist, and this thread in particular
is to wake up Linden Lab with the GOAL of a better communication.
Shouting that "we hackers" should force them to "free"
Second Life content by breaking the law is hardly constructive.
My goal is that Linden Lab becomes less secretive and more open
about their plans and designs before those are set in stone;
the only reasonable goal can be one where then a civil and
professional discussion follows where everyone has their
say, after which LL (with new insights) makes their decision
and convinces everyone of the real reasons why they make that
decision (thus not: "the users want this", but "sorry, you
are right, but we can't do that because we a for-profit
company". Whatever the argument, if it was correct I'd
shut up.

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 09:01:15PM -0600, New Hax wrote:
[...snip...]
> Everyone who believes in a real OPEN grid should get out there and
> copy and FREE (do not charge for it) as much proprietary content as
> you can. Teach content makers and Linden Labs by force (we have
> control) that the only future is FREE.
[...snip...]

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag, 15. März 2010 13:27:35 schrieb Opensource Obscure:
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:36:33 -0400, Glen Canaday 
> 
> wrote:
> > Then what are you doing here?
> 
> Trolling. This is an effective place where to do that.
> I'm sure he's having more fun than me.


thats what spamassassin blacklisting is for.

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Opensource Obscure]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:09:37 -0400, "Kent Quirk (Q Linden)"
 wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Marine Kelley wrote:
> 
>> However it is true that LL has delivered a bad message recently, by
>> publishing the TPV and the closed-source SL 2.0 the SAME day. The TPV
>> burdens us developers while freeing LL's hands, and the viewer 2.0 is
>> going to be adopted by newcomers, so it will eventually get a broader
>> audience than the rest. It could very easily be seen as competition. It
>> looks very close to some "fire-and-motion" technique. They suppress
>> open-source development by laying unbelievably heavy requirements upon
>> the devs, while moving forward and releasing their own viewer which is
>> not subject to said requirements. I do hope I'm wrong and this is not
the
>> message that LL wanted to send to us. But one can understand why so
many
>> teeth are gritting now.
>> 
> 
> What's frustrating about this for many of the Lindens is that we as an
> organization pushed hard -- and Merov in particular worked nights and
> weekends -- to get the Snowglobe source out on the same day that beta
was
> released, rather than waiting for our usual export process to work
itself
> out while we figure out how to make a new source control system
(mercurial)
> work for export. 
> 
> We actually believed we were doing something the community would really
> appreciate

"believed" means you stopped thinking that? as part of this community,
I appreciated that.

> getting the source out there the same day as beta. And yet
> somehow that became something bad. People keep repeating that "it's
closed
> source". 

well, "community" is a mysterious word.

for sure, here are FEW people who are VERY vocal.

and some of those people even claim they "talk 
for the community" - but this doesn't make it true. they
speak as members of the community, as I do.

let's count how many people kept repeating that
the viewer would have been closed source - and then 
let's compare that number with how many people read
this mailing list, and maybe with the number of people
who replies at least 1 time in the last year.

most people don't send replies just to say
"I agree" or "I'm fine with what it's going on".

what I see is that at least some serious developers
who actively contribute to the SL open development 
and/or to 3rd party viewers are NOT bashing LL for 
their strategy as other do. that makes me think.

opensource obscure
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Joel Foner]

...and then there's the pesky little truth that even if the viewer were
completely closed source, unless the basic architecture of personal computer
graphics processing across the industry is changed, and all of the current
personal computer hardware is retired, it will be possible to rip content
anyway on the client side, independent of any viewer software - as long as
you have some skills and are determined. A lot of the issue is a red herring
in many directions.

Joel
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Carlo Wood]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 01:29:16AM +, Thomas Grimshaw wrote:
> *I own and even have developed software that can copy any content from 
> second life.  Have I ever used this to violate copyright? Nope, I just 
> didn't want to spend time building in content protection when the 
> software was only for my use (to export my own builds, animations etc to 
> opensim).

Or wanting to modify it for personal reasons (not to modify it
and then sell it). Lots of products are no-mod under the false
impression that that makes it harder to copy them, while it
only advocates copying.

I only ever buy things that are modify. Often I want them to be
copy too, because I want a backup if I'm going to modify something
(or maybe multiple versions until I'm satisfied with the end result).
Finally, I need them to be trans often, because I have a partner
in world and we share everything. What is mine is his and visa
versa. Buying two of the same doesn't work if you want to modify
things (The product costs only L$ 100 (USD$ 0.36) but modding it
to fit my avie costs 2 HOURS (USD$ 100) and I really don't like
to do that TWICE).

How could we (... ok Linden Lab, cause we don't control the servers),
improve things?

* Allow people to keep a copy of modifiable objects in their
  inventory: change "no copy" to mean: only one may be rezzed
  at a time; but you can copy them inside your inventory and
  change them all seperatedly. (In fact, why not allow to
  sell products that can be rezzed N times, but no more).

* Allow giving no-trans copies to your partner anyway (make
  being a partner have a meaning). Still only one could be
  rezzed at a time if it's no-copy, but in that case you could
  buy two.

* Allow transfering modifications (after all those are your I.P.).
  Thus: buy Product --> copy product (in inventory, always possible)
  --> rez one copy and modify Product (this copy will have to
  remember the original anyway, because it needs to keep track
  of how many are rezzed), then allow to transfer/copy the
  changes between the two to anyone; this new asset should
  allow the new owner to apply it to the same Product (which
  they can buy from the original creator of needed), in fact
  this should be automated:

* Allow to point-click buy objects in world. Such an object
  might be created by X, then modified by Y and then modified
  by Z; each could have put a price on their modifications.
  The result might be too expensive, so it should be possible
  to quickly view the previous mods as well.

> *So what can we do?
> 
> *Please excuse a possibly callous tone - but STOP whining and start 
> thinking outside of the box.  You *will never be able to stop piracy 
> completely* - so don't even try. I've already explained why I think that 
> piracy is a war of convenience, and the solution is simple - make your 
> content more convenient.

See above :)  *)

*) .--.
   |  |
   |  |  <--- Original box here.
   |  |
   |  |
   `--'

> - Maximise accessibility. Keep your stores lag-free, don't use silly 
> teleport routing, and make your store organisation transparent.

Sorry, but the most annoying of all is to see a product in-world
and then have to find the creator, then his picks, then guess which
pick might be a LM to the shop where the product is sold, and
then either end up in bare land cause the shop moved or to end up
on a sim-sized "shop" where you can't find the product.

What is wrong with this image:

"OMG! I want that!" *right-click->buy->pay*done*.

> - Don't intimidate your customers.  For goodness sake, shut off those 
> stupid "copybot protection" scripts (they don't even work), and take 
> down those copyright notices. If these people are in YOUR store, it 
> means they're not in a store selling pirated stuff. Treat them with respect.

My creator-friend has this text in his Picks:

  Please don't copybot my products. If you can't
  afford it, ask me and I'll give to you for free.

[...snip...]

Carlo (without an 's').
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Vex Streeter]

Excellent discussion, Thomas - I think I concur on every point.

I'd add, however, that I think LL could tweak the economic model to 
discourage for-profit content theft.  Perhaps requiring that account be 
verified in order to convert L$ to real world currency or even a monthly 
L$ transaction limit.  No, I haven't thought about it very deeply, but 
since DRM is so often counterproductive, perhaps cracking down on the 
money laundering side of the equation would be a better (and much less 
intrusive) approach.

Event so, such things do not (and cannot) address the problem of people 
who rip off content without profit motive. The basic truth is that some 
content requires more up front time and effort than a service-based 
economic model can support. I've never heard a cogent argument from the 
"everything digital should be gratis" crowd on how they thing such 
things ought to be funded.

Speaking as someone whose RL work has been ripped off and is widely 
distributed for free, I *really* wish I had the same options that SL 
could offer in the real world.

Cheers,
Vex

Thomas Grimshaw wrote:
> This post is likely to incur some feelings of emotions in a lot of you; 
> I ask that you bear with me and be open minded towards these words. I 
> recognise that many of you won't agree with me; it is but an attempt to 
> try and shine a searchlight into the hysteria.
>   

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)]

I agree on both points.  I suspect there are a bunch of us who have little time 
for the raving that's filled the list the last few days.  I usually contribute 
to discussions with some substance and there's been precious little here. 
Thomas' points and the general behavior of the Lindens on the list have been 
the exception. Thank you for injecting some sanity in an otherwise less than 
sane thread.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com 
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Miro
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:47 PM
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

VERY well written Thomas - kudos!

And since I'm delurking briefly, kudos also to Soft for the patience he 
has exhibited in the the recent discussion.

[goes back to lurking]

On 03/14/2010 09:29 PM, Thomas Grimshaw wrote:
> This post is likely to incur some feelings of emotions in a lot of you;
> I ask that you bear with me and be open minded towards these words. I
> recognise that many of you won't agree with me; it is but an attempt to
> try and shine a searchlight into the hysteria.
[snip]
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Soft Linden]

On Monday, March 15, 2010, Vex Streeter  wrote:
> Excellent discussion, Thomas - I think I concur on every point.
>
> I'd add, however, that I think LL could tweak the economic model to
> discourage for-profit content theft.  Perhaps requiring that account be
> verified in order to convert L$ to real world currency or even a monthly
> L$ transaction limit.  No, I haven't thought about it very deeply, but
> since DRM is so often counterproductive, perhaps cracking down on the
> money laundering side of the equation would be a better (and much less
> intrusive) approach.

We're very active on squashing the financial side, and go out of our
way to prevent cash-outs in these cases, even adding burden to
third-party exchanges. It's best done with a multi-pronged approach,
so our successes there don't stop us from supplementing with other
approaches.

Any additional ideas on squashing fraud are always appreciated, via
mail to secur...@lindenlab.com. Please don't hold those discussions on
this list.
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag, 15. März 2010 15:31:14 schrieb Soft Linden:
> On Monday, March 15, 2010, Vex Streeter  wrote:
> > Excellent discussion, Thomas - I think I concur on every point.
> > 
> > I'd add, however, that I think LL could tweak the economic model to
> > discourage for-profit content theft.  Perhaps requiring that account be
> > verified in order to convert L$ to real world currency or even a monthly
> > L$ transaction limit.  No, I haven't thought about it very deeply, but
> > since DRM is so often counterproductive, perhaps cracking down on the
> > money laundering side of the equation would be a better (and much less
> > intrusive) approach.
> 
> We're very active on squashing the financial side, and go out of our
> way to prevent cash-outs in these cases, even adding burden to
> third-party exchanges. It's best done with a multi-pronged approach,
> so our successes there don't stop us from supplementing with other
> approaches.
> 
> Any additional ideas on squashing fraud are always appreciated, via
> mail to secur...@lindenlab.com. Please don't hold those discussions on
> this list.


Aren't there dayly,weekly and monthly limits on the lindex anyways?

... I think limiting "cash out" to verified accounts would help... or not. 
depends on what passes as "verified". "Payment info on file" definitely isn't 
enough, since you need that to cash out anyways, or where would the cash go?

Aristotle, on the other hand, is nothing but a poor joke, seeing as how many 
people successfully verified as elvis, or kurt cobain...

Sending in a phone bill and a copy of a passport, on the third hand, wouldn't 
really mean much either... It's a more-or-less working approach to verify that 
someone either is who he is, or that that someone's parents have a 
photocopier, and sloppy habits with their phone bills...

... how about cashing out with daily/weekly/monthly limits, and only towards a 
genuine credit card, no paypal, unless you verify by some genuine ID 
service... for example post ident?

... that's a german service where a website gives you a form to fill out & 
print, then you waltz over to any nearest post office, present that document 
and your passport or ID card (nothing else accepted), and the post clerk signs 
the form, confirming that you really are who you are.

... that's legally accepted over here for "adult verification" for dvd 
rentals, and for opening a bank account online, up to the degree of not 
needing any other papers signed anymore after that.


bye,
LC
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Glen Canaday]

I agree. This really doesn't belong on this list.
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Vex Streeter]

Soft Linden wrote:
> Any additional ideas on squashing fraud are always appreciated, via
> mail to secur...@lindenlab.com. Please don't hold those discussions on
> this list.
>   
Understood - I know there is considerable effort in this area.  Mainly I 
wanted to opine that such limits are much more effective than DRM at 
discouraging profit-motive copyright infringement.

Cheers,
Vex


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

People can still simply sell the L$ for a fraction of the market price
directly to other people, without ever going thru an exchange service,
that's how i would do it if i wanted to cash out illegal money. Trying
to limit usage of exchange services only works for the dumber outlaws.
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Lawson English]

Vex Streeter wrote:
> Soft Linden wrote:
>   
>> Any additional ideas on squashing fraud are always appreciated, via
>> mail to secur...@lindenlab.com. Please don't hold those discussions on
>> this list.
>>   
>> 
> Understood - I know there is considerable effort in this area.  Mainly I 
> wanted to opine that such limits are much more effective than DRM at 
> discouraging profit-motive copyright infringement.
>
>
>   

Well, "DRM" the SL permissions system ain't but it IS a "digital rights 
management system" in the broader sense that it is meant to enable at 
least legal protections against IP theft...

...and, the one court case I'm aware of almost established that it is 
sufficient for taking legal action. At least the judge didn't toss the 
case out of court at first glance.

Lawson

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Lawson English]

Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> People can still simply sell the L$ for a fraction of the market price
> directly to other people, without ever going thru an exchange service,
> that's how i would do it if i wanted to cash out illegal money. Trying
> to limit usage of exchange services only works for the dumber outlaws.
>   


Except ALL L$ transactions are monitored. Give someone $L 1,000,000 in 
one chunk or in one million chunks, and it will still trigger alarms.


Lawson
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for comments about llSetAgentEnvironment / SVC-5520

[Joshua Bell]

The Web evolved into an amazing platform for experience and
application delivery by offering sandboxed experiences within a client
applications under the control of remote services. I'm writing this
email in a client implemented entirely in a Web browser, where the
experience is entirely dictated by a server.

Anyone else remember when background colors were introduced on Web
pages? Oh, the horror, taking us away from our pristine, TeX-like
austerity! Allowing the server to dictate the visual experience was a
radical thought - and of course, most of them did it pretty poorly.
There is still a special place in my heart black text on a dark purple
background - in Times Roman, of course.

The amount of control that Web browsers grant to site creators over
the visual experience today is stunning. Communities froth at the
mouth over browsers that score less than 100% on Acid3 because that
means the user isn't getting the ideal server-desired appearance. (And
let's not get started discussing client side code execution.)

Yet a sane, sensible model has evolved, albeit painfully. Sites can
build professional UI by limiting capturing clicks and overriding text
selection, yet can't read the user's private data via the clipboard or
write to local files except via Cookies. Popups are available but
limited to avoid annoyance and framed to prevent spoofing. Users can
override stylesheets with custom styles, primarily for accessibility
purposes. Practically speaking, those are used infrequently; clients
offer zooming and other tools, and sites strive for maximum usability,
and alternative clients are available for specific accessibility
needs.

The Web is pretty darn amazing and useful. I'd like to think that SL
can learn from how the Web did things.

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
 wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Kelly Linden  wrote:
>> Windlight settings should be a part of the build and not something
>> you have to opt into or be bugged with a dialog to see.*
>
> Well, then how about automatic applications of animations to your
> avatar, because a "content creator" thought it would be arty or cool?
> Or malicious Windlight settings that blind you, because it's
> "artistic" and "part of the shared experience"?
>
> The enhancement request as it stands calls for a permissions opt-in
> for having your viewer settings changed, and I support it in that
> form.
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Robert Martin]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Lawson English  wrote:
> Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> People can still simply sell the L$ for a fraction of the market price
>> directly to other people, without ever going thru an exchange service,
>> that's how i would do it if i wanted to cash out illegal money. Trying
>> to limit usage of exchange services only works for the dumber outlaws.
>>
>
>
> Except ALL L$ transactions are monitored. Give someone $L 1,000,000 in
> one chunk or in one million chunks, and it will still trigger alarms.
>
>
As long as the various national Departments of Revenue don't force an
in-world presence
(and start taxing avs) this is nearly a non issue (now if you are
pumping millions of lindens on a monthly basis cross RL borders then
there may be a problem)

on the content issue make a Blessed Format to do Exports and Imports
have any TPV on the registry use said format and that is that bit
"solved"



-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Are the people selling illegal copies making that much money that fast?


On 15/3/2010 17:40, Lawson English wrote:
> Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> People can still simply sell the L$ for a fraction of the market price
>> directly to other people, without ever going thru an exchange service,
>> that's how i would do it if i wanted to cash out illegal money. Trying
>> to limit usage of exchange services only works for the dumber outlaws.
>>   
> 
> 
> Except ALL L$ transactions are monitored. Give someone $L 1,000,000 in
> one chunk or in one million chunks, and it will still trigger alarms.
> 
> 
> Lawson
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Maya Remblai]

New Hax wrote:
> but on the internet as a content maker you can make INFINITE products
> so you arent losing anything if i copy it and make no money off of it.
>   
Not true. See the following example that actually happened to me:

Person A rips a large number of products, including mine. He boxes them 
and gives them away, for free, claiming he has my permission (which he 
doesn't). Now, the total value of my products involved was $150 USD. If 
he only gave the box to 10 people (it was actually more than that) I'm 
now out $1500 USD. Person A has done a huge amount of monetary damage to 
me by taking away sales.

It's true that content theft happens, but it depends on the platform and 
what you do about it. Because all of SL, including its content, is under 
the direct control of LL, it is reasonable to expect LL to remove all 
stolen content from users' inventories. They CAN tell the difference 
between the original and ripped copies. The problem with content theft 
in SL comes, not from the initial theft, but from LL's lack of action. 
They systematically violate the DMCA by simply removing one instance of 
the stolen content, and sometimes they don't even do that. (The last 
time I filed a DMCA, they reported that they removed the individual 
products from the thief's inventory, but not the box containing more 
copies!) So the solution isn't really in preventing theft, it's in LL 
following DMCA law. And it IS a law, IP theft is still theft, and there 
are legal ramifications.

FYI, Person A was permabanned following DMCA orders.

Maya
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Maya Remblai]

Soft Linden wrote:
> Who? There's a non-participant who showed up to troll, and Carlos who
> says he wishes things were different so he could learn and experiment
> more.
>
> But - even if the list were swarming with looters itching to violate
> others' rights, how would the app store solution you push be better
> for stopping copying? Closing the source wouldn't help for the reasons
> I gave in my first reply. How does closing source and adding yet
> another API and distribution model make copying harder?

Exactly. The people that say open source is the root of all theft are 
not only ignoring the fact that theft happens and has been happening 
regardless of open source availability, but they're also ignoring the 
importance of open source viewers. To those people, as an example, I say 
have a look at the JIRA, at the number of people who have had seizures 
or otherwise become ill from using Viewer 2.0. Those people MUST use a 
third party viewer once 2.0 goes standard, or leave SL forever. Even if 
you overlook the ethical and moral problems of taking that option away 
from them, doing so would mean a considerable loss of income for content 
creators and LL. And not just because those people wouldn't be there 
buying things anymore. They also wouldn't be creating, and the related 
schools, hospitals, and other non-profits the LL has been trying to 
attract will pull out.

Maya

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Carlo Wood]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 04:22:58PM -0600, Maya Remblai wrote:
> Not true. See the following example that actually happened to me:
> 
> Person A rips a large number of products, including mine. He boxes them 
> and gives them away, for free, claiming he has my permission (which he 
> doesn't). Now, the total value of my products involved was $150 USD. If 
> he only gave the box to 10 people (it was actually more than that) I'm 
> now out $1500 USD. Person A has done a huge amount of monetary damage to 
> me by taking away sales.

Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.

It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
L$ 40,000 in your shop.

In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
them to spend less real money.

So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Maya Remblai]

Hm, yes, I suppose that is true. My mind works mostly in absolutes, it's 
easier to just count all the stolen freebies as lost sales. You're 
right, however. My mistake. It was probably fueled by my general bad 
feelings about the incident, because I DO use my earnings in the real 
world, and I also have a strong sense of justice. It bothers me more 
than it should when someone can steal content and go virtually 
unpunished. Even the first thief who was permabanned was back with an 
alt right away.

Maya

Carlo Wood wrote:
> Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
> you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
> in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.
>
> It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
> those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
> L$ 40,000 in your shop.
>
> In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
> they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
> them to spend less real money.
>
> So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
> but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.
>
>   

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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Peter Swales]

As someone who uses a declawed copybot (limited to my own created items
only) to copy from main grid to my openserver and back I find what New Hax
is saying disgusting, People make valid real money off what they make, just
because it is in ones and zeroes makes no difference, an apple is just
protons and electrons, it is how they are put together (if you excuse the
rather bad analogy XD) you have no right to steal the product because of
what medium it is in.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Maya Remblai <
snowfox...@dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote:

> Hm, yes, I suppose that is true. My mind works mostly in absolutes, it's
> easier to just count all the stolen freebies as lost sales. You're
> right, however. My mistake. It was probably fueled by my general bad
> feelings about the incident, because I DO use my earnings in the real
> world, and I also have a strong sense of justice. It bothers me more
> than it should when someone can steal content and go virtually
> unpunished. Even the first thief who was permabanned was back with an
> alt right away.
>
> Maya
>
> Carlo Wood wrote:
> > Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
> > you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
> > in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.
> >
> > It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
> > those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
> > L$ 40,000 in your shop.
> >
> > In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
> > they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
> > them to spend less real money.
> >
> > So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
> > but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.
> >
> >
>
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perl -ple'(/[^.-\s]/)?(s.[^a-z0-9\s].$_=unpack"B*",$&;y;01;\n`;;lc.ge,y.
`-z0-9.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.,s-\S-(unpack"B*",$&)." "
-ge,s-\b01+0--g,y,01,-.,):(y,-.,01,,s,([01]+),0 .1x(6-length$1).0 .$1,ge
,s-\b([01]+) ?-pack"B*",$1-ge,y.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.
`-z0-9.,s-([\n`]{8})-$_=$1;y;\n`;01;;pack"B*",$_-ge)'
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Peter Swales]

Just to clarify, I only do stuff I create, just trying to say not all users
of copy programs do it to steal in any shape or form

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Peter Swales wrote:

> As someone who uses a declawed copybot (limited to my own created items
> only) to copy from main grid to my openserver and back I find what New Hax
> is saying disgusting, People make valid real money off what they make, just
> because it is in ones and zeroes makes no difference, an apple is just
> protons and electrons, it is how they are put together (if you excuse the
> rather bad analogy XD) you have no right to steal the product because of
> what medium it is in.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Maya Remblai <
> snowfox...@dragonkeepcreations.com> wrote:
>
>> Hm, yes, I suppose that is true. My mind works mostly in absolutes, it's
>> easier to just count all the stolen freebies as lost sales. You're
>> right, however. My mistake. It was probably fueled by my general bad
>> feelings about the incident, because I DO use my earnings in the real
>> world, and I also have a strong sense of justice. It bothers me more
>> than it should when someone can steal content and go virtually
>> unpunished. Even the first thief who was permabanned was back with an
>> alt right away.
>>
>> Maya
>>
>> Carlo Wood wrote:
>> > Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
>> > you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
>> > in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.
>> >
>> > It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
>> > those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
>> > L$ 40,000 in your shop.
>> >
>> > In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
>> > they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
>> > them to spend less real money.
>> >
>> > So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
>> > but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.
>> >
>> >
>>
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>
>
> --
> perl -ple'(/[^.-\s]/)?(s.[^a-z0-9\s].$_=unpack"B*",$&;y;01;\n`;;lc.ge,y.
> `-z0-9.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.,s-\S-(unpack"B*",$&)." "
> -ge,s-\b01+0--g,y,01,-.,):(y,-.,01,,s,([01]+),0 .1x(6-length$1).0 .$1,ge
> ,s-\b([01]+) ?-pack"B*",$1-ge,y.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.
> `-z0-9.,s-([\n`]{8})-$_=$1;y;\n`;01;;pack"B*",$_-ge)'
>



-- 
perl -ple'(/[^.-\s]/)?(s.[^a-z0-9\s].$_=unpack"B*",$&;y;01;\n`;;lc.ge,y.
`-z0-9.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.,s-\S-(unpack"B*",$&)." "
-ge,s-\b01+0--g,y,01,-.,):(y,-.,01,,s,([01]+),0 .1x(6-length$1).0 .$1,ge
,s-\b([01]+) ?-pack"B*",$1-ge,y.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.
`-z0-9.,s-([\n`]{8})-$_=$1;y;\n`;01;;pack"B*",$_-ge)'
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

there are important differences between actual theft and unauthorized
copying...

On 15/3/2010 20:27, Peter Swales wrote:
> As someone who uses a declawed copybot (limited to my own created items
> only) to copy from main grid to my openserver and back I find what New
> Hax is saying disgusting, People make valid real money off what they
> make, just because it is in ones and zeroes makes no difference, an
> apple is just protons and electrons, it is how they are put together (if
> you excuse the rather bad analogy XD) you have no right to steal the
> product because of what medium it is in.
> 
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Maya Remblai
>  > wrote:
> 
> Hm, yes, I suppose that is true. My mind works mostly in absolutes, it's
> easier to just count all the stolen freebies as lost sales. You're
> right, however. My mistake. It was probably fueled by my general bad
> feelings about the incident, because I DO use my earnings in the real
> world, and I also have a strong sense of justice. It bothers me more
> than it should when someone can steal content and go virtually
> unpunished. Even the first thief who was permabanned was back with an
> alt right away.
> 
> Maya
> 
> Carlo Wood wrote:
> > Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
> > you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
> > in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.
> >
> > It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
> > those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
> > L$ 40,000 in your shop.
> >
> > In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
> > they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
> > them to spend less real money.
> >
> > So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
> > but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.
> >
> >
> 
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> privileges
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> perl -ple'(/[^.-\s]/)?(s.[^a-z0-9\s].$_=unpack"B*",$&;y;01;\n`;;lc.ge
> ,y.
> `-z0-9.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.,s-\S-(unpack"B*",$&)." "
> -ge,s-\b01+0--g,y,01,-.,):(y,-.,01,,s,([01]+),0 .1x(6-length$1).0 .$1,ge
> ,s-\b([01]+) ?-pack"B*",$1-ge,y.ajzges}mqo{hrkxypibuw|vnt...@px\\^_ogca.
> `-z0-9.,s-([\n`]{8})-$_=$1;y;\n`;01;;pack"B*",$_-ge)'
> 
> 
> 
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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=WJn2
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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Rob Nelson]

And what about value of goods, something we learned in highschool
civics?  The more stuff that is available, the less it's valued.  If I
were to somehow make a system IRL that cloned pure gold by the
truckload, and set up enough plants to produce gold, would gold be worth
as much as it was before I started making more gold available?  This can
be applied to no-copy furniture makers.

Fred Rookstown

On Mon, 2010-03-15 at 23:57 +0100, Carlo Wood wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 04:22:58PM -0600, Maya Remblai wrote:
> > Not true. See the following example that actually happened to me:
> > 
> > Person A rips a large number of products, including mine. He boxes them 
> > and gives them away, for free, claiming he has my permission (which he 
> > doesn't). Now, the total value of my products involved was $150 USD. If 
> > he only gave the box to 10 people (it was actually more than that) I'm 
> > now out $1500 USD. Person A has done a huge amount of monetary damage to 
> > me by taking away sales.
> 
> Not entirely true, first of all, he didn't steal any money from
> you, nor any goods; unless you suddenly saw a significant drop
> in revenue then nothing really happened, financially spoken.
> 
> It certainly isn't true that if he did NOT give that box to
> those ten people that all ten would have come to you and spend
> L$ 40,000 in your shop.
> 
> In fact, most people spend a fixed amount of money in SL. If
> they get anything for free on top of that, it doesn't cause
> them to spend less real money.
> 
> So, surely, you didn't get any MORE money because of this..
> but you didn't *lose* $1500 either, not even a fraction of that.
> 


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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Glen Canaday]

Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.

find: `/home/glen/Programs/Second': No such file or directory
find: 
`Life/Snowglobe-2.0-build/trunk/indra/viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged':
 
No such file or directory

Bright side - got thru my fist build! Least - compiling and linking 
worked lol

--GC
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[opensource-dev] Yay! (was: Re: oh give me a break)

[Glen Canaday]

Screwed up the topic. All better now.


 >>

Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.

find: `/home/glen/Programs/Second': No such file or directory
find: 
`Life/Snowglobe-2.0-build/trunk/indra/viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged':
 
No such file or directory

Bright side - got thru my fist build! Least - compiling and linking 
worked lol

--GC
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Re: [opensource-dev] Yay!

[Glen Canaday]

lol.. define 'proper' ;P

Release, non-standalone? If this worls properly I'll see if I can do a 
non-patched pure 2.0 build. If LL's interested, they can have it.


--GC

On 03/15/2010 11:14 PM, Tony Agudo wrote:


Congrats on the successful build, Glen. I hope this means a proper 
Snowglobe 2.0 binary for Linux isn't far behind anymore.


On Mar 15, 2010 10:08 PM, "Glen Canaday" > wrote:


Screwed up the topic. All better now.


>>

Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.

find: `/home/glen/Programs/Second': No such file or directory
find:
`Life/Snowglobe-2.0-build/trunk/indra/viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged':
No such file or directory

Bright side - got thru my fist build! Least - compiling and linking
worked lol

--GC
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Re: [opensource-dev] Yay!

[Glen Canaday]

Me too. It's part of why I wanted it to build so bad. Others can build 
it - this is actually my first successful build attempt.


--GC

On 03/15/2010 11:24 PM, Tony Agudo wrote:


Yup, that sort of proper(at least would run okay). I'm a bit tired of 
seeing "no Linux binary available" on the wiki page and I'd love to do 
performance comparisons of it against Viewer 2.0.


On Mar 15, 2010 10:16 PM, "Glen Canaday" > wrote:


lol.. define 'proper' ;P

Release, non-standalone? If this worls properly I'll see if I can do a 
non-patched pure 2.0 build. If LL's interested, they can have it.


--GC

On 03/15/2010 11:14 PM, Tony Agudo wrote:


Congrats on the successful build, Glen. I hope this means a proper 
Snowglobe 2.0 binary for Linux isn't far behind anymore.


On Mar 15, 2010 10:08 PM, "Glen Canaday" > wrote:


Screwed up the topic. All better now.


>>

Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.

find: `/home/glen/Programs/Second': No such file or directory
find:
`Life/Snowglobe-2.0-build/trunk/indra/viewer-linux-i686-relwithdebinfo/newview/packaged':
No such file or directory

Bright side - got thru my fist build! Least - compiling and linking
worked lol

--GC
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Re: [opensource-dev] Yay! (was: Re: oh give me a break)

[Lilly]

Le 16 mars 2010 à 04:08, Glen Canaday a écrit :

> Screwed up the topic. All better now.
> 
> 
>>> 
> 
> Linux build of Snowglobe-2.0 svn doesn't like spaces in the build path.
> 

Who puts spaces on unix pathes ? ;)

Lilly
pixelgi...@gmail.com



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Re: [opensource-dev] oh give me a break

[Lawson English]

Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Are the people selling illegal copies making that much money that fast?
>
>
>
>   
I was thinking more in terms of drug laundering and the like, not 
revenue from selling stolen prims. Jumped off-topic a tad, sorry.


Lawson

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