from:"Florian Effenberger"


Hi Drew,

Disclaimer: I am wearing a double hat here, since I am in the board of 
directors at FrODeV, so I have to consider both sides (TDF and FrODeV).


drew wrote on 2011-09-20 14:51:


My understanding was that FrODev.org was accepting donations that could
be earmarked for TDF - if it has turned out that 100$ of said donations
were so earmarked, well that is hard on FrODev.org sure - the
association (FrODev.org) should address that internally.


legally, all money is donated to FrODeV, because it is the legal entity 
capable of accepting donations. SPI is another entity collecting 
donations for TDF.


Since donations are legally bound to certain reasons, FrODeV has set-up 
a separate account "for TDF". Quotation marks, because at the moment, 
TDF = FrODeV in legal terms, so both accounts belong to FrODeV. However, 
two accounts make it easier to track the donations for one specific 
reason, as we are legally bound.


The problem is: Nearly 100% of the donations FrODeV as legal entity 
received in the last months are for "the TDF". That means, that for 
other activities of FrODeV, like their own web site, event 
participation, production of merchandise and the like.



If FrODev.org is still paying bills for TDF our of the FrODev.org
working accounts I would ask Why and suggest they stop.


You'd better not ask this question, since otherwise, they may indeed 
stop. ;-)



This is important in my mind - TDF becoming a legal entity is, I hear,
getting close... so are you saying that it is not in shape to stand on
it's own feet, financially, at this point?


This doesn't solve the problem. The money needs to belong to one entity, 
someone needs to register domains and trademarks etc., and this entity 
currently is FrODeV. TDF cannot stand on its own feet as long as it is 
no legal entity.


So, if you ask FrODeV to stop, that means that *ALL* activities would 
need to be shut down *IMMEDIATELY*, until another organisation taking 
care 1. of donations/handling money and 2. acting as interim legal 
entity is found.



Is FrODev.org to continue some financial role after TDF is legal?


There are no fixed plans yet. FrODeV and TDF will be to separate 
entities and each has to find their positioning. Sure, FrODeV might 
donate to TDF and vice-versa, but this is a topic for the future.



Among other concerns (which I've edited out of this email), I am worried
about the precedent this sets.

It seems to me that there are numerous places in the current website
where a link to the FrODev.org website could be integrated and I would
be all for that - but the actual pitch for a donation, for FrODev.org,
should IMO be at that site.


I think most people are not aware what FrODeV does and how important 
this is for us.


Again: We have an association acting as interim legal entity. Without 
this association, *NOTHING* of what we do here at the moment would be 
possible. Due to the tremendous success of TDF, this association has a 
problem - all donations coming in are bound to TDF, since many people do 
not know the difference.


That's what we from FrODeV want to address, and therefore, we would like 
to add a donation button to (only) the German websites, so people are 
actually aware of that association.


Sure, this is an exception that others might ask for as well. However, 
people should keep in mind that FrODeV has a somewhat special role at 
the moment.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] donation button on German download page


...that should of course read:

That means, that for other activities of FrODeV, like their own web 
site, event participation, production of merchandise and the like, no 
money is available, and several FrODeV activities had to be cancelled or 
postponed this year.


Florian Effenberger wrote on 2011-09-20 15:19:


The problem is: Nearly 100% of the donations FrODeV as legal entity
received in the last months are for "the TDF". That means, that for
other activities of FrODeV, like their own web site, event
participation, production of merchandise and the like.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] donation button on German download page


Hi Drew,

drew wrote on 2011-09-20 17:06:


Uh - no - what I said was - Pay the TDF bills from the TDF account and
stop paying TDF bills from the FrODev specific (normal) account. Why
else was there a separate TDF account created, if not to use it just
this way?


that's what we already do. Anything that directly relates to TDF, like 
domains, hosting, trademarks and the like, is being paid from the TDF 
account. However, that does not solve the problem - all donations go to 
the TDF account and are therefore bound for TDF. Still, FrODeV has their 
own fees to pay, their own events to organize, and due the lack of 
incoming donations, which is a result of the (actually positive) amount 
of donations for TDF, this gets more and more complicated


I think FrODeV is in a rather different situation than any other NGO. 
Donors who want to do something good for LibreOffice in Germany donate 
money to the TDF account, as they want the Foundation in Germany. While 
I assume that other associations will also have less donations because 
of TDF being so prominent, I doubt they have zero donations.


So, wearing my FrODeV hat, and representing the association and its 
members, I must find options to limit that impact. Otherwise FrODeV will 
help setting up TDF, but then run into severe financial problems itself 
- and that's something, as member of the board of directors, which I 
cannot support, so we need to find solutions.



I would assume (note that word) that the first order of business for the
BOD after TDF becomes legal would be to take control of all TDF
financial matters, and that at this point FrODev (and it's members)
would cease to have any official role with TDF accounting.


That's my understanding, indeed. All legal affairs concerning TDF, 
including assets like domain names and trademarks, and the accounting, 
will be handed over to TDF. In the end, we have two separate entities, 
each of them responsible for their business. Of course, there will be 
strong links, but legally, they are separate.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] donation button on German download page


Hi,

drew wrote on 2011-09-20 16:46:


Just on this last point - to clarify - I would be in favor of links to
the FrODev.org website from pages on any of the TDF/LibreOffice
websites. I would be in favor of a button (mechanism) on the FrODev.org
websites for donations specifically for FrODev and exclusive from TDF.


FrODeV indeed mentions the TDF account on their donations page: 
http://www.frodev.org/spenden (at the bottom)



I would not be in favor of placing those donate buttons on
TDF/LibreOffice web pages directly.


Why?

I must say that I am a bit concerned that there seems to be a severe 
lack of understanding about FrODeV's role. FrODeV initially jumped in 
because no other entity was available to act as interim legal entity, 
manage finances and hold assets like domain names and trademarks. We 
tried that with a few entities, but it was impossible. So, FrODeV was 
available and supported without any bureaucracy.


I am not saying FrODeV should be treated special beacuse of this, or 
people have to be very thankful and thus generous with FrODeV's 
requests. What I am saying is that due to the fact that FrODeV offered 
their support, they now are in a rather complicated situation with 
regards to donations. Of course, nobody could foresee that, and of 
course, the time it takes for the legal entity to be set-up also 
contributes to that.


However, all other nonprofits have it easier, and FrODeV is only in the 
situation because it offered help. What I would indeed expect is people 
not letting FrODeV suffer, so to say, for their support, but rather work 
on a solution.


Wearing my FrODeV hat, being responsible for the interest of it and its 
members, I can only support the idea of helping TDF as long as FrODeV 
does not severely suffer from that - and right now, I want to find 
solutions to stop that suffering.



I would not be in favor of handing out literature with LibreOffice
branding that asked for FrODeve specific donations.


When FrODeV was the publisher, accountant, bank and legal entity behind 
all of that, and runs out of money because of the publishing entity it 
set up, things are rather different...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] donation button on German download page

2011-09-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

thanks for the feedback! We discussed this topic again during our last call.

Dividing the donations might be legally problematic, as well as adding 
some fee for handling. We are currently evaluating that, but in the 
meantime, Thorsten has sent this proposal to the steering-discuss list 
for voting:


http://www.mail-archive.com/steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg01660.html

In case you have comments, please discuss it *here* on this list, and 
let's only do SC discussion and voting on steering-discuss.


Florian

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[tdf-discuss] candidacy for BoD seat

2011-09-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

hereby, I'd like to announce my candidacy for a Board of Directors seat 
at The Document Foundation. Following-up the post to 
steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org, I'd like to give some more 
details and background about myself, and am happy to answer any 
questions you may have.


My name is Florian Effenberger, am 28 years of age, and I live in the 
very south of Germany, in the beautiful Allgäu, 100 km southwest of of 
Munich. I have been with TDF from the very beginning, serving in the 
Steering Committee, and mostly responsible for marketing and 
infrastructure, a field of activity where I also would like to 
contribute in the future. Previously, I have been involved with 
OpenOffice.org for seven years, for a long time being the marketing 
contact for Germany, and in the end the lead of the international 
marketing project and the distribution project.


I am also in the Board of Directors of the German association "Freies 
Office Deutschland e.V." (translated "Free Office Germany association", 
previously OpenOffice.org Deutschland e.V.), an entity set-up to 
organize and arrange local events and activities, where I have been 
serving since April 2008. FrODeV is also the interim legal entity for TDF.


In my "real life", so to say, I am in the process of finishing my 
studies and -- you may have guessed it given the long e-mails I usually 
write :) -- work part-time as a freelancer for marketing and as a 
freelance journalist, so I have no corporate affiliation at the moment.


My main motivation for the candidacy is to ensure the daily operation of 
the future Foundation, to provide a stable and secure framework not only 
for our worldwide community, but also giving safety and confidence to 
our corporate and private users around the globe.


So, now it's your turn -- I am happy to answer any questions that may 
occur. ;-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Question to BOD candidates

2011-09-24 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi Drew,

drew wrote on 2011-09-23 22:34:


I note that a number (perhaps all) of the folks declaring to run for a
BOD seat have mentioned their desire to help with the 'daily
operations'.

Would any (all perhaps) of you please describe what you perceive as
those daily operations to entail?


indeed, that's a good question. I tried to raise some awareness about 
that in my blog posting at 
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/07/13/what-does-it-mean-to-be-in-the-board-of-directors/


Basically, it is about having an overview what is going on, on taking 
care of legal matters (trademarks, ensuring our web presence fits the 
local laws, ensuring license compliance, tax stuff, contact with local 
authorities) and on keeping the whole Foundation running. This also 
involves taking care of the budget, ensuring we have enough reserve and 
do not run out of money.


It's very similar to what any manager of a corporation has to deal with, 
since TDF will have worldwide activities, and many stakeholders 
involved. You don't have to do everything yourself, but you have to wear 
the hat and have an overview. Like, if you are not firm in doing tax 
declarations on your own, you can contract an external professional - 
but you need to be aware you have to do so. ;)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] candidacy for BoD seat

2011-09-24 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi Drew,

drew wrote on 2011-09-24 17:04:


Thanks for the time and effort you have put in here and over the years,
I place great value, and am assured that others do as well, in your
contributions.


thank you very much for your kind words! In fact, it's really the 
community spirit and the feeling of a big, worldwide family that keeps 
all of us going every day. So it's not the merit of individual 
contributors, but the overall community that does so well, and I'm proud 
of being a part of it. :-) I couldn't do what I do if there was not such 
strong support and positive feelings from the community.



I would like to ask your opinion on how you see the relationship between
FrODev.org and TDF evolving after TDF becomes a legal entity.


(I'm speaking with my TDF hat on here, not with my FrODeV hat)

In fact, the German situation is somewhat special, since 1. the 
Foundation is about to be established in Germany and 2. the German 
association acts as legal interim entity.


As soon as the Foundation stands on its own feet, being a legal entity, 
all assets including trademarks, domains but also the money on the 
dedicated bank account will be handed over to the association. From that 
point on, TDF itself has full legal and organizational responsibility, 
so FrODeV and TDF will be two totally independent entities.


Especially for Germany, but also for all other countries, we need to 
work together on defining clear profiles on who does what. For the Paris 
conference, a discussion about local NGOs is planned, where some 
policies and thoughts will be discussed. It makes absolute sense to have 
local entities involved, as collecting and spending money inside your 
own country is much easier than doing that from another country. If, for 
example, in South Africa a LibreOffice event takes place, it makes much 
more sense to have a local association coordinate that legally and 
monetary, rather than a German foundation.


So, we will need to define responsibilites, and also see how donations 
on behalf of LibO/TDF will be handled.


While other countries have it a bit easier -- if someone from France 
wants to donate, going to the local NGO is a logical step, rather than 
to a German Foundation -- for Germany, it will always be a bit more 
complicated. If a German resident wants to donate, who should he donate 
to? FrODeV or TDF?


To answer that question, we need to define the profiles, so we can tell 
what money will be used for, so donors know which activities they support.


My idea is that local associations engage themselves for local projects, 
like FrODeV does for the QA weekend, project's weekend, local contests 
and conference, while TDF engages for global activities, like Hackfests, 
the Conference, central infrastructure and the like.


In a nutshell: It's something we indeed all have to work on for making 
TDF as well as local NGOs grow.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Postal address of TDF Members

2011-09-27 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

let me jump in with some explanations, as I can imagine that this notice 
might irritate some people.


Since you know from our bylaws, the members of TDF play a very central 
role and have lots of powers inside the future foundation -- just like 
what we promised, a community-driven project. These powers will also be 
legally fixed and can therefore be enforced, so the community's powers 
do not depend on the goodwill of the board or any entity, but they are 
legally enforcable. This is a major difference to the situation we had 
before, and a major improvement, since now finally all the powers are in 
the hands of the members, i.e. of our community.


Many of you will remember that this was also one of the reasons to go 
for a German Foundation, because this helps us in ensuring these 
community powers.


The members' addresses are required for TDF itself for administrative 
tasks, e.g. in order to to verify the membership or to get in touch with 
members in case the e-mail address becomes invalid, but also for the 
authorities, because they can ultimately ensure the foundation follows 
the will of its members -- for which they need to know how to reach 
these members.


I of course understand and do agree that in these times of data mining 
web sites and corporations, people are very sensitive in handing out 
their data.


The e-mail by Sophie was meant as an advance notification that soon, we 
need to ask for your data because of the reasons stated above, and that 
we will provide mechanisms for the secure transfer of this data, 
together with explanations and a dedicated privacy policy. You are *not* 
required to send in your data right now.


So, sorry for this rush and the confusion -- seeing it positive, it 
means that the foundation status makes great progress and that soon 
things will be hopefully finalized. (I will, of course, blog on the 
progress soon.)


So, stay tuned for soon we will be sending out detailed information on 
this topic. For any questions, feel free to ask them in this thread, as 
I am sure a dedicated FAQ on that topic will be quite helpful.


And now: Happy birthday, LibreOffice, and thanks to everyone for being 
with us! :-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Postal address of TDF Members

2011-09-28 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Volker Merschmann wrote on 2011-09-28 10:59:

Do I understand it correct that we mustn't send the adress by now and
a more secure transmission system will be installed?


exactly - sorry for the confusion ;)

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Gerrit migration

2011-10-20 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 2011-10-19 18:29:


I just setup a a page for coordinating and tracking the status of the migration
to gerrit. While this is mostly a developer topic, other teams are invited to
contribute to this if they identify stuff to be done in their domain (as a
developer, I might be blind to those):

  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/GerritMigration


thanks for organizing this!

The machine is basically ready, I am just a bit swamped with work this 
week. I will try to give you access over the weekend or the latest at 
the beginning of next week.


A few comments:
- I'm not experienced with PostgreSQL, so if anyone can take care of it, 
that would be good.
- We can do a regular PostgreSQL backup in our backup system, with a 
full database dump.

- I'll set-up a basic Apache setup, feel free to work on that if needed.
- You will get an official TDF SSL certificate, by a known CA.
- Postfix is installed, so you can send e-mails as you like.

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Unsubscribe

2011-10-28 Thread Florian Effenberger

To unsubscribe from the digest, send an empty e-mail to 
discuss+unsubscribe-dig...@documentfoundation.org and follow the 
instructions sent back.


Further details are available at 
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Hope that helps,
Florian

S. wrote on 2011-10-28 20:21:



On 10/28/2011 01:01 PM, discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

Topics (messages 7838 through 7847):


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

2011-10-29 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Stefan Weigel wrote on 2011-10-29 11:35:

It´s not a matter of low respect. It´s just not necessary to mess
around and create yet another forum, since there are already
well-settled forums, driven by the community, that fully cover
LibreOffice.;-)


the points raised by Italo are not invalid, though. There has been a lot 
of FUD spreading around at certain groups, and that is not only ashaming 
for those groups, but also very embarassing for us. A good home for a 
forum requires that the involved people are not ranting against TDF and 
spreading false assumptions.


Apart from that, the forums topic is indeed a "hot" one that has often 
made it to our agenda items. I must confess that right now I am indeed 
in favor of having our own forums. It would not only put an end to these 
discussions, but also be something official that we can not only support 
marketing- but also infrastructure-wise.


Let's see what opinions and thoughts come out of this thread. :-)

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Good bye to all of the community members knowing my name...

2011-10-29 Thread Florian Effenberger


Dear Bernhard,

Bernhard Dippold wrote on 2011-10-29 01:24:


After quite an amount of time and a lot of work for LibreOffice and
OpenOffice.org before I have to tell you that I'll have to stop my
activities in this great community.


it comes with gread sadness to read those lines. Over the years, you not 
only have become one of the most respected contributors to our 
community, but also a very good, true and close friend to me personally.


Like usual, your words carry lots of wisdom with them, and the "real 
life", family, friends, those so close to us, are much more important 
than any free software project I could imagine, and so I not only 
understand, but really do respect your decision.


Thank you for being here with us for so many years, and thank you for 
being a friend! The doors are always open in this project, you always 
have a place here, and independent from your work in the community, I 
really do hope we meet again soon.


Take good care, and thanks for all you did for us!
Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

2011-10-29 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-10-29 14:33:

I am more then willing to volunteer a section on my forums for
Libreoffice and the TDF discussion and support as well. I am using phpbb
for the forums though :(


thanks a lot for that offer. If we, however, decide for TDF forums, I 
then would like to host our own ones, within our infrastructure.


We have other choices, of course, one of them being to use one of the 
existing forums and appoint them as "official". As I understand it, the 
reason of this thread is to find out whether we should go for hosting 
our own ones.


If we decide to, I would be more than happy of course of having you as a 
contributor there. ;-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

2011-10-30 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-10-29 14:55:

If you opt to name one as an official TDF mirror it wont take me a
second to setup a TDF section and LO section for use.


what is the URL of your existing forum, so I can have a look?


I am wondering though if you go for self hosted solution i am wondering
instead of using a seperate user login to login to the forums if one has
an account to edit the wiki lets say can that be used for existing
users, as well as allowing those users who dont edit the wiki to sign up
for an account through the forums and end up as contributors as well for
the wiki if they need it down the road?


Single sign-on is indeed something I'd like to see soon, but there are 
no concrete plans as of now. One option would be OpenID, another one an 
LDAP connection - let's see what we can come up with. ;-)


Florian

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[tdf-discuss] Status quo on the Foundation, October 2011

2011-10-30 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

It has been a while since I have blogged about the Foundation status, 
but the Steering Committee have been very active on this topic in the 
meantime. Now that we are handing over to the new Board of Directors, it 
is good to document where we have reached.


First, we are delighted that the elections of the first BoD are now 
official. As promised, the Steering Committee has ceased its existence, 
and the TDF members voted on the new BoD in an open, transparent and 
meritocratic way. Gratifyingly, the Members have elected the core of the 
former Steering Committee onto the Board and I’m thus able to use “we” 
interchangeably in this report! The next election to take place will be 
the one of the Membership Committee, so expect an official announcement 
on that soon.


On to the status of incorporation. As previously planned, we approached 
three German federal states, and got very valuable feedback from them. 
One of our three candidates showed very strong support and is most 
likely to be the final location for The Document Foundation. We don’t 
want to pre-empt any result and therefore will not communicate the 
state’s name in public, but the secret will hopefully be revealed very soon.


We have included many improvements into the legally binding statutes, 
based on extensive input from many sources. We are right now in the 
process of translating the German legalese into English, so our new 
Board of Directors can make a final review. Based on the Board’s 
decision, we will hand over the documents to the authorities and hope 
for a positive reply. As soon as we receive that, the legal setup of the 
Foundation will be started and we will finally be incorporated.


We’d like to take the chance to respond to some questions on the process 
of legally establishing our entity. It has indeed taken much longer than 
we had initially expected, and we have to admit that our estimation on 
the necessary timeframe was wrong. However, the whole lengthy process 
has been educational and has led to a much more considered outcome. 
Together with the community, we have worked extensively on bylaws we 
wanted to have reflected in the legal entity of the Foundation.


In contrast to the the former model of having a single corporate sponsor 
– and different to what many other legal vehicles could provide – the 
Foundation we are creating guarantees endurance, safety and stability 
for the whole community, both for end-users and for private as well as 
corporate contributors. It also gives the community very strong rights. 
While previously – legally speaking – any community rules were 
arbitrary, the rights given to community members in this new model are 
not only binding, but legally enforceable by every single member.


Again: The rights we promised will be legally binding and enforceable by 
our members. There are not many – if any at all – communities giving 
such strong rights to their members.  Creating such an intentionally 
durable and strong structure from the beginning is uncommon and we found 
that this has been something innovative and new for our advisors as well 
as the authorities, which has led to the slow progress we’ve encountered.


We invested lots of time to express fundamental and legally binding 
rights for our community and that task has admittedly proved enormous. 
But the time invested so far is justified by the goals we wanted to 
achieve from day one – an open, transparent and meritocratic 
organization, independent from any corporate sponsor and designed 
specifically for the purposes of The Document Foundation rather than 
borrowed from elsewhere. We are sure spending this time has been very 
much worth it.


Florian

(Original blogpost with links: 
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/10/30/status-quo-on-the-foundation-october-2011/)


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Re: [steering-discuss] freezing membership applications


Hi,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2011-10-30 17:31:


I do not see the conflict.
Either way these MC members running for re-election can approve new
member before the freeze-date
Either way these MC members cannot benefit from approving membership
after the freeze (they cannot stuff the ballot since anyone approved
post freeze would not be eligible for that election)


that is true, indeed... however, there still might be assumptions like 
"member XYZ" was approved/disapproved to get a better voting result. I 
agree, it's only in a very complicated theory. ;-)


Otherwise, it's mostly a logistic issue. If we can ensure that those 
becming members after the freeze date cannot vote, I am fine with 
leaving the application open, even if I consider closing it down 
"cleaner". But then, Michael has a point, that it's the second shutdown 
already.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Just a question


Hi,

Jean-Paul Ghys wrote on 2011-10-30 00:41:

But first a statement !Godammit !It is awfully difficult to get in touch with 
the LibreOffice
 Foundation !Remember:"Kiss" !This is not a claim. Just wishng to 
understand. And speaking in


it is not. ;-) There is a contact section on the website, and all our 
mailing lists are listed in public.



 a language which is not my mother language.Can you understand this ?I 
was just saying - but this ismy fifth try using different
   email addreses- that :"I
 cannot understand how comes Sophie Gautier has no mandate
 whatsoever.To my knowledge, she has always been from the very 
beginning a
 very active member first of the OpenOffice community and, from
 its very beginning, from the LibreOfficeFoundation.Remember: I'am not 
questioning the votes, just asking a
 question.Sincerely yours,Jean-Paul Ghys"


Sophie is very active, and she contributed a lot to the being of the 
foundation and to where we stand today. She's included in all major 
decisions. ;-) The fact that she has no BoD role is simple - she didn't 
run for elections.


Maybe she will run for elections of the MC, but I don't know.

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question


Hi Ken,

Ken Springer wrote on 2011-10-31 17:28:


I won't go into details here, I suspect such a discussion probably
should be on the website list and/or done privately in a design discussion.

I will say this... If I had contracted the programmers of LO's website
for an easy to use website, the only way I would pay anything for what
*I* see on the site, is if the payment was court ordered.

I wish I felt differently about the site. :-(


well, I agree that the TDF website itself is a bit out of date and needs 
work, no doubt. Especially the mailing lists are somehow buried in other 
content. The LibO sites, however, look much better to me and also 
reference to the mailing lists.


About generally getting in contact with TDF, I think that's easy: 
www.documentfoundation.org -> Contact -> click on one of the mail addresses


Any valueable feedback is welcome, of course. Regarding the TDF website, 
I indeed plan on calling the website mailing list soon to rework the 
content.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?


Hello,

thanks everyone for your feedback and your kind offers to help, that's 
really much appreciated!


As for which type to use, I must say that a "normal" forum is the only 
way, IMHO. We've been experimenting with Nabble, and the result has been 
rather mixed. People prefer a forum they know, nothing else. At least 
based on my experience.


There are several forums running. What I would like to have is one 
"official" LibO forum, either done by us or someone else, that is open 
for all languages, and run by a group that does not have members who 
openly show hostility towards TDF. I am not saying that everyone does 
so, but at least I have heard from some forums, where definitely FUD was 
spread, and this leaves me with bad feelings.


What I took from this thread is, that there are two options: One 
de.openoffice.org, and the other one the LibreOffice forum.


Anyone already got in touch with those folks? IIRC, there had been 
discussions, with some groups, and that didn't work out - but I must 
confess I don't know which ones.


Honestly, my preference would be to have our own forum and see if it 
works. If not, we tried it, and we don't lose that much.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question

2011-11-01 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi Ken,

Ken Springer wrote on 2011-11-01 00:07:


About generally getting in contact with TDF, I think that's easy:
www.documentfoundation.org -> Contact -> click on one of the mail
addresses


This site I didn't know existed! I wonder if the same is true for
Jean-Paul. Quite often, in the different mailing lists, you will see The
Document Foundation mentioned in a message.

I have always gone here, http://www.libreoffice.org/, to get information
about LO. And of course, at the top of the pages, the The Document
Foundation is listed directly below Libre Office. Try to find a link to
The Document Foundation here. :-)


indeed, some nice button leading to the TDF site might be of help. 
Cc'ing the website list on this.



I've only spent a few minutes on the TDF site, now, initial reaction is,
very nice. Although I may have found something not quite right. But,
that's for another thread/day. :-)

The LibreOffice site should be as well done.


In case you want to support us, help is always welcome over at the 
website list, and contributions are very much appreciated. :-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?

2011-11-02 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Stefan Weigel wrote on 2011-11-02 11:13:

Ok. The forum will sure have a search function, just like every
forum has, right? Could our new forum combine automatically three
searches at once?

(1) Show the matches inside our forum
(2) Show the matches within the ML archives
(3) Show Google matches


totally depends on the forum we install and its options. In case we go 
for an own solution, there are many options, no decision on any software 
yet.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?

2011-11-02 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-11-01 13:32:

The other day you had asked me for my url to the forums, and I have not
heard back from you in regards to what you think. I was looking at the
administrative control panel of phpbb and I would be able to install
other language packs.

Hope I can help out with a contribution such as this.


your offer is very nice, thank you indeed for that! However, I think we 
wither use an existing forum with LibreOffice content, or install one on 
our own infrastructure. That gives just more flexibility. I would 
welcome you as an admin for our own forum then, of course.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

2011-11-03 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Ken Springer wrote on 2011-11-02 22:48:

If you prefer your help system to be a forum, that's available through
the Nabble interface and Gmane.


sadly, Nabble is not seen as forum at all. I don't know why, but many - 
especially novice - users have complained and do not use Nabble. My wish 
was indeed to have this forum-style gateway to have access to the same 
content with two interfaces, but it obviously didn't work out, which is 
why I am considering a "real" forum.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?


Hi,

Christian Lohmaier wrote on 2011-11-03 16:17:


You cannot move threads to other topics, you cannot edit messages
afterwards, you cannot delete posts, you cannot mark posts as sticky
or "resolved", etc.


indeed, good points. However, I am not sure if this is what the majority 
of users would do anyways (althought it's agreeably a nice feature), but 
I think it's simply a "It doesn't look like a forum I know"-thing that 
keeps people from using it.


When people complained we have nothing like a forum, and I pointed them 
to Nabble, all I got was a "This is not a forum", without further 
explanation, which makes nailing down the problem a bit troublesome. ;-)



If LO is going to have an own forum, then there shall be a bunch of
moderators that are to ensure to keep the different topics organized,
ensure that a certain level of posting discipline is respected, make
sure that the repeated questions or spam-posts to just put an older
topic further up the list are kept to a minimum. Forum-Sheriffs if you
want to use a loaded term.


Yes, I agree. Moderators in forums are even more important than on 
mailing lists, because forums will attract more casual users to whom the 
term Netiquette does not ring any bell, usually. ;-)


It would be great, in case we go with own forums, to have a handful of 
moderators right from the beginning. If not, I would even be willing to 
see how things develop and have the guts to just do it. In case the 
forum gets just messy and has to be shut down, c'est la vie, but we at 
least tried it.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?


Hi,

Marc Paré wrote on 2011-11-04 18:06:


Once the forums is definitely OK'd and once the decision on whether it
will be an EN forums only (which is what I think you are talking about)
or multiple languages, we should just make a call for help on all lists.


I definitely plan, should we go with own forums, to have them 
multi-language, to serve all our users at one place. :-)



If we are talking about a multiple languages forums, then we should only
support those where the mailing lists are most busy. We could then
branch out to other languages once moderator support is available.


Sounds good.


I could also help out with moderating if need be.


Thanks a lot!
I am still waiting for some feedback from others, to see where we should 
be going.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] phpbb for the official LO forums


Hi,

Marc-André Laverdière wrote on 2011-11-04 19:23:

can we please try the stack exchange way and see what users think of it?


many users have made *very* clear to me several times that they want a 
"real" forum they know, like phpBB. Otherwise, I would have simply gone 
with Nabble, so I'm a bit hesitant...


Florian

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[board-discuss] No call tomorrow

Hello,

just to avoid misunderstandings: There will be no BoD call tomorrow, since 
we're still voting on the new times. In case you (BoD and deputies) haven't 
voted yet, please do so, so we can announce the new times next week.

Enjoy your weekend,
Florian

*** This message has been sent from my tablet. Please excuse the possible 
briefness.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

2011-11-07 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Tom Hart wrote on 2011-11-07 02:11:

Maybe this looks more like a forum?

http://arkanis.de/projects#nntp-forum
https://github.com/arkanis/nntp-forum

The key idea here is to have an etablished system newsgroup under the
hood (for the more "conserative" users) and a fancy webinterface forum
(for the "new" generation). So to enable exchange between those two user
groups (the author also writes about the ides behind this software on
his blog) - and free choice of reader for everyone.


thanks for this proposal! Indeed, an interesting approach, as in the 
beginning, I was also thinking about setting up an NNTP server (which 
could even interact with the mailing lists).


However, the clear feedback I got from users it that they want "a forum 
they know", i.e. phpBB or something in these terms. That's why I am so 
hesitant against other solutions, although technology-wise, they would 
make sense.


It's about the users and their needs, and even if we see things 
different, we should follow their demands to give them a good 
experience, IMHO.


But thanks for throwing this in!

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?

Hi,

of course, there is no need to hurry, but why not start (in case we want to go 
for it) now, so we have enough time to evaluate and decide? Better than doing 
things in a rush later on. :-) The topic itself is not new, it has in fact been 
up already since nearly the beginning of TDF.

Florian

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Cor Nouws  schrieb:

>Hi *,
>
>Cor Nouws wrote (29-10-11 00:16)
>
>> Now I wonder: what about the future of forums for LibreOffice?
>> It looks convenient to have all at one place. On the other side:
>> LibreOffice will grow to be different more and more. Different code
>> base, more functions.
>> So apart from that it is maybe not fair ;-) to profit too much on the
>> work of the forums at Apache (when life), it will be increasingly
>> insufficient for our own users.
>> Well, that is one way I could look at it.
>> But of course having own LibreOffice forums ask resources and
>especially
>> time..
>>
>> What do other people think about this?
>
>So looking at the contributions to this discussion so far - many thanks
>
>for those :-) - I see various subjects:
>- about technical possibilities;
>- some with politics;
>- and the question itself.
>
>Reading the various opinions, sooner or later, there will be fora, that
>
>are clearly recognised as linked to LibreOffice. Indeed, it is clear 
>that there are various already in different languages.
>
>For some time, I could personally live quite well with a forum that is 
>clearly, visibly, independent serving LibreOffice and other suites. 
>Since suggestions made in that direction seem to be more political than
>
>technical feasible, I can leave that illusion.
>So the questions seems more: when are we going to create our own, then
>if.
>
>Then there is the question about the technical background. I see lots
>of 
>useful ideas and info on those. Obviously the solution must scale and 
>allow for various languages.
>Is there any need to hurry?
>A first thing that could be done anyway, is creating the 'portal' to
>the 
>forum, the link, on the website, so that is clearly shows our intention
>
>and where we are heading for?
>
>Best
>
>-- 
>  - Cor
>  - http://nl.libreoffice.org
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

Hi,

ads, independent to what they advertise for, are basically a no go for me.

Florian

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briefness.



Augustine Souza  schrieb:

>On 11/8/11, drew  wrote:
>...
>>
>> Right, LibreOfficeForum.org was almost first out of the gate, but
>there
>> has been a certain amount of resistance to referring users to the
>site
>> from the main projects web properties.
>>
>...
>
>en.libreofficeforum.org is not too shabby at all and would serve the
>purpose.
>
>If I remember there was some opposition to Google ads featuring
>competing software but that's really a non-issue.
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?

Hi,

maybe I put it the wrong way. Of course, there are always services that are 
inly available with ads, then we sometimes have no choice. However, when 
thinking about eithe modifying existing services that have ads, to fit our 
needs, like for a forum, or to setup our own without ads, I have a very strong 
preference for thelatter one.

Or, otherwise said, I would only accept ads when ther is no other choice, it ks 
always the last choice for me.

That,of course,is only my personal opinion and not binding. :-)

Florian

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drew  schrieb:

>On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 15:34 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> ads, independent to what they advertise for, are basically a no go
>for me.
>> 
>Howdy Florian
>
>
>
>right, well I have no doubt of the sincerity behind that comment, but
>it
>does get a bit dicey in practice IMO.
>
>For instance very few had a problem with pointing directly to the
>official Document Foundation and LibreOffice pages on Facebook - ads.
>
>Document Foundation and LibreOffice twitter accounts - ads.
>
>TDF/Libo G+ pages - no ads, yet.
>
>Alright, so a simple aversion to on-line ads is not the only
>determining
>factor, exceptions are made all the time.
>
>This is not a way to argue in favor of treating LibreOfficeForum.org or
>lo-portal.de/forum as 'official' sites, but I would like to again
>suggest that it, alone, is not a reason to in effect shun them either.
>
>IIRC Micheal Meeks, in one of his presentations, suggested a goal of
>200
>Million users for the LibreOffice suite - I think that is a laudable
>goal, and also believe that it will not be attained without this wealth
>of extended, external, activity. 
>
>Which of course if not exactly on-topic and I will get directly back to
>topic in reply to an earlier email but for this point - I hope we can
>find some useful way to incorporate all the energy coming from these
>auxiliary effots - it's not easy I know but I think it will be well
>worth the effort.
>
>Now - off to write the on-topic email,
>
>//drew  
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?


Hi,

Cor Nouws wrote on 2011-11-08 21:29:

Indeed, luckily not all topics are urgent :-)


to be clear on this: I think that it becomes more and more urgent. Based 
on the feedback I get, many users really demand an official forum, and 
the mailing lists and their gateways do not work out for them, so it is 
time to start thinking - which we do on this list right now. :)


And yes, even if I didn't manage yet to reply to all mails, I am still 
very much in favor of hosting TDF official forums for all projects and 
languages.


Florian

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[tdf-discuss] [POLL] own forums

2011-11-10 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

sadly, I didn't manage yet to read all messages, but I will and will 
reply to. But I think (correct me if I'm wrong) we have reached a stage 
where we should maybe have a quick poll on whether to go with our own 
forums or not. If yes, we then can later on decide which software to 
use, branding details etc. Right now, I'd just like to have clarified 
whether we go with own forums in general.


So, a quick +1/-1 in this thread would be nice to get an overview over 
people's opinion. ;-)


Florian

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[board-discuss] GMANE works again

2011-11-10 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

GMANE works again for this list. It is still available at 
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.steering-discuss


Florian

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[tdf-discuss] official forums

2011-11-11 Thread Florian Effenberger

Hello,

thanks a lot to everyone for their great and creative contribution to
the discussion, which I consider really fruitful. Even if I didn't reply
to every message, I read them all.

It is already rather clear, that there is a real overwhelming support
for having our own forums. I counted only one or two -1, everyone else
was in favor of hosting forums on our own.

So, I am very much in favor of moving forward. I'd like to continue that
discussion on the website list, since it technically belongs there, so
I'd like to invite everyone to participate in the discussion on the
*website* list.

The next steps to me are:

1. Determine which software to use. Some proposals and compilations have
come in, namely:

a. phpBB

b. http://www.simplemachines.org

c. http://stackoverflow.com (Alex will provide a VM to test that soon.)

d. http://arkanis.de/projects#nntp-forum#

e.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software_%28PHP%29

f.
http://www.forummatrix.org/compare/bbPress+FluxBB+FUDforum+Invision-Power-Board+MyBB+Phorum+phpBB+punBB+SMF+vBulletin

2. Determine whether we will need our own VM, or whether we can host it
directly at our machines. (I prefer to have a VM for testing, but then
move it to our machines, since we don't have that many available VMs and
I'd like to have them for testing stuff.)

With regards to step #1, I am very much in favor of keeping in mind that
most users were neither happy with Nabble nor GMANE, and if we want to
lower the burden and raise acceptance, we really should use something
they know. Remember, it's not about us, who are familiar with mailing
lists, but about casual users.

Looking forward to continuing the discussion ;-)

Florian

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[tdf-discuss] Re: official forums

2011-11-12 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Olivier R. wrote on 2011-11-12 10:02:

You should also have a look on bbPress :
http://bbpress.org/
http://bbpress.org/forums/

With this forum, you can tag threads, which is very interesting to classify
topics.


let's move over the discussion to the website list. I prefer people 
volunteering for having a look at systems and summing up what they can 
do for TDF. We can only consider those systems someone investigated, so 
- volunteers? ;-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] user forums ?

2011-11-14 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Christophe Strobbe wrote on 2011-11-14 11:11:


I would like to add a few more accessibility considerations:
* If phpBB is chosen for the forum, please take a look at
<http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17254>:
   "An accessible style for PhpBB".
   (You can also get in touch with the owners of AccessifyForum,
which is based on phpBB.)
* Another forum solution with good accessibility out of the box is
   PunBB <http://punbb.informer.com/>.


we should move over this discussion to the website@ list, as people are 
collecting the forum software there.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribe

2011-11-16 Thread Florian Effenberger


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Eric Olander wrote on 2011-11-15 23:37:

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-11-25 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

FYI: It was not me asking for that change, nor Friedrich, but I'd like 
to reply to this:


NoOp wrote on 2011-11-25 23:11:

Why not experiment with the moderators or test list instead? Why the
discuss list?


Because a real test can only work on a larger list, where we see the 
impact...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-11-29 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Michael Meeks wrote on 2011-11-28 16:45:


Cool ! :-) having said that, I'd prefer it to be tried on a less
high-volume list, where we could see the utility of attracting more
participants (personally).


I wanted to start on a high-volume list to see the impact. But looking 
at the replies, I think we should indeed vary from list to list. For 
discuss@ maybe it is not desired...


Anyways, which lists would you like to start trying it on?


To me a huge benefit of not reply-to mangling is to allow new people to
interact with the list (and get replies to their mail) without being
subscribed; that provides an easy on-ramp into the project, and


IMHO that causes lots of problem. I see myself purging files from the 
archive because people did not know they were posting in public. And I 
see moderators moderating lots of messages... both not desirable. ;-) 
But maybe I'm exaggerating here, and giving it a try definitely shows 
the results, so let's do it.



Of course, I would expect it to be opposed by people who are already
members of a given community, and like not getting personal replies to
messages in threads they start.


I will adjust my filters soon, because getting replies in the inbox 
instead of in the list folder is annoying. But, ah, I think there is no 
real ideal solution to things. :)


Florian

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[board-discuss] BoD call tomorrow

2011-11-29 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

as a quick reminder: The next scheduled BoD call will be tomorrow,

Wednesday, November 30th,
at 1600 UTC

Please add your agenda items in time to

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Meetings

where you can also find the dial-in details.

Looking forward to hearing you,
Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-11-30 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

NoOp wrote on 2011-11-30 05:02:

I disagree. The moderators list is active, you guys post there regularly
- try it on yourselves before creating a "why is this happening" panic
on this list? Keep in mind that this list is also used by general users:


well, I don't want to disable the current mangling at all - but if we 
want to evaluate the impact, I thought it make sense to do it on a 
larger list. A list with a few subscribers and basically no e-mails is 
not an ideal test object...


But now it looks like the mangling change will only be relevant for a 
few lists, indeed.



Better yet, try it on the dev list as this seems to be where the request
is originating from.


That change is already in effect on the dev list, but I think it's not 
comparable to other lists at LibO. :)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-tomangling

2011-12-01 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Harold Fuchs wrote on 2011-11-30 11:59:


I think the idea that a simple "Reply" should only go the OP is very poor:


I personally do agree...


Perhaps for "expert" groups like Dev, the idea *might* be OK but for the
lists designed for general support I really don't think it is sensible.


...and so I think we indeed should choose the lists where this applies 
to carefully.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-02 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-02 18:42:

The question is, where to go regarding communication style.
reply-to mangling hereby is*one*  thing to look at.


just today, one of our admins replied again directly only to me. If I 
didn't spot this, and replied again to the list, the valueable 
information he posted would have been lost forever...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [resume] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-05 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-05 23:48:

As there was no substantial support for this concern - at least no
*visible*  one - and even Florian, the one promoting the issue, didn't
consider it a good thing (where I don't understand, why he's promoting
it) I propose*to stop it*  for now.


well, Michael asked for it repeatedly, and I promised him that we will 
investigate the issue. So, I'll wait for his enumeration of lists where 
he thinks this change is necessary, and we can evaluate the impact there.


I think we've been discussing this long enough, so let's simply try it 
out. (tm)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-09 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Michael Meeks wrote on 2011-12-06 09:40:

The good idea of testing it out somewhere
comes from the sysadmin team, and it seems we're iterating towards a
consensus that the discuss list is perhaps not the best place to start
before any change took place;-)


:-)
I like your idea to use the website list however, since people there are 
usually much experienced in using technology and e-mail.


So, what do others think about that? Disabling reply-to mangling (after 
announcement) on the website list for a while and see the results?


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-12 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-11 15:22:

So well, I've some questions:
- What makes the website list more suitable for this test than this one?
- What are the criteria making this test successful or fail?


nothing, but we have been discussing for weeks now, and I would like to 
test out the impact of reply-to mangling. Really, it's been now eight 
weeks (!) that has been in the queue at least, so... let's do it and try 
it out.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-14 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-14 23:56:

So go ahead! Enjoy the impact You might cause. Enjoy counting corpses.


Corpse's Bride is a nice movie, but I guess you are not talking about 
it. ;-)


So, my point is the following:

- I have people strongly asking for disabling reply-to mangling, e.g. on 
the website list.


- I have people strongly asking for leaving reply-to mangling as is.

- So, whatever I do, someone will be upset.

- I myself would like to keep reply-to mangling as is, as I have set it 
up for good reasons.


- We have been discussing that issue for two months now without any 
clear result, it still is that some people want it, some don't.


So, what shall I do? Flip a coin?

Nobody really knows what happens when we enable it. So, my proposal was, 
to try it out - after announcing this test - on a list where it was 
demanded, and where people are probably technically savvy enough to deal 
with it.


What exactly is wrong about this proposal? What did I miss? This 
question is serious, no pun intended. I really feel like sitting between 
two chairs, and try to find the best compromise possible.


Again, people left to me ask for leaving things as is, people right to 
me ask for changing them. What now?


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-15 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Tanstaafl wrote on 2011-12-15 13:06:


So, my proposal is to DEFER this decision until after mailman3 is
released, migrate the lists to mailman3, then simply document how
individual list subscribers can choose their poison.

I'd also suggest that the DEFAULT be to enable reply-to mangling, and
explain to the user how they can change this in the welcom emessage that
is sent.


you and Uwe have good points here. The rationale behind me pushing for 
an evaluation now is that the clear feedback was


1. we want the developers to be more involved on the non-developers lists

2. the developers strongly prefer a to have no reply-to mangling

So, in terms of inclusion, I wanted to do that change right now, but, 
well, if there's not even support for a "let's try it", I don't know 
what to do...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-19 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2011-12-15 23:56:

As well the proposal of Charles (Tanstaafl) of having a choice
while subscribing is worth considering. Maybe there is a possibility to
have a further subscribing mode with mlmmj. If possible, this might be
not ideal, but should be no problem for a dev mind. But this is nothing
to be in effect within days.


indeed. I don't know if this approach makes sense - it causes more 
system load (because mails have to be processed twice), and needs 
development time.



The good news: Since the beginning there is a volunteer from the admin
team, happy to solve the issue. Not withdrawing his offer (well,
thinking several times about it).

- it's me! :o)) I'm in favor of switching off reply-to mangling, but
without hurting valueable contributors, we urgently need.

As I'm tired now, I'll stress that more in a (near ;o))) future mail and
as well the following questions.


Well, since it's Christmas soon anyways, and I am busy with "real life" 
things ;), I will keep my hands off this topic anyways for the moment. I 
still think we should do something soon, as the developers have been 
asking for a change for months, two of them we discussed - but I myself 
won't have time before next year, so let's leave it at that for now...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-19 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Tanstaafl wrote on 2011-12-19 19:13:

My quggestion was not to code this from scratch im mlmmj, it was to wait
until Mailman3 is released, and simply migrate all of the lists to it -
which fits in well with your last statement:


I think migrating to Mailman 3 will take a while, since it requires lots 
of efforts to switch our mail system, I guess. Apart from that, Mailman 
3 has not been released yet, so I would consider such an option to be 
realistic - if we want it at all - within 6 to 12 months.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] overall communication guidelines and reply-to mangling

2011-12-19 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Tanstaafl wrote on 2011-12-19 20:41:


Well... the first beta is scheduled to be released in January, so I
imagine it will be rtm by mid year, so if you were to start working on
the logistics and infrastructure, and start a dialog with the mailman
devs on how to migrate the users/settings from mlmmj to mailman, that
you could be ready to go as soon as the release happens...


let's see. At the moment, to be honest, we have so many important tasks 
to work on, that migrating a working and existing system to something 
different that involves a lot of work doesn't sound too attracting to me. ;)


My plan would rather be to wait until Mailman is final, wait some time 
until other people made hands-on experience, and then consider it again. 
However, my personal timeline for that is set to 6 to 12 months, as I 
really don't consider that important, and there are dozens of important 
tasks on our agenda.


Others may have a different point of view, of course.

Florian

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[tdf-discuss] Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

2011-12-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Dear community, dear users, dear friends and dear colleagues,

the end of the year is approaching with big steps, and it seems that 
2011 passed within just a short glimpse of time. It feels as if it was 
just yesterday that we celebrated New Year's Eve, but looking back at 
all that has happened, it becomes evident that the last 12 months were 
full of activity, and a lot has happened.


We started The Document Foundation and the LibreOffice project in the 
fall of 2010, with big visions, and with high hopes. The first weeks 
have been exciting, they have been thrilling, and we have rarely seen 
such community movement, so many people following the same goal. One of 
our strongest wishes for 2011 has been to keep this incredible momentum. 
Not only did we achieve that, but all the good has even grown, way 
beyond our imagination, and that is something that makes us particularly 
proud.


2011 was the year of our first stable release, and many more were about 
to follow. Today, over 30 million people use LibreOffice in 109 
languages, a software developed by 40 core developers and a total of 
over 300 active developers plus 280 localizers. Probably the biggest 
achievement is the fact that 230 of those developers are totally new, 
have never been contributing code to the free office suite before, and 
were attracted by our open, transparent, meritocratic and inclusive 
community. Over 16.000 mailing list subscribers are on our 100 mailing 
lists, and TDF now counts 138 members. Sponsored and supported by a 
strong and well-balanced Advisory Board, the community is prospering 
more than we ever could hope for.


However, it is not about numbers. It is about the good feeling and every 
single contributor who makes the community to what it is today. 
Especially in times of global communication, it is the human beings that 
make our online and offline lifes to what they are, it is the human 
beings who fill them with life. To us, the community is like a big 
family, with good and personal friends worldwide, people we not only 
share the same passion with, but also a deep personal friendship with 
many of them. Our first annual event, the LibreOffice Conference that 
took place in Paris this October, was not only a successful event and a 
brilliant conference, but even more, it was the meeting of friends, of a 
united family. Thinking back of where we stood one and a half years ago, 
and seeing where we stand now, it still looks like all of you did the 
impossible.


What we have seen up to today is just the beginning, the beginning of 
something exciting, and the beginning of something good. In Paris, we 
announced the next level for LibreOffice, with the work on the Android 
and iOS ports moving forward, and with an exciting browser-based version 
being developed. More and more organizations, corporations and 
governments join our efforts, because they strongly believe in 
LibreOffice being the future for free office suites, and they firmly 
believe in the power of a community so diverse but so united, so global 
but so close together, so polyglot but still speaking the same language, 
like the LibreOffice community.


During this year, we also learned a lot due to the constructive feedback 
we received from many users and the community around the world. We 
listened carefully and we tried to improve things where possible. 
Working together with you, our users, made us stronger and helped to 
make the software and the project even better. This, for sure, is a path 
we will follow also in 2012.


After a successful year, it is time to be thankful for what has been 
achieved, to be proud of the milestones reached, and to take time to 
envision the challenges of the next year.


We all here from The Document Foundation wish you and beloved ones a 
peaceful, joyful and merry holiday season, some silent and relaxed days 
with those close to you, and a happy, successful and blessed new year!


Thank you for all you did for LibreOffice the past 365 days, thank you 
for being with us, and we are looking forward to working with you in the 
next year. A year that, undoubtedly, will be full of surprises, good 
times and major achievements. It is you who made LibreOffice to what it 
is today, because that is what LibreOffice was made for and is made by: 
the community.


The TDF Board of Directors and Membership Committee

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[tdf-discuss] testing Google Hangouts

2012-01-08 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

last year, after having a look at TeamSpeak and Mumble, we decided to 
have a look at Google Hangouts.


I just had a short try with a friend, and, well, it was not that 
impressive, it didn't work as expected - but it might have been a local 
problem.


While it is no secret that I'm a big fan of the traditional telephone, 
shall we try out Google Hangout for one of the following meetings, may 
it be the marketing meeting or the BoD meeting, just to see if it works? 
I'm not saying we will use this in the future exclusively, but we can 
give it a try at least, and maybe use it for special meetings. We can 
also provide a fallback dial-in at our known numbers, of course.


This requires everyone to have a Google account (IMHO even Google+), and 
to install a plugin in their browser, and of course a fast internet 
connection.


I have no clue if we can create a gateway between Google+ and the PTSN 
(classic phone network). For Skype, it's quite expensive, they charge 
about $7 per line (!).


What do you think?

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] testing Google Hangouts

2012-01-08 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2012-01-08 22:59:

Florian thats one advantage you have with mumble and team speak you can
have multiple channels. one for BOD ESC etc each password protected.


well, Mumble and TeamSpeak simply do not work at all for me, and at 
least some others made similar experiences. That's the problem. :/


Voice transmission simply doesn't work, I tried it, but it doesn't work.

Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] testing Google Hangouts

2012-01-09 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote on 2012-01-08 21:06:

Perhaps you should have a look at Jitsi :http://jitsi.org/


thanks! I tested it once as an SIP client for an article I've written. 
Do you know if it can do video independent from SIP? SIP through 
firewalls/NAT is a pain :(


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] testing Google Hangouts

2012-01-10 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote on 2012-01-10 05:40:

I don't know. I just tried Jitsi at office and it seemed to work well.
My SysAdmin has said to me that Jitsi is only a SIP client.


ok, then I'll have a look. SIP behind NAT is just a pain. :/ It got 
better these days, due to SIP Proxies or SIP ALG mechanisms in routers, 
but still is a problem for many...


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Italian user list seems to be broken or in busy state: what's the matter?

2012-01-12 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello Carlo,

Carlo Strata wrote on 2012-01-12 13:34:

Italian user list (us...@it.libreoffice.org) seems to be broken or in
some "busy state": what's the matter?
It may be since about January the 4th.

I don't know if this is the only one in this state (italian or other
languages).

Could someone check it or them and fix the trouble?

Thank you very much!


I just checked, and the list seems to work fine. Not many messages 
coming in, but the last one was from January 11th, sent by you: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/users@it.libreoffice.org/msg00451.html


Florian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [tdf-discuss] Italian user list seems to be broken or in busy state: what's the matter?

2012-01-12 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Carlo Strata wrote on 2012-01-12 14:18:


 Remote MTA bilbo.documentfoundation.org: SMTP diagnostic: 550
5.7.1: Recipient address rejected: Mail
appears to be spam or forged and is rejected due to policy. Using cached
results - retrying too fast. penalty: 30 seconds x 0 retries.


Whati do you think about?


this means that the mailserver trying to deliver messages has been put 
on several (external, non-TDF) blacklists, probably for sending out 
spam. It is mainly your provider's duty to fix this problem. We need to 
rely on blacklists for spam filtering.


In cases where your provider cannot help you, we can -temporarily- 
whitelist the sending server. So, first is to ping your provider and 
tell him he seems to be blacklisted due to spamming. In case that does 
not help, the next time you receive such a message, please send a direct 
note to postmas...@documentfoundation.org, with the date and time of the 
original message, and we will investigate.


Sorry for any inconveniences,
Florian

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[tdf-discuss] Conference Call for Location

2012-01-15 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

I just wanted to remind all of you that the Call for Location for 
hosting the conference this year ends in a bit more than one week, next 
Sunday, January 22nd, 23:59 UTC.


More details can be found in our wiki at 
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/CallforLocation


Looking forward to hear your proposals! ;-)

Florian

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[tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

2012-01-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

we have received two proposals for this years' LibreOffice Conference - 
thank you very much for your applications!


My proposal for the voting process is as follows:

- I would like to make the proposals public immediately, by uploading 
them to the wiki, and sending out a short notice to announce@tdf


- For the timeline of a week or so, the community can ask direct 
questions to the proponents, should something be unclear in their proposals


- After that, we will initiate the voting

- For voting, I propose to use a simple majority vote, i.e. the proposal 
having more votes will host the conference


- The candidate not succeeding this year can propose for 2013, but it 
will not automatically be preferred there (since we already called for 
2013 proposals as well)


- Where I'm a bit undetermined is the voting scheme itself

- One option is to allow every subscriber to the announce@ lists to vote 
(after e-mail confirmation in the voting system itself),


- another one is to allow only TDF members to vote. The latter one would 
exclude "joke" votings like we have seen them in the past, but exclude 
many eligible people.


- A third option would be to send out a voting invitation to everyone 
subscribe to a set of mailing lists (e.g. discuss@, announce@ and so 
on), but send them a private token. That way, only active people in the 
project could vote, but TDF membership would not be necessary.


What do you think?

Thanks,
Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

2012-01-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote on 2012-01-23 08:14:


- A third option would be to send out a voting invitation to everyone
subscribe to a set of mailing lists (e.g. discuss@, announce@ and so
on), but send them a private token. That way, only active people in the
project could vote, but TDF membership would not be necessary.


Is it a big technical and/or manpowering effort to do it in that way?


not really, if we can agree on a sane set of mailing lists. ;-) E.g. I'd 
use announce@, discuss@, and maybe one or two more lists (probably the 
developer list makes sense). Getting subscribers from all over 100 lists 
is a rather tedious task. ;-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

2012-01-22 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hello,

Florian Effenberger wrote on 2012-01-23 08:07:

we have received two proposals for this years' LibreOffice Conference -
thank you very much for your applications!


I just was privately contacted by a third proponent. They tell that due 
to internet connectivity issues during the weekend, they were not able 
to retrieve the CfL, and thus not be able to create a proposal in time.


Their question is, whether they can work on it today and send it in.

My *personal* opinion is that it would be unfair to others to extend the 
deadline, so I would propose them to send in for 2013 instead. Everyone 
had a fair chance and the deadline was well known - but I'd like to hear 
your thoughts on that.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals

2012-01-23 Thread Florian Effenberger


Hi,

Charles-H. Schulz wrote on 2012-01-23 09:44:


Moreover, because we end up with two proposals, we might not even have to
vote (since we have one proposal for each year) and we only need to
"prioritize" them.


both proposal IMHO run for 2012, so we indeed should have a vote on who 
will be the host for this year. ;-)


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals


Hi,

klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote on 2012-01-24 10:57:

First when I saw this thread I expected a BoD-vote.


I guess that would be the wrong direction. The conference is for the 
communit at large, so the community should decide.


In theory, that means opening up a public link so anyone can vote. 
However, in the past, we sometimes had cases of people abusing that, 
massively voting for one location, while they are neither engaged in our 
community, nor intended to go to the conference.


So, I'd like to find some sensible mechanism to involve as many people 
as possible, without opening the door for misuse of the voting.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals


Hi,

Volker Merschmann wrote on 2012-01-24 11:06:


- another one is to allow only TDF members to vote. The latter one would
exclude "joke" votings like we have seen them in the past, but exclude many
eligible people.


This is what I would prefer.


I think this would exclude a fair amount of contributors. Many of e.g. 
the code contributors are not members, but indeed do a very valueable 
work. Excluding them from voting sounds wrong.


Volker Merschmann wrote on 2012-01-24 11:20:


Just a guess: A minimum of five postings to any of our mailinglists up
to this day?


Counting the postings is rather tedious. I would simply extract the 
recipient list of several mailing lists and then appeal at them to being 
fair and vote only if they intend to join.


I rather take the risk of have some "joke" votings from those who are 
subscribed to our discussion lists, rather than excluding a group of 
very valued contributors.


Florian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals


Hi,

Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2012-01-24 12:49:


Would this help any facilitating the votes?

http://doodle.com/


maybe, but I am not so keen in having so large votes on an ad-financed 
platform. Maybe we can use an own survey system.


Florian

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Florian Effenberger 
Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibOCon proposals