[issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Mary Wood]

> Oh dear. Here's me tossing my EUR 0.2 into a religious debate.
> I know practically nothing about religion, and even less about
> Christianity. I have, though, read parts of the Christian bible
> in the past.

If one is looking to learn a little more about a given religion from
an unbiased source (not always easy to find), a good start is
Religious Tolerance.org;



I've found them to be very accurate and very easy reading ... good
place to go to look up this week's religious holiday and see what
all the hoopla is about, or as a spring board for deeper learning.

>  I think the most important thing about religious debates is to have

> them in the first place.

... And having them in a largely open minded forum.  I generally
stay away from such debates/discussions as most people I
encounter have difficulty discussing the topic calmly and
rationally.  They end up loudly, dramatically and defensively
telling me why I'm going to burn in hell while doing the adult
version of a child covering his/her ears and singing so as not
to have to hear what the other person is saying.

> This whole thread has simply been a delight, a hearty thank
> you to whoever started it.  Granted, it's stretching [issues] a
> bit, but still great fun.

I agree, it's refreshing to be able to discuss a charged topic
with folk who, well, don't fit my above description.  And I
don't know that it's really stretching issues, as the original
question is if organized religion (esp. Christianity) and open
minds (esp. those in a set such as linuxchix) are mutually
exclusive.  I'd say that fits with the group and philosophy!

- Mary; still avoiding homework



--
"The dream dreams the dreamer"
 - Talaxian proverb




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Free FrameMaker beta for Linux

[Snarfblat]

Caitlyn Martin wrote:
>
> I think I need to point out that Adobe is one of the companies funding the
> lobbying in favor of UCITA.  I don't often agree with RMS, but he is 100%
> correct when he calls UCITA the greatest threat to Free / Open Source
> software today.  So...  I would like to encourage everyone to treat Adobe
> with the disdain that many people seem to reserve for Microsoft.  These
> folks are out to kill the Linux / Open Source community.
> 

These people are out to make a fat dollar.  And to do that they want to
be the almighty dictators of content, enforcing how, when, and where you
are able to get their information.  Personally I think this will be
irrelevant either way the cards fall.  In the unlikely event that is
does get accepted on a wide level, the amount of violation of this law
(hmm.. how many people do you know will gladly bind themselves to the
terms of this law?) will make it a failure anyway.  

This doesnt mean that I will not do anything to prevent it, but if it is
passed it will have to be enforced, and the enforcement of a law like
this one will be a monumental task, which will hopefully bankrupt the
companies attempting to enforce it ;)

Information is one of the hardest things to control, and they are
misguided if they think a law will let them do it.

I do not want to see this passed, as it would still create major
headaches, and I think everyone should do their part to keep it so.. but
it is not a death threat for open source IMHO.

Does anyone know of some online resources organized against the UCITA?

-- 
.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.oO()Oo.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://cubicmetercrystal.com/
 "You are the product of a mutational union 
   of ~640Mbytes of genetic information."


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Rik Hemsley]

#if Mary Wood
> If one is looking to learn a little more about a given religion from
> an unbiased source (not always easy to find), a good start is
> Religious Tolerance.org;
[...]

Cool :) I'm actually quite interested in religions, despite not
liking them in general (I blame them for lots of things...)

Will be nice to be able to read some unbiased info.

> ... And having them in a largely open minded forum.  I generally
> stay away from such debates/discussions as most people I
> encounter have difficulty discussing the topic calmly and
> rationally.  They end up loudly, dramatically and defensively
> telling me why I'm going to burn in hell while doing the adult
> version of a child covering his/her ears and singing so as not
> to have to hear what the other person is saying.

Hehe, I have a friend who's a Christian (yes, there are a couple
left in .uk) He's not shy to tell me he's been ringing bells
over the weekend, but he's completely opposite to the above
description. You couldn't get him into a rage about religion
if you tried :) Mind you, he does sign his messages 'God bless,'
- but he does that to annoy me :)

> I agree, it's refreshing to be able to discuss a charged topic
> with folk who, well, don't fit my above description.  And I
> don't know that it's really stretching issues, as the original
> question is if organized religion (esp. Christianity) and open
> minds (esp. those in a set such as linuxchix) are mutually
> exclusive.  I'd say that fits with the group and philosophy!
[...]

God. I have this impression, rightly or wrongly, that the US
is full of Christians, and right-wing ones at that. Plus it looks
from here like they have a lot of power and that the US is getting
progressively less liberal and more conservative. Speaking from
a country that gets more liberal by the day, I'd like to find
out what the real story is. Perhaps seeing as there are a few
open-minded US citizens around here they'll know the beef, so to
speak. It also looks like .ca is not following in the footsteps
of the US. That impression is only from hearing people from .ca
talk here. It's newly formed :)

Rik

-- 
Buy time.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Jeff]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 07:00:11PM +, Rik Hemsley wrote:
> #if Mary Wood
> God. I have this impression, rightly or wrongly, that the US
> is full of Christians, and right-wing ones at that. Plus it looks
> from here like they have a lot of power and that the US is getting
> progressively less liberal and more conservative. Speaking from

I think that the US is actually getting more conservative, at least in
respect to the wishes of big business.  The conservative (reactionary?)
Christian right-wingers are one of those loud annoying groups that makes
sure they get heard above everyone else.  It's kinda like those idiots
who go and flame the living daylights out of anyone who criticizes
{Linux|Windows|OS/2|Amiga|You get the idea}, they are loud and get
heard, and the more reasonable people in the group get drowned out...
  
Even though that is the case with loud right wing polititians, I would
have to say that the country is still going down their path.  I look at
my country and I see a government controlled by corporations, which is
the real cause of the conservatism, the republicans (and democrats, they
are by no means innocent) just go for these policies because they've
been payed off.

In actuality, we have this huge population of people who just don't give
a rat's something we can't talk about on the radio.  There are a lot of
Christians, mostly of one Protestant denomination or another, and there
are also a lot of atheists too, but they all just don't care, they don't
vote, they sit in front of their TV's and feel the world is just fine,
or are angry that the damn indians get to fish where they can't (sorry,
that one came up in class, and we have some outspoken bigots in there..
grrr).  

Yeah, I do find this all rather saddening, and the worst part seems to
be that I'm in a minority as far as political opinions are concerned..
Oh well, I'll figure out something.

-- 
Jeff
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS/M/>P d-(pu) s+:- a17>? C++() L+++ UL@>$ P+ E--- W++@ N+ o? K++ w--- O? M 
V- PS+ PE(--)@ Y+@ PGP++ t+ 5 X++@ R++@ !tv@ b++ DI D- G e- h! r% y?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

My Public Key -- http://24.5.73.229/pubkey.txt 

 PGP signature

RE: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[x]

>In actuality, we have this huge population of people who just don't give
>a rat's something we can't talk about on the radio.  There are a lot of
>Christians, mostly of one Protestant denomination or another, and there
>are also a lot of atheists too, but they all just don't care, they don't
>vote, they sit in front of their TV's and feel the world is just fine,
>or are angry that the damn indians get to fish where they can't (sorry,
>that one came up in class, and we have some outspoken bigots in there..
>grrr).

Not all US people are bigoted small-minded idiots who think everything
should go their way, but those people make the news more often (and thus get
more attention) than those of us just living our lives and trying to keep
the government/ church/ special interest groups off our backs and out of our
lives.  I see two (related?) parts of this - first that people don't take
responsibility for their own actions (i.e. the burns caused by McD's coffee
spilled in lap while driving was McD's fault for making the coffee so hot,
always suing people for your own stupidity) and second that the government
keeps passing laws to protect people from their own stupidity.  This is a
HUGE pet peeve of mine, I don't want Big Brother to take away my herbal
remedies just because some yahoo didn't read the directions and died.  Yes,
I can see some cases where consumer protection might be needed, but not to
the extent it's going these days.  I keep looking for somewhere I'd like to
live that doesn't have this problem... I am smart, I take care of myself,
and I read directions and anything else I can get my hands on so I
understand my risks.  And yes, I do fight the battles when I need to.  I'm
TIRED!  And I'm very afraid that there are more of them than there are of
us.

-cthulhuette



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Jeff]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 06:20:50PM -0800, x wrote:
> >In actuality, we have this huge population of people who just don't give
> >a rat's something we can't talk about on the radio.  There are a lot of
> >Christians, mostly of one Protestant denomination or another, and there
> >are also a lot of atheists too, but they all just don't care, they don't
> >vote, they sit in front of their TV's and feel the world is just fine,
> >or are angry that the damn indians get to fish where they can't (sorry,
> >that one came up in class, and we have some outspoken bigots in there..
> >grrr).
> 
> Not all US people are bigoted small-minded idiots who think everything

Did I say All?  Nope.  Just most.  My back up to this is the voting
booth statistics.  BTW, I am a US citizen.  I've lived here all my life.
In fact, the first time I left the country was last weekend.

> should go their way, but those people make the news more often (and thus get
> more attention) than those of us just living our lives and trying to keep
> the government/ church/ special interest groups off our backs and out of our
> lives.  I see two (related?) parts of this - first that people don't take
> responsibility for their own actions (i.e. the burns caused by McD's coffee
> spilled in lap while driving was McD's fault for making the coffee so hot,
> always suing people for your own stupidity) and second that the government

I have to agree that this is a big one.  I like to blame the media for
it ;)  (just read that again, and before you reply, realize that I
*know* full well what I just said)

> keeps passing laws to protect people from their own stupidity.  This is a
> HUGE pet peeve of mine, I don't want Big Brother to take away my herbal

Same here.  My body, I'll mess with it as I see fit (which for me is
little to not at all for the unhealthy stuff).  Actually, what really
irks me is the crap that they let get on the store shelves, like softdrinks.
I know a bunch of you guys on the list probably drink coke and pepsi,
but to me the stuff is just poison (and no, I'm not allergic).

> remedies just because some yahoo didn't read the directions and died.  Yes,
> I can see some cases where consumer protection might be needed, but not to
> the extent it's going these days.  I keep looking for somewhere I'd like to
> live that doesn't have this problem... I am smart, I take care of myself,
> and I read directions and anything else I can get my hands on so I
> understand my risks.  And yes, I do fight the battles when I need to.  I'm

More power to you.  It is nice to know you guys are out there -- I know
I haven't been as active as I would like (however, in a little under two
weeks, I am going to register to vote.  I'll be turning 18, so the only
reason I haven't voted, is because of the ageist laws in this country,
and yes, that is how I see them).

> TIRED!  And I'm very afraid that there are more of them than there are of
> us.

I think that has crossed all of our minds, but y'know what, we've won in
the past.  *All* revolutions and progressive political actions are the
work of a minority pushing the majority to action.  Period, even the
American Revolution -- despite what the schools have taught in the
past.  They have won in the past, we can win again.

> 
> -cthulhuette

``C'Thulu For President, Why settle for the Lesser Evil?'' -- Seen on a
a T-Shirt down at the local gaming shop.

-- 
Jeff
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS/M/>P d-(pu) s+:- a17>? C++() L+++ UL@>$ P+ E--- W++@ N+ o? K++ w--- O? M 
V- PS+ PE(--)@ Y+@ PGP++ t+ 5 X++@ R++@ !tv@ b++ DI D- G e- h! r% y?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

My Public Key -- http://24.5.73.229/pubkey.txt 

 PGP signature

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Jeff]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 06:58:02PM -0800, Jeff wrote:
> > Not all US people are bigoted small-minded idiots who think everything
> 
> Did I say All?  Nope.  Just most.  My back up to this is the voting
> booth statistics.  BTW, I am a US citizen.  I've lived here all my life.
> In fact, the first time I left the country was last weekend.

Again, I need to proof read more... My point was that most of the US
citizenry just plain don't care about the laws or the government.

-- 
Jeff
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS/M/>P d-(pu) s+:- a17>? C++() L+++ UL@>$ P+ E--- W++@ N+ o? K++ w--- O? M 
V- PS+ PE(--)@ Y+@ PGP++ t+ 5 X++@ R++@ !tv@ b++ DI D- G e- h! r% y?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

My Public Key -- http://24.5.73.229/pubkey.txt 

 PGP signature

[issues] Re; Religion

[Mary Wood]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Rik says;

> I have this impression, rightly or wrongly, that the US is full
> of Christians, and right-wing ones at that. Plus it looks from
> here like they have a lot of power and that the US is getting
> progressively less liberal and more conservative.

As far as I know, Christians do make up a majority of the U.S.
population.  Conservative Christians are a minority, but are
a very loud one.  By such token, the silent majority gives them
a great deal of power.  Why they seem to be gaining power
when we, as a society, have more tools than ever to educate
and inform ourselves, is a puzzle to me.  Some places I look
to for clues:

 * We have women and minority groups that seem to revel
in perpetuating their own negative stereotypes (the astounding
popularity of the "Jerry Springer Show," "Who Wants to Marry
a Multi-Millionare," gangsta-rap, the list goes on).

 * We have an astounding amount of apathy in this nation; people
unwilling to educate and inform themselves and who don't
believe that they can make a difference ... so they don't even
try.

 * In an increasingly complex and chaotic society, some people
might tend to seek religion as a source of order.  Someone
correct me if I'm wrong, but while Christianity overall is not
growing in membership, I believe conservative Christianity is.

 * As someone else mentioned in an earlier post, Church
doctrine was created 1700 years ago, based on writings
even older than that.  This doctrine was designed to control
the Roman population of 300-400 CE, not 2000 CE (the same
outdatedness applies to parts of the U.S. constitution).
Despite laws of religious freedom in this country, Church
doctrine and the Bible are still used as guides for law and
leadership.  In short, in order for a society to progress, so
must it's doctrine.

Again, I'm just throwing out ideas as clues.  In the end, I'm
at a loss to explain why we seem to be regressing, not
progressing.

- - Mary; fearing for humanity

- --
"The dream dreams the dreamer"
 - Talaxian proverb


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 for non-commercial use 

Comment: Thumb your nose at Echelon ... use PGP.

iQA/AwUBOLdriRCClC0vfawSEQLCBACgy7//GH62+IFMVa8GS82MDSNms9wAoKDu
zm37dhfXxAn5O0rzHHBaQZHy
=pbjc
-END PGP SIGNATURE-




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Kelly Lynn Martin]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:30:30 -0800, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Again, I need to proof read more... My point was that most of the US
>citizenry just plain don't care about the laws or the government.

At least not until those laws land on their head.

Kelly


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re; Religion (Was YAFGA)

[Jeff]

On Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 01:17:33AM -0500, Kelly Lynn Martin wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:30:30 -0800, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>said:
> 
> >Again, I need to proof read more... My point was that most of the US
> >citizenry just plain don't care about the laws or the government.
> 
> At least not until those laws land on their head.

Not really, in this countries history, people will generally suffer
under the law.  It doesn't appear this way because very vocal minorities
step up to the plate and make big waves, it takes a lot of effort, but
in the end it is the vocal minority reacting to the brow beatings of the
laws and getting new laws made and bad laws revoked, not some silent
majority.  In the end, their votes usually come around to help a given
cause, but, there is a big but to this one, to top that off, throughout
the entire of my life, the vast majority of citizens ignore their right
to vote.  I think what we have on the list is a group that is more or
less the exception rather than the rule.

-- 
Jeff
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS/M/>P d-(pu) s+:- a17>? C++() L+++ UL@>$ P+ E--- W++@ N+ o? K++ w--- O? M 
V- PS+ PE(--)@ Y+@ PGP++ t+ 5 X++@ R++@ !tv@ b++ DI D- G e- h! r% y?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

My Public Key -- http://24.5.73.229/pubkey.txt 

 PGP signature

[issues] Re: [techtalk] Free FrameMaker beta for Linux

[Caitlyn Martin]

Hi, everyone,

This probably need to migrate to issues, but...

I think I need to point out that Adobe is one of the companies funding the
lobbying in favor of UCITA.  I don't often agree with RMS, but he is 100%
correct when he calls UCITA the greatest threat to Free / Open Source
software today.  So...  I would like to encourage everyone to treat Adobe
with the disdain that many people seem to reserve for Microsoft.  These
folks are out to kill the Linux / Open Source community.

Regards,
Cait



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Re: [techtalk] Free FrameMaker beta for Linux

[Robert Kiesling]

Caitlyn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think I need to point out that Adobe is one of the companies funding the
> lobbying in favor of UCITA.  I don't often agree with RMS, but he is 100%
> correct when he calls UCITA the greatest threat to Free / Open Source
> software today.  So...  I would like to encourage everyone to treat Adobe
> with the disdain that many people seem to reserve for Microsoft.  These
> folks are out to kill the Linux / Open Source community.

I'm not sure I agree with the FSF's opinion on UCITA.  I thought the
GPL was just another instance of a shrink-wrap license.  I also don't
think Adobe's necessarily out to undermine the Open Source community,
per se, but I think that standard business practice, which says one
has to make money, is often misguided in these instances, not
outrightly malicious.  And finally, I don't see what would be gained
by ignoring Adobe.  They've done a lot of great things, like making
Postscript into a standard language and advancing font technology.
It's been my experience that boycotts don't work very well anyway, so
there would be nothing gained by ignoring them.

Btw, the Framemaker betas are time limited.  Apologies that I 
forgot to mention it before.  

-- 

stop   http://www.mainmatter.com/


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org