Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
The problem is that some of those are incomplete, not z/OS, or not up to date. I'd like to see z/OS positioned to use the full range of current implementations of popular languages and interpreters, e.g., MoarVM, Qobe. What I'd really like is for IBM et al to work with CPAN et al to get z/OS changes into the official code bases. Running in a container is certainly useful, but addresses a different problem. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Timothy Sipples [sipp...@sg.ibm.com] Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020 Shmuel Metz wrote: >Now if they could just bring z/OS support for Kotlin, Lua, >Perl, Raku, Ruby and Rust up to date ... >Yes, bringing the port up to date includes first porting it ;-) Let's take these in order 1. As far as I know, as long as you use the Kotlin compiler to target a Java Runtime Environment (JRE) -- the typical/usual pattern -- your program will (also) run on z/OS. The basic command line compiler syntax is as follows, assuming Kotlin source code in the file hello.kt: kotlinc hello.kt -include-runtime -d hello.jar java -jar hello.jar There's also a potential future path that'll support Kotlin's LLVM target (since z/OS now supports LLVM), but that's speculative. 2. There's a z/OS build of Lua available here: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1nKNP4GyvVRODUkXu1ywIAoH4u7BdSjxSdtc9G7Wxk2MvWkEN9j0Oy-x-8l3-rQnmy1X1w39ORA6BC8MWoP1jX3BWYSyeXJvhCMD5w99Alza7MY2o4jR0B30n9uTrG8esQlkZaofUgwa_ETYgm65yhdpDvq4gvRdnBzmmRo3KK9zCdVCfDNojjmpBXbT5AkSfdQip-rt7HjxDpyRX_XcINCtGpW3YeH4V9p-O1ReDBAGy6iPTLHs4gtuYxiHqdrmpu5kYEdwHPZA4j8u2ctJ6N5lgsZIVoFyx4_pm0o-KEOV1SK9mtqooNKydOi5NFzOKHdEzZ9wh7fCD8xh1qCGgzazC3yya21X6nDwLWXcmwEXx8yAbZ8ISI9qqfq_vfdeTbH0umh9YtgXMvr8xNxqHgdTHqSOwtNxLlqibyLCubxx3w2ZRNL-o1oxXPn695zap/http%3A%2F%2Flua4z.com This is a circa 2014 build of Lua. Fundi Software created, maintains, and supports this distribution, so if you'd like something newer then feel free to inquire. 3. Rocket Software offers Perl for z/OS here (currently 5.24.0, which was released on May 8, 2016): https://secure-web.cisco.com/1alV14CozZPvgagoYhec5SZzxxXLY2QZW5Lh-LpUivj4Jo1Yq5pgL0CPhr2fdPSW5aEZJbt1QJYO8mF5VhTj2twyVeUn7SGtZ57viHj9fgJ_YsvpB-0FGX9flIi7tZNfOWX3ZcS3Z7W0xftx5OnRjpDj0jH1_LgYm-J5SCl7SPflDaPxV8FhhCTZB6zcnft4CvPu98JGTIE8_pc7Q2JwoI-URXN_Y7SSEssXlWQaXDA6q6ufqoFoIfZupV9PMGax0_VlYph5v55BUjmwacxKxfzzDUNErIRE234SCGK1AkqiNANQU3-aKZH69wwD2sJU4Pipx-HyZcKjoiNXr3XlvpQVulsA0FaLlOxmB993elgcNjvw-OPUxdSiR2M0WxPjUzhliP8cXRpXtqT64zFcqoAmwdh8JlgVN5hdV9-7xNAqGq0MJ6YiNY4YXMTKd3O7EIYQjNRtVE9ilXXblLYA7fw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rocketsoftware.com%2Fzos-open-source 4. For Raku, go grab the Rakudo distribution and target a JVM (--target=jar). Or use Rakudo.js to target Node.js (JavaScript) since Node.js is available for z/OS: https://www.ibm.com/products/sdk-nodejs-compiler-zos To my knowledge there's no difficulty with either path. 5. JRuby is available: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1_uMq3GLJ9HTGBlszWMSuyLJrFJw7L9oeYIJA-3of5gQzsfySNu6IgZvmoj4zQtpA9lI2PGp3gi37A0pcV_-akxGAtvM7PPvmhQaqI_HrU1F03gQZVn35JHKRfhbKi_akuMCHKl6Jxw0XTe5h_A8r_Yf4sJD7K_tifTzN0Wcd1oALF_Ulqx7eFUpt1QydCRax91Si77W-nrrfiCQCtHg1xIUOB4uuAsqT9R3a5uwlgxgIGMaAUHzdv4ZRNKZjHpw1Cq5lmWNznGvBkzF2kmDGzL4BrUDhQaZn8JLU3EiiHQpdipBeG5ZYp037SdHI34BSSZJKAAggOFiZg2I7-YzuxoBAdQbgos8gDrHFgcIRT3eZrCaAKWY6rB9UxqQ-KP9rb48Z_sbz6vv73PKDfCvySGgaZ2mOYe2xCzX7SfHNvWdj86FRFJbr83pY3-d_3q20LVdf4cpThZgRwCSBhTyCYg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jruby.org The best implementation of Ruby for z/OS is probably currently the Docker container image that runs in the z/OS Container Extensions: https://secure-web.cisco.com/183dflPtktXM2fwPPw_eirxf06lcUK0v_jn8pu39cKPKdfWNrFJXD3y_qQia_gjA1OlKuSGjQw07N1njqjr0y0w5EjkVpYZkdgcOaWwlsrvrIXKuP6mxFCq-yjuJf93g9B-gj1bWRZFS_8H0E93go7cFPI893PGM8BCid_gJIeHE-T4icFYbAVav4ldhfnYw4l9VsHjT3ktOKdR6c0eMG-AOCvbkDDKzlKsgJRtUtO1pkSucSK-u2OWSR2f8Wy4RSZiwTR5ATSmZdZxiSVElFJoUpyzzfV_aL1ptFI2o-pb4lZT4Jh1rLFC2xBVuN46hYBuLTTm7OiW2G3bMkPvBFEJhJ84UQLMwPlIHxdA4aGoOXyXRbMITyVdgjuupQCn_OI5pkEUyah5k1PI5WawbD9tA8H_Le3789K7VQHINq48UyoaaS9zn8nmZTeAfxuF8qEtCvP8UhkBeuLiL9595M0w/https%3A%2F%2Fhub.docker.com%2F_%2Fruby 6. Rust will need LLVM, now available on z/OS. However, you can already compile and run Rust code via the z/OS Container Extensions. - - - - - - - - - - Timothy Sipples I.T. Architect Executive Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions IBM Z & LinuxONE - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instruct
Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a similar parody on our own times. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020 For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was so twisted. Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020 I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have seen it, as far as I can tell. The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, either. Too many things can go wrong. But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take over saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My favorite show, ‘Person of Interest’. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian suggests why that may be an even worse idea. Joel C Ewing On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a > similar parody on our own times. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming > language of 2020 > > For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads the > pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . " (War > Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was so > twisted. > > Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Bob Bridges > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming > language of 2020 > > I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have seen > it, as far as I can tell. > > The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is that no > programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw away the Stop > button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, either. Too many > things can go wrong. > > But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we finally > develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little butts shot > down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- describes the > behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. -David Brin in > a 1998 on-line interview */ > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of scott Ford > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 > > Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, > > Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take over > saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My favorite show, > ‘Person of Interest’. > -- > > This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If > the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized > representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail > and delete the message and any attachments from your system. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
IGDSMSxx setting PDSE_VERSION(2)
Hello, on our new z/OS V2.4 we plan to set IGDSMSxx parameter PDSE_VERSION(2) to have V2 PDSEs as default. Therefore I would like to know, if there are any known issues out there, which are reason for don't do this setting. Thanks in advance for any hints. Kind regards Juergen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the future of AI. a bit of Isaac Asimov Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to > try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all > of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of > any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with > incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware > doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a > certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown > consequences. > There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand > and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines > inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. > Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a > similar parody on our own times. > > > > > > -- > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > programming language of 2020 > > > > For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads > the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . > " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was > so twisted. > > > > Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > > > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Bob Bridges > > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > programming language of 2020 > > > > I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have > seen it, as far as I can tell. > > > > The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is > that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw > away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, > either. Too many things can go wrong. > > > > But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. > > > > --- > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > > > /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we > finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little > butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- > describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. > -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] > On Behalf Of scott Ford > > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 > > > > Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, > > > > Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take over > saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My favorite show, > ‘Person of Interest’. > > -- > > > > This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. > If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized > representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by > e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > -- > Joel C. Ewing
Re: IGDSMSxx setting PDSE_VERSION(2)
If you have done a FIXCAT on the various PDSE categories, there should't be a problem.I held off implementing V2 on z/OS V2R3 to avoid OA56730 (GDG extended and orphan generations), but it looks like that is integral to V2R4. David -Original Message- From: Juergen Kehr To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Mon, May 11, 2020 9:42 am Subject: IGDSMSxx setting PDSE_VERSION(2) Hello, on our new z/OS V2.4 we plan to set IGDSMSxx parameter PDSE_VERSION(2) to have V2 PDSEs as default. Therefore I would like to know, if there are any known issues out there, which are reason for don't do this setting. Thanks in advance for any hints. Kind regards Juergen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
Seymour, Oh yes sir On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:54 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a > similar parody on our own times. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming > language of 2020 > > For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads the > pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . " > (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was > so twisted. > > Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Bob Bridges > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming > language of 2020 > > I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have > seen it, as far as I can tell. > > The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is that > no programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw away the > Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, either. > Too many things can go wrong. > > But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we > finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little > butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- > describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. > -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of scott Ford > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 > > Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, > > Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take over > saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My favorite show, > ‘Person of Interest’. > -- > > This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. > If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized > representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by > e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
Elect a clown get a circus On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:08 AM scott Ford wrote: > Seymour, > > Oh yes sir > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:54 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a >> similar parody on our own times. >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >> of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >> >> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads the >> pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . " >> (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was >> so twisted. >> >> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >> >> Peter >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf >> Of Bob Bridges >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >> >> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have >> seen it, as far as I can tell. >> >> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is >> that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw >> away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, >> either. Too many things can go wrong. >> >> But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we >> finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little >> butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- >> describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. >> -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of scott Ford >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 >> >> Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, >> >> Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take over >> saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My favorite show, >> ‘Person of Interest’. >> -- >> >> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the >> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. >> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized >> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any >> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have >> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. >> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. Joel C Ewing On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > future of AI. > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > Scott > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to >> try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all >> of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of >> any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with >> incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware >> doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a >> certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown >> consequences. >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand >> and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines >> inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. >> Joel C Ewing >> >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a >> similar parody on our own times. >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was >> so twisted. >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have >> seen it, as far as I can tell. >>> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is >> that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then throw >> away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine he built, >> either. Too many things can go wrong. >>> But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. >>> >>> --- >>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 >>> >>> /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we >> finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery little >> butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if true! -- >> describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our world. >> -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of scott Ford >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 >>> >>> Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, >>> >>> Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian co
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, influence, etc.). There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software developers who implement the code for the three laws. Lionel B. Dyck < Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. Joel C Ewing On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > future of AI. > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > Scott > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with >> unknown consequences. >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister >> reading E.M. >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. >> Joel C Ewing >> >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe >>> for a >> similar parody on our own times. >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" >>> leads >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because >> it was so twisted. >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people >>> have >> seen it, as far as I can tell. >>> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - >>> is >> that no programmer in the world would make s
Re: [External] Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
Can be said for both sides of the spectrum. This is a mainframe forum, not a political one. Let's keep it that way. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020 Elect a clown get a circus On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:08 AM scott Ford wrote: > Seymour, > > Oh yes sir > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:54 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe >> for a similar parody on our own times. >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >> >> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . " >> (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it >> was so twisted. >> >> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >> >> Peter >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >> >> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people >> have seen it, as far as I can tell. >> >> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is >> that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then >> throw away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine >> he built, either. Too many things can go wrong. >> >> But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we >> finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery >> little butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if >> true! -- describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors to our >> world. >> -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] >> On Behalf Of scott Ford >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 >> >> Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, >> >> Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take >> over saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My >> favorite show, ‘Person of Interest’. >> -- >> >> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the >> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. >> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an >> authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby >> notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly >> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please >> notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments >> from your system. >> >> >> - >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >> IBM-MAIN >> >> - >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO >> IBM-MAIN >> > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscrib
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Joel, I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter stupidity. Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject Sensitive Dysphoria ). I have both ... Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:22 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and > that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, > influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what > you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans > as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific > recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the > opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived > offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to > humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was > >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers > >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the > >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something > >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the > >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software > >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with > >> unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to > >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse > >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >> Joel C Ewing > >> > >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe > >>> for a > >> similar parody on our own times. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > >>> > >>> > >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" > >>> leads > >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . > . . > >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because > >> it was so twisted. > >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > >>> > >>> Peter > >>> > >>> -Original Message
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
For me, my blood type is B+, and I tend to look on the positive side of things - including giving most the benefit of the doubt and hoping for the best. Sadly my short/long term memory failures have not erased lessons learned from granting trust when it shouldn't have been granted. Enough said - may y'all be safe, healthy, and blessed. During challenging times we need each other in many different ways and that includes looking out to prevent others from being taken advantage of if we have the ability to do so. Lionel B. Dyck < Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... Joel, I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter stupidity. Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject Sensitive Dysphoria ). I have both ... Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:22 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests > and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in > money, influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John > Wooden > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when > I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of > robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. > Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a > robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when > there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one > group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of > "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were > given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that > they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a > menace to humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about > > the future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. > >> was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and > >> non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting > >> lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous > >> machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all > >> know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably > >> will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is > >> guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about > >> society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge > >> to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total > >> collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my > >> oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >> Joel C Ewing > >> > >> On 5
Re: [External] Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
All, I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter stupidity. Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject Sensitive Dysphoria ). I have both ... On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:48 AM Pommier, Rex wrote: > Can be said for both sides of the spectrum. This is a mainframe forum, > not a political one. Let's keep it that way. > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of scott Ford > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:09 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [External] Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > programming language of 2020 > > Elect a clown get a circus > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:08 AM scott Ford wrote: > > > Seymour, > > > > Oh yes sir > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:54 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > > >> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe > >> for a similar parody on our own times. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > >> > >> > >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >> > >> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads > >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . > . . " > >> (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it > >> was so twisted. > >> > >> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > >> > >> Peter > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges > >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >> > >> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people > >> have seen it, as far as I can tell. > >> > >> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - is > >> that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then > >> throw away the Stop button. No engineer would do that with a machine > >> he built, either. Too many things can go wrong. > >> > >> But a fun movie, if you can ignore that. > >> > >> --- > >> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > >> > >> /* The only thing UFO aliens deserve is to be ignored...and when we > >> finally develop the right missiles, to have their smug, silvery > >> little butts shot down. Not a single reported UFO sighting -- if > >> true! -- describes the behavior of decent, polite, honorable visitors > to our world. > >> -David Brin in a 1998 on-line interview */ > >> > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] > >> On Behalf Of scott Ford > >> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:38 > >> > >> Like the 1970s flick , ‘Colossus , The Forbin Project’, > >> > >> Colossus and American computer and Guardian a Russian computer take > >> over saying ‘ Colossus and Guardian we are one’, or better yet My > >> favorite show, ‘Person of Interest’. > >> -- > >> > >> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the > >> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and > confidential. > >> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an > >> authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby > >> notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly > >> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please > >> notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any > attachments from your system. > >> > >> > >> - > >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > >> IBM-MAIN > >> > >> - > >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > >> IBM-MAIN > >> > > -- > > Scott Ford > > IDMWORKS > > z/OS Development > > > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from > disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is > not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsi
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Lionel, Out of respect for all, oh yes me too...I have made mistakes like enough one. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:54 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > For me, my blood type is B+, and I tend to look on the positive side of > things - including giving most the benefit of the doubt and hoping for the > best. Sadly my short/long term memory failures have not erased lessons > learned from granting trust when it shouldn't have been granted. > > Enough said - may y'all be safe, healthy, and blessed. During challenging > times we need each other in many different ways and that includes looking > out to prevent others from being taken advantage of if we have the ability > to do so. > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what > you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of scott Ford > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:51 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > Joel, > > I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter > stupidity. > Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong > feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject > Sensitive Dysphoria ). > I have both ... > > Scott > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:22 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > > > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests > > and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in > > money, influence, etc.). > > > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > > > > Lionel B. Dyck < > > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com > > > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is > > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John > > Wooden > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > > Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing > > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when > > I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of > > robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. > > Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a > > robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when > > there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one > > group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of > "protecting" > > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > > scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were > > given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that > > they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? > > > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a > > menace to humanity. > > Joel C Ewing > > > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about > > > the future of AI. > > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. > > >> was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and > > >> non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting > > >> lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous > > >> machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all > > >> know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably > > >> will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is > > >> guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. > > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about > > >> society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge > > >> to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total > > >> collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my > > >> oldest sister > > reading E.M. > > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > > >> po
Re: FW: zOSMF
Steve, What’s the RC=2816 ? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:32 PM Steve Beaver wrote: > Carmen said - make sure the OMVS segment in RACF home directory exists > > > > that was it mostly > > > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > Now I’m getting a BUNCH of > > > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:58 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > Nor is Academia. If anything, such ineptitude is more common in the > private sector. Morton-Thiokol. Boeing. Perkin-Elmer. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Kirk Wolf [k...@dovetail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:02 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/13_dUZjSXiW4502OI3_iUobjB67KaxPIaxYDgXjEyzmGl1CBAkFMZZRuO-3sHVKNfOsHPuj-xBNixpbcgXaATL04rDbIAI49t5m4zUcbDMptUu-OeEFKfe2F7Wof60cWetuVPS1CBAcRzrXCJ5DkSiaXEDzlqzgLRTh2SiBpBnTKNfr_kW52YmxjM9pgcTKAzW79-5-ocX6Af8KsWFZKNKlqwKH59WZOIpo8HomN39d95h8Ju-09pcgJbN4KoU_f20FLwR8nHHncaOqsKan8uXx8ATS1ENhaoXM-HZi_cHkS1guFwpmWWIaAwSSEoSWnRwFmffg4MON-bkNXIHBIUuJPB1Q7On-E1zUc4AIjfLCJho6zHPMVtyWtqL6GPwBZ2IsTpgsbIh8iIJq50cTok-enhAsJlE_PKM35BSZ9Y9gGutpWqPaBnxLJBqu1x_wrF/https%3A%2F%2Flockdownsceptics.org%2Fcode-review-of-fergusons-model%2F > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > Kirk Wolf > Dovetailed Technologies > > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1VneLcEjo-fhdKw5y_gqhccmM75JFhQGYOP-UVsuJad7w_9opIsOpSMYM86wVKS5oteIm7yvG6dZcHY1qcjVNwR9xpHwaKIbEP8YseR12FFeuvDHeFnt9kW2FXR4e6uQVdYqVGbCl7wzUZXLI6f5INvLSqKPFb7Vrx0ehTLP3q2VVWMWn0cF8m6d4LG4qOuzIWOLkFJIjDcIw83mAepnLZy06mT8vQf1s5bVRbaFe06zZlRyx5o0Hd0khg4QDmLukMy5bgzdqhjdpYJYqJQYmudTDfTfoSsuP7BUzQkwvstLw3km-O-X1JOpp3hATQNcatyLQ_Kx7XaAk1qCgJNIrNlOVU7GcySEWuPlufBE8EsIA8VDB8Idi-UeAuPm03XI_EznD8UOhURENg1tnhD-QccVyKz5ycNajwbPdv4nHicGDera-YUXz9rn856r0rn3j/http%3A%2F%2Fdovetail.com > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Look up the story "I, Robot". From memory, I believe it is also an Isaac Asimov story -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. Joel C Ewing On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > future of AI. > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > Scott > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with >> unknown consequences. >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister >> reading E.M. >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. >> Joel C Ewing >> >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe >>> for a >> similar parody on our own times. >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason >>> .gmu.edu%2F~smetz3&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C87d9 >>> 89082f374f96610c08d7f5be19cc%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0% >>> 7C0%7C637248069162560622&sdata=ZnMqmL1CJJ4Ndpc9HLcl%2FYWR%2FpnSo >>> zSoLcU13aVX8NI%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" >>> leads >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because >> it was so twisted. >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people >>> have >> seen it, as far as I can tell. >>> The only problem I have with that movie - well, the main problem - >>> is >> that no programmer in the world would make such a system and then >> throw away the Stop button. No enginee
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Alan, Yes sir, ‘I Robot’ is great story. Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:10 PM Allan Staller wrote: > Look up the story "I, Robot". From memory, I believe it is also an Isaac > Asimov story > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust > the sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing > email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans > as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific > recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the > opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived > offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to > humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was > >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers > >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the > >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something > >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the > >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software > >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with > >> unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to > >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse > >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >> Joel C Ewing > >> > >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe > >>> for a > >> similar parody on our own times. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > >>> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason > >>> .gmu.edu%2F~smetz3&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C87d9 > >>> 89082f374f96610c08d7f5be19cc%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0% > >>> 7C0%7C637248069162560622&sdata=ZnMqmL1CJJ4Ndpc9HLcl%2FYWR%2FpnSo > >>> zSoLcU13aVX8NI%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" > >>> leads > >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . > . . > >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because > >> it was so twisted. > >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? > >>> > >>> Peter > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges > >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >>> I've alwa
Re: FW: zOSMF
B00 On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:59 scott Ford wrote: > Steve, > > What’s the RC=2816 ? > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:32 PM Steve Beaver wrote: > > > Carmen said - make sure the OMVS segment in RACF home directory exists > > > > > > > > that was it mostly > > > > > > > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > > Now I’m getting a BUNCH of > > > > > > > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > > > > > > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
I'll cheerfully leave political partisanship aside. But if I may attribute this equally to both sides (and thus avoid partisanship), I'm with Joel ~and~ Lionel on this. Most folks who misuse their power start out, at least, in hopes of doing good. What I'm saying is that although we value altruism, I don't trust even altruists in the matter of exercising power, especially when in pursuit of The Good of Humanity. Doesn't mean we won't keep building robots. Doesn't even mean we shouldn't. But even altruists can be villains. Ultron and Colossus both wanted to save the world, after all. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The historian Macaulay famously said that the Puritans opposed bearbaiting not because it gave pain to the bears but because it gave pleasure to the spectators. The Puritans were right: Some pleasures are contemptible because they are coarsening. They are not merely private vices, they have public consequences in driving the culture's downward spiral. -George Will, "The challenge of thinking lower", 2001-06-22 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lionel B Dyck Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:22 Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, influence, etc.). There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software developers who implement the code for the three laws. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. --- On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > future of AI. > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > --- On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with >> unknown consequences. >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister >> reading E.M. >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >>> >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people >>> have seen it, as far as I can tell. The only problem I have with >>> that movie - well, the main problem - is that no programmer in the >>> world would make such a system and then throw away the Stop button. >>> No engineer would do that with a machine he built, either. Too many >>> things can go wrong. But a fun movie, if you can ignore that.
Re: FW: zOSMF
It’s a problem with the Liberty zFS and starting all the Plugins -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:59 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: zOSMF Steve, What’s the RC=2816 ? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:32 PM Steve Beaver wrote: > Carmen said - make sure the OMVS segment in RACF home directory exists > > > > that was it mostly > > > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > Now I’m getting a BUNCH of > > > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
An even better story ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1 Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:31 AM Bob Bridges wrote: > I'll cheerfully leave political partisanship aside. But if I may > attribute this equally to both sides (and thus avoid partisanship), I'm > with Joel ~and~ Lionel on this. Most folks who misuse their power start > out, at least, in hopes of doing good. What I'm saying is that although we > value altruism, I don't trust even altruists in the matter of exercising > power, especially when in pursuit of The Good of Humanity. > > Doesn't mean we won't keep building robots. Doesn't even mean we > shouldn't. But even altruists can be villains. Ultron and Colossus both > wanted to save the world, after all. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* The historian Macaulay famously said that the Puritans opposed > bearbaiting not because it gave pain to the bears but because it gave > pleasure to the spectators. The Puritans were right: Some pleasures are > contemptible because they are coarsening. They are not merely private > vices, they have public consequences in driving the culture's downward > spiral. -George Will, "The challenge of thinking lower", 2001-06-22 */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Lionel B Dyck > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:22 > > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and > that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, > influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans > as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific > recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the > opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived > offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to > humanity. > > --- On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > --- On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing > wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was > >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers > >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the > >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something > >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the > >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software > >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with > >> unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to > >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse > >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: Bob Bridges > >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM > >>> > >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people > >>> have seen it, as far as I can tell. The only problem I have with > >>> that movie
Re: FW: zOSMF
Steve, Good you found it.. Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM Steve Beaver wrote: > It’s a problem with the Liberty zFS and starting all the Plugins > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of scott Ford > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:59 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: FW: zOSMF > > Steve, > > What’s the RC=2816 ? > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:32 PM Steve Beaver wrote: > > > Carmen said - make sure the OMVS segment in RACF home directory exists > > > > > > > > that was it mostly > > > > > > > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > > Now I’m getting a BUNCH of > > > > > > > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > > > > > > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR19 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC=0001 > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR12 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR14 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR15 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR16 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR17 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR18 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR13 STEP=STEP1PGM=BPXPRFC CC= > > JOB=IZUSVR11 STEP=*OMVSEX PGM=BPXPRECP CC= > > $HASP395 IZUSVR1 ENDED - RC=2816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Joe, Yeah I read it, it’s a great book along with “The Martian”, couldn’t put the Martian down. Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Joe Monk wrote: > An even better story ... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1 > > Joe > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:31 AM Bob Bridges > wrote: > > > I'll cheerfully leave political partisanship aside. But if I may > > attribute this equally to both sides (and thus avoid partisanship), I'm > > with Joel ~and~ Lionel on this. Most folks who misuse their power start > > out, at least, in hopes of doing good. What I'm saying is that although > we > > value altruism, I don't trust even altruists in the matter of exercising > > power, especially when in pursuit of The Good of Humanity. > > > > Doesn't mean we won't keep building robots. Doesn't even mean we > > shouldn't. But even altruists can be villains. Ultron and Colossus both > > wanted to save the world, after all. > > > > --- > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > > > /* The historian Macaulay famously said that the Puritans opposed > > bearbaiting not because it gave pain to the bears but because it gave > > pleasure to the spectators. The Puritans were right: Some pleasures are > > contemptible because they are coarsening. They are not merely private > > vices, they have public consequences in driving the culture's downward > > spiral. -George Will, "The challenge of thinking lower", 2001-06-22 */ > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Lionel B Dyck > > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:22 > > > > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests > and > > that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, > > influence, etc.). > > > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > > Of Joel C. Ewing > > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > > > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of > humans > > as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > scientific > > recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the > > opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived > > offered some short-term political advantage? > > > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace > to > > humanity. > > > > --- On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > > future of AI. > > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > > > --- On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing > > wrote: > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was > > >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers > > >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the > > >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something > > >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the > > >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software > > >> above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with > > >> unknown consequences. > > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > > >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to > > >> understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse > > >> when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister > > reading E.M. > > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk > lethal > > >> machine may be with another lethal ma
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Hi Joe, You beat me to it! Regards, David On 2020-05-11 12:57, Joe Monk wrote: An even better story ... https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe_Adolescence_of_P-1&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca75858d79d87417845d108d7f5cc8165%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637248130998340065&sdata=NhAxRmAC4HmPk73MgwB1TITh%2BMtPZ5Y3a5hDvhnSV0Y%3D&reserved=0 Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:31 AM Bob Bridges wrote: I'll cheerfully leave political partisanship aside. But if I may attribute this equally to both sides (and thus avoid partisanship), I'm with Joel ~and~ Lionel on this. Most folks who misuse their power start out, at least, in hopes of doing good. What I'm saying is that although we value altruism, I don't trust even altruists in the matter of exercising power, especially when in pursuit of The Good of Humanity. Doesn't mean we won't keep building robots. Doesn't even mean we shouldn't. But even altruists can be villains. Ultron and Colossus both wanted to save the world, after all. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The historian Macaulay famously said that the Puritans opposed bearbaiting not because it gave pain to the bears but because it gave pleasure to the spectators. The Puritans were right: Some pleasures are contemptible because they are coarsening. They are not merely private vices, they have public consequences in driving the culture's downward spiral. -George Will, "The challenge of thinking lower", 2001-06-22 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lionel B Dyck Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:22 Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, influence, etc.). There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software developers who implement the code for the three laws. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. --- On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the future of AI. a bit of Isaac Asimov --- On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian suggests why that may be an even worse idea. -Original Message- From: Bob Bridges Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have seen it, as f
Re: ispf save / restore swapbar ?
On 5/5/2020 12:06 PM, Mike Stramba wrote: Is there a way to save the current swapbar contents, and restore it on next logon ? Mike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Look up ZSTART. If you want to make it different every time, you'll have your hands full. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IGDSMSxx setting PDSE_VERSION(2)
On 5/11/2020 9:42 AM, Juergen Kehr wrote: Hello, on our new z/OS V2.4 we plan to set IGDSMSxx parameter PDSE_VERSION(2) to have V2 PDSEs as default. Therefore I would like to know, if there are any known issues out there, which are reason for don't do this setting. Thanks in advance for any hints. Kind regards Juergen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN As long as you don't want to take advantage of going past 15.7M lines in a member, you should be OK. Various pieces of z/OS still don't support that (like 5 years later). Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
>From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to little, if >any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is there correct >file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational documentation? Is >there correct program documentation? Are the programs documented externally >(this is what this program does) and internally (explaining in excruciating >detail every action taken). Have standards been established and strictly >followed? Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support the code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal program documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify everything. This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the poor souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. They pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, that was good enough before. Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. Yet, I've seen this occur way too often. Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
Hi I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the terminal can be found at [2]. Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. -Alex [1] https://github.com/lowobservable/oec [2] https://ahuemer.xx.vu/volatile/2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU/ [3] https://github.com/lowobservable/coax/blob/protocol/protocol/protocol.md -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
[Default] On 11 May 2020 10:57:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main poodles...@sbcglobal.net (Dan at Poodles) wrote: In addition to documentation is there a good set of test data and is it kept current? One of my biggest problems in doing applications upgrade was figuring out how to test the dang thing with 20 sets of files that had to match. Clark Morris >From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to little, if >any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is there correct >file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational documentation? Is >there correct program documentation? Are the programs documented externally >(this is what this program does) and internally (explaining in excruciating >detail every action taken). Have standards been established and strictly >followed? > >Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support the >code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal program >documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and >assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify >everything. > >This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor >management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under >budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the poor >souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. They >pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, that was >good enough before. > >Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. Yet, >I've seen this occur way too often. > >Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely >irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. > >-Original Message- >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On >Behalf Of scott Ford >Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > >Seymour, > >Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer >languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the >plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it >works IMHO.. > >Scott > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
You both hit ,the nail on the head Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:29 PM Clark Morris wrote: > [Default] On 11 May 2020 10:57:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main > poodles...@sbcglobal.net (Dan at Poodles) wrote: > > In addition to documentation is there a good set of test data and is > it kept current? One of my biggest problems in doing applications > upgrade was figuring out how to test the dang thing with 20 sets of > files that had to match. > > Clark Morris > >From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to > little, if any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is > there correct file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational > documentation? Is there correct program documentation? Are the programs > documented externally (this is what this program does) and internally > (explaining in excruciating detail every action taken). Have standards > been established and strictly followed? > > > >Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support > the code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal > program documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and > assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify > everything. > > > >This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor > management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under > budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the > poor souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. > They pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, > that was good enough before. > > > >Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. > Yet, I've seen this occur way too often. > > > >Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely > irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. > > > >-Original Message- > >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of scott Ford > >Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM > >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > > > >Seymour, > > > >Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel > computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , > work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in > NYC ...it works IMHO.. > > > >Scott > > > >-- > >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
Hi Alex I’m familiar with SNA DFT and in a previous life released several products that utilized it. I’ll look back at some old docs I have to see if there is anything worth while sending you. As I said we did 2 products. One was called the “Port-Xpander” and basically looked like a DFT Terminal on one side (coax attached to a 31 or 3274) and had five coax outputs that connected to 3270 cut terminals. It was used to expand the port capacity of a 3174 from 32 ports up to 160 ports. The second product was called “SyncLink” and it coax attached to a 3174 mux port and looked like 8 DFT devices on the input side. The output side was multiple SDLC lines that connected to down stream PU2 devices. It was in effect a poor mans 3745. Did not require NCP but to remote PU2 devices it looked like a 3745. Let me see what I can dig up from the old dusty storage area Ken Kenneth A. Bloom CEO Avenir Technologies Inc /d/b/a Visara International 203-984-2235 bl...@visara.com www.visara.com > On May 11, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Alexander Huemer wrote: > > Hi > > I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email > thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. > Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have > built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal > on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the > terminal can be found at [2]. > > Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so > called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT > (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) > CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the > functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. > > Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides > what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? > > What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the > communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. > > -Alex > > [1] https://github.com/lowobservable/oec > [2] https://ahuemer.xx.vu/volatile/2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU/ > [3] https://github.com/lowobservable/coax/blob/protocol/protocol/protocol.md > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Developerworks is gone!
[Default] On 7 May 2020 19:02:28 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main che...@watsonwalker.com (Cheryl Watson Walker) wrote: >Hi all, > > > >We'll I'm a little embarrassed. I was just told offline about a link that >Lionel Dyck posted here last October that described the coming of the calamity >that just occurred - https://developer.ibm.com/dw-connections-sunset-faq/. (As >a side note the creators of that FAQ werent even kind enough to create hot >links for all of the other portals. Web pages and hot links arent all that >difficult people!) The FAQ said that owners of content on DeveloperWorks could >move their content to other locations by the end of March. This is assuming >that they were still employed by IBM and had the time to move the content. Of >course, IBM could not provide them with the original content. > Does IBM somewhere have a backup of the Developer Works files? They did make backups, didn't they? Profs backups caught Ollie North. Clark Morris > >We had posted almost 100 links in our Tuning Letter to useful material on >DeveloperWorks and now none of them work. It will take time, but I hope to go >through all of our links and reach out to the authors to find where they are >now posting items. > > > >So I went to the new website - https://www.ibm.com/community/, signed up, and >started looking at it. With the optional portals listed in the FAQ and this >new community website, it just seems like IBM wants to remove as much >technical information as possible and replace it with marketing. If anyone >knows how to search the new community website, please let me know. If Im not >ready to buy a product, the community is not doing anything for me. > > > >P.S. Aled thanks for your post. I have always had the highest respect for >Timothy and Mark, and I really appreciate how much they support the customers. > > > >Still a little bitter about the deletions > >Cheryl > > > >-Original Message- >From: Cheryl Watson >Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:39 PM >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >Cc: Cheryl Watson >Subject: IBM Developerworks is gone! > > > >Hi all, > > > >Remember when IBM went through and deleted from their websites what they >considered "old" manuals and documentation? Well, they just did it again! >They've removed all the DeveloperWorks articles that have provided such >excellent information since its creation. And these aren't just OLD articles. >Even a link from three months ago is gone. All references to DeveloperWorks >are now directed to a nothing site. The DeveloperWorks website contained >amazing articles from some of the top developers in their fields, many of whom >are no longer still working at IBM. We understand that IBM "furloughed" them, >but they don't have to furlough their ideas. > > > >I'm pleading with all of you who work for a large IBM customer to ask your >management to tell IBM to stop this idiotic practice. There is NO reason to >delete valuable information. > > > >If this is due to marketing wanting a new image, then they have no idea what >image they're creating. > > > >Please do this for all of us! > > > >All my best, > > > >Cheryl Watson > >Watson & Walker, Inc. > > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
> Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) CUT variant. I doubt it. Certainly all of these are DFT. • IBM 3179 G Color Graphic Display Station • IBM 3192 G Color Graphics Display Station • IBM 3193 Display Station • IBM 3194 Display Terminal • IBM 3290 Information Panel • IBM 3270 Personal Computer. Does anybody know whether any of the InfoWindow displays are CUT, and, if so, which? I suspect that it will be easier to modify, e.g., x3270 to support the 3290 features than to implement DFT without help from IBM, but bitsavers does have some 3174 and 3274 CE manuals, and maybe one of them has what you need. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Alexander Huemer [alexander.hue...@xx.vu] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 2:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT Hi I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the terminal can be found at [2]. Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. -Alex [1] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1NnRTMD_PTNE56hcPN3Zoil25kvZDUUK_aipLBMH0L1wILqqABd8VqLfLufezSPeE_Fl4x00j7t4NfyMBkNjiG9PZJVFzcisGkVw2zDksozehbGrT1dQrE0Ab77RISHAxIQOxnUnRrTtoTrsSrrPsu0jB_gX0Wu7yY3WQm4OWspA270WOpKiWNPsOuRmstQQpzBMsjKSh2liu3id4kuAg3n_Anb4G2bBwbb4hvDUDYwgDt6oVZYjuuMmpgqXD6BoDKPz8h13B3FNewEGGG-ZmkWrk8Ij2IMQB2BwK-56UDvG1tFuhjaZRmy8w4zpndnP-EtTI3GVvakjoOfX9TfnAX8Jkf44VijzUU9DY-2nBQHJtCnhDUEwfezo4317R__cJdwXO34VGrBQVzqETM7RjUNDyRR0uqgmmjgiazA_-Er6FIi6yH2m1euIXZa34S3xhYqqtFwfDa_ElLFDmsmOI2Q/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Foec [2] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1pSKlPn7aH5BVsfyddjr3HyN_XBjHGssIdgXlLr5CxccG7hAYb_O5qPKiIdRoApG1elM2Wd9QHZu8E-Sc0Xs6zVv0qISCsksY98nFPIe4uoRAieXyzi8hgly4lpVu7klwwS9g8wH1b4FfatJ0HsF1a8dfDnI-6l3OxLz3Jy338dAlfK2uq6u0v4C4M0d81GHudLtr_VFDQylLJhpec2y2uLiLbGwjSHUH35bLwEyjNd3ieBfIBxmlVuhlb3l46ibyiWGouVr4Ik0Gv2xmSL7s7rC35o3kYxwRawP7KL4ODxWKDeikbWKj0j2V8_T4TKfXlwLvH-jYtZ5zOnLAg4DNyo6HSLYXAp0Zv235Je698lh_uza4HemJsGDS2-uZNyNE1cuP43_FPksOmUrw6l7Hb2EzSd_Dthu4mEIpdYKZ3QVTjXl6NCaXqVR0EOhzTiAG/https%3A%2F%2Fahuemer.xx.vu%2Fvolatile%2F2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU%2F [3] https://secure-web.cisco.com/1lc47FG678Pn52RvDToQE0dXvwOnbKbGRbN6-Isvy6vMB2s_1yJBYWRZduvax-epmacIYbcnUCmIDLFWsbAlx_fWds6f40LanIVAYPxdce1BHtR1n3vOrRj5HYg2a7X0OUGDmyQo5lbNDPJe4_1ZWQef0LNTjfaSRCzPpj3tZII47tuuxs28-fTaGV4MDSgtO9jaD-f7yC5zLnri6JD3NrMLNk_lXBXHB_Hk3br48XLWLuwVAaggwCCR45N5Hu_758ek0a2pzvPqte89y2l8WKPiWo5YcyZ5zBqkVcMMN8_c2GGaFmeCl8oAT8xZPna0HAe9_wOfiXZhazeqZNXgkLTtp5SIkDA-w89OFkBUEiZ7zDJOBlPKrQImvQ80P_BNvWDFPNOV4FkQzE23fVo7OCcs8cz0F3DWBQ9Vv8LZrlyYfNFgscrOK-BreBPLoDCZPagTbpFJQBCNrgWM8LyVDwQ/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Fcoax%2Fblob%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol.md -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Developerworks is gone!
Some of us took our own backups and re-hosted them... Cheers, Martin Martin Packer zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM +44-7802-245-584 email: martin_pac...@uk.ibm.com Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker Blog: https://mainframeperformancetopics.com Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/or https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2 Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA From: Clark Morris To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date: 11/05/2020 20:09 Subject:[EXTERNAL] Re: IBM Developerworks is gone! Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List [Default] On 7 May 2020 19:02:28 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main che...@watsonwalker.com (Cheryl Watson Walker) wrote: >Hi all, > > > >We'll I'm a little embarrassed. I was just told offline about a link that Lionel Dyck posted here last October that described the coming of the calamity that just occurred - https://developer.ibm.com/dw-connections-sunset-faq/. (As a side note – the creators of that FAQ weren’t even kind enough to create hot links for all of the other portals. Web pages and hot links aren’t all that difficult people!) The FAQ said that owners of content on DeveloperWorks could move their content to other locations by the end of March. This is assuming that they were still employed by IBM and had the time to move the content. Of course, IBM could not provide them with the original content. > Does IBM somewhere have a backup of the Developer Works files? They did make backups, didn't they? Profs backups caught Ollie North. Clark Morris > >We had posted almost 100 links in our Tuning Letter to useful material on DeveloperWorks and now none of them work. It will take time, but I hope to go through all of our links and reach out to the authors to find where they are now posting items. > > > >So I went to the new website - https://www.ibm.com/community/, signed up, and started looking at it. With the optional portals listed in the FAQ and this new community website, it just seems like IBM wants to remove as much technical information as possible and replace it with marketing. If anyone knows how to search the new community website, please let me know. If I’m not ready to buy a product, the community is not doing anything for me. > > > >P.S. – Aled – thanks for your post. I have always had the highest respect for Timothy and Mark, and I really appreciate how much they support the customers. > > > >Still a little bitter about the deletions… > >Cheryl > > > >-Original Message- >From: Cheryl Watson >Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 12:39 PM >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >Cc: Cheryl Watson >Subject: IBM Developerworks is gone! > > > >Hi all, > > > >Remember when IBM went through and deleted from their websites what they considered "old" manuals and documentation? Well, they just did it again! They've removed all the DeveloperWorks articles that have provided such excellent information since its creation. And these aren't just OLD articles. Even a link from three months ago is gone. All references to DeveloperWorks are now directed to a nothing site. The DeveloperWorks website contained amazing articles from some of the top developers in their fields, many of whom are no longer still working at IBM. We understand that IBM "furloughed" them, but they don't have to furlough their ideas. > > > >I'm pleading with all of you who work for a large IBM customer to ask your management to tell IBM to stop this idiotic practice. There is NO reason to delete valuable information. > > > >If this is due to marketing wanting a new image, then they have no idea what image they're creating. > > > >Please do this for all of us! > > > >All my best, > > > >Cheryl Watson > >Watson & Walker, Inc. > > > > > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
Don't forget change logs. I once had to pick up documentation from someone who was into racing was in a coma for several years. I helped to instill in me the idea that you do the documentation first, and that if you need to revise the design or code, you revise the documentation first. In my dreams - most managers consider it a luxury. The "Take the money and run" culture doesn't help either. That said, good tools (not just the language) can make life easier and bad tools can increase the likelyhood of errors. But no language or IDE is so good that it can defend you from mismanagement. "Inexpensive, quick, reliable: pick two." And that's if you're lucky. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Dan at Poodles [poodles...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? >From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to little, if >any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is there correct >file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational documentation? Is >there correct program documentation? Are the programs documented externally >(this is what this program does) and internally (explaining in excruciating >detail every action taken). Have standards been established and strictly >followed? Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support the code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal program documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify everything. This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the poor souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. They pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, that was good enough before. Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. Yet, I've seen this occur way too often. Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
Another luxury: get some people to perform a walk-through of the just the documentation. You can include folks who don't even know the language, COBOL or otherwise. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 12:41 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL Don't forget change logs. I once had to pick up documentation from someone who was into racing was in a coma for several years. I helped to instill in me the idea that you do the documentation first, and that if you need to revise the design or code, you revise the documentation first. In my dreams - most managers consider it a luxury. The "Take the money and run" culture doesn't help either. That said, good tools (not just the language) can make life easier and bad tools can increase the likelyhood of errors. But no language or IDE is so good that it can defend you from mismanagement. "Inexpensive, quick, reliable: pick two." And that's if you're lucky. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Dan at Poodles [poodles...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to little, if any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is there correct file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational documentation? Is there correct program documentation? Are the programs documented externally (this is what this program does) and internally (explaining in excruciating detail every action taken). Have standards been established and strictly followed? Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support the code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal program documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify everything. This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the poor souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. They pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, that was good enough before. Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. Yet, I've seen this occur way too often. Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
I hated it; that level of AI on a 360/75? To say nothing of just reeking of sympathetic magic. BTW, the wiki article got the origin of the name wrong; it was P-1 because it ran in partition (remember those) 1. Does anybody know whether Waterloo was actually running MVT on their 75, as seems likely? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 12:57 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... An even better story ... https://secure-web.cisco.com/1uc-VlaG4d4DXKhOogYOQ-R2xx23bgRDSC_wr66amqQiP3JV4iUeulIhLwneXEMLW355gnqlB4IoI-jRG1gHFALOCJZl9sQ8e8Nr73-c6782R0WU_Os6gnDwja6mrvo4oEbL_nk2DGPA9VLQ0Exe0S-dzkqkiR_QD2TMZp1ymyy3ZzbvqQ2uiBr5AmjZv-6YN8D0t2QERQ6sxkP0CFe1y-bKP5oa-K6nXaOZvYymMe8_X-Gnzb7rd8PtAbJ_nvUVGQctCvIdNwiMB_Tb1TlHYTKd8P1v_Zq4JS8jYMxAfLtQ49SLQcp0C0xEMv2pyFjwP2GOpn9yn8xV2rI9EVHenvEEfd-6c-5YfcmqkJa9MsVz_4CuDg0PNqognkeutg5ISRDq5JWK6JkARt0mTZwVY_qRY4iaPoAlTaoLO_WuISso16sZExEaDfLksVO16Dw6a/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe_Adolescence_of_P-1 Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:31 AM Bob Bridges wrote: > I'll cheerfully leave political partisanship aside. But if I may > attribute this equally to both sides (and thus avoid partisanship), I'm > with Joel ~and~ Lionel on this. Most folks who misuse their power start > out, at least, in hopes of doing good. What I'm saying is that although we > value altruism, I don't trust even altruists in the matter of exercising > power, especially when in pursuit of The Good of Humanity. > > Doesn't mean we won't keep building robots. Doesn't even mean we > shouldn't. But even altruists can be villains. Ultron and Colossus both > wanted to save the world, after all. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* The historian Macaulay famously said that the Puritans opposed > bearbaiting not because it gave pain to the bears but because it gave > pleasure to the spectators. The Puritans were right: Some pleasures are > contemptible because they are coarsening. They are not merely private > vices, they have public consequences in driving the culture's downward > spiral. -George Will, "The challenge of thinking lower", 2001-06-22 */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Lionel B Dyck > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:22 > > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests and > that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in money, > influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans > as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific > recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the > opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived > offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to > humanity. > > --- On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > --- On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing > wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was > >> to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers > >> (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the > >> hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something > >> with incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the > >> hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software > >> above a certain level of c
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
Well, I've been on projects where we had code and design reviews, and we considered them necessities. "Luxury: I'll be somewhere else when the balloon goes up." -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson [jesse1.robin...@sce.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 3:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Another luxury: get some people to perform a walk-through of the just the documentation. You can include folks who don't even know the language, COBOL or otherwise. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 12:41 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL Don't forget change logs. I once had to pick up documentation from someone who was into racing was in a coma for several years. I helped to instill in me the idea that you do the documentation first, and that if you need to revise the design or code, you revise the documentation first. In my dreams - most managers consider it a luxury. The "Take the money and run" culture doesn't help either. That said, good tools (not just the language) can make life easier and bad tools can increase the likelyhood of errors. But no language or IDE is so good that it can defend you from mismanagement. "Inexpensive, quick, reliable: pick two." And that's if you're lucky. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Dan at Poodles [poodles...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 1:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? From 46 years of experience, these problems can be mostly traced to little, if any, documentation. Is there correct system documentation? Is there correct file/data base documentation? Is there correct operational documentation? Is there correct program documentation? Are the programs documented externally (this is what this program does) and internally (explaining in excruciating detail every action taken). Have standards been established and strictly followed? Yea, I know all of this is a pain in the a$$, but who's going to support the code should the author(s) get run over by a bus? Detailed internal program documentation is also a great tool to review the author's logic and assumptions. It forces programmers and managers to re-think and re-verify everything. This lack of documentation can always, always, be traced to pi$$ poor management. Just because a project is completed in record time and under budget does not mean the project is a success. More likely than not, the poor souls tasked with supporting these systems are left with a nightmare. They pick up the crap they inherited and simply add more. What the hell, that was good enough before. Quick and dirty one-time shots should never be placed into production. Yet, I've seen this occur way too often. Whatever programming languages are used to write code is completely irrelevant. It's all about the documentation. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
On Mon, 11 May 2020 19:40:42 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >Don't forget change logs. > >I once had to pick up documentation from someone who was into racing was in a >coma for several years. I helped to instill in me the idea that you do the >documentation first, and that if you need to revise the design or code, you >revise the documentation first. In my dreams - most managers consider it a >luxury. The "Take the money and run" culture doesn't help either. > And it's far too easy for a vendor to plead "WAD" when the design doc is proprietary. I've had instances where I've wanted to know if the design really implied it should work as I experienced. >That said, good tools (not just the language) can make life easier and bad >tools can increase the likelyhood of errors. But no language or IDE is so good >that it can defend you from mismanagement. > >"Inexpensive, quick, reliable: pick two." And that's if you're lucky. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
"There's never time to do it right but there's always time to do it over." Yes, the quality of the plan and its enforcement makes a big difference in the outcome. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 12:04 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? Seymour, Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in NYC ...it works IMHO.. Scott On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:58 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > Nor is Academia. If anything, such ineptitude is more common in the > private sector. Morton-Thiokol. Boeing. Perkin-Elmer. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Kirk Wolf [k...@dovetail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:02 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/13_dUZjSXiW4502OI3_iUobjB67KaxPIaxYDgXjEyzmGl1CBAkFMZZRuO-3sHVKNfOsHPuj-xBNixpbcgXaATL04rDbIAI49t5m4zUcbDMptUu-OeEFKfe2F7Wof60cWetuVPS1CBAcRzrXCJ5DkSiaXEDzlqzgLRTh2SiBpBnTKNfr_kW52YmxjM9pgcTKAzW79-5-ocX6Af8KsWFZKNKlqwKH59WZOIpo8HomN39d95h8Ju-09pcgJbN4KoU_f20FLwR8nHHncaOqsKan8uXx8ATS1ENhaoXM-HZi_cHkS1guFwpmWWIaAwSSEoSWnRwFmffg4MON-bkNXIHBIUuJPB1Q7On-E1zUc4AIjfLCJho6zHPMVtyWtqL6GPwBZ2IsTpgsbIh8iIJq50cTok-enhAsJlE_PKM35BSZ9Y9gGutpWqPaBnxLJBqu1x_wrF/https%3A%2F%2Flockdownsceptics.org%2Fcode-review-of-fergusons-model%2F > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > Kirk Wolf > Dovetailed Technologies > > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1VneLcEjo-fhdKw5y_gqhccmM75JFhQGYOP-UVsuJad7w_9opIsOpSMYM86wVKS5oteIm7yvG6dZcHY1qcjVNwR9xpHwaKIbEP8YseR12FFeuvDHeFnt9kW2FXR4e6uQVdYqVGbCl7wzUZXLI6f5INvLSqKPFb7Vrx0ehTLP3q2VVWMWn0cF8m6d4LG4qOuzIWOLkFJIjDcIw83mAepnLZy06mT8vQf1s5bVRbaFe06zZlRyx5o0Hd0khg4QDmLukMy5bgzdqhjdpYJYqJQYmudTDfTfoSsuP7BUzQkwvstLw3km-O-X1JOpp3hATQNcatyLQ_Kx7XaAk1qCgJNIrNlOVU7GcySEWuPlufBE8EsIA8VDB8Idi-UeAuPm03XI_EznD8UOhURENg1tnhD-QccVyKz5ycNajwbPdv4nHicGDera-YUXz9rn856r0rn3j/http%3A%2F%2Fdovetail.com > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem?
Yep, I agree On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:06 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > "There's never time to do it right but there's always time to do it over." > Yes, the quality of the plan and its enforcement makes a big difference in > the outcome. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 12:04 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > > Seymour, > > Yes sir no balance between Money and quality of life per se. I feel > computer languages are our tools to get the job done. But one has to plan , > work the plan, basically execute it. This is how I learned working IBM in > NYC ...it works IMHO.. > > Scott > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:58 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > > > Nor is Academia. If anything, such ineptitude is more common in the > > private sector. Morton-Thiokol. Boeing. Perkin-Elmer. > > > > > > -- > > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > > of Kirk Wolf [k...@dovetail.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:02 AM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: OT: But COBOL is the problem? > > > > > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/13_dUZjSXiW4502OI3_iUobjB67KaxPIaxYDgXjEyzmGl1CBAkFMZZRuO-3sHVKNfOsHPuj-xBNixpbcgXaATL04rDbIAI49t5m4zUcbDMptUu-OeEFKfe2F7Wof60cWetuVPS1CBAcRzrXCJ5DkSiaXEDzlqzgLRTh2SiBpBnTKNfr_kW52YmxjM9pgcTKAzW79-5-ocX6Af8KsWFZKNKlqwKH59WZOIpo8HomN39d95h8Ju-09pcgJbN4KoU_f20FLwR8nHHncaOqsKan8uXx8ATS1ENhaoXM-HZi_cHkS1guFwpmWWIaAwSSEoSWnRwFmffg4MON-bkNXIHBIUuJPB1Q7On-E1zUc4AIjfLCJho6zHPMVtyWtqL6GPwBZ2IsTpgsbIh8iIJq50cTok-enhAsJlE_PKM35BSZ9Y9gGutpWqPaBnxLJBqu1x_wrF/https%3A%2F%2Flockdownsceptics.org%2Fcode-review-of-fergusons-model%2F > > > > BTW: C++ is not the problem either ;-) > > > > Kirk Wolf > > Dovetailed Technologies > > > > > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1VneLcEjo-fhdKw5y_gqhccmM75JFhQGYOP-UVsuJad7w_9opIsOpSMYM86wVKS5oteIm7yvG6dZcHY1qcjVNwR9xpHwaKIbEP8YseR12FFeuvDHeFnt9kW2FXR4e6uQVdYqVGbCl7wzUZXLI6f5INvLSqKPFb7Vrx0ehTLP3q2VVWMWn0cF8m6d4LG4qOuzIWOLkFJIjDcIw83mAepnLZy06mT8vQf1s5bVRbaFe06zZlRyx5o0Hd0khg4QDmLukMy5bgzdqhjdpYJYqJQYmudTDfTfoSsuP7BUzQkwvstLw3km-O-X1JOpp3hATQNcatyLQ_Kx7XaAk1qCgJNIrNlOVU7GcySEWuPlufBE8EsIA8VDB8Idi-UeAuPm03XI_EznD8UOhURENg1tnhD-QccVyKz5ycNajwbPdv4nHicGDera-YUXz9rn856r0rn3j/http%3A%2F%2Fdovetail.com > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > -- > Scott Ford > IDMWORKS > z/OS Development > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Scott Ford IDMWORKS z/OS Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Remember that it was fiction, and that Asimov's field was biochemistry. His stories have a good deal of bafflegab in them, but the key question is whether you enjoyed them; I did. I found the gimmick of laws that we don't even know how to interpret, never mind implement, far less distracting than, e.g., the faulty counting of electrons in "The Gods Themselves". Likewise the Galactic Empire stories. Did the handwaving prevent you from enjoying them. And for all of you that enjoyed any of Asimov's stories, I strongly recommend that you look up Thiotimoline on wike; put down your hot coffe and your cat before you start reading those stories. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joel C. Ewing [jcew...@acm.org] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace to humanity. Joel C Ewing On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > future of AI. > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > Scott > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to >> try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all >> of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of >> any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with >> incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware >> doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a >> certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown >> consequences. >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand >> and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines >> inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. >> Joel C Ewing >> >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a >> similar parody on our own times. >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . >> " (War Games), right after Dr. Strangelove of course, simply because it was >> so twisted. >>> Mutual Assured Destruction indeed. Is SkyNet far away? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:21 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' >> programming language of 2020 >>> I've always loved "Colossus: The Forbin Project". Not many people have >> seen it, as far as I can tell. >>> The only problem I have with
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
I was on a chemistry site, and posted asking about a source of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiotimoline . Someone actually emailed me they had some, so I asked how quick did it dissolve in water. They didn't reply. At the end of his Chemistry PhD Thesis defense, the questioners asked about it too. Then grinned and announced he had passed. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:16 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Remember that it was fiction, and that Asimov's field was biochemistry. His > stories have a good deal of bafflegab in them, but the key question is > whether you enjoyed them; I did. I found the gimmick of laws that we don't > even know how to interpret, never mind implement, far less distracting than, > e.g., the faulty counting of electrons in "The Gods Themselves". > > Likewise the Galactic Empire stories. Did the handwaving prevent you from > enjoying them. > > And for all of you that enjoyed any of Asimov's stories, I strongly recommend > that you look up Thiotimoline on wike; put down your hot coffe and your cat > before you start reading those stories. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Joel C. Ewing [jcew...@acm.org] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 11:11 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when I > step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of robotics > would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. Even if > well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a robot the > concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when there have > always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one group of > humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were given > the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that they > perceived offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a menace > to humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about the > > future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. was to > >> try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and non-programmers (all > >> of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting lethal force in the hands of > >> any autonomous or even semi-autonomous machine is something with > >> incredible potential to go wrong. We all know that even if the hardware > >> doesn't fail, which it inevitably will, that all software above a > >> certain level of complexity is guaranteed to have bugs with unknown > >> consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about society > >> becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge to understand > >> and maintain the machines, resulting in total collapse when the machines > >> inevitably fail. I still remember my oldest sister reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >> Joel C Ewing > >> > >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe for a > >> similar parody on our own times. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > >>> > >>> > >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] > >>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 11:39 PM > >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' > >> programming language of 2020 > >>> For relatively recent fare, I agree 100% - "Person of Interest" leads > >> the pack. My favorite oldie -- "Let's play Global Thermonuclear War . . . > >> "
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
Alex, What you have in that interface is a simple protocol translator ... translating bi-directional TN3270 to 3270 Data Stream. That is great to drive a 3270 dumb terminal. The first thing you need is to emulate a real control unit ... like a 3174 or 3274. If you read the product letter: https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS183-033/index.html "The 3290 utilizes microcode loaded from the IBM 3274 Control Unit to provide screen-management facilities for improved end-user ease of use." So, you need some microcode for the 3290, then you need to be able to load it to the 3290 on request from your OEC. Once you have that working, then the rest will kinda fall into place with the DFT functionality on the OEC. Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:18 PM Alexander Huemer wrote: > Hi > > I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email > thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. > Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have > built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal > on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the > terminal can be found at [2]. > > Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so > called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT > (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) > CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the > functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. > > Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides > what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? > > What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the > communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. > > -Alex > > [1] https://github.com/lowobservable/oec > [2] https://ahuemer.xx.vu/volatile/2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU/ > [3] > https://github.com/lowobservable/coax/blob/protocol/protocol/protocol.md > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
TN3270 encapsulates the 3270 data stream; there's no translation involved. Implementing CUT or DFT is a different translation, and that is apparently what oec does. Think of TN3270 as an alternative to channel, BSC or SDLC links. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 8:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT Alex, What you have in that interface is a simple protocol translator ... translating bi-directional TN3270 to 3270 Data Stream. That is great to drive a 3270 dumb terminal. The first thing you need is to emulate a real control unit ... like a 3174 or 3274. If you read the product letter: https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS183-033/index.html "The 3290 utilizes microcode loaded from the IBM 3274 Control Unit to provide screen-management facilities for improved end-user ease of use." So, you need some microcode for the 3290, then you need to be able to load it to the 3290 on request from your OEC. Once you have that working, then the rest will kinda fall into place with the DFT functionality on the OEC. Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:18 PM Alexander Huemer wrote: > Hi > > I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email > thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. > Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have > built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal > on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the > terminal can be found at [2]. > > Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so > called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT > (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) > CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the > functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. > > Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides > what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? > > What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the > communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. > > -Alex > > [1] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1vlIhY4V_aywcFTX__Fd5NXI51bckoNxnTNmzFp7TRnF7zbt7LCyVgQAu0YtD9ThNbrXZD4M1u0z4F_HhRc1e64BzrWjeklln7utA_76676bH-95U_RR5WkSSsjEEgrkV-dpiBRlbWxUi5d8ImqPzl7yux5JR115uPjtKM8FOz8ehIM4yczPRfScNfJBlRJKwkvvpBiFDDRQC5095JCfykr5oMAIdEpBeSjK03kuu0yhBpn-AtY6wUP_AmVl0981y_STeqmCAit7yEodnyM0G1JJiRwwLkbmThjkSnIpxbqQ6PJ8dW3ZVdZMnEpI9F1nFa2DZdSYxKOtNJcTMRV4ZEkNW8Xy3WseFowE6R79waKmOkp20sKZLhSZgpdw1AWCsAo9Txo2fiualiWOtCeAfQltVlb0xACuHIAIlQNZ5r2k8EH_KB5WE1_6yeC_7jU_O/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Foec > [2] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1SQi3q2VhlTlrGizNplSRl5IpZJ2HBxnVwKQCVGkjWIsR2Zy9HkSo7rYO6DxRUKZeOpWgKkcYmPB4fuQ5mvYA7FDut1UqtdrF5fP02rd1C-zrCvZcgeJ5J5Lr87ReANDxhONbJ2O7p7PECtYg6FEnwFPYnk4I1NCp9CO0dhyVpHuxvQZx5yY2_4Obt_VxOILArXm2WyKBvwf2zX9JQ4zIv-_8bkCeKCaCkrHA1eLmxNDNtj-fMGwQcNWQ3_o4G08XaaeETQBBJ5_GrQsgtdQC8tZGdtvpU8gB45GeZA42WKhOvW0NvRV4-xQdrFuJiGyEQekhzcYONPP4970JJd383hUgdw42Gjjs3aTRuiN8KjUrUCARbMW5h3G-LZKJNvjvx9aXjjjpsFrZ-QqUuZIeTHJ3HwjTwGR9w1EcYEFkmuwSG0vUv-BSVfThjkQuYjhy/https%3A%2F%2Fahuemer.xx.vu%2Fvolatile%2F2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU%2F > [3] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1fsc9ZGe-po7XIhyE9ksIFQcgWIKnOknKsKZUHHfydKhIn98m_BKzoBGEiAImwK7ie7-IQx9WXgz4ELD5U8XoERyEW3XD2G1Huopvr5BHRg1DTDwc4ROVbVA0LSX-1aWMHi0u3g2jWQNSAWTwHJC-LIbv3NvSJeHkYphLTREVblzsFxESsXLJEc4hNE0-AAaTsveWg9DZwCgub7uuOKslsOapD_tLCXH0S4zRtItsTHCoiyTAS2AClyNh94yVq59fARyn2-LoaRwpfnVYOUFUsEQcHJYlogbeGDkOK8rz_dlYuawfoG9SZMPRlTethM1oL1YTIa76wJzLlhz08z16HD_9jHrhzWy5H71WUKyjZ9Bls8jnWbAOm6w3NgyuMKnfDBqnktQ509vVkHxvnMS6KPoUjynGD-cqcoXNdoLmmcryhH3esOIV05h-4fAd4QCD/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Fcoax%2Fblob%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol.md > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
I understand that. The interface board he is using translates TN3270 to straight 3270 data stream. So, since he wants to connect a 3290, he will need to download microcode before he can use the 3290. Thus, he needs to emulate a 3x74 controller with am ethernet connection (TN3270E) to VTAM/NCP... "Prerequisites: The IBM 3290 Information Panel attaches to the IBM 3274 Control Unit Models 1A, 1C, 1D, 31A, 31C, 31D, 41A, 41C, 41D, 51C, and 61C. The 3290 requires the customizing of the 3274 and a microcode load from the 3274 to be operational. A 3178, 3278, or 3279 display station with keyboard attached to port 0 of the control unit is required for customizing and maintenance of the 3274 Control Unit." Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:34 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > TN3270 encapsulates the 3270 data stream; there's no translation involved. > Implementing CUT or DFT is a different translation, and that is apparently > what oec does. Think of TN3270 as an alternative to channel, BSC or SDLC > links. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 8:00 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT > > Alex, > > What you have in that interface is a simple protocol translator ... > translating bi-directional TN3270 to 3270 Data Stream. That is great to > drive a 3270 dumb terminal. > > The first thing you need is to emulate a real control unit ... like a 3174 > or 3274. > > If you read the product letter: > https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS183-033/index.html > > "The 3290 utilizes microcode loaded from the IBM 3274 Control Unit to > provide screen-management facilities > for improved end-user ease of use." > > So, you need some microcode for the 3290, then you need to be able to load > it to the 3290 on request from your OEC. Once you have that working, then > the rest will kinda fall into place with the DFT functionality on the OEC. > > Joe > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:18 PM Alexander Huemer > wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email > > thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. > > Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have > > built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal > > on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the > > terminal can be found at [2]. > > > > Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so > > called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT > > (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) > > CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the > > functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. > > > > Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides > > what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? > > > > What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the > > communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. > > > > -Alex > > > > [1] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1vlIhY4V_aywcFTX__Fd5NXI51bckoNxnTNmzFp7TRnF7zbt7LCyVgQAu0YtD9ThNbrXZD4M1u0z4F_HhRc1e64BzrWjeklln7utA_76676bH-95U_RR5WkSSsjEEgrkV-dpiBRlbWxUi5d8ImqPzl7yux5JR115uPjtKM8FOz8ehIM4yczPRfScNfJBlRJKwkvvpBiFDDRQC5095JCfykr5oMAIdEpBeSjK03kuu0yhBpn-AtY6wUP_AmVl0981y_STeqmCAit7yEodnyM0G1JJiRwwLkbmThjkSnIpxbqQ6PJ8dW3ZVdZMnEpI9F1nFa2DZdSYxKOtNJcTMRV4ZEkNW8Xy3WseFowE6R79waKmOkp20sKZLhSZgpdw1AWCsAo9Txo2fiualiWOtCeAfQltVlb0xACuHIAIlQNZ5r2k8EH_KB5WE1_6yeC_7jU_O/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Foec > > [2] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1SQi3q2VhlTlrGizNplSRl5IpZJ2HBxnVwKQCVGkjWIsR2Zy9HkSo7rYO6DxRUKZeOpWgKkcYmPB4fuQ5mvYA7FDut1UqtdrF5fP02rd1C-zrCvZcgeJ5J5Lr87ReANDxhONbJ2O7p7PECtYg6FEnwFPYnk4I1NCp9CO0dhyVpHuxvQZx5yY2_4Obt_VxOILArXm2WyKBvwf2zX9JQ4zIv-_8bkCeKCaCkrHA1eLmxNDNtj-fMGwQcNWQ3_o4G08XaaeETQBBJ5_GrQsgtdQC8tZGdtvpU8gB45GeZA42WKhOvW0NvRV4-xQdrFuJiGyEQekhzcYONPP4970JJd383hUgdw42Gjjs3aTRuiN8KjUrUCARbMW5h3G-LZKJNvjvx9aXjjjpsFrZ-QqUuZIeTHJ3HwjTwGR9w1EcYEFkmuwSG0vUv-BSVfThjkQuYjhy/https%3A%2F%2Fahuemer.xx.vu%2Fvolatile%2F2020-05-11-P6C1Wc3u1wU%2F > > [3] > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1fsc9ZGe-po7XIhyE9ksIFQcgWIKnOknKsKZUHHfydKhIn98m_BKzoBGEiAImwK7ie7-IQx9WXgz4ELD5U8XoERyEW3XD2G1Huopvr5BHRg1DTDwc4ROVbVA0LSX-1aWMHi0u3g2jWQNSAWTwHJC-LIbv3NvSJeHkYphLTREVblzsFxESsXLJEc4hNE0-AAaTsveWg9DZwCgub7uuOKslsOapD_tLCXH0S4zRtItsTHCoiyTAS2AClyNh94yVq59fARyn2-LoaRwpfnVYOUFUsEQcHJYlogbeGDkOK8rz_dlYuawfoG9SZMPRlTethM1oL1YTIa76wJzLlhz08z16HD_9jHrhzWy5H71WUKyjZ9Bls8jnWbAOm6w3NgyuMKnfDBqnktQ509vVkHxvnMS6KPoUjynGD-cqcoXNdoLmmcryhH3esOIV05h-4fAd4QCD/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Fcoax%2Fblob%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol%2Fprotocol.md > > > >
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
But what about the AI that develops autonomously? Remember Mike (Mycroft) from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Heinlein) and TANSTAAFL (still true today - so many people forget). AI might not be "developed" directly, which then rules out having any "rules". Russell -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... Joel, I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter stupidity. Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject Sensitive Dysphoria ). I have both ... Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:22 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests > and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in > money, influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John > Wooden > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when > I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of > robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. > Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a > robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when > there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one > group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of > "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were > given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that > they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a > menace to humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about > > the future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. > >> was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and > >> non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting > >> lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous > >> machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all > >> know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably > >> will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is > >> guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about > >> society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge > >> to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total > >> collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my > >> oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forster, "The Machine Stops" (1909), to me when I was very young. > >> Various Star Trek episodes used both of these themes as plots. > >> People can also break down with lethal side effects, but the > >> potential damage one person can create is more easily contained by > >> other people. The only effective way to defend again a berserk lethal > >> machine may be with another lethal machine, and Colossus-Guardian > >> suggests why that may be an even worse idea. > >> Joel C Ewing > >> > >> On 5/11/20 4:54 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >>> Strangelove was twisted because the times were twisted. We're ripe > >>> for a > >> similar parody on our own times. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > >>> > >>> > >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on > >> behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@bro
Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT
Not if by "straight 3270 data stream" you mean what is documented in 3270 Information Display System Data Stream Programmer's Reference; that's not what flows over the coax. The board and oec translate between the coax data stream and the documented 3270 data stream. In addition to that, oec uses TN3270 as a transport mechanism for the 3270 data stream, with no translation. I am, however, confused by :oec only works with CUT terminals", since the readme refers to both CUT and DFT. Perhaps what they told him is that oec doesn't support DSL. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 9:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT I understand that. The interface board he is using translates TN3270 to straight 3270 data stream. So, since he wants to connect a 3290, he will need to download microcode before he can use the 3290. Thus, he needs to emulate a 3x74 controller with am ethernet connection (TN3270E) to VTAM/NCP... "Prerequisites: The IBM 3290 Information Panel attaches to the IBM 3274 Control Unit Models 1A, 1C, 1D, 31A, 31C, 31D, 41A, 41C, 41D, 51C, and 61C. The 3290 requires the customizing of the 3274 and a microcode load from the 3274 to be operational. A 3178, 3278, or 3279 display station with keyboard attached to port 0 of the control unit is required for customizing and maintenance of the 3274 Control Unit." Joe On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:34 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > TN3270 encapsulates the 3270 data stream; there's no translation involved. > Implementing CUT or DFT is a different translation, and that is apparently > what oec does. Think of TN3270 as an alternative to channel, BSC or SDLC > links. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Joe Monk [joemon...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 8:00 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: 3270 terminals: CUT vs. DFT > > Alex, > > What you have in that interface is a simple protocol translator ... > translating bi-directional TN3270 to 3270 Data Stream. That is great to > drive a 3270 dumb terminal. > > The first thing you need is to emulate a real control unit ... like a 3174 > or 3274. > > If you read the product letter: > https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS183-033/index.html > > "The 3290 utilizes microcode loaded from the IBM 3274 Control Unit to > provide screen-management facilities > for improved end-user ease of use." > > So, you need some microcode for the 3290, then you need to be able to load > it to the 3290 on request from your OEC. Once you have that working, then > the rest will kinda fall into place with the DFT functionality on the OEC. > > Joe > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:18 PM Alexander Huemer > wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I have a 3290 terminal that I'd like to put to some use. See email > > thread 'Talking to 3270 terminals?' that I started Jan 14. > > Somebody then pointed me to oec[1], which is an awesome project. I have > > built the hardware interface that is required to talk to a 3270 terminal > > on the hardware level. A picture of the interface and a video of the > > terminal can be found at [2]. > > > > Now, the friendly person who created oec says that the 3290 is a so > > called DFT (Distributed Function Terminal), in contrast to a CUT > > (Control Unit Terminal). Most 3270 terminals seem to be of the (simpler) > > CUT variant. oec only works with CUT terminals. Extending the > > functionality to enable it to work with DFT terminals isn't trivial. > > > > Does anybody on the list here know of additional documentation besides > > what's mentioned at [3] that could be helpful to implement DFT support? > > > > What would also be very helpful is a protocol trace of any kind of the > > communication between a 3174 and a DFT terminal. > > > > -Alex > > > > [1] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1vlIhY4V_aywcFTX__Fd5NXI51bckoNxnTNmzFp7TRnF7zbt7LCyVgQAu0YtD9ThNbrXZD4M1u0z4F_HhRc1e64BzrWjeklln7utA_76676bH-95U_RR5WkSSsjEEgrkV-dpiBRlbWxUi5d8ImqPzl7yux5JR115uPjtKM8FOz8ehIM4yczPRfScNfJBlRJKwkvvpBiFDDRQC5095JCfykr5oMAIdEpBeSjK03kuu0yhBpn-AtY6wUP_AmVl0981y_STeqmCAit7yEodnyM0G1JJiRwwLkbmThjkSnIpxbqQ6PJ8dW3ZVdZMnEpI9F1nFa2DZdSYxKOtNJcTMRV4ZEkNW8Xy3WseFowE6R79waKmOkp20sKZLhSZgpdw1AWCsAo9Txo2fiualiWOtCeAfQltVlb0xACuHIAIlQNZ5r2k8EH_KB5WE1_6yeC_7jU_O/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flowobservable%2Foec > > [2] > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1SQi3q2VhlTlrGizNplSRl5IpZJ2HBxnVwKQCVGkjWIsR2Zy9HkSo7rYO6DxRUKZeOpWgKkcYmPB4fuQ5mvYA7FDut1UqtdrF5fP02rd1C-zrCvZcgeJ5J5Lr87ReANDxhONbJ2O7p7PECtYg6FEnwFPYnk4I1NCp9CO0dhyVpHuxvQZx5yY2_4Obt_VxOILArXm2WyKBvwf2zX9JQ4zIv-_8bkCeKCaCkrHA1eLmxNDNtj-fMGwQcNWQ3_o4G08XaaeETQBBJ5_GrQsgtdQC8tZGdtvpU8gB45GeZA42WKhO
Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say...
Well, Heinlein's explanation was bafflegab, but think neural nets; they have to be trained rather than programmed. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Russell Witt [025adb32e6d7-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 9:52 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... But what about the AI that develops autonomously? Remember Mike (Mycroft) from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (Heinlein) and TANSTAAFL (still true today - so many people forget). AI might not be "developed" directly, which then rules out having any "rules". Russell -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of scott Ford Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... Joel, I agree I am a huge sci-fi fan and believe in the sciences over utter stupidity. Lionel your point is well taken. I am guilty too, but when you have strong feelings , which sometimes part of ADHD , it’s called RSD ( Reject Sensitive Dysphoria ). I have both ... Scott On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:22 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Joel - can we please keep politics out of this listserv. Personally I > wouldn't trust anyone in power to act against their own self interests > and that applies to politicians and anyone else with power (as in > money, influence, etc.). > > There are altruistic individuals in the world and when it comes to the > development of an AI robot one prays/hopes that those are the software > developers who implement the code for the three laws. > > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: > https://secure-web.cisco.com/10rW9HRt3rzwxzpQwZHaIaC_lBpBXktWnjqey9MYD8CTNRZehiZ-cQm-wjOlPtpza0yh2Q10-0KdT_XcArRjoeQ2nMiLt61252ye4hPTKFuPXgrYELwQ54ioOLkR-FEGH68FsHXY145RqiE1b97NrhE7o2clkfWGlhPy4F22jGvW6jjJwZoNwOx_dD5DdA6cOy-OO7TwEgYNdCD5EJ4IN51GSWLIYW-JGV4c_TaAon7_kL_nRItaZXmspnf7KySHBu5WuvaH4pKwaq4YARZjZT50Ltdv63kKUvQ72XSRiO7-aCszqGoWi4CU0gh--4qDLpQsD5sQH0UhbJfJkZKPzfZoGfFDT12X_BzTNKk0CYbrB-yKyMQlyr3pXTBSYUcc74hMt2il56Km4CzPi85cLM1YuDxBMjeMeZMa1sXtneJ86iw1PpGfx__Tkz8En7xH8/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lbdsoftware.com > > "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is > what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John > Wooden > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 10:12 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Colossus, Strangelove, etc. was: Developers say... > > I've greatly enjoyed Asimov's vision of future possibilities, but when > I step back to reality it occurs to me that his perfect laws of > robotics would have to be implemented by fallible human programmers. > Even if well-intentioned, how would they unambiguously convey to a > robot the concepts of "human", "humanity", "hurt", and "injure" when > there have always been minorities or "others" that are treated by one > group of humans as sub-human to justify injuring them in the name of > "protecting" > them or protecting humanity? And then there is the issue of who might > make the decision to build sentient robots: For example, who in our > present White House would you trust to pay any heed to logic or > scientific recommendations or long-term consequences, if they were > given the opportunity to construct less-constrained AI robots that > they perceived offered some short-term political advantage? > > Humanity was also fortunate that when the hardware of Asimov's Daneel > began to fail, that he failed gracefully, rather than becoming a > menace to humanity. > Joel C Ewing > > On 5/11/20 8:43 AM, scott Ford wrote: > > Well done JoelI agree , But I can help to to be curious about > > the future of AI. > > a bit of Isaac Asimov > > > > Scott > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:25 AM Joel C. Ewing wrote: > > > >> And of course the whole point of Colossus, Dr Strangelove, War > >> Games, Terminator, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, etc. > >> was to try to make it clear to all the non-engineers and > >> non-programmers (all of whom greatly outnumber us) why putting > >> lethal force in the hands of any autonomous or even semi-autonomous > >> machine is something with incredible potential to go wrong. We all > >> know that even if the hardware doesn't fail, which it inevitably > >> will, that all software above a certain level of complexity is > >> guaranteed to have bugs with unknown consequences. > >> There is another equally cautionary genre in sci-fi about > >> society becoming so dependent on machines as to lose the knowledge > >> to understand and maintain the machines, resulting in total > >> collapse when the machines inevitably fail. I still remember my > >> oldest sister > reading E.M. > >> Forst
Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought after' programming language of 2020
Shmuel Metz wrote: >The problem is that some of those are incomplete, not z/OS, >or not up to date. 1. Would you like to be more specific? (And I don't know what you mean by "not z/OS." I answered specifically, exclusively for z/OS.) 2. Have you tried fixing the specific issues? - - - - - - - - - - Timothy Sipples I.T. Architect Executive Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions IBM Z & LinuxONE - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
