Re: Debian stable - updates
On Friday, June 25, 2021 7:19:34 AM CDT Christian wrote: > Hi altogether, > > as I´m a newcomer to Debian and coming from Lubuntu I searched for > information as far as the release model is concerned. > > I learned that there are three different releases: stable, testing, and > unstable. > > I know I´m not supposed to post any links here but for the sake of > reference I´ll still do it this time (sorry). > I´m referring to the article "Debian vs Ubuntu" on > https://linuxconfig.org/debian-vs-ubuntu . > > I quote: > > "Debian's stable release is insanely stable. There are few distributions > in the same league when it comes to rock solid reliability. > > [...] There is a tradeoff, though. The software in Debian Stable is > usually fairly outdated. > In fact, it's usually outdated when the distribution first ships. Now, > that's not much of a problem for servers, but it's awful for desktops. " > > Despite reading through the entire article I couldn´t really understand > why the author refers to Debian stable as being "awful" for desktops. > > So I have a question in order to be clear about the matter. > > Is Debian stable safe to use - I mean in the sense that it gets security > updates for the installed packages? > > I don´t really care about updates which would introduce new features of > programmes. All I´m concerned about is getting security updates so that > I can use Debian stable as my daily driver. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Many greetings > Rosika Hi, Rosika! Welcome to the community. I hope you will enjoy your time here. Yes, Debian Stable is very stable. It is not perfect, but then no OS is. The best endorsement that I can give any Linux distribution is that it is stable and well maintained. Debian is certainly that. Debian Stable gets regular updates from the Debian Security Team, a group that does not nearly get the credit it deserves. You can use Debian Stable with a reasonable assurance that you will receive patches as needed. If you need newer versions of software for some reason or another, you can always use Debian Backports. You can also use Snap, Flatpak, and AppImage archives. Please be aware that Debian does not patch third party packaging. So use them at your own risk. If you have skills as a coder, you can create your own packages from any of the Debian source trees. So the arguments against Debian being outdated are pretty much moot and misinformed, in my opinion. Take care, and once again, welcome! T.J.
APT Black Magic
Be sure to actually check the listed paths in the Packages.gz file to make sure that they are pointing to the deb files in question. It sounds like you have the Packages file written in the proper format so that it can be added to the package tree via APT or Synaptic (frontend to apt), but that the locations listed in the Packages.gz file is off. I had a similiar problem with a previous version of Debian. You have to take the tree structure of the standard repository into account when making your own local package collections. I hope that helps! Cheers, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sarge for i386
Hi Mike, Before we proceed, please pardon me if I'm rehashing, but I don't know your level of skills. > On Tuesday 18 July 2006 21:58, mike williams wrote: > > > is it possible to use the gnu\lnux as a "normal" OS to do things like > > > browse webpages and download programs etc... and if so,how? i dont have a > > > problem logging in,but then all i get is debia"a"mike~$, what do i do from > > > there to browse web pages etc Yes, of course you can! Pardon the hardcore responses from the locals, they take time to warm up to. Debian folks aren't a bad sort. Don't take the gruff responses to heart, it just takes a little time to learn. It sounds like you have the basic setup installed without the graphical user interface, what most normal people call "point and click" or GUI. Linux is different from something like Windows in that it doesn't always come with the GUI turned on. Debian is different from most versions of Linux in that it is not designed to run as a desktop version out of the box. That doesnt mean it can't though. I'm sending you this message from the GUI. If you are looking for something with no muss no fuss, then I highly recommend Ubuntu, which is a version of Linux based on Debian, but it's setup for desktop work right out of the box. The downside is that itdoesn't have as many programs/plugins and whatnot officially supported. Debian has over 3 times as many supported. Debian puts in a lot more time and effort. If you don't mind a few hours of tedium, I'll be very pleased to help you get the graphical interface turned on. I say a few hours because, depending on the age (new or old) of your videocard and monitor we might have to work on some customizing to get the best performance possible, and we are talking via email - which makes conversations slower. To get started, I'd suggest running this command as root: su -c "apt-get install gdm" It will prompt you for the "root" (Administrator) password if you are logged in as mike. What this should do is install the graphical display manager for the GNOME Desktop. Theoretically, if the package maintainers have figured out the dependencies or suggested, it should auto install the most of the base GUI as well. After that, just do the same for "firefox". If it does not work (which can happen, maintainers are only human), then I'll be happy to walk you through the rest privately as so not to spam the list. If you are looking for a good desktop experience with Debian, Sarge is a good place to start, but after a while you might want to upgrade to Etch (testing or "prerelease" version of Debian). Don't worry about that for now, you can do it later. If you have a second computer running, say Windows or a Mac I know various ways of establishing a voice over Internet connection, and I can literally talk you through it. Another option if you need help is to grant me temporary access if you have a static IP, and I'll help you set it up via remote. I really hope that the responses on the list hasn't turned you off to Debian or Linux. People on lists can be elitist at times. You get used to it, and just ignore the gruff people. They mean well. There really are people here who honestly just want to help. I wish you well. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommend an email program for the debian-user-digest?
Another coomon mail agent to try is evolution, especially if you are a fan of GNOME, since it sports heavy integration with the desktop, and is the preferred agent for GNOME. It's very Outlookish, if you like that sort of thing. It has several advantages, including support for PGP/GPG, HTML, MIME and other common email standards. Unlike some of the other mail programs mentioned thus far, it also supports IMAP (including v4) and even *cringe* Microsoft Exchange servers. (Sorry fellas.) It also supports message threading views, etc. It's highly maintained, and development is handled by the GNOME Foundation and Novell. Thunderbird's spam handling is better out of the box, but you can setup a filter to tie directly into SpamAssassin and take care of that. Laters, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sound Configuration problem on clean Sarge install
If you are using GNOME and want to use ALSA instead you must also install the gstreamer-alsa package if you want to get ALSA pipes working. The version number varies depending on which branch of Debian you have. I believe it is 0.8 for Sarge. You can then set ALSA as the default in preferences. I'd also make sure you install a mixer, and make sure that your master volume and PCM are not muted, as they ususally is by default, resulting in no sound although everything is installed properly. If you aren't using a stock Debian kernel, you must also make certain that you have ALSA support installed and available for your hardware, then load the appropriate driver. If it doesn't work after that you probably have a permissions problem with the device node under /dev. ALSA has been the default sound system for Linux for a number of years, replacing OSS entirely. I'll never understand why the option for OSS even exists anymore in GNOME as far as Linux is concerned. One last caveat... OSS does not allow for the sound device to be shared, so if you are running any OSS applications, I'd turn off all sound events before you use the applications, as they might refuse to work if another program is accessing the device. Yet another reason why OSS is ancient history. I do wish you the best of luck. If I can help further please don't hesitate, and post to the list or email me directly. Cheers, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sound Configuration problem on clean Sarge install
Oh, I forgot. You might also have to load ALSA's OSS compatibility driver, if it isn't already when you use an OSS app. It's normally named something like snd_pcm_oss, if I recall correctly. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
kernel/vesa video modes
I use the "vga=792" parameter at the end of the "kernel" line in grub, so that the resolution is changed to 1024x768 at 24 bit. I would like to use 1280x960 at 24 bit instead, but haven't been able to find how to anywhere. All the tables I've found exclude 1280x960. Does anyone know what I need to use after "vga="? Running Debian Etch on amd64 Owen, The best place to find the documentation on the video modes is in the kernel documentation. I normally get mine straight from kernel.org, but then I prefer to roll my own kernels, as I often find the default kernels troublesome for my situation. I'd imagine you can find it in the Debian kernel packages. However you get them, look for the vesa and framebuffer (fb) text files under the Documentation directory of the kernel source code. I think though, that modes above 1024x768 were not defined in the original VESA standard. Don't quote me though, I've been wrong before. Best wishes, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why still using GCC-2.95 and Linux 2.4.x and 2.2.x?
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On 9/11/06, James Stevenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I'm still interesting in knowing why people still use GCC-2.95 and the > older kernels, 2.2 and 2.4. As for the kernels, it used to be that the > older ones were more stable since 2.6 was also a development series, > but is it still the case. > The most interesting issue is the usage of Linux 2.2.x series. are > there any advantages? Can you state an advantages of this being the other way around. Say I use a 2.4.x kernel and its been running for a year. Mayby a reboot here / there for security updates or small hardware changes. Why would I change this into a newer untested kernel or compiler ? I get the point. Does this mean that one won't find a new install using any Linux before 2.6.x these days, unless when using old hardware? Pretty much. I haven't seen any new distribution releases that didn't use 2.6 in at least a year or so. The GCC 2.95 branch is also pretty much history. The default compiler for most is some 3.x series for server stable and 4.x for desktop. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Will Get Buried (Off)
Hi everyone: I will not respond to this on the user list after this post, unless I deem it absolutely necessary. It could easy develop into a flame war, and so I won't encourage it. In my opinion, this topic has nothing to do with Debian specifically, so this discussion has no place on a debian-user list. The purpose of this list is to help users with or discuss Debian issues. The only reason I'm responding now is for the sake of new users. I think we really must develop some form of written etiquette for posting. We have already lost respected members of the Debian community in the last year or so, because of debates on the use of the lists. I don't want to see that trend continue. These are larger concerns in the Internet community as a whole, such as DRM. Might I suggest the creation of a separate forum for such things as the DRM/fair use debate, and the various merits of Apple OS X? T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sendmail in Sarge and Etch
What is the appropriate list for this? Bugs? I'm not sure if you would really consider this a flaw or not. I do, but then I've had more experience with Sendmail than most. The Debian package installers in Sarge and Etch contain a serious flaw in the setup scripts that place FEATURE() after MAILER () in the m4 sendmail.mc file. This, of course, is not permitted. While the generated sendmail.cf file appears to work (I haven't inspected it.), this causes an error every time that sendmail is configured. This has been a long standing problem - over a year. I'd also like to suggest enabling some of the more commonly used features, such as virtusertable and blacklisting. I'd rather use the Debian stock packages rather than have to replace sendmail every time I update. I can even donate a preconfigured sendmail.mc file if it will help. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why linux memory management isn't clever, always hold large memroy?
bowen wrote: > Previously, memory use looks good. And I use mysql> load data infile > 'file' into table to import a very large mysql data file. So the > memory used became large quickly and soon exhaust all the memory to > use swap space. After that the system became slow for cpu fully > waiting IO status. (Why mysql or system do not automatic free some of > the loaded data from memory, Just use a little swap space to sawp out > a little memory). After a long time, the mysql load process complete > and I restart the mysqld daemon, but the memory does still hold large > memory. > > Why linux does not release the memory again ? Is there any way that I > can free the memory without reboot machine? > > Thanks > > shell# free > total used free sharedbuffers cached > Mem:516488 459376 57112 0 8 420152 > -/+ buffers/cache: 39216 477272 > Swap: 1023992 801023912 > > > top - 11:20:56 up 46 min, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.11 > Tasks: 50 total, 1 running, 49 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie > Cpu(s): 0.0%us, 0.0%sy, 0.0%ni,100.0%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, > 0.0%st > Mem:516488k total, 459316k used,57172k free,8k buffers > Swap: 1023992k total, 80k used, 1023912k free, 420084k cached > > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+ COMMAND > 4002 root 16 0 2228 1124 868 R 0.3 0.2 0:00.02 top >1 root 16 0 1940 660 564 S 0.0 0.1 0:01.28 init >2 root RT 0 000 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 migration/0 >3 root 34 19 000 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 ksoftirqd/0 >4 root 10 -5 000 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.02 events/0 >5 root 10 -5 000 S 0.0 0.0 0:00.00 khelper > It doesn't necessarily make sense to reallocate memory unless it is actually needed. Reallocation when it isn't required can slow down other processes. Of course, there is another possibility, and that is that mysql has a memory leak somewhere. If you are concerned that it may, I'd suggest either a message to the mysql maintainer with your observations or grab the code and run a trace yourself. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recent spam increase
Steve Lamb wrote: . > > Not true, mutt excels at mixing mail to the point where it is utterly > incapable of doing so without forcing the user to go to extraordinary lengths > to keep their mail untangled. Hence my pointing out that modern mail clients > can keep mail separate and cited mutt as an example of one that manifestly > cannot. > Not to sound off too much here when I haven't been part of the conversation, but MUA's aren't really designed to stop spam or perform message sorting. I can say that with some confidence since I spend a reasonable percentage of my time programming mail servers for ISPs. Granted, several of the new MUAs aka "mail clients" or more precisely "mail user agents" have some very primitive filtering capabilities, but ladies and gentlemen, the most practical mail filtering or sorting is almost always done server side before your MUA even gets the mail. Many ISPs only perform cursory mail scans for spam or sorting - because if they get too elaborate, users make phone calls asking where mail went. My humble advice to those who care...learn to use SpamAssassin (or some other milter), procmail, ClamAV or even MailScanner (for the opensource server admin crowd). Don't expect Outlook, Thunderbird, Mutt, Pine, or even Evolution to do anything more than simple blob sorts or spam checking. They really aren't designed for it, although I will admit Thunderbird's (or IceDove's) filter can be made reasonable for "low techies" if your ISP uses SpamAssassin headers. Well, I've said my two cents.. Have a good day, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Community hostility [Was Recent spam increase]
On Wed, 2006-10-25 at 23:43 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote: > T.J. Duchene wrote: > > Granted, several of the new MUAs aka "mail clients" or more precisely > > "mail user agents" have some very primitive filtering capabilities, but > > ladies and gentlemen, the most practical mail filtering or sorting is > > almost always done server side before your MUA even gets the mail. > > "Almost always" doesn't count much when it comes to a Linux crowd. > > > My humble advice to those who care...learn to use SpamAssassin (or some > > other milter), procmail, ClamAV or even MailScanner (for the opensource > > server admin crowd). > > Or, hey, ditch the who "server" paradigm completely! > > > Don't expect Outlook, Thunderbird, Mutt, Pine, or even Evolution to do > > anything more than simple blob sorts or spam checking. > > You mean like Thunderbird having a built-in Bayesian scanner which catches > spam my rather tight SA install lets slip through? Amazingly most of it here > on d-u. > > Or that it has anti-scam filters built in that catch what SA and clamav > let slip through? > > Or the fact that Sylpheed-claws and KMail both have for some time had > hooks for SA scanning? > > Or that Sylpheed-claws has hooks for ClamAV scanning? > > Oh, er, sorry, you were telling us unwashed non-mail admins about these > "primitive" things called MUAs. Carry on. Steve, I'm sorry if you took my comments the wrong way. Relax, man! Most MUA's don't have built in software for this sort of thing, they depend on something else to do the job, often hosted "server side" in point of fact. When I say "server side" I'm also including the fact that most of our machines, even personal workstations are setup with the same software used on mail servers. I did mention Thunderbird as an exception with its built in Baysian filter in my original post. Nothing on these lists is a personal attack, and it gets so tiresome to see all this hostility all the time. Honestly, that's one of the greatest problems with Debian or any other list. You make a comment, and the next thing you get is a "flame war". My comments weren't intended to be condescending. I was merely trying to say I have some experience in the area in question. This isn't a retort to even you, Steve. I've been guilty of arguments a few times myself. We both made valid points, but this isn't a game to keep score. I'm going to delibrately make a few comments now, and if everyone gets upset, so be it. I've seen a lot of arguing on the Debian lists over the last year or two, to the point where we have even lost some very good people who have contributed greatly to Debian for years. I've heard of "f* Ubuntu" shirts at Debconf. Some of the developers who have left Debian have made, admittedly biased but accurate remarks on public record about the community's behaviour. This isn't the kind of public image we want to present the rest of the world. For example, for all the strange dislike between Debian and Ubuntu, I remember having a discussion several years ago on the Debian lists about newbie users. The general consensus back then was that newbie users were better served using a different distribution rather than Debian, because our primary focus was technical perfection as I recall. I was there. Ubuntu is built to solve a need where we left an opening, for someone else to step up. It's a need that the Debian community dismissed years ago as not as important. Then Ubuntu comes along, and suddenly a vocal number of developers gets upset to the point of scathing remarks - some of which might even be justified. Now before you make comments, I know how our community feels about Ubuntu, the patches, compatibility, or even communication between the two camps. I'm not trying to provoke a defensive response here. I'm not trying to assign blame. While we still have a great deal of respect as a "perfectionist" distrib, focused on technical achievement, we have lost a great deal of public respect because of fighting amongst ourselves. Now, it is also true enough that every single project ever done has this problem. I've even seen speculation as to whether or not Debian will survive given losses and all of the public disagreements. Not that I believe Debian is going to fall apart for even a second, but even that that kind of chatter exists begs the question in the public eye of our unity and ability to accomplish our charter. I think the release of Etch might help things, but we need to reassess our attitudes a bit. T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how to restrict developers in /var/www/html directory...??
Hi Michael, I'm just going to add my two cents here. I hope I can help you. Joris' suggestion of using ACL's isn't a bad one, but IMHO new users really have trouble understanding the ACL mechanism. Unless I'm really missing part of the discussion, I don't see the need to use it here. . Michael Habashy wrote, On 2-Sep-2008 22:18: i would like to restrict developer access to the /var/www/html directory. I currently have a number of websites in that directory. They are all live public_html for their respective webpages. I have developer A who i want to give access to /var/www/html/a-website.com I have developer B who i want to give access to /var/www/html/b-website.com I have developer C who i want to give access to /var/www/html/c-website.com All you would have to do is set the ownership of each directory using the "chown" command. Then set permissions one each directory to 755. For example: chown /var/www/html/a-website.com -R chmod 755 /var/www/html/a-website.com -R The permissions on the directory should look like this when you perform an "ls -la". "drwxr-xr-x" This will allow the webserver to read the files for display, but will only allow the owner to modify them. The directories have to be readable by the webserver in order to be displayed anyway.The "www-data" user as I understand it, exists primarily as a safeguard to protect the rest of the system against hacking. The "www-data" user or group does not have to be used on the directories or files at all. IMHO it should never be (unless absolutely necessary), because if write permissions are accidentally set for www-data (even system administrators make mistakes) that gives someone who breaches the Apache webserver security or the www-data group the ability to rewrite your website files. Since basic permissions is really an administrative concern, and has nothing to do with Debian specifically, I'll be happy to discuss permissions and any other administrative topics with you off the list. Please feel welcome to email me directly anytime. Best Wishes, T.J. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Xorg cannot use non-native resolutions
I think that, depending on your desktop environment and video driver, you might be able to get the results you desire. I can't say for sure, since I didn't setup what you are using. It sounds like you aren't actually changing resolutions when you start the game up. Your window manager of choice (Metacity/Gnome, kwin/KDE - whatever simply locates the window center screen at the specified resolution. As far as I have ever seen or heard, automatic mode switching for full screen applications is usually left to the application or windowing environment to decide. I've never seen X automatically switch modes, unless it is told to do so, or the mode you ask for fails. I think the reasoning behind this is to protect your hardware. Granted, this doesn't help much. What desktop environment are you using? T.J. David Banks wrote: Hi debian users. I use Debian Etch and the i810 driver for my Intel 945GM integrated graphics card. My laptop is a Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo Li 1818. When I first started using Debian I had the problem that X would not start, because there weren't any usable modes. I installed 915resolution, which fixed this problem and let me start X in the 1440x900 widescreen mode which is pretty optimal for most uses. However, sometimes I might want to play a game at a lower fullscreen resolution. Let's say I want to play Pingus at 800x600 fullscreen. I run [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ pingus -g 800x600 -f The game starts up as a borderless window in the middle of the screen. That is, fullscreen doesn't work. The same thing happens with any other programs that try to use any fullscreen mode other than 1440x900. This is pretty deadly to most fullscreen games that set lower resolutions for speed. The first place I looked was in xorg.conf. Sure enough, I have the right modes defined: Code: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 16 SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "640x480" "800x600" "1024x768" "1280x1024" "1600x1200" "1440x900" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "640x480" "800x600" "1024x768" "1280x1024" "1600x1200" "1440x900" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 32 Modes "640x480" "800x600" "1024x768" "1280x1024" "1600x1200" "1440x900" EndSubSection EndSection I use 16bpp since 32-bit modes are not properly supported by i810. There is a reference for this, but you'll have to take my word for the moment. These modes were obtained by querying my card with 915resolution: [EMAIL PROTECTED] # 915resolution -l Intel 800/900 Series VBIOS Hack : version 0.5.2 Chipset: 945GM BIOS: TYPE 1 Mode Table Offset: $C + $269 Mode Table Entries: 36 Mode 30 : 640x480, 8 bits/pixel Mode 32 : 800x600, 8 bits/pixel Mode 34 : 1024x768, 8 bits/pixel Mode 38 : 1280x1024, 8 bits/pixel Mode 3a : 1600x1200, 8 bits/pixel Mode 3c : 1440x900, 8 bits/pixel Mode 41 : 640x480, 16 bits/pixel Mode 43 : 800x600, 16 bits/pixel Mode 45 : 1024x768, 16 bits/pixel Mode 49 : 1280x1024, 16 bits/pixel Mode 4b : 1600x1200, 16 bits/pixel Mode 4d : 1440x900, 16 bits/pixel Mode 50 : 640x480, 32 bits/pixel Mode 52 : 800x600, 32 bits/pixel Mode 54 : 1024x768, 32 bits/pixel Mode 58 : 1280x1024, 32 bits/pixel Mode 5a : 1600x1200, 32 bits/pixel Mode 5c : 1440x900, 32 bits/pixel Why isn't X taking the extra modes? I consulted /var/log/Xorg.0.log. It's difficult to see which parts are relevant, so the full log is available on request (unfortunately, I do not have webspace available at present, and attaching it to the message seems to cause it to be blocked). Anyway, I excerpt a bit below: [massive list of mode details, some with sensible attributes, some all zeroes: see below for example] (WW) I810(0): config file hsync range 51.4286-56.8421kHz not within DDC hsync ranges. (II) I810(0): Generic Monitor: Using hsync range of 51.43-56.84 kHz (II) I810(0): Generic Monitor: Using vrefresh value of 60.00 Hz (II) I810(0): Not using mode "640x480" (no mode of this name) (II) I810(0): Not using mode "800x600" (no mode of this name) (II) I810(0): Not using mode "1024x768" (no mode of this name) (II) I810(0): Not using mode "1280x1024" (no mode of this name) (II) I810(0): Not using mode "1600x1200" (no mode of this name) (II) I810(0): Increasing the scanline pitch to allow tiling mode (1440 -> 2048). (--) I810(0): Virtual size is 1440x900 (pitch 2048) (**) I810(0): *Built-in mode "1440x900" (++) I810(0): DPI set to (96, 96) Please note the "Not using mode" message. Yet the 1440x900 mode is being found fine, I guess because it's a 'build-in mode'. Here's an example of what looks like a valid mode in the mode details list: *Mode: 41 (640x480) ModeAttributes: 0x9b WinAAttributes: 0x7 WinBAttributes: 0x0 WinGranularity: 64 WinSize: 64 WinASe
Jessie and Systemd integration
I'm asking this on the user list not because I am trying to incite yet another debate over the merits of Systemd, but because I am assuming that the user list probably has the best chance of reaching out to the most people to get an answer. I do not care which init is better for what. I do not care about the Systemd versus SysV arguments. The decision has been made by the Debian TC. So be it. My concern is the future of Debian for situations where the use of Systemd is not acceptable. I'm curious to find out how Systemd as the default is going to work on Jessie/Debian 8. When the words, "as default" is offered, that assumes that there are supported alternatives available. What I want to know with complete surety is: a) If I will have to have systemd installed even if I do not want it. b) If completely purging Systemd and using an offered alternative break or otherwise hamper the packaging system. If it is a case where systemd is required to be used, I might have to move some of my work off of Debian to Gentoo or FreeBSD.
Slight New Sound Problem
Good morning, Martin! Before I can make suggestions, I need to know if you are using a daemon such as Jack or PulseAudio or if you are using ALSA directly. Thanks, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541aeef8.7000...@gmail.com
Jessie and Systemd integration
Thanks very much, everyone. I especially appreciate the dependency information with no bias. Just the facts is always appreciated on an emotional issue such as this. The truth is that I can live with a stray library or a shim - but the rest leaves me concerned. Setting aside all of the controversy, there seems to be one undeniable design fact. Unless I am overlooking something relevant, Systemd is adding a single point of failure on a critical process chain. On a desktop, I don't care, but on a 24/7 server that is something I really can't afford. Any server will eventually fail, but I don't feel comfortable risking cron timing, startup and logging failure all in one swoop by having systemd control everything. I know you can disable portions of systemd, because I have, but the pervasive nature of the package dependencies makes it much harder to ignore. From the sound of things, I'd very much like to give Debian 8 the benefit of the doubt. I'll wait and see, if there are more posts and not dismiss it entirely. Until more information comes in down the road, it is probably prudent for me to continue to look at a server migration plan that firmly does not include systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/541af8ad.40...@gmail.com
Re: Slight New Sound Problem
Pulseaudio has had a long history of being poorly handling certain audio chipset drivers, I'm afraid. You may be able to solve your problem by adjusting the the driver parameters in the file: /etc/pulse/default.pa. You will need to have administrator permission to do this. Be sure to make a backup copy of the file before you make changes, just in case. Edit the line: load-module module-udev-detect and add "tsched=0" so it will be: load-module module-udev-detect tsched=0 Save it, and then preferably reboot, just to be on the safe side. Don't worry, this parameter should be perfectly safe to use. It will force PulseAudio try to not bulldoze over the sound driver's timing by forcing the scheduler to 0. As a last resort to fix problems with PA, I've backported a newer version from Sid to Debian Stable, but I don't recommend that unless you really and fully understand what you are getting into. It can cause problems.
Re: Jessie and Systemd integration
I do not understand something that has been bugging me for a while and I'd like to ask the many minds of the list why this would not be possible, especially since Debian has some of the best Linux people out there, who have worked on the system for 20+ years. Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script - basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases where Systemd is undesirable? What systemd does is basically a generic process of reading parameters from a file and using them to start a service. Granted, this approach would have the benefits that systemd has, but the concerns about systemd being too opaque or monolithic could be almost mitigated. The remaining concerns such as login and so on can be addressed separately.
re: Slight New Sound Problem
Martin, I'm sorry you had problems with my suggestion. Most often, these problems have to be handled by trial and error. I'm afraid I can only offer advice based on my own experience and the fact you mentioned you were using Pulseaudio. I assumed you had it already installed and was using it. As to the suggestion by others that the discussion would better be served on the audio list, perhaps they are right, but I do not agree. I think that the Debian users list should handle Debian problems, but my opinion hardly matters. If you want to follow this up off the list, you are welcome to email me. I seldom post to the Debian user lists these days. Take care, T.J. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140919230534.0f17c...@workstation.lan
Suggested Change for Debian Wiki, Simple backport creation
I'd like to suggest a change to the "Simple Backport" wikipage at https://wiki.debian.org/SimpleBackportCreation The page suggests using: dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc. I've found that backporting from unstable goes much more smoothly if you use: debuild -us -uc instead. The package scripts seem to behave better. I'm not "super experienced" in this sort of thing, so if there is a better way, by all means, please mention it. Ideally, I imagine that we would want everyone using the same packaging process, regardless of personal experience - fewer mistakes and so on. Thanks! T.J.
Re: Pulseaudio not starting, after no obvious changes
Hello, Jennifer! (With your kind indulgence, I prefer informality.) I would try purging and then reinstalling Pulseaudio in the event that your /etc/pulse/default.pa file has somehow gotten mangled. As root, "su -c" or using sudo: apt-get purge pulseaudio apt-get install pulseaudio Then, as much as you may dislike it, I would reboot to clear the memory and any stale files. I hope this helps! T.J.
Re: Customizing/repository question
On Sun, 22 May 2016 22:20:38 - (UTC) Dan Purgert wrote: > Ralph Sanchez wrote: > > --94eb2c0807a2726ee105335ce34f > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > Good morning. I was just wandering, is it safe to use packages from > > another Debian based district repositories by adding them to my > > sources file, specifically Kali Linux? > > Nope, not packages ... but you could always build from source. > Building from source works very well! I've done so many times, even building sources from Debian on Ubuntu, or Debian Sid on Jessie. I've found this very helpful, although the instructions are intended for backports and may require a little improvisation for your situation: https://wiki.debian.org/SimpleBackportCreation I usually substitute "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc" with "debuild -us -uc". Things build more smoothly. You will have to alter the distribution/revision to match whatever you are using. Good luck!
Re: Customizing/repository question
On Mon, 23 May 2016 11:38:52 - (UTC) Dan Purgert wrote: > T.J. Duchene wrote: > > On Sun, 22 May 2016 22:20:38 - (UTC) > > Dan Purgert wrote: > >> [snip] > >> Nope, not packages ... but you could always build from source. > >> > > [snip] > > I usually substitute "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc" with "debuild -us > > -uc". Things build more smoothly. > > Yeah, that'll build a .deb package (IIRC) for you to then install with > dpkg. Generally when I build from source, it's a process of: > > ./configure [options] (wait a bit) > make (wait a lot[1]) > sudo make install > > [1] Downside of having an older PC with limited RAM. Takes a long > time to compile. > There is nothing wrong with that! =) I've used that myself. I am only speaking for myself, but if possible I prefer to use code from the repository and then use the Debian build scripts rather than build it manually. The reasons are three. First, you automatically get the patches to the upstream applied correctly. Second, the build dependencies are usually automatically installed so you spend less time chasing them down. Thirdly, using the package rather than the raw source install means that the package manager will inform me before it ungraciously overwrites a file needed to for a program to function properly. T.J.
OT Synaptic (was Re: Network manager (again) )
On Fri, 2016-05-27 at 08:32 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: > > > Synaptic!=debian's package installer > > It is one of Debian's package installers, and a late-comer at that, > which I > have found causes problems. Perhaps this is one of them? (Note the > "I have > found". I don't want to start a flame war!!!) > > So, correction, "said unstable by Synaptic" (Does it???) > No one wants that, I agree. I feel it is necessary to make the following statement for others reading the list: "In my experience Synaptic works very well, BUT the way it is designed, it is really intended for use with Debian Stable." A number of package scripts tend to be broken under Sid, and this is natural and to be expected. Synaptic does not always handle that situation efficiently. This does not mean that Synaptic is bad. On the contrary, I find it to be very useful, and use it regularly - swtiching to aptitude if required. I would very much like to see a QT or GTK frontend added to aptitude as an option to replace synaptic. I do not have enough time to work on it myself at present, but I have heard one was started but never finished.
Re: Quiet gaming capable gfx card for Debian Sid
Hello, Eduard! =) I'd like to help if I can. Whatever I suggest, please do not think me condescending or elitist. I do not mean to sound that way, it is just sometimes I have a harder time explaining things than I would like. Your Nvidia 750 Ti card is well supported, and so getting it working should present no problem. First, I would like to answer your questions and concerns. >But the video card I have is not ok. It's a Nvidia Geforce 750Ti >(passive cooling), it works quite well with the Nouveau drivers but >there are too many glitches in 3D games, some are basically not >playable. The Nouveau drivers do not fully support OpenGL 4 as yet. Most commercial games expect you to use the commercial Nvidia driver rather than Nouveau. >This makes me think, is AMD a better alternative? Not really. There is currently a significant gap in support coverage of AMD cards. The older FGLRX driver is not usable with the current version of X11, and the new AMDGPU driver only supports certain hardware. In my opinion, you are far better of with Nvidia when it comes to games right now. Studios that are porting AAA games to Linux only support Nvidia for the most part. Examples would be XCOM2 or Shadows of Mordor. >I really don't want to troll but this makes me wonder... am I missing >something? Or does AMD give a s...t about users unless they are >running the latest Ubuntu LTS and nothing else? You probably have a error in the way you are installed. =) We can fix that. AMD has a lot of video support issues right now. I can't say what they have in mind, but given that they have always been a very strong Linux supporter, I gather that this support problem is not the way they normally are. > what else can a normal gamer do? I'll do my best to get you up and running. I checked and your card is supported. Before we start, I feel obligated to mention that Sid is rough around the edges and you should expect some problems from time to time. Debian Stable is a far better choice if you want reliable behaviour. You should probably avoid using Debian Experimental packages unless you are a programmer. Experimental is a staging area for developers. The packages are not fully integrated into Debian yet, and can easily blow up in your face. I've found that the best way to get the Nvidia driver working successfully is to follow a chain of steps. Hopefully, this will help you. If at any point you need more information, please ask me as much as you like. 1. First, add 32 bit support. This will make sure that Steam games work properly. Then install Steam, but do not start it yet. sudo dpkg --add-architecture i386 sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install steam 2. Install the module headers and compiler, so that installing the driver always works. sudo apt-get install module-assistant sudo m-a prepare 3. Install the tested Nvidia driver and setup utilities. Because Steam is installed, the 32 bit driver support should automatically be enabled as well. sudo apt-get install nvidia-driver nvidia-settings nvidia-xconfig 4. Setup the base configuration for X11. sudo nvidia-xconfig 5. Reboot. The new driver should start automatically. After that log in, and if you want to, you can reconfigure it with nvidia-settings as you see fit. I hope this helps you. If there is anything I can do, please ask me - on or off the list as you need.
Nvidia/Qemu
I have an interesting situation for which I have not found an answer, I've been pondering this for about two weeks. I have two Nvidia cards: a 960 and a 1060. I am forced to use Ubuntu 16.04 when I would rather use Jessie. When I install the nvidia driver package for Jessie or the one from Jessie-backports on Jessie, qemu with VGA passthrough to the 1060 locks up and does not function. The same thing happens on Ubuntu 16.04 when installing the prebuilt package there. Manually installing the driver on Jessie is the same. However, when I manually install the driver on 16.04; everything functions as it should. There is no change in the VM settings. There is no change in the kernel that would cause the issue. 16.04 uses the exact same kernel in both cases and the exact same version of the nvidia driver - so it is not a kernel patch. It has to be something in the nvidia driver package, that affects both Jessie and downstream Ubuntu 16.04, causing passthrough to fail and qemu to lock up. For the life of me, I can't fathom what it is. The VFIO device nodes are present, and the card is properly bound - but it is acting like the card is in a busy state unless I manually install the driver on 16.04. At this point, I can dig through the file-system looking for some minute change or I can ask for help. Any thoughts?
Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray
On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 13:23 +1200, Richard Hector wrote: > On 24/08/15 10:03, T. J. Duchene wrote: > > Blu-ray discs carry updates and blacklists that your Blu-ray drive > > is required to accept on a hardware level. Whenever you insert a > > disc into the drive (OS makes no difference), the firmware is > > checked and possibly updated. > > Presumably these updates are signed, and verified by the existing > firmware. > > Still, if the signing key was leaked, one could have some fun ... > > Richard > Hi Richard! =) If I recall correctly, the updates consist of revoked player keys and such. So the "updates" are purely data, but if your player does not accept the revocations then the disc providing them will probably refuse to play saying that your firmware is "out of date". The manufacturer of the drive actually updates the controller. So I suppose you could have some "fun" (if you wanted to call it that) but I don't think it would be very productive. It really does not matter. I remember reading that Intel's master key for HDCP had been leaked in 2010, so from a certain view, AACS has already been defeated. The problem is that bypassing DRM is illegal in many countries, even for personal use. The software design challenges are not often undertaken any more as they were for the DVD format. Many countries that were havens for research now have severe penalties for anyone engaged, even for legitimate reasons. Big international corporations and lots of money have pretty much put any hopes any one might have of an opensource Linux Blu-ray player to an end. As far as video DRM on Linux is concerned, Google has pretty much made certain that Android will be the only commercially supported version for the foreseeable future. T.J.
Hh
On Thu, 2015-08-27 at 09:03 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > the reason why i am insisiting in getting facts is that > i want to know whether drive firmware can get altered > by just inserting and reading a commercial Blu-ray disc. Yes, it can - if you consider that the firmware on a BD drive contains more than just the controller, but secondary chips. It is important to remember that the feature is normally only used on AACS encoded discs, that is movies that you watch. BD's used for backup will probably not be a concern. That is not why I posted to the list, though. I just wanted you to be aware that BD is not everything that it is made out to be. In my experience, the changes to the drive's chips do not usually tamper with the controller in normal operation, but my point is that there are no guarantees here - it is flash, after all. BD hardware is designed specifically to be beholden to whatever controls the Blu-Ray Consortium or the OEM want to exert over its use through frequent updates in order to use media. Any update at all could potentially render the drive useless to your work. It's something that you should simply be aware of. Whether you believe me or not, think me paranoid, or do with that knowledge, is as I have said, entirely your own affair. > I sincerely doubt that the drive firmware will do this, > but rather believe it is about software on the level > of operating system and application software. > (Both of kinds which i would not touch with fire tongs.) If you don't want to believe me after I said I have seen my drive's firmware be belligerent, that's perfectly okay by me. I am absolutely not offended. Go digging around on Internet. There are plenty of instances. If you think that then why don't you ask people on the makemkv forum why they get key revocation warnings even when using Linux. I found that after a mere 5 minutes of searches. The majority of Makemkv users are Linux btw, so perhaps you will consider the forum posts as proof that OS does not matter. > But WinDVD 8 is MS-Windows software, not drive firmware. True, but BD discs update the drive whenever a new disc is inserted. This is hardware based, not software. > > One BD spares you four exchanges of the DVD in the drive > when you make a large backup. True. > A BD allows to make incremental backups up to 23 GiB whereas > DVD+R DL allows only 8 GiB of poor reliablilty. Says who? I have not had a DVD write fail for some time. > With reliable DVD media you are restricted to 4.4 GiB. Any disc: BD, DVD, or otherwise really depend on the age of your drive, whether it is properly maintained (the lens kept clean and firmware updated) and the quality of the media that you buy. If you buy cheap, uncertified blanks, then yes you will have problems and some of them will be bad. That's just physics and capitalism. Cheap discs means less care is taken in making them. > Of course, hard disks are cheaper per GB. But they have other > needs when it comes to long term storage or rough transport. > Further they are large and non divisible. I don't see what "divisible" has to do with it, since you can easily partition a drive for any number of uses. If durability during transport is a concern then yes BD might be a consideration, but at the rate that flash discs are dropping in price, it won't be for much longer. > > I would commercially compare BD media to USB sticks. > The sellers of BD-RE take care to stay cheaper than the > sellers of 16 or 32 GiB sticks. Only for the present. BD's days are numbered outside of the film industry. There are new forms of flash that will eventually render that moot. > > One big problem is that the burners deteriorate with time. > The begin to fail recording readable data. But this affects > only new recordings. The old recorded media do not die with > the burner that wrote them. True, but I have found that burned discs can be unreadable in other drives of a different make and model, especially multi-session media. That is why I prefer to use a different media for backups as overall, they do not have that quirk. > I believe no BD problem is so sincere as the problem of > USB sticks which can be programmed to emulate a keyboard. > > http://www.zdnet.com/article/usb-flash-drives-masquerading-as-keyboards-mean-more-byod-security-headaches/ USB has been and always will be a security issue. It was never designed with security in mind. That is one of the reasons I do not like Linux automounters running with elevated permissions. As for Windows, if you use that OS, and swap USB drives with your friends like candy, you deserve what you get. > Have a nice day :) And you as well, Thomas! Do take care. t.j.
Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray
On Thu, 2015-08-27 at 22:19 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > For own data recordings it should not matter, anyway. Correct. RPC codes only apply to the playback of DVD media that contains data in DVD organized format designed for a player. As a side note, RPC-1 drives have not been manufactured in 15 years. All drives licensed after 2000 are required to use RPC-2. Many DVD players (even with RPC-2) have Region 0 as an option, meaning that they will play any disc, regardless of Region spec. Since PCs never use Region 0, you generally need a player that tends to ignore the Region specification, regardless of how it is set. VLC in particular ignores Region codes.
Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
On 08/28/2015 04:45 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 28 August 2015 16:16:11 Renaud OLGIATI wrote: Systemd-Linux to get rid of su: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ Is this a trend to make _all_ the GNU-Linux tools disappear, and have _everything_ incorporated into systemd ? How come that Lennart Poettering is so powerful/important? "He's just this guy." But he says something will/must happen, and we all jump to. :-? Lisi He isn't, Lisi. =) If I might offer an opinion at the risk of feeding the trolls, some people just have a bad reaction to systemd in general, claiming that it is "absorbing" everything in sight. This is not entirely inaccurate, but it is certainly not true either. Reality is, as always, somewhere in the middle. People have made many claims about systemd's "monolithic design" that I find rather odd, when they have no problem with the Linux kernel for using the same techniques: linking binary modules. They had to find someone to blame for the "systemd problem", so they selected Lennart Poettering because he is the one of the team who helped create systemd. He is also a most vocal critic of traditional UNIX, which makes him the easiest target. The reality of the situation is that "su" is part of the POSIX standard, period. The POSIX standard keeps the various UNIXs: Linux, FreeBSD, etc compatible enough to share code. No matter what Mr. Poettering thinks or does, or even if systemd offers an alternative - "su" is not going anywhere. That is the reason that "su" is installed on Debian by default, even if you use "sudo." T.J.
Re: new laptop: DVD or Blu-ray
On 08/28/2015 03:55 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: Since this all stays a bit obscure, how about this summary statement: Be aware that inserting a commercial Blu-ray video disc into the drive can have undesired effects on the overall video decoding and display system. (This does not affect the use of the BD drive with self-burned BD media.) As I said in an earlier post, that sums it up, yes. With one last proviso, in that let's hope they never put out a update that triggers an existing bug in your firmware that bricks the drive. Unlikely to the point of nil, but not entirely impossible. It is the unforeseen consequences of a "self annealing" DRM that concern me. Since they clearly have not tested every forced update on every model of player/drive, the results cannot be predicted with 100% certainty. AACS can target an individual player not by modifying its firmware but rather by invalidating its decryption keys for all newly produced BD-ROM media. It is correct in that it does not modify the firmware that operates equipment specifically, ie the controller. However, BD devices themselves retain disc keys in the form of flash storage in the player/drive's electronics. If the studios revoke a decryption key, the player is essentially "bricked" for playback of anything that uses that key. In this theory, players like AnyDVD and makemkv keep compromised keys (e.g in file keydb.cfg) and their warnings tell that the currently used compromised key is not of use with the given video. I.e. one needs to get new compromised player keys, which were harvested after the given video disc was pressed. Yes, that is why there are no "end all" solutions to BD playback with unsanctioned players. Developers of things like makemkv are playing a tug of war with the studios. Pointless, really. BD was deliberately designed for this outcome. If you want proper BD on Linux, you will have to buy a license and develop a sanctioned player - which means it would not be FOSS.
Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
On 08/31/2015 05:14 AM, Joel Rees wrote: Actually, there's a couple or three questions going begging here, that I'd like to ask: Sure, ask away! =) (1) TJ, have you ever built LFS? Or, even better, built a running OS on top of the Linux kernel without even the help of the LFS tutorial and tool set? No, I have never used LFS. I have, however rebuilt or otherwise modified: Debian, Gentoo, RedHat and others over the last couple decades. That is not including other things Unix: like Solaris. No, I have not always had documentation and sometimes had to figure it would myself. Is there a more specific answer you wanted? (1a) If you have, have you ever implemented your own init system for a Linux-based OS that you built yourself? No, I never had a reason to. As with many things, necessity breeds invention. I have had no reason to invent my own when I can modify an existing one to do what I want. With respect, I doubt most programmers would bother creating an entirely new init unless they had a pressing need or just wanted something new. The whole point of open source is adaptation. There are quite a few inits to chose from. The fact that Systemd was created in addition to the dozen or so previously existed probably had more to do with cgroups than anything else if you ask me. (2) Having done that much, have you ever kept that system maintained and updated, even at just the level of keeping only the critical applications patched or updated against vulnerabilities on a timely basis? Yes, I have. I used to manage servers for ISPs. Yes, I'd even patched them by hand because the OEM no longer provided updates. Okay, there's actually one more question here: (3) Have you ever done the first two while holding down a full-time, 40+ hour a week job that doesn't particularly make allowances for employees that need to spend the time necessary for maintaining their OS? Well, I can honestly say "No." As I said, I have never bothered to write a new init from scratch. What you are really asking is when I was working other jobs as we all have, and maintain my own systems as best I could on my own time. Sure. We all do the best we can. None of us are perfect and I have never claimed to be either. If you have, how long did you keep it up without developing personality issues for lack of sleep, developing dysfunctional digestion problems like ulcers and diabetes, and/or ending up breaking up your family? Well, to be perfectly honest, I do have some of those problems. Some are bad enough to where I am probably on medication for the rest of my life. I even have a few others heaped on top of them that you didn't mention, like cerebral palsy and arthritis. Actually, cerebral palsy is why I got into computers in the first place. I understand why you asked. You are probably wondering if I have unreasonable expectations of others. I don't. I don't expect someone like Doug to compile everything from scratch, or you to rebuild Debian by yourself. Conversely, I do expect anyone - myself included - to back up what they are saying with good reasons and at least some experience. I also prefer that in discussions of this nature, that people maintain some logical distance - separating the person from the code. Lennart Poettering is not systemd and systemd is not Lennart Poettering. If that is not possible, then I really see no point in continuing. A lot of people posting over systemd forget or do not realize a lot of important details - for example: 1. Many other people had added and subtracted from the code before you or I ever got our hands on it, including Debian. 2. GCC is also a finicky beast, and is hardly bug free. It matters what compiler is used, even when compiling the kernel, much less anything else. You can introduce bugs into software just by using a different version of GCC than what the developers are using. 3. The management tools for systemd are written in Python. I personally find it a very questionable choice. It can be considered famous for hard to find runtime bugs. Take care! T.J.
Re: "su is really a broken concept"
On Tue, 2015-09-01 at 01:25 +0100, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > Lennart Poettering > (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622): > > > Long story short: su is really a broken concept. > > > > Christian Seiler: > > > > So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific > > new use cases don't work properly with it. > > I don't think so. It is what it is. If someone can do it better, and still keep it compatible with POSIX, more power to them. Just let the rest of us chose which we want. That is the open way. T.J.
Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
On 09/01/2015 09:11 AM, Joel Rees wrote: I'm asking if you have built an OS from scratch, including the userland tools and apps, for a specific, non-trivial purpose. That depends. If you consider using LFS to be the only answer you will accept, then "No", since as I said, I have never used it. If you consider that I have taken existing code, compiled, rearranged, or added to it to save time, then the answer might be "Yes." depending on if you accept the answer provisionally codebase, then I do not see why we are even having it is very likely that no one on this list as done anything of the sort. If you are setting the bar to ignore anything I might comment on, then I suspect I will fall short of your expectations no matter what I have done. I'm not asking for your CV/resume. That is not including other things Unix: like Solaris. No, I have not always had documentation and sometimes had to figure it would myself. Documentation is not really the issue. Is there a more specific answer you wanted? You have already given me your answer. (1a) If you have, have you ever implemented your own init system for a Linux-based OS that you built yourself? No, I never had a reason to. Clearly. As with many things, necessity breeds invention. I have had no reason to invent my own when I can modify an existing one to do what I want. And there we have, in a nutshell, why it's a little disingenuous of you to raise the "You can always build your own!" argument. You haven't done this one. With respect, Should I believe you when you say that? (I know it seems to be picky of me, but I've often found that this particular expression is used more in the ironic mood. So I ask. Not that it's fair of me to ask, because I know it's not a question that can be answered meaningfully. But please don't ask me to assume that assertion means anything, either.) I doubt most programmers would bother creating an entirely new init unless they had a pressing need or just wanted something new. The whole point of open source is adaptation. Perhaps it is to you. But if I needed only adaptation, the Macintosh is a much more comfortable environment to do the adaptation thing in. I have other needs. Unfortunately, there is no current OS/community that can provide me those needs. The nice, though uncomfortable, thing about the systemd business is that it brought my attention to that fact. There are quite a few inits to chose from. The fact that Systemd was created in addition to the dozen or so previously existed probably had more to do with cgroups than anything else if you ask me. Well, I never said I cared much for cgroups, either. Quite the opposite, really. cgroups is, in fact, part of the stuff I specifically do not need in my OS. (2) Having done that much, have you ever kept that system maintained and updated, even at just the level of keeping only the critical applications patched or updated against vulnerabilities on a timely basis? Yes, I have. Well, ... I used to manage servers for ISPs. Yes, I'd even patched them by hand because the OEM no longer provided updates. Hey, we've all managed servers and/or workstations here, I think. Or we are learning how. That's not the question I'm asking. And, since you haven't built the OS from scratch, ... No. I beg to disagree with you, but I don't think you have maintained an OS you've built from scratch. Sorry. Your CV looks promising, but that's not what I'm asking you about. Okay, there's actually one more question here: (3) Have you ever done the first two while holding down a full-time, 40+ hour a week job that doesn't particularly make allowances for employees that need to spend the time necessary for maintaining their OS? Well, I can honestly say "No." As I said, I have never bothered to write a new init from scratch. There it is. What you are really asking Please don't put words in my mouth. is when I was working other jobs as we all have, and maintain my own systems as best I could on my own time. Sure. We all do the best we can. None of us are perfect and I have never claimed to be either. Perfection is hard to achieve, as el viejo used to say. It's also not really what I'm asking about. If you have, how long did you keep it up without developing personality issues for lack of sleep, developing dysfunctional digestion problems like ulcers and diabetes, and/or ending up breaking up your family? Well, to be perfectly honest, I do have some of those problems. Some are bad enough to where I am probably on medication for the rest of my life. Sorry to hear that. There are doctors who want to get me on medications for life, too. Fortunately, I know just enough medicine to avoid needing what they sell. I don't think they are particularly evil, but what they want me to take would kill me. Not immediately, just by gradually making it impossible for me to keep any sort of job at all. Maybe my non-standard health has somethi
Re: "su is really a broken concept"
You're probably right, Jonathan. "Su" is so common that it easy to make that error. After looking at the current POSIX list, I did not find it. Thank you for pointing that out. Be well! T.J. On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:55 PM, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard < j.deboynepollard-newsgro...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > T.J. Duchene: > >> If someone can do it better, and still keep it compatible with POSIX, >> more power to them. >> > > This is not the first place where someone has randomly thrown POSIX into > the discussion. "su" is outwith the scope of the POSIX standard. It's in > the SVID, but to my knowledge "su" never made into POSIX. The SUS mentions > it in passing under setuid() as a non-conformant application. > >
