Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Marcus Daniels]

Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d

From: Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz 

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it is only 
$45 a month and $120 there.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of conned-cast 
or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL here?-- How is it? 
what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed is still god awful at a 
pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly enough. We get snow storms and 
stuff, is it a blackout then?
Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to about 20 
minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has had the 
korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only knows why.
So looking starlink and open to other options:
they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and white-glove 
levels of service.
CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
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Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Gary Schiltz]

It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here in
land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels
luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they
offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of
$100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth.
Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂
>
> https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz <
> g...@naturesvisualarts.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
>
> I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it is
> only $45 a month and $120 there.
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of
> conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL
> here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed is
> still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly enough.
> We get snow storms and stuff, is it a blackout then?
> Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to about
> 20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has had the
> korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only knows
> why.
> So looking starlink and open to other options:
> they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and
> white-glove levels of service.
> CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Barry MacKichan]

What is the situation in Santa Fe now? When I left in 2018, fiber still 
seemed in the distant future. Our new house in North Carolina, when 
built, had two fiber boxes by the street, one for CenturyLink and one 
for Spectrum. Since then, another one was added (unfortunately they 
accidentally cut the fiber line into the house, sending us back a 
century for about a week). We pay a bit over a hundred a month for a 
full gigabit. It is cheaper (per bit) at half a gigabit, but we were 
running a business and went for the full gigabit.


Since the infrastructure act was passed, our county has been flooded 
with trucks towing huge spools of orange fiber cable. They are running 
alongside rural roads and along the village roads back from the main 
roads. It looks like fiber will be within a hundred yards of almost 
every driveway.


We have the option of upgrading to 2 gigabit service, and lord knows 
what we could do bonding together three different providers 😉.



— Barry

On 12 Sep 2024, at 10:30, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  
Here in

land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels
luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and 
they
offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price 
of
$100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on 
earth.

Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels 
 wrote:



Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d
--
*From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz <
g...@naturesvisualarts.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here 
it is

only $45 a month and $120 there.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore 


wrote:

What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of
conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL
here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed 
is
still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly 
enough.

We get snow storms and stuff, is it a blackout then?
Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to 
about
20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has 
had the
korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only 
knows

why.
So looking starlink and open to other options:
they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and
white-glove levels of service.
CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
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Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Edward Angel]

I’ve never had the problems Gil has experienced with Comcast. I suspect that 
because Gil lives in an older neighborhood with old and failing infrastructure. 
We built our house 25 years ago in a new subdivision that required underground 
utilities. That meant we have cable to the house and we’re on a local loop 
without much traffic. Presently I have 1/2 Gb (download) service which is very 
reliable. It costs about $80/month. More about cost below.

Nevertheless, we hate Comcast and wish there were good alternatives in Santa 
Fe. In particular:

Cost: the $80/month internet is part of triple play (phone, internet, tv) so is 
slightly discounted and doesn’t include all the added on fees and charges for 
equipment. A typical triple play bill can be around $300.month. I recently 
spent a lot of time trying to reduce the bill. It’s hard. You can get your own 
modem and save $15/month but although almost all the modems on Amazon or Best 
Buy claim they are compatible with Comcast, the Comcast website only gives one 
alternative modem. Hence, if you have a problem connecting which happens to 
many people they will not help. If you have television that has a cable input 
but doesn’t support streaming, you have to use their boxes, $10/mo each.

Support: Horrible. Their website is terrible. Almost impossible to get the 
information you need. I spent half an hour trying to find how much their 
internet service costs and failed. Finally I was able to find a printout of my 
bill. It took two trips to their store and a long phone call to get a minor 
change to my plan done correctly. Their human service calls are a crap shoot. 
One installer managed to break a bunch of the wires in my panel and didn’t 
manage to connect the phone. Another was great and I tried to get him to apply 
for a degree program at UNM to escape Comcast. A third who did the initial 
install refused to believe that the Costco modem box I had used in ABQ with 
Comcast could possibly work (I was only used Comcast internet then). Finally, 
when I insisted he call his supervisor, he was told to just plug in the box. He 
left saying that was the easiest install he had ever done.

Comcast streaming: Sounds like a good alternative to many issues. Too bad it 
doesn’t work well. Crashes often. They made some changes and I found that it is 
the ONLY app I have that will not work with my vpn. After more time wasted 
trying to get support, I found from forums on their website that if you can 
manage to get a human on support you will be told it’s not their problem, it’s 
your computer, your vpn, …. Finally, one human at their store admitted it was 
hopeless and I just had to live with it.

I haven’t found a good alternative in SF,

Ed

___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

> On Sep 12, 2024, at 11:01 AM, Gillian Densmore  wrote:
> 
> Fiber is still 20 minutes into the future. Alas likely never without a 
> overhaul of the "leadership"
> 
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 8:56 AM Barry MacKichan 
> mailto:barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>> wrote:
>> What is the situation in Santa Fe now? When I left in 2018, fiber still 
>> seemed in the distant future. Our new house in North Carolina, when built, 
>> had two fiber boxes by the street, one for CenturyLink and one for Spectrum. 
>> Since then, another one was added (unfortunately they accidentally cut the 
>> fiber line into the house, sending us back a century for about a week). We 
>> pay a bit over a hundred a month for a full gigabit. It is cheaper (per bit) 
>> at half a gigabit, but we were running a business and went for the full 
>> gigabit.
>> 
>> Since the infrastructure act was passed, our county has been flooded with 
>> trucks towing huge spools of orange fiber cable. They are running alongside 
>> rural roads and along the village roads back from the main roads. It looks 
>> like fiber will be within a hundred yards of almost every driveway.
>> 
>> We have the option of upgrading to 2 gigabit service, and lord knows what we 
>> could do bonding together three different providers 😉.
>> 
>> 
>> — Barry
>> 
>> On 12 Sep 2024, at 10:30, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>> 
>> It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here in 
>> land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels 
>> luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they 
>> offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of $100 
>> a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth. Isn't 
>> Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels > 

Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Gary Schiltz]

Mañana. I’ve learned that it doesn’t mean “tomorrow”. It just means “not
today.” ;-)

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 12:02 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Fiber is still 20 minutes into the future. Alas likely never without a
> overhaul of the "leadership"
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 8:56 AM Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:
>
>> What is the situation in Santa Fe now? When I left in 2018, fiber still
>> seemed in the distant future. Our new house in North Carolina, when built,
>> had two fiber boxes by the street, one for CenturyLink and one for
>> Spectrum. Since then, another one was added (unfortunately they
>> accidentally cut the fiber line into the house, sending us back a century
>> for about a week). We pay a bit over a hundred a month for a full gigabit.
>> It is cheaper (per bit) at half a gigabit, but we were running a business
>> and went for the full gigabit.
>>
>> Since the infrastructure act was passed, our county has been flooded with
>> trucks towing huge spools of orange fiber cable. They are running alongside
>> rural roads and along the village roads back from the main roads. It looks
>> like fiber will be within a hundred yards of almost every driveway.
>>
>> We have the option of upgrading to 2 gigabit service, and lord knows what
>> we could do bonding together three different providers 😉.
>>
>> — Barry
>>
>> On 12 Sep 2024, at 10:30, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>>
>> It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here
>> in land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels
>> luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they
>> offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of
>> $100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth.
>> Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂
>>>
>>> https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d
>>> --
>>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz <
>>> g...@naturesvisualarts.com>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
>>>
>>> I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it
>>> is only $45 a month and $120 there.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore <
>>> gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of
>>> conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL
>>> here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed is
>>> still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly enough.
>>> We get snow storms and stuff, is it a blackout then?
>>> Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to
>>> about 20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has
>>> had the korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only
>>> knows why.
>>> So looking starlink and open to other options:
>>> they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and
>>> white-glove levels of service.
>>> CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
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>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Robert Ballance]

“Vexus” https://www.vexusfiber.com/ plans to roll out fiber to the home in Albuquerque and Santa Fe, but Mañana. That might vex us, but I have encouraged my neighbors to visit their site and check for services at their address. You will then get a chance to say you’d like to be offered service. This is one way to register demand. ... BobOn Sep 12, 2024, at 12:42, Gary Schiltz  wrote:Mañana. I’ve learned that it doesn’t mean “tomorrow”. It just means “not today.” ;-)On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 12:02 PM Gillian Densmore  wrote:Fiber is still 20 minutes into the future. Alas likely never without a overhaul of the "leadership"On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 8:56 AM Barry MacKichan  wrote:





What is the situation in Santa Fe now? When I left in 2018, fiber still seemed in the distant future. Our new house in North Carolina, when built, had two fiber boxes by the street, one for CenturyLink and one for Spectrum. Since then, another one was added (unfortunately they accidentally cut the fiber line into the house, sending us back a century for about a week). We pay a bit over a hundred a month for a full gigabit. It is cheaper (per bit) at half a gigabit, but we were running a business and went for the full gigabit.
Since the infrastructure act was passed, our county has been flooded with trucks towing huge spools of orange fiber cable. They are running alongside rural roads and along the village roads back from the main roads. It looks like fiber will be within a hundred yards of almost every driveway.
We have the option of upgrading to 2 gigabit service, and lord knows what we could do bonding together three different providers 😉.
— Barry
On 12 Sep 2024, at 10:30, Gary Schiltz wrote:



It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here in land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of $100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth. Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?



On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:



Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d


From: Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
 


I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it is only $45 a month and $120 there. 


On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore  wrote:

What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed is still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly enough. We get snow storms and stuff, is it a blackout then?
Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to about 20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has had the korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only knows why. 
So looking starlink and open to other options:
they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and white-glove levels of service.
CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.

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Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[steve smith]

I'm on NMSurf.com for most of a decade now, after the grant-funded San I 
wireless system ground to a halt after the funding went away...   before 
that I enjoyed a whole year of HughesNet satellight which was painfully 
asymmetric and heavily latent.  Before that dialup over the most poorly 
maintained copper in the world/country/state/county (probably just the 
latter).    I think I'm paying for the lowest tier of 100Mbps and but I 
don't get any better service than I did when I was paying (the same 
price or a little more) for 25Mbps and similarly for 10Mbps before that.


The hardest thing I ask of my ISP is one or maybe two simultaneous video 
streams (Netflix/Prime/Youtube, ???) and that was something even the 
10Mbps (usually) served well enough.


I was pulling signal from 23 miles away Line of Sight from the top of 
Big Tesuque for the longest time and it never failed, even in the 
harshest snow/rainstorms... a-mazing.   They relit the San lldefonso 
tower just about 1/2 mile from me and I get (best I can tell) the very 
same service, but it must be a lot easier/cheaper for them to provide 
such.   My downtime on top of the mountain was same or better, probably 
because they were probably serving a lot more people from that location 
and were a lot more on top of keeping the UPS and backup generators and 
multiple backhauls up and running 24/7   A few bad storms had them out 
of service for the long part of a day.   I get the same 
frequency/duration of outages (or higher) from my local "Tewa Tower" 
source which is probably a combination of problems with right-of-way for 
service on-pueblo and the small(er) number of clients (hundreds at 
most?) served from there.


I considered Starlink a few years ago as a way to be redundant with my 
neighbors who variously do use some version of Comcast and Qwest copper 
lines.   There was a moment when I though I could talk them into letting 
me mesh all 4 houses together with 4 backhauls (comcast, qwest, 
microwave ala NMSurf, Starlink) but they were not really up for being 
that chummy  or dependent on me/one-another I think?


What really stopped me was fine print in Musk's EULA which suggested 
that by accepting his service I was implicitely endorsing the idea that 
whomever landed on Mars first got to commercialize it.  I wish I could 
find that fine print again or some reference to it, maybe I made it up?  
Oh, yeh, then he said "we will coup anyone we want"...   buh!



- Steve

On 9/12/24 8:30 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  
Here in land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of 
megabits feels luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my 
property, and they offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for 
the low low price of $100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a 
month is heaven on earth. Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the 
third world?


On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels  
wrote:


Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d

*From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary
Schiltz 
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But
here it is only $45 a month and $120 there.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:

What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices
of conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that
aren't DSL here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they
anygood? the speed is still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but
so is Comcast. Appallingly enough. We get snow storms and
stuff, is it a blackout then?
Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this
morning to about 20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily
terrible and no one has had the korvnka's the slap them with a
RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only knows why.
So looking starlink and open to other options:
they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way
and white-glove levels of service.
CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
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-. --- 

Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Gary Schiltz]

I sometimes get 300 Mbps on the older Starlink hardware supported here in
Ecuador. With the newer hardware they supply in the USA it would probably
approach 500. Even at $120 it sounds reasonable to me. Down here they don’t
seem to mind wiring a few houses together. I don’t know about up there.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 4:31 PM steve smith  wrote:

> I'm on NMSurf.com for most of a decade now, after the grant-funded San I
> wireless system ground to a halt after the funding went away...   before
> that I enjoyed a whole year of HughesNet satellight which was painfully
> asymmetric and heavily latent.  Before that dialup over the most poorly
> maintained copper in the world/country/state/county (probably just the
> latter).I think I'm paying for the lowest tier of 100Mbps and but I
> don't get any better service than I did when I was paying (the same price
> or a little more) for 25Mbps and similarly for 10Mbps before that.
>
> The hardest thing I ask of my ISP is one or maybe two simultaneous video
> streams (Netflix/Prime/Youtube, ???) and that was something even the 10Mbps
> (usually) served well enough.
>
> I was pulling signal from 23 miles away Line of Sight from the top of Big
> Tesuque for the longest time and it never failed, even in the harshest
> snow/rainstorms... a-mazing.   They relit the San lldefonso tower just
> about 1/2 mile from me and I get (best I can tell) the very same service,
> but it must be a lot easier/cheaper for them to provide such.   My downtime
> on top of the mountain was same or better, probably because they were
> probably serving a lot more people from that location and were a lot more
> on top of keeping the UPS and backup generators and multiple backhauls up
> and running 24/7   A few bad storms had them out of service for the long
> part of a day.   I get the same frequency/duration of outages (or higher)
> from my local "Tewa Tower" source which is probably a combination of
> problems with right-of-way for service on-pueblo and the small(er) number
> of clients (hundreds at most?) served from there.
>
> I considered Starlink a few years ago as a way to be redundant with my
> neighbors who variously do use some version of Comcast and Qwest copper
> lines.   There was a moment when I though I could talk them into letting me
> mesh all 4 houses together with 4 backhauls (comcast, qwest, microwave ala
> NMSurf, Starlink) but they were not really up for being that chummy  or
> dependent on me/one-another I think?
>
> What really stopped me was fine print in Musk's EULA which suggested that
> by accepting his service I was implicitely endorsing the idea that whomever
> landed on Mars first got to commercialize it.  I wish I could find that
> fine print again or some reference to it, maybe I made it up?  Oh, yeh,
> then he said "we will coup anyone we want"...   buh!
>
>
> - Steve
> On 9/12/24 8:30 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here
> in land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels
> luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they
> offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of
> $100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth.
> Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂
>>
>> https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d
>> --
>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz <
>> g...@naturesvisualarts.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
>>
>> I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it is
>> only $45 a month and $120 there.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> What are folks's thoughts on this? for the atrocious  choices of
>> conned-cast or...nothing? or are there finally ISP's that aren't DSL
>> here?-- How is it? what's it really like? are they anygood? the speed is
>> still god awful at a pathetic 25mgs. but so is Comcast. Appallingly enough.
>> We get snow storms and stuff, is it a blackout then?
>> Asking because Comcast is going. From sometime early this morning to
>> about 20 minutes ago being out. Being legendarily terrible and no one has
>> had the korvnka's the slap them with a RICO anti-trust suit yet. God only
>> knows why.
>> So looking starlink and open to other options:
>> they have to real propper internet, at least 200mbs each way and
>> white-glove levels of service.
>> CC owen as well. I suspect we've both had enough.
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtual

Re: [FRIAM] Starlink

[Sarbajit Roy]

Just for reference, the costs in India for fibre and 5G mobile data (which
many people use to hotspot)

1. Fibre 30 Mbps up/down (unlimited) along with a landline phone with
unlimited calling US$ 4.50 per month (no bundles)
2. Fibre 300 Mbps  .. US$ 16 per month (bundled with free Amazon Prime,
netflix, Disney etc.. and 800+ TV channels)
3. Fibre 1 Gbps  ... US$ 90 per month  (bundled with free Amazon Prime,
netflix, Disney etc.. and 800+ TV channels)
Hardly ever breaks down and service is very quick

1. Mobile connection, unlimited calling within India and approx. 75
GB/month of 4G data (unlimited 5G data) US$ 4.50
2. Family Pack of 4 mobile connections unlimited calling within India, data
same as above for each .. US$8

30 Mbps fibre works just fine for me, and thanks to the pirate sites I get
all their bundles for free.

Sarbajit Roy


On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 7:20 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I sometimes get 300 Mbps on the older Starlink hardware supported here in
> Ecuador. With the newer hardware they supply in the USA it would probably
> approach 500. Even at $120 it sounds reasonable to me. Down here they don’t
> seem to mind wiring a few houses together. I don’t know about up there.
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 4:31 PM steve smith  wrote:
>
>> I'm on NMSurf.com for most of a decade now, after the grant-funded San I
>> wireless system ground to a halt after the funding went away...   before
>> that I enjoyed a whole year of HughesNet satellight which was painfully
>> asymmetric and heavily latent.  Before that dialup over the most poorly
>> maintained copper in the world/country/state/county (probably just the
>> latter).I think I'm paying for the lowest tier of 100Mbps and but I
>> don't get any better service than I did when I was paying (the same price
>> or a little more) for 25Mbps and similarly for 10Mbps before that.
>>
>> The hardest thing I ask of my ISP is one or maybe two simultaneous video
>> streams (Netflix/Prime/Youtube, ???) and that was something even the 10Mbps
>> (usually) served well enough.
>>
>> I was pulling signal from 23 miles away Line of Sight from the top of Big
>> Tesuque for the longest time and it never failed, even in the harshest
>> snow/rainstorms... a-mazing.   They relit the San lldefonso tower just
>> about 1/2 mile from me and I get (best I can tell) the very same service,
>> but it must be a lot easier/cheaper for them to provide such.   My downtime
>> on top of the mountain was same or better, probably because they were
>> probably serving a lot more people from that location and were a lot more
>> on top of keeping the UPS and backup generators and multiple backhauls up
>> and running 24/7   A few bad storms had them out of service for the long
>> part of a day.   I get the same frequency/duration of outages (or higher)
>> from my local "Tewa Tower" source which is probably a combination of
>> problems with right-of-way for service on-pueblo and the small(er) number
>> of clients (hundreds at most?) served from there.
>>
>> I considered Starlink a few years ago as a way to be redundant with my
>> neighbors who variously do use some version of Comcast and Qwest copper
>> lines.   There was a moment when I though I could talk them into letting me
>> mesh all 4 houses together with 4 backhauls (comcast, qwest, microwave ala
>> NMSurf, Starlink) but they were not really up for being that chummy  or
>> dependent on me/one-another I think?
>>
>> What really stopped me was fine print in Musk's EULA which suggested that
>> by accepting his service I was implicitely endorsing the idea that whomever
>> landed on Mars first got to commercialize it.  I wish I could find that
>> fine print again or some reference to it, maybe I made it up?  Oh, yeh,
>> then he said "we will coup anyone we want"...   buh!
>>
>>
>> - Steve
>> On 9/12/24 8:30 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>>
>> It depends on what's on the other end of your fiber connection :-)  Here
>> in land that tech forgot, getting more than a few tens of megabits feels
>> luxurious. One carrier has fiber optic passing over my property, and they
>> offered to tap into it and give me 20 megabits for the low low price of
>> $100 a month. Starlink's 300 megabits for $45 a month is heaven on earth.
>> Isn't Santa Fe still sort of part of the third world?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:06 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Neat trick, but no substitute for fiber. 🙂
>>>
>>> https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/d227591a-534e-4811-a3e9-1b055d44914d
>>> --
>>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Gary Schiltz <
>>> g...@naturesvisualarts.com>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2024 8:50 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Starlink
>>>
>>> I have Starlink here in Ecuador and am very happy with it. But here it
>>> is only $45 a month and $120 there.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 10:21 PM Gillian Densmore <
>>> gil.densm...@gmail.c

[FRIAM] affinity for chatbots

[glen]

We've talked about how some of us really enjoy simulated conversation with chatbots ... 
"really" is an understatement ... it looks more like a fetish or a kink to me ... too 
intense to be well-described as "enjoyment". Anyway, this article lands in that space, I 
think:

Durably reducing conspiracy beliefs through dialogues with AI
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adq1814

It seems to me that some arbitrary thought can play at least a few roles to a 
person. It may provide: 1) a kernel of identity to establish us vs. them, 2) 
fodder for feigning engagement at cocktail parties and such, and 3) a foil for 
world-construction (collaboratively or individually).

(1) and (2) wouldn't necessarily mechanize refinement of the thought, including 
testing, falsification, etc. But (3) would. For me, (2) does sometimes provide 
an externalized medium by which I can change my mind. Hence my affinity for 
argument, especially with randos at the pub. But it seems like coping and 
defense mechanisms like mansplaining allow others to avoid changing their minds 
with (2).

Another concept I've defended on this list is the vocal grooming hypothesis. If 
a lonely person engages a chatbot as a simple analogy to picking lice from 
others' fur, then their engagement with the bot probably lands squarely in (1) 
and (2). But if the person is simply an introverted hermit who has trouble 
co-constructing the world with others (i.e. *not* merely vocal grooming), then 
the chatbot does real work, allowing the antisocial misfit to do real work that 
could later be expressed in a form harvestable by others. I wonder what 
humanity could have harvested if Kaczynski or Grothendieck in his later years 
had had access to appropriately tuned chatbots.

--
glen


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Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/