Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 11:02:47 +0900, Joel Rees wrote: [207 line essay snipped] I was eating my breakfast Rice Krispies while reading this. The soothing Snap, Crackle and Pop helped to put the right perspective on what was said. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/23092014093618.7a9fa28a3...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On Mon 22 Sep 2014 at 19:57:37 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: [Blog post of doubtful relevance on -user snipped] Some kind person has created a mailing list which looks like the ideal place to discuss issues of this nature. Please consider using it. https://lists.debian.org/20140921202947.GA14955@sprite > I'm going to continue working with Funtoo, and also trying PC-BSD in > the next several days. I'll let you know. Don't break a leg; we would't be distraught if you found a better use for your time. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923084849.gn4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Power Mac G4 stuck "Loading second stage bootstrap"
Hi Bruno, I haven’t been called “Ricky” by anyone since the last of my aunt’s died 10 years ago! It feels kinda sweet. But let’s stick with plain old “Rick”. OK, so you’ve got a Wheezy netinst CD. and it’s really a G5 (they are kind of rare, so I wanted to be sure — one of my machines is almost identical!) Without a working OS, you will need to find a way to eject the CD tray in order to boot from it. Here’s the trick: Turn on the machine while holding down the “ALT” key. After the “bong” it will show a graphical screen with a little spinning “wrist-watch” cursor (probably in the upper left corner). There will also be an icon in the middle of the screen that is supposed to represent a hard disk. It may have a little picture of Tux, the Linux penguin. That represents your hard disk with the broken Jessie Gnu/Linux. The cursor will spin for about a minute (it will feel like a long time, but I think it’s really only about 60 seconds) and eventually turn into an arrow cursor. While the cursor is spinning the keyboard will be unresponsive. Once it stops spinning you can proceed. At this point, hit the “eject” key on your keyboard (triangle pointing upwards with a line under it) and the CD tray will eject. Put the CD in the G5’s drive-tray and close the tray. The cursor will go back to spinning for another minute. When it stops, there will be two icons in the middle of the screen. One will be the “disk” that we saw before, the other will represent the install CD. Hit the “tab” key (or use the mouse) to highlight the CD icon. Then hit the return key and it will boot from the CD. You will get a “boot:” prompt and some explanatory text before it. Hit the “tab” key to see a list of the various ways to install Wheezy. You want the simplest-possible option, with the minimum-effort. So type “install” at the prompt. Hit “return” and you’re off and installing! Answer all the questions. If you get to any questions you don’t understand, send me an email and I’ll try to guide you through it. Enjoy! Rick On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:51 PM, bruno evangelista wrote: > You said: If you can make a Wheezy “netinst” disk on some other computer > (Windows, Linux or Mac) please let me know and we’ll take it one step at a > time from there. It is done. > > You said: We’ll take it one step at a time from there. I say: I am eager > for the next steps. > > Thank you very much, Ricky. > > Bruno -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/32eadaf9-8203-4a4a-a660-a60ec7bc8...@pobox.com
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
Am Dienstag, 23. September 2014, 11:02:47 schrieb Joel Rees: > There are some people who are trying to squelch conversations on this > list with cries of FUD! FUD! Honestly: I stopped reading there. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2052642.Fe4aN0RixI@merkaba
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
Dear Steve, On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 07:57:37PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Funtoo is most famous for a permanent ban on systemd. As interesting as your OS experiments are, I do wonder whether debian-user is the right place to be writing about them. Have you considered blogging? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923090835.GA32152@debian
Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream (was: Re: There is no choice)
Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 23:50:46 schrieb lee: > Martin Steigerwald writes: > > Am Montag, 22. September 2014, 03:41:53 schrieb lee: > >> "Andrew M.A. Cater" writes: > >> > Jessie freezes no later than November 5th 2014. Allow folk who are > >> > trying > >> > to work on the distribution to work on it and not to have to intervene > >> > in > >> > this sort of discussion, please. > >> > >> Nobody prevents them from doing either or forces them to do anything. > >> > >> Once they have finished their work, Debian will have fallen under the > >> control of systemd. Then what will it take to undo the damage? > > > > Do you really think this decision is *set in stone*. > > It doesn't look as if it's not. > > > I have full trust in debian developer community that if need be, they > > could > > switch the init system once again. Especially as the others are still > > there in the archive. It would be work, but I think its certainly doable. > > They might be able to make another init system the default. Do you > really think they will be able to prevent all the other software from > depending on a particular init system or parts of it? Well… thats to be taken upstream, isn´t it? > > So I don´t think systemd upstream has the power to control Debian. > > > > Debian is a community project. No single upstream is going to control it. > > Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable. Do you > know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) systemd? And > gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like this. > > Supporting systemd and making systemd even the default init system opens > the door for it to increasingly take control of software totally > unrelated to an init system a bit wider. It seems that this door cannot > be closed anymore. Didn´t know about GIMP. Okay, point taken. Adopting it encourages this behavour. Yet, there is still choice. You can avoid upstream who depend on systemd. Debian itself still is able to run without systemd as far as I know. I dislike this black and white thinking. Do I see dangers with systemd? Yes, I do. Do I also see the advantages it brings? Yes, I do. Its not black, nor white, but something in between. And still I think its important to take this upstream. Or to *help*. Make a logind that does not depend on systemd. Offer it to the upstreams that need it. > > While I still am not sure what to thing about systemd, there are things I > > like and things I dislike about it, I appreciate a discussion about it > > that goes beyond spreading FUD. > > Experiencing that the devs of systemd refuse to fix their > misunderstanding of what "disabled" means, looking at the poor > documentation of systemd and having found it ridiculously troublesome to > accomplish a very simple task --- i. e. getting squid-2.7 started and > shut down correctly --- is enough for me to utterly dislike it. I was able to get atop and atopacctd started just fine with systemd service files in preparation for atop 2.1 debian package (which will also have init scripts). I had some specialized questions and was answered that just nice on IRC on debian-systemd channel. > Other issues have been pointed out in the discussion here and > otherwhere, and I'm finding them much worse. Actually I raised the resistance and opposotion against systemd issue on upstream mailing list, as I believe there its much more useful than here: [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of polarity and resistance http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-September/023290.html And I also reported another bug at least related to systemd, which I think is quite grave: Bug#762558: Acknowledgement (systemd fails to get dbus connection while dbus is running) https://bugs.debian.org/762558 So my challenge to you and all others who dislike things about systemd: Voice your concerns upstream. systemd-devel is a mailinglist anyone can subscribe to. For it to be most effective: Be polite, be gentle, but also be clear, descriptive and detailed with your concerns. Give concrete examples. So my challenge is to you: *Act* for change. Instead of just venting your frustration here, which will do nothing, absolutely and utterly nothing for any change! But basically the opposite, the more energy you put into venting engaging here in a ton of threads, the less energy you will have to bring forth change. I bet most of those here, who criticize systemd never ever have even *tried* to take any of this upstream. I am delighted to see any proof of that you did. Just really important: Watch your tone. If you are disrepectful, then chances are that you will be ignored. And IMHO *rightfully* so. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On 2014-09-23, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Am Dienstag, 23. September 2014, 11:02:47 schrieb Joel Rees: >> There are some people who are trying to squelch conversations on this >> list with cries of FUD! FUD! > > Honestly: I stopped reading there. > I didn't get past the subject line. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm22fkb.2hq.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On 23. sep. 2014 04:02, Joel Rees wrote: [snipped] Just to off-set the negative comments, I'd say Joel R. States his case pretty well, though I think dropping the sarcasm-bit would have improved it. I'll paraphrase my understanding of A FEW of Joel's points, just to see if I read him correctly. Please let me know if I have misunderstood. - A few of Joel's points: --- 1) Quite a few developers feel the need for training-wheels to get inter-process-communication and process-control right. 2) Systemd is one way of gaining said training-wheels. The way that seems to be the preferred among the majority, 2) Being monolithic, systemd ends up introducing inter-dependencies that need not be introduced. 3) Putting in an extra layer to control settings in the kernel and file-system introduces un-needed complexity and confusion. Now, for the sake of argument let's take as given that my understanding of Joel is more-or-less correct, and furthermore that the points are valid. ** My thinking in response to theese points ** Given that systemd does have some negative side-effects, it would be desirable to have an alternative. One of: a) remove the need for training-wheels (raise the bar on entry to being a developer, or give better training). b) introduce an alternative set of training wheels. c) stop debian development. Even if neither a) or b) happens, nothing will be able to force c). Nothing will ever force anything in an open source project. The only "force" is the dynamic between number of developers willing to put in the work, and number of users willing to use the result. So, I guess this comes back to "show us the code" (or the howtos for doing it differently). Apparently Joel has (valid! ) other commitments. There are people willing and able to work on systemd. Unless someone else steps up with code or an online class in linux IPC, I'd say the case can be closed. That "online class in linux IPC" would not only need to teach code that works, it would need to capture mind-share to such an extent that most people would say "that is the linux way". The situation to day, with e.g. the /etc/postfix/master.cf as "state of the art", while competing with grafted-on-crutches such as daemontools means a poor admin can not stay within his comfort-zone if he wishes to run any box he may encounter. Anything that reduces that kind of stress, will gain ground. I think that any alternative, to succeed. would need to cover the same broad base as systemd, either through code, or universally accepted "best practice" on a number of areas. Starting a movement and getting the man-power to do that is no easy task. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54214b80.9080...@alstadheim.priv.no
Re: Power Mac G4 stuck "Loading second stage bootstrap"
On Tuesday 23 September 2014 09:55:36 Rick Thomas wrote: > Without a working OS, you will need to find a way to eject the CD tray in > order to boot from it. Here’s the trick: Don't Macs have paper-clip holes? (Genuine question - I haven't got access to a Mac.) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409231132.59226.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: fvwm: was i3 sticky/floating windows (brasero requires gvfs)
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:54:43 +0200 lee sent: > Why are things going wrong with it for you, and what > things? Sorry for the noise Lee. I found what the thing was called. It was a laptop ButtonBar and I got rid of it. So it's done. Thanks for your help, Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 *** One of the rarest things that a man ever does is to do the best he can. - Josh Billings *** Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923204501.7727224f@taogypsy
Re: apt-get update problem
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 06:20:38PM -0700, John Conover wrote: > > Running "apt-get update" on one of my machines gives: > > W: Failed to fetch > copy:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/Debian%20GNU_Linux%207%20%5fWheezy%5f%20-%20Official%20Snapshot%20i386%20LIVE_INSTALL%20Binary%2020140723-18:32_dists_wheezy_main_binary-i386_Packages > Failed to stat - stat (2: No such file or directory) That looks like you're installing from a CD/DVD. I might be wrong but I don't think you need to do "update" if you're using a CD; apt-cdrom will take care of fetching the index from the disc. So, if your only source of packages is the CD, then ignore the warning and install away. If you are using a mixture of CD and internet, then you probably want to remove the CD from your /etc/apt/sources.list as it will soon get outdated by the internet mirrors. > signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Challenge to you: Voice your concerns regarding systemd upstream
On 09/23/2014 05:14 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: So my challenge is to you: *Act* for change. Instead of just venting your frustration here, which will do nothing, absolutely and utterly nothing for any change! But basically the opposite, the more energy you put into venting engaging here in a ton of threads, the less energy you will have to bring forth change. I bet most of those here, who criticize systemd never ever have even *tried* to take any of this upstream. I am delighted to see any proof of that you did. Just really important: Watch your tone. If you are disrepectful, then chances are that you will be ignored. And IMHO *rightfully* so. Ciao, My take is that this is not a problem with upstreams, including systemd. It's useless to bother upstreams with Debian's internal issues, which are centered around a growing dependency on Red Hat's one-size-fits-all business model, which could be a poison pill that kills Debian as collateral damage. In that sense maybe you could call it an "upstream" issue, but it's one that I suspect is particularly impervious to downstream feedback (except maybe from RHT shareholders). The only realistic user option for the majority is to stop using. That exodus, as far as I can tell, has already started with the most technical users. They are glad to use hobby project software but don't have time to referee internet squabbles. Their main interest now will be to gauge risk going forward or just post out of curiosity to ask WTF is happening to Debian? From my perspective the most important users in the server space and the mobile/embedded ARM space tend to think this not going well for Debian which was the underdog to begin with, but systemd is a big setback and will cause it to be dropped like a hot potato. I only have a small window to see through but have been watching closely for years. I am always looking for alternate options on this. Debian use can make a difference, by exercising choice. For Debian users to make a difference, Debian has to fix Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54215824.9020...@ix.netcom.com
Re: There is no choice
On 23/09/14 00:53, lee wrote: Fortunately, you don't even need to install it on Debian. Except that in Wheezy an awful lot of packages depend on libpulse0 even though they work perfectly well without Pulseaudio, and they'll create a directory under $HOME that contains nothing more than a broken link. And this behaviour is symptomatic. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lvrmns$hcb$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: There is no choice
On 22/09/14 23:53, lee wrote: And don't mention multiple sound cards (which Joe can't even imagine to have) ... Funnily enough, a substantial number of non-technical computer users do, in fact, have multiple audio devices in their desktop computers. For example, they might have a set of speakers plugged into the computer's built-in audio socket to play music, movie audio, and video game sound effects over, and a bluetooth or USB headset to use with things like Skype. The above arrangement is definitely on the list of things that are expected to work correctly with pulseaudio, and in respect of which bug reports / support requests should be filed if they don't. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/542160e2.8030...@zen.co.uk
Re: [OT] SSH Server for Android
Hi Joel, Terminal IDE is not exactly what i'm looking for. I need control my android phone from PC. I'm looking for a opensource project, because i'll probably make customizations. On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > 2014/09/23 2:24 "Danilo Sampaio" : > > > > Hi guys, > > > > I know this topic is somewhat out of debian context, but someone knows a > opensource project like a SSH Server for Android, with X11 Session Forward > Support? > > > > Thanks. > > Not exactly what you're looking for, but, I'm using an app from the play > store called "Terminal IDE". It has ssh. No X11. 4/virtual consoles and a > bit of built-in tutorial. Has a nice alternative virtual keyboard and some > drivers that might make it easier to use some USB keyboards. It's helping > me to figure out Google' s SDK, too, because I can use ssh over the stupid > USB cable. (Sure would have preferred an ethernet connector.) > > I occasionally use the app "No Root Debian". It isn't very stable, but I > can compile a small personal project using it. Synaptic sort of works, but > it dies after installing things. You need a USB keyboard and mouse to use > it comfortably. gedit works. If I had more room on the internal flash for > installing things, I could probably install enough to get it to be stable > enough to read and write e-mail and browse the web. > > Joel Rees > -- *Danilo Sampaio* Analista de Sistemas Sr. | Application Services *Capgemini | Brasil* Tel.: 55 85 - jdanilo.si...@capgemini.com // http://br.capgemini.com Av. Des. Moreira - Nº 2.800, Sala 806, Fortaleza - CE *People matter, results count.*
Re: There is no choice
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + > "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > > > > > > It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > > breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > > instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience > > may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. > > > Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some > purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more out-of-date > FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, or that I'm > somehow not allowed to criticise it. No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed manufacturer you go along to the tractor service department and complain incessantly. How do you think that would go down? It is the wrong Mailing List!!! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923122605.GH11965@tal
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On 9/22/2014 10:02 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > There are some people who are trying to squelch conversations on this > list with cries of FUD! FUD! Well said, Joel. And it's interesting to see who reads it and who doesn't. No surprises, I must say. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421672f.9030...@attglobal.net
Re: apt-get update problem
Darac Marjal writes: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 06:20:38PM -0700, John Conover wrote: > > > > Running "apt-get update" on one of my machines gives: > > > > W: Failed to fetch > > copy:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/Debian%20GNU_Linux%207%20%5fWheezy%5f%20-%20Official%20Snapshot%20i386%20LIVE_INSTALL%20Binary%2020140723-18:32_dists_wheezy_main_binary-i386_Packages > > Failed to stat - stat (2: No such file or directory) > > That looks like you're installing from a CD/DVD. I might be wrong but I > don't think you need to do "update" if you're using a CD; apt-cdrom will > take care of fetching the index from the disc. > > So, if your only source of packages is the CD, then ignore the warning > and install away. If you are using a mixture of CD and internet, then > you probably want to remove the CD from your /etc/apt/sources.list as it > will soon get outdated by the internet mirrors. > That was exactly what it was-the CD line /etc/apt/sources.list was not commented out from the install from the DVD. Thanks, Darac, John -- John Conover, cono...@rahul.net, http://www.johncon.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923123010.7176.qm...@rahul.net
Re: There is no choice
On 9/23/2014 8:26 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: >> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + >> "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: >> >> >>> >>> It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what >>> breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of >>> instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience >>> may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. >>> >> Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some >> purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more out-of-date >> FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, or that I'm >> somehow not allowed to criticise it. > > No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't > happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed manufacturer > you go along to the tractor service department and complain incessantly. > How do you think that would go down? > > It is the wrong Mailing List!!! > A much closer example would be if you only had one tractor dealer available, and he decided only to carry one tractor. And that one tractor had everything in one piece - plow, disc, planter, 19 different harvesters for different crops (corn, wheat, cotton, turnips, etc.). And every time you took to the field you had to take all that with you. BTW - all of them are dependent on each other - and if the corn harvester fails, you can't plow your fields or plant your wheat. That is what systemd does. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54216925.5010...@attglobal.net
Re: pc version of yahoo.com
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 03:09:39PM -0700, Mike McClain wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:41:18AM -0400, Scott Lair wrote: > > Anyone having trouble getting to yahoo.com pc version in wheezy? I keep > > getting the mobile version. I have tried updating iceweasel to the > > backported version, cleared the cache, but still get the mobile > > version. Even when I click on the pc version on yahoo's site it brings > > up the mobile version. Chromium works ok, but not iceweasel. > > I have been having the same problem with mu.yahoo.com and iceweasel. > A google search pointed me to https://my.yahoo.com/?m=1 which gave me > my regular mu.yahoo page back. > >From my viewpoint most of yahoo's 'improvements' aren't. They don't even have an abuse email address anymore! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923124840.GI11965@tal
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 08:27:27 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 9/22/2014 10:02 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > > There are some people who are trying to squelch conversations on this > > list with cries of FUD! FUD! > > > > Well said, Joel. And it's interesting to see who reads it and who > doesn't. No surprises, I must say. I read it all, in-between reading the back and sides of my Rice Krispies box. Which will have the most life-changing effect on me is still in the balance. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/23092014140444.50e77fa58...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Power Mac G4 stuck "Loading second stage bootstrap"
On Tuesday 23 September 2014 11:32:59 Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 09:55:36 Rick Thomas wrote: > > Without a working OS, you will need to find a way to eject the CD tray in > > order to boot from it. Here’s the trick: > > Don't Macs have paper-clip holes? (Genuine question - I haven't got access > to a Mac.) Just STFW and found the answer. Yes, they do. http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2285 If you are unable to eject a disc through the traditional methods (for example; dragging the disc icon to the Trash, or in the case of bootable CDs, holding down the mouse button upon restarting your iMac) you should try to eject the disc manually. Insert a blunt object, such as the end of a paper clip, into the manual eject hole. For complete instructions on using the manual eject button, refer to article 58465: "iMac (Slot Loading): How to Eject a CD". Why not try it before going in for such a complicated procedure? The computer doesn't even have to be running! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409231409.58985.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] SSH Server for Android
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Danilo Sampaio wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Terminal IDE is not exactly what i'm looking for. I need control my android > phone from PC. I'm looking for a opensource project, because i'll probably > make customizations. Terminal IDE does have an ssh server. But it idoesn't get you control over the entire device Well, if you want something more than what Terminal IDE or No-Root Debian can get you, you're going to have to use the Android SDK and build your own. Or root/jailbreak your device, etc., which are both rather risky. > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Joel Rees wrote: >> >> 2014/09/23 2:24 "Danilo Sampaio" : >> > >> > Hi guys, >> > >> > I know this topic is somewhat out of debian context, but someone knows a >> > opensource project like a SSH Server for Android, with X11 Session Forward >> > Support? >> > >> > Thanks. >> >> Not exactly what you're looking for, but, I'm using an app from the play >> store called "Terminal IDE". It has ssh. No X11. 4/virtual consoles and a >> bit of built-in tutorial. Has a nice alternative virtual keyboard and some >> drivers that might make it easier to use some USB keyboards. It's helping me >> to figure out Google' s SDK, too, because I can use ssh over the stupid USB >> cable. (Sure would have preferred an ethernet connector.) >> >> I occasionally use the app "No Root Debian". It isn't very stable, but I >> can compile a small personal project using it. Synaptic sort of works, but >> it dies after installing things. You need a USB keyboard and mouse to use it >> comfortably. gedit works. If I had more room on the internal flash for >> installing things, I could probably install enough to get it to be stable >> enough to read and write e-mail and browse the web. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43iptaw1snov51iyqxdsday+oeelevxysl6hzakbfyhs...@mail.gmail.com
Re: apt-get update problem
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 06:20:38PM -0700, John Conover wrote:
>
> Running "apt-get update" on one of my machines gives:
>
> W: Failed to fetch
> copy:/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/Debian%20GNU_Linux%207%20%5fWheezy%5f%20-%20Official%20Snapshot%20i386%20LIVE_INSTALL%20Binary%2020140723-18:32_dists_wheezy_main_binary-i386_Packages
> Failed to stat - stat (2: No such file or directory)
>
> E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old
> ones used instead.
>
> and apt-get stops.
>
> Can this be repaired without a reinstall?
Of course!
What is the output of:
grep -v '^$\|^#\|^\s*\#' /etc/apt/sources.list{,.d/*}
Is this the first time you are running "apt-get update" on this machine.
Personally, I'd run as root
# rm /var/lib/apt/lists/partial/*
then try running "apt-get update" again, and see if that fixes it.
It won't do any harm.
--
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
--
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Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923131429.GJ11965@tal
Re: Power Mac G4 stuck "Loading second stage bootstrap"
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 11:32:59 Lisi Reisz wrote: >> On Tuesday 23 September 2014 09:55:36 Rick Thomas wrote: >> > Without a working OS, you will need to find a way to eject the CD tray in >> > order to boot from it. Here’s the trick: >> >> Don't Macs have paper-clip holes? (Genuine question - I haven't got access >> to a Mac.) > > Just STFW and found the answer. Yes, they do. > > http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2285 > > If you are unable to eject a disc through the traditional methods (for > example; dragging the disc icon to the Trash, or in the case of bootable CDs, > holding down the mouse button upon restarting your iMac) you should try to > eject the disc manually. Insert a blunt object, such as the end of a paper > clip, into the manual eject hole. For complete instructions on using the > manual eject button, refer to article 58465: "iMac (Slot Loading): How to > Eject a CD". > > > Why not try it before going in for such a complicated procedure? The computer > doesn't even have to be running! > > Lisi Some models do, some don't. You found one that did. My Mac Mini doesn't. I'm looking at that G5 that Rick linked to and thinking it may well not. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43ips-ayxtucpx0shns+t34zqrmrh3vom_fv2b9swi3y...@mail.gmail.com
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:35:49AM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 9/23/2014 8:26 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: > >> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + > >> "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > >> > >> > >>> > >>> It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > >>> breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > >>> instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience > >>> may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. > >>> > >> Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some > >> purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more out-of-date > >> FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, or that I'm > >> somehow not allowed to criticise it. > > > > No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't > > happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed manufacturer > > you go along to the tractor service department and complain incessantly. > > How do you think that would go down? > > > > It is the wrong Mailing List!!! > > > > A much closer example would be if you only had one tractor dealer > available, and he decided only to carry one tractor. And that one > tractor had everything in one piece - plow, disc, planter, 19 different > harvesters for different crops (corn, wheat, cotton, turnips, etc.). > And every time you took to the field you had to take all that with you. > > BTW - all of them are dependent on each other - and if the corn > harvester fails, you can't plow your fields or plant your wheat. > > That is what systemd does. You still don't get it. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923133652.GB15492@tal
Re: There is no choice
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 00:26:06 +1200 Chris Bannister wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + > > "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > > > breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > > > instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience > > > may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. > > > > > Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some > > purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more > > out-of-date FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, > > or that I'm somehow not allowed to criticise it. > > No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't > happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed > manufacturer you go along to the tractor service department and > complain incessantly. How do you think that would go down? > > It is the wrong Mailing List!!! > Why? I'm a Debian user, and I'm interested in other Debian users' opinions and experiences. As Lisi and others have pointed out, the design of systemd and the decision of Debian to make systemd the 'default', or in practice the only init system, are set in stone. There's nothing to discuss. The level of interest of either systemd developers or Debian developers in a single user's opinion is significantly less than zero. How can it be otherwise? The interest of either group in offering any advice about possible avoidance of systemd is similarly less than zero, again for obvious reasons. The only people who may have any constructive advice are here, in Debian-user. And here is also where the help is for living with systemd. I've had help from Michael Biebl and others with a couple of problems, one of which finally went away of its own accord four or five days ago. I'll only get help from higher up if I can provide enough information for a useful bug report, and I haven't yet learned enough to do so with my recent problems. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923145315.0164b...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: There is no choice
On 9/23/2014 9:36 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:35:49AM -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> On 9/23/2014 8:26 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > > It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience > may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. > Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more out-of-date FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, or that I'm somehow not allowed to criticise it. >>> >>> No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't >>> happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed manufacturer >>> you go along to the tractor service department and complain incessantly. >>> How do you think that would go down? >>> >>> It is the wrong Mailing List!!! >>> >> >> A much closer example would be if you only had one tractor dealer >> available, and he decided only to carry one tractor. And that one >> tractor had everything in one piece - plow, disc, planter, 19 different >> harvesters for different crops (corn, wheat, cotton, turnips, etc.). >> And every time you took to the field you had to take all that with you. >> >> BTW - all of them are dependent on each other - and if the corn >> harvester fails, you can't plow your fields or plant your wheat. >> >> That is what systemd does. > > You still don't get it. > I get it, all right. You are trying to squelch a discussion because you don't agree with it. My tractor example is much closer to reality than yours is. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54217b95.20...@attglobal.net
Re: apache2 what is the standard way to enable modules?
Bob Proulx writes: > a2enmod takes a simple name like "cgi" not a name with .load or .conf > on the end like "cgi.load". You want "a2enmod cgi" without the > ".load" on the end. Yeah, I finally got that part. But still not seeing what is bad about what I did... after all it did allow the cgi scripts to start working: >From a previous post: >> Thanks for the push... Tinkering with your suggestion lead me to read >> the `LoadModule' lines on the files in mods-available. >> >> The line in cgi.load: >> LoadModule cgi_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_cgi.so >> >> Looked the most promising, so I tried: >> >>a2enmod cgi.load >> >> But it told me my MPM(?) seemed to be threaded so it gave me `cgid.conf' >> and `cgid.load'... and away it went... cgi firing on all 8 cylinders. That last bit was sort of warning I guess and the it proceeded to create the needed symlinks only with cgid.* in there names. After that command above, cgi scripts commenced to working. Apparently the command figured out what needed to be done. So, anyway... now I know a better and more appropriate command to use. Thanks to all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8761geh1tu@reader.local.lan
Re: apache2 what is the standard way to enable modules?
On 23/09/14 at 10:02am, Harry Putnam wrote: > Bob Proulx writes: > > > a2enmod takes a simple name like "cgi" not a name with .load or .conf > > on the end like "cgi.load". You want "a2enmod cgi" without the > > ".load" on the end. > > Yeah, I finally got that part. > > But still not seeing what is bad about what I did... after all it did > allow the cgi scripts to start working: Played with this by myself and yes, a2enmod also works if you add .load to the module name. > > >From a previous post: > > >> Thanks for the push... Tinkering with your suggestion lead me to read > >> the `LoadModule' lines on the files in mods-available. > >> > >> The line in cgi.load: > >> LoadModule cgi_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_cgi.so > >> > >> Looked the most promising, so I tried: > >> > >>a2enmod cgi.load > >> > >> But it told me my MPM(?) seemed to be threaded so it gave me `cgid.conf' > >> and `cgid.load'... and away it went... cgi firing on all 8 cylinders. > > That last bit was sort of warning I guess and the it proceeded to > create the needed symlinks only with cgid.* in there names. > > After that command above, cgi scripts commenced to working. Apparently the > command figured out what needed to be done. > > So, anyway... now I know a better and more appropriate command to use. > -- « Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923141125.gb19...@gmail.com
Re: There is no choice
On Tuesday 23 September 2014 14:53:15 Joe wrote: > As Lisi and others have pointed out, the > design of systemd and the decision of Debian to make systemd the > 'default', or in practice the only init system, are set in stone. > There's nothing to discuss. I have never said anything of the kind. I have said only that it is up to the developers to decide what they do. They are volunteers. If someone wants to maintain or develop something else, then obviously they can. There is no stone about it. But DO something constructive. Maintain sysvinit. Write patches for the applications that depend on systend so that they do not depend on systemd. Etc. But stop winging. Stop taking over this list with endless useless complaints. And listen to what anyone else is saying. You want to be heard. Hear others. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409231519.50019.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: /etc/network/interface file auto reset.
On Sb, 20 sep 14, 14:02:43, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Further reading: ... > http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html A kind soul pointed out to me off-list that this link is dead. Apologize for not checking, here is a link to the same document: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/23/2014 at 10:19 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 14:53:15 Joe wrote: > >> As Lisi and others have pointed out, the design of systemd and >> the decision of Debian to make systemd the 'default', or in >> practice the only init system, are set in stone. There's nothing >> to discuss. > > I have never said anything of the kind. I have said only that it > is up to the developers to decide what they do. They are > volunteers. > > If someone wants to maintain or develop something else, then > obviously they can. There is no stone about it. But DO something > constructive. Maintain sysvinit. Write patches for the > applications that depend on systend so that they do not depend on > systemd. As I have pointed out repeatedly, the problem is not that the applications depend on systemd; in fact, often they don't. They depend on external functionality, which happens to be implemented in systemd, and (at least initially) only in systemd. There are two possible solutions to this: change systemd so that that functionality is implemented in a way which does not require systemd to be PID 1 (and preferably so that the functionality is entirely external to, and merely depended on by, systemd), or implement the functionality outside of systemd in such a way that the applications can depend on your implementation instead. That latter approach is what the systemd-shim project has been trying to do; certainly, helping to do so would be a constructive thing to do. But that project has bugs, and will perpetually be playing catch-up to systemd, as long as the systemd project does not embrace (which is distinct from "not reject") the idea of implementing this functionality outside of systemd itself - and that would be the former approach. systemd-shim, and the projects it draws on such as cgmanager, are a workaround for the dependency problems caused by flaws in the design of systemd. A true fix would have to happen in systemd itself, by changing that design. However, since that design appears to be actively intentional, and since changing it in a way which would address those flaws would be a major project and might involve dropping some features, it seems highly unlikely that the systemd developers would agree to making such a change. > Etc. But stop winging. Stop taking over this list with endless > useless complaints. I agree that pure complaints do only so much good, and that that good is - - at least in practice - fairly limited. But complaints are not all that has been happening here, and while the complaints have not been shut down by the posts objecting to the systemd-discussion traffic, it looks to me as if much of the discussion which is not purely complaints and might be more potentially useful *has* been cut off in response to those objections. If you're addressing only the few people who are doing nothing but complaining, then okay, fine (although I'm not 100% positive there is anyone still posting complaints who isn't also, at least occasionally, saying something worth noting). But the comments I see from you read to me as if they are directed at everyone who's taking part in the systemd-related discussions here (aside possibly from people with specific "I saw this problem, how do I fix it?" questions), which is overly broad-brush IMO. > And listen to what anyone else is saying. You want to be heard. > Hear others. This I do agree with. - -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUIYWlAAoJEASpNY00KDJryG8P/0RkWZmWAY3E4U3fTx+iz9Fe TeP376LNCoqwiVQeq4AR2PnS7VDKz1NzGtp6WJDp1BMppz5JnDX5JNPTj6G8DIAU vhGhySbYMV/oHAQa24lHthv1WHa+MMHqbOeNtyfC6K79JqieKyhdy8W1M/MFz+ht FDDIMWoq1B8K/LKBqttr692cCZ0FR1s/AxFlcKJQBPqfcAdkeYsDgFWau9U9gESp B2QMQxgtiPGO4+yQlFP9+RHLxL05RbkAj787xbaeI4DAwY+uWm2tj/dVx94fwKyr G8Ya2wVjfXXeYgONSMVTq/jHfLXwIkYJlztDWyEQMQuIBHht2ls8yKJSrWttdVRj uU8hmGpZO9Yyg+uSYzIVTkYCUnnmx+fo5tP8riBinbp6GGSY8peiGux4afN+IsGZ 6joHp9SHEywGBqZ8Y5q2zc+g4cHtML2tnrGZ0AJcycb2euhqWlU1z+EsQ4JrmLBJ wFzd70KEOsoFk/oi0PP7LisuTS049D5ZSFkbFx2905DZZGhMd7bL+dnAOnIhRE6B O9tJg460ZNP8yJeCCoVkBnex/LUR/kGdXFqkj9ZyRq8aZS9PGBhZ3h9CmE+162rr zlCV9XD7zC8L34tY9CCzYCDaqgeW5cbO0iUMNtp5soxayNPDoonVnpI2mq4SXFnz Hx651WdxYUa6os+lSVuG =/rt3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/542185a5.7000...@fastmail.fm
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 12:29:20 +0200 Håkon Alstadheim wrote: > Apparently Joel has (valid! ) other commitments. There are people > willing and able to work on systemd. Unless someone else steps up > with code or an online class in linux IPC, I'd say the case can be > closed. Huh? The whole point is that they should have *stopped* working on it when they got a good PID 1. Instead they continued work on it in order to subsume half the operating system. Systemd needs less work, not more, unless you count getting rid of the glommed on cruft as work. > That "online class in linux IPC" would not only need to teach code > that works, it would need to capture mind-share to such an extent > that most people would say "that is the linux way". The principle of encapsulation says that IPC should be limited to a "need to know" basis. In other words, if App A screws up, you don't want to be looking in apps B, C, D and E to see if any of them issued a bad message that somehow got misprocessed by app A. Having lots of apps reading and writing dbus is a recipe for hard to trace bugs. > The situation to > day, with e.g. the /etc/postfix/master.cf as "state of the art", SMTP servers are notoriously complex, that's the nature of the beast. I believe qmail gets away from .cf files, but it's still pretty complicated. > while competing with grafted-on-crutches such as daemontools :-) Nice characterization. Please allow me to rephrase.. while competing with clean and simple but relatively unknown software such as daemontools I *really* wish I'd evangelized daemontools on this list before the majority of the systemd conversation occurred. Daemontools is much, much more than a substitute for any init. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923104324.7108b...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: There is no choice
Joe writes: > ...the design of systemd and the decision of Debian to make systemd > the 'default', or in practice the only init system... Not true. "Default" just means that it's the init you get if you don't specify anything else. Other inits are allowed and encouraged but _someone has to develop, package, and maintain them_. > ...are set in stone. The decision to make systemd default for Jessie is final: such things need months (at least!) of lead time (theoretically the decision could be overturned by a GR but I think that most maintainers realize that such a GR would delay the release and don't want that). The details are _not_ final, and the decision could be reversed for a future release. > There's nothing to discuss. There is, at the least, the subject of how to live with it. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87a95qcrxr@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:08:35 +0100 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 07:57:37PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Funtoo is most famous for a permanent ban on systemd. > > As interesting as your OS experiments are, I do wonder whether > debian-user is the right place to be writing about them. Have you > considered blogging? Blogging *is* a good idea. I'll consider that. Thanks. Debian-User is very much one of the right places to put this, because a substantial chunk of users of Debian are looking for an escape route. And look at it another way: If I or anybody else succeeds in mapping out a route to a practical systemd-free environment, and the systemd antifans go there, then Debian-user's systemd fans and agnostics can have a quieter mailing list. Discussions of escape routes now could lead to peace later for those not objecting to a systemd [enabled | cursed] Debian. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923105932.51c8c...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Problem with SSH host keys
Hello, I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade yesterday I'm getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've been connecting to for years: The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the server side. Looking at the openssl, openssh-server and openssh-client change logs I don't see anything that would explain this behavior. Is anyone aware of any changes in openssh-client in jessie that would cause certain server keys that were previously working to be invalid? Keith -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/b1fc61ca1a3abe309a5b8340990ae...@www.nowhere.ca
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:49:52 -0500 John Hasler wrote: > Joe writes: > > ...the design of systemd and the decision of Debian to make systemd > > the 'default', or in practice the only init system... > > Not true. "Default" just means that it's the init you get if you > don't specify anything else. Other inits are allowed and encouraged > but _someone has to develop, package, and maintain them_. I can hack the odd script and drive a compiler, so if there were to be existing software that could do the job with a bit filed off here and there, I'd have a go. But having done a bit more reading recently, it seems likely that any alternative init would have to be written from scratch, that nothing currently existing could be adapted. There are very few people with the knowledge, experience and free time to do that, and I'm certainly not one of them. > > > ...are set in stone. > > The decision to make systemd default for Jessie is final: such things > need months (at least!) of lead time (theoretically the decision could > be overturned by a GR but I think that most maintainers realize that > such a GR would delay the release and don't want that). The details > are _not_ final, and the decision could be reversed for a future > release. > > > There's nothing to discuss. > > There is, at the least, the subject of how to live with it. Thank you. And living with it might well include looking around for alternatives. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923160556.77de9...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
- Original Message - > From: "Keith Lawson" > > Hello, > > I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade yesterday > I'm getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've been > connecting to for years: > > The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. > RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. > Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? > > The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the > server side. Looking at the openssl, openssh-server and openssh-client > change logs I don't see anything that would explain this behavior. Is > anyone aware of any changes in openssh-client in jessie that would cause > certain server keys that were previously working to be invalid? > I just tried ssh'ing from my jessie server and couldn't reproduce your problem. Usually if the key has changed, you get a different warning "someone is doing something nasty", or something to that effect. The message you're getting seems to indicate it's not finding the host/fingerprint in known_hosts at all. Check the permissions on known_hosts. On my system it's 600. Also check ~/.ssh -- it should be 700. You can check the fingerprint in the known_hosts file like this: ssh-keygen -F blah -l Compare this value to the fingerprint being reported in the message you posted above. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/851492337.2640335.1411485252141.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: More FUD for everyone: Computers Are Dangerous! (Users are devs, after all.)
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 10:43:24 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > I *really* wish I'd evangelized daemontools on this list before the > majority of the systemd conversation occurred. Daemontools is much, > much more than a substitute for any init. You're an Evangelist? Here was me thinking you were one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the one on the red horse. daemontools seems an appropriate weapon to have in his armoury. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923151704.go4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: There is no choice
On Ma, 23 sep 14, 08:35:49, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > > A much closer example would be if you only had one tractor dealer > available, and he decided only to carry one tractor. There is only one tractor available, because the builders of other tractors retired. Some of the old tractors still seem to be working, but nobody is making spare parts for them anymore. Besides, due to climate changes the fields have become much more difficult to work and the old tractors have been showing their limitations quite a long while ago, but few actually cared enough to even consider developing new models. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
Joe writes: > I can hack the odd script and drive a compiler, so if there were to be > existing software that could do the job with a bit filed off here and > there, I'd have a go. But having done a bit more reading recently, it > seems likely that any alternative init would have to be written from > scratch, that nothing currently existing could be adapted. Is that true even if one chooses not to use Gnome or KDE? It looks to me as if Nosh and Uselessd have possibilities. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8738bicq77@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: There is no choice ...well yes there is
On Lu, 22 sep 14, 16:17:13, Ric Moore wrote: > So, I do not recommend the upgrade process from Wheezy to Jessie > as a general rule. I think it's still too early in the release cycle to make such recommendations. Based on my experience with Debian so far I trust upgrading bugs to be dealt with *before* the release. Some of them might be complex enough that they are easier solved during the freeze though. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 15:19:50 +0100 Lisi Reisz wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 14:53:15 Joe wrote: > > As Lisi and others have pointed out, the > > design of systemd and the decision of Debian to make systemd the > > 'default', or in practice the only init system, are set in stone. > > There's nothing to discuss. > > I have never said anything of the kind. Not in so many words. > I have said only that it is > up to the developers to decide what they do. They are volunteers. Which in practice comes to the same thing. And of course that is correct, I'm agreeing with you. And I said 'and others', who have been more forthright, including some outside this list. As I said to John, I've been doing some reading. > > If someone wants to maintain or develop something else, then > obviously they can. There is no stone about it. But DO something > constructive. Maintain sysvinit. That's not going to help. It is clear that sysvinit is dead, it just hasn't stopped twitching yet. But it has no future. > Write patches for the applications > that depend on systend so that they do not depend on systemd. Etc. I don't believe that can be done in practice, and if it could, it's beyond my abilities and resources. > But stop winging. Stop taking over this list with endless useless > complaints. You don't have to read them, I dare say your newsreader can display subject lines. But if you did read them, you will see people looking for answers, not just complaining. There is no point in complaining. > > And listen to what anyone else is saying. You want to be heard. > Hear others. That's the whole point. This is where the Debian users are, this is where they can be heard. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923162848.2af74...@jresid.jretrading.com
Re: There is no choice
Hi. On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:50:46PM +0200, lee wrote: > Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable. Do you > know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) systemd? And > gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like this. That's actual dependencies for the gimp in the current stable (sorry for the mangled output). $ apt-cache show gimp | grep Depends Depends: libgimp2.0 (>= 2.8.2), libgimp2.0 (<= 2.8.2-z), gimp-data (>= 2.8.2), gimp-data (<= 2.8.2-z), python-gtk2 (>= 2.8.0), libaa1 (>= 1.4p5), libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libbabl-0.1-0 (>= 0.1.10), libbz2-1.0, libc6 (>= 2.11), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.2), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2), libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.88), libexif12, libexpat1 (>= 2.0.1), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.9.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libgegl-0.2-0 (>= 0.2.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.31.8), libgs9 (>= 8.61.dfsg.1), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.24.10), libgudev-1.0-0 (>= 146), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), libjasper1, libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0-0 (>= 1.5.1), libjpeg8 (>= 8c), liblcms1 (>= 1.15-1), libmng1 (>= 1.0.10), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.29.4), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.13-4), libpoppler-glib8 (>= 0.18), librsvg2-2 (>= 2.14.4), libsm6, libsoup2.4-1 (>= 2.4.0), libtiff4 (>> 3.9.5-3~), libwebkitgtk-1.0-0 (>= 1.3.10), libwmf0.2-7 (>= 0.2.8.4), libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxfixes3, libxmu6, libxpm4, libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), python (>= 2.6.6-7~), python2.7 I fail to see parts of systemd here. Can you please help me to locate them? Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923153532.GA20670@x101h
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:20:26 -0400 Keith Lawson wrote: > Is anyone aware of any changes in openssh-client in > jessie that would cause certain server keys that were previously > working to be invalid? Hi Keith, You said "certain" server keys. If I were you, that's where I'd hang my hat. Make a list of all the keys that are malfunctioning. Make a list of all the keys that are still functional. What does each key have in common with its groupmates? What differences do you see between the two groups? It's likely that such an analysis, which should take less than an hour, will go a long way toward pointing you in the direction of the root cause. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923113402.61e15...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:27:24 -0500 John Hasler wrote: > Joe writes: > > I can hack the odd script and drive a compiler, so if there were to > > be existing software that could do the job with a bit filed off > > here and there, I'd have a go. But having done a bit more reading > > recently, it seems likely that any alternative init would have to > > be written from scratch, that nothing currently existing could be > > adapted. > > Is that true even if one chooses not to use Gnome or KDE? It looks to > me as if Nosh and Uselessd have possibilities. Wouldn't Openrc be another one? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923114025.086de...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On 2014-09-23, Steve Litt wrote: > > Blogging *is* a good idea. I'll consider that. Thanks. > Please lose those broad aquamarine borders if you blog. They're butt-ugly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm235b9.2hq.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: There is no choice
On Du, 21 sep 14, 05:14:25, lee wrote: > > Try to help by providing translations, and you'll find it's impossible > because there's nowhere and no one to offer such service. I'd like to answer to this point, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by it. Could you please clarify or maybe give some example? Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
- Original Message - > From: "Chris Bannister" > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + > > "Andrew M.A. Cater" wrote: > > > > > > It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > > > breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > > > instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. Experience > > > may also allow us to support alternatives where feasible. > > > > > Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some > > purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more out-of-date > > FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's great, or that I'm > > somehow not allowed to criticise it. > > No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who wasn't > happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed manufacturer > you go along to the tractor service department and complain incessantly. > How do you think that would go down? > I get your point, but don't the Debian developers have a better chance of getting changes implemented in upstream systemd that I do? Keep in mind, I'm not a developer, so I can't provide patches. All I can do is explain the problems some of systemd's design choices are causing me. These problems may be related to function, or the may be related to something else such as limitation of choice or freedom. In any case, I sort of look to the Debian developers as my representatives. Maybe that's not how they view themselves, I don't know. But I would hope that they care more about the needs of a Debian user than the upstream systemd guys do. It seems doubtful that the upstream systemd guys are ever going to be convinced to change their design to separate the init system from all the other features that systemd provides. But resistance from Debian the distro would go a lot farther than resistance from a bunch of users who can't contribute code anyway. So in my dream world, I would explain to the Debian devs why the systemd design (bundling too much functionality into an init system) causes problems for the user. They would understand my points and be sympathetic. They would then apply pressure to upstream to make changes, possibly to include submitting patches. Some may say that I'm asking others to do the work for me. But the work isn't all in the fixing. Identifying the problem and understanding the causes takes work, too. So does caring enough to report the problems. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21254857.2673417.1411487404860.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 10:59:32 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:08:35 +0100 > Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > > > Dear Steve, > > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 07:57:37PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Funtoo is most famous for a permanent ban on systemd. > > > > As interesting as your OS experiments are, I do wonder whether > > debian-user is the right place to be writing about them. Have you > > considered blogging? > > Blogging *is* a good idea. I'll consider that. Thanks. I knew you had a considerate streak in you and wanted to release us from the contant barrage of advocating other distributions and various bits and pieces of your favorite software. > Debian-User is very much one of the right places to put this, because a > substantial chunk of users of Debian are looking for an escape route. > > And look at it another way: If I or anybody else succeeds in mapping out > a route to a practical systemd-free environment, and the systemd > antifans go there, then Debian-user's systemd fans and agnostics can > have a quieter mailing list. Discussions of escape routes now could > lead to peace later for those not objecting to a systemd [enabled | > cursed] Debian. And then you bring disillusionment. You promise peace and harmony when a highly unlikely objective is achieved. At least we know where the list stands; we have to await and rely on someone conjuring up some mish-mash to replace a competent init system in order to return the list to its pre-advocacy condition. We are all held hostage to the ideas of a few. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923155319.gp4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 15:44:41 + (UTC) Curt wrote: > On 2014-09-23, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > Blogging *is* a good idea. I'll consider that. Thanks. > > > > Please lose those broad aquamarine borders if you blog. They're > butt-ugly. What would be a good substitute for the broad, aquamarine borders? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923115508.0f44a...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Ideal Debian distro for Asus Notebook?
On Sb, 20 sep 14, 11:53:04, Gary Dale wrote: > > This is a reasonably powerful notebook that is probably running > Windows, not MSDOS. Well, at least here there are quite a few laptops for sale with only FreeDOS ;) > Any version of Linux will probably run fairly > well on it. It doesn't use any strange hardware so things should > just work. > > I recommend Debian/Testing (Jessie) which has been quite stable in > use and is more up to date than Debian/Stable (Wheezy). You can also > try the latest Linux Mint distribution, which is Debian-based and > quite popular. Are you sure it's a good idea to recommend testing to someone new to Debian? Stable is probably a much better entry point. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Effectively criticizing decisions you disagree with in Debian
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 08:22:05AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: > >> * Get rid of run levels. > > > > And the reason for this change is? Runlevels are good where they are, > > even if you don't use them. > > Well, openbsd doesn't have runlevels, and it gets along just fine. > > openbsd does have some things that look sort-of like run levels, and > might have been more mnemonically "named", but not run-levels. OpenBSD (and all *BSDs for that matter) never used SysV init in the first place. If you need to compare Linux's sysvinit with something similar, you need to compare it with Unix System V Release 4 derivatives, not BSD ones. For example, Solaris 9 (last one that used SysV init), which had runlevels just like Linux has. > The "targets" part of systemd would actually not be such a bad idea, > as an optional package/daemon not running at pid 1, for those who need > the functionality and can get along with the paradigm and choice of > vocabulary/grammar. I would have called it something else, and I'm not > sure I'd have used the dot notation, but a different paradigm works > better for me. 'Targets' defined as arbitrary groups of daemons are OK for me too. They're just unnessesary for the most of the tasks I'd need them. > Likewise, run-levels don't really work well for me as a way to adjust > which services/daemons are running. I'll try to draw an analogy - lack of desire to understand the design of sysvinit (and Unix philosophy in general) is one of the corner design principles of all 'modern FreeDesktop standarts', not-to-be-named-pid1-process-which-name-starts-with-s in particular. "I don't need it = nobody needs it" is one of the things that look awfully bad to the third-party spectator and can lead to very curious design perversions. > >> systemd, cgroups, and dbus are a package. Not so much in the sense of > >> a debian package, rather in the sense of three components of a > >> social-engineering project. Get one in, and it needs the other, so of > >> course it has to come in, and then you have a functional group that > >> require each other and are each others' excuses. And they give the > >> impression of momentum, so busy project leaders think they can depend > >> on them. > > > > You're wrong here. Cgroups are just glorified Linux-specific shell > > limits. There's nothing in them that requires usage of s*stemd or dbus. > > I think you are saying that there is an implementation of cgroups > independent of systemd? Yup. In fact, I use such implementation on daily basis in Debian Wheezy with good old sysvinit. I really don't understand what's so special about it as cgroups are kernel facility introduced in 2.6.32 IIRC. > Well, the original cgroups, maybe not. I need to look at the original > more carefully, but I would worry about things like how well cgroups > is integrated with the pre-existing quota functionality, and whether > there would be user/admins who would shoot themselves in the foot > thereby. There're no 'original cgroups' or 'new cgroups'. There're just cgroups. They change as kernel change, that's the way all kernel interfaces evolve. > One thing I'll examine closely is whether cgroups tries to extend the > permissions model or tries to work within it. Extending the > permissions model is a no-no in my book. No, that's the thing that cgroups don't touch. Limit cpu usage for the group of processes - sure. Limit i/o for the said group - yep. Limit memory or swap - it can do it too. Restrict (not allow) an access to a certain block or char device - you bet. Tag all network packets with a certain tc tag - and that's it. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923160345.GB20670@x101h
Re: There is no choice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/23/2014 at 11:35 AM, Reco wrote: > Hi. > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:50:46PM +0200, lee wrote: > >> Gimp already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable. >> Do you know a way to install gimp without installing (parts of) >> systemd? And gimp is not the only thing with a dependency like >> this. > > That's actual dependencies for the gimp in the current stable > (sorry for the mangled output). > > $ apt-cache show gimp | grep Depends Depends: libgimp2.0 (>= > 2.8.2), libgimp2.0 (<= 2.8.2-z), gimp-data (>= 2.8.2), gimp-data > (<= 2.8.2-z), python-gtk2 (>= 2.8.0), libaa1 (>= 1.4p5), > libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.12.4), libbabl-0.1-0 (>= 0.1.10), libbz2-1.0, > libc6 (>= 2.11), libcairo2 (>= 1.10.2), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.0.2), > libdbus-glib-1-2 (>= 0.88), libexif12, libexpat1 (>= 2.0.1), > libfontconfig1 (>= 2.9.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), > libgdk-pixbuf2.0-0 (>= 2.22.0), libgegl-0.2-0 (>= 0.2.0), > libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.31.8), libgs9 (>= 8.61.dfsg.1), libgtk2.0-0 (>= > 2.24.10), libgudev-1.0-0 (>= 146), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), > libjasper1, libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0-0 (>= 1.5.1), libjpeg8 (>= > 8c), liblcms1 (>= 1.15-1), libmng1 (>= 1.0.10), libpango1.0-0 (>= > 1.29.4), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.13-4), libpoppler-glib8 (>= 0.18), > librsvg2-2 (>= 2.14.4), libsm6, libsoup2.4-1 (>= 2.4.0), libtiff4 > (>> 3.9.5-3~), libwebkitgtk-1.0-0 (>= 1.3.10), libwmf0.2-7 (>= > 0.2.8.4), libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxfixes3, > libxmu6, libxpm4, libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), python (>= > 2.6.6-7~), python2.7 > > I fail to see parts of systemd here. Can you please help me to > locate them? As best I can dredge it up quickly, the dependency chain is: gimp -> libgegl-0.2-0 -> libsdl1.2debian -> libpulse0 -> libsystemd-id128-0 As the name indicates, that library is "part of systemd", although AFAIK it is not dependent on or part of "systemd the init system". (The naming here is confusing, to the point that one could be excused for wondering whether it was intentionally so. I think it's more likely that no one considered the consequences of the naming choices as the systemd project was growing, and by now the existing names have taken on a life of their own.) As I said some time ago, some people will be fine with not running systemd as PID 1, other people wouldn't be fine with that but will be fine with not running the systemd daemons, and other people won't be fine with having any systemd code (including libraries) running on their computers. (udev is a bit of a special case, since it was originally - and probably should still be - a separate project, although the systemd people may want to aim for greater integration there as well.) - -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUIZoRAAoJEASpNY00KDJrQj4QAJKBTha1GE2+OD+wKRXI1ASA wcZ04tbFWqpGGPzG+d+1wB+bzNPXaMApWhQoIxND0i+2qDbdjpv2Lzoz95rXcqnS 0L4kt1kP5voK+dXy7B2edqVnGykuJyjY14G/uFIpjs+Q2dX7x2YuaymvcVGAsWxP wCOGiYqt41a8ZxF3mODMolzEZKwBUXJy9JWGOUUg+aKx2+beaag9QBp8entFULoC b9on8DUu7juVE0PHjTaFyk3t+zTW8/N+uV0PBrFpNz4J/F/P1Hd/niU5nYJU2kgZ lr4q5if0eEemXiTrOhUxBhzc2KGot5dfvlkkUs/IwHQuWN6AApsM+KQgjBUr7gDb xsE2ZVsHwOetO9Av8KKEfnEOR7X3Yc8J69UMdvXdYBAlZ4vlh332S3K7erf2fCCf XXL63HFKe7PYgMfT2j5gHsUnB94+dFCSMviEg0gKHzh2hprUzk337wnc3mGAAuwR 59UMJcFAEakLJABXwaye7GyWW5l/x2VkPTVPdfZRR5v65xFIWhsgIVK/hSPaqzmF o+/+b6jbDZ3CMq/GgnkTCYpQJBtpP4wfwdiJ/HW6duOHHZFCWi7I6IM6pXB171Cx 91H8hRVqL238ooYF/dWA8HptJLLLIMLV5zNnQgSrBaK0p/tauIJESaKqUXwq46Gg zOT3HxKq2iUW5W38AkVE =SWcr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54219a11.80...@fastmail.fm
Re: There is no choice
On 9/23/2014 11:19 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Ma, 23 sep 14, 08:35:49, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> >> A much closer example would be if you only had one tractor dealer >> available, and he decided only to carry one tractor. > > There is only one tractor available, because the builders of other > tractors retired. Some of the old tractors still seem to be working, but > nobody is making spare parts for them anymore. > > Besides, due to climate changes the fields have become much more > difficult to work and the old tractors have been showing their > limitations quite a long while ago, but few actually cared enough to > even consider developing new models. > > Kind regards, > Andrei > There are other tractors available. But they aren't from the same dealer. And yes, there have been tractor upgrades. One of the "upgrades" by one manufacturer/distributor brought about the tractor I described. But not all manufacturers have gone that way, even though they have upgraded their tractors. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54219cf0.8080...@attglobal.net
Re: Whats your way of sharing data between PCs?
Am Mon, 22 Sep 2014 19:01:36 -0400 schrieb PaulNM: > Questions for the OP: > Is the Desktop always on? If so, it could be the master server. No the Desktop is only used if the screens of the notebooks are to small. ;-) > Do you want to sync even if the laptops are not home, not just have > copies of the files on them? Yes and now. For the first step *No*, but I plan to sync parts of the data with my Desktop in the office too. If you use PCs to store informations, libraries, Codes and project data, it makes sense to "take this stuff with you". So I should anseer *Yes*, but may be later. > Do you want the laptops to sync with each other if the desktop isn't > around? No, that isn't important. My first idea was a VPN to my server at home. It is Debian based and 24/7 up and running. But my internet here in Germany is poor. I only have 450kB downstream and 35kB upstream. I think these is may be not much. At least not for Unison, since it tries to read to much stuff while checking / scanning for changes. How much data is transfered by BTsync if no changes are made? Have you ever had conflicts? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/lvs4uj$61m$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: [OT] SSH Server for Android
Thanks. Danilo Sampaio Analista de Sistemas Sr. Capgemini Em 23/09/2014 10:13, "Joel Rees" escreveu: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Danilo Sampaio > wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > > > Terminal IDE is not exactly what i'm looking for. I need control my > android > > phone from PC. I'm looking for a opensource project, because i'll > probably > > make customizations. > > Terminal IDE does have an ssh server. But it idoesn't get you control > over the entire device > > Well, if you want something more than what Terminal IDE or No-Root > Debian can get you, you're going to have to use the Android SDK and > build your own. > > Or root/jailbreak your device, etc., which are both rather risky. > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > >> > >> 2014/09/23 2:24 "Danilo Sampaio" : > >> > > >> > Hi guys, > >> > > >> > I know this topic is somewhat out of debian context, but someone > knows a > >> > opensource project like a SSH Server for Android, with X11 Session > Forward > >> > Support? > >> > > >> > Thanks. > >> > >> Not exactly what you're looking for, but, I'm using an app from the play > >> store called "Terminal IDE". It has ssh. No X11. 4/virtual consoles and > a > >> bit of built-in tutorial. Has a nice alternative virtual keyboard and > some > >> drivers that might make it easier to use some USB keyboards. It's > helping me > >> to figure out Google' s SDK, too, because I can use ssh over the stupid > USB > >> cable. (Sure would have preferred an ethernet connector.) > >> > >> I occasionally use the app "No Root Debian". It isn't very stable, but I > >> can compile a small personal project using it. Synaptic sort of works, > but > >> it dies after installing things. You need a USB keyboard and mouse to > use it > >> comfortably. gedit works. If I had more room on the internal flash for > >> installing things, I could probably install enough to get it to be > stable > >> enough to read and write e-mail and browse the web. > > -- > Joel Rees > > Be careful where you see conspiracy. > Look first in your own heart, > and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/caar43iptaw1snov51iyqxdsday+oeelevxysl6hzakbfyhs...@mail.gmail.com > >
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 12:04:33PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > As best I can dredge it up quickly, the dependency chain is: > > gimp -> libgegl-0.2-0 -> libsdl1.2debian -> libpulse0 -> > libsystemd-id128-0 Close, but no cigar :) On this system libsystemd-id128-0 is not installed, and aptitude tells me: $ aptitude why libsystemd-id128-0 i rdesktop Suggests pcscd p pcscdSuggests systemd p systemd Depends libsystemd-id128-0 (>= 38) Maybe it's different for testing. I'd point to libsystemd-login0, which get pulled by dbus, but the thing is that I cannot understand why blame gimp for systemd's dependencies if dbus is the real cause of 'trouble'. There was that wonderful time that DMs built several variations of popular packages (vim, emacs, exim4 come to mind) because users were not happy with all dependencies such packages actually have. Yet all we have in stable is exactly one variation of dbus built against s*stemd just because 'user may want to try s*stemd which is a technology preview'. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923162155.GC20670@x101h
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:50:04AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Chris Bannister" > > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 09:04:05PM +0100, Joe wrote: > > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:56:10 + "Andrew M.A. Cater" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > It woun't kill any detractors to try this and help us find what > > > > breaks, to help us to get a Debian system we can all be proud of > > > > instead of talking up a storm to complain about things. > > > > Experience may also allow us to support alternatives where > > > > feasible. > > > > > > > Why is it forbidden to do both? I need to use Windows for some > > > purposes, and occasionally I even correct some of the more > > > out-of-date FUD about it, but that doesn't mean I think it's > > > great, or that I'm somehow not allowed to criticise it. > > > > No, but consider how it would go down if you were a Farmer who > > wasn't happy with the crop yield but instead of going to the seed > > manufacturer you go along to the tractor service department and > > complain incessantly. How do you think that would go down? > > I get your point, but don't the Debian developers have a better chance > of getting changes implemented in upstream systemd that I do? Keep in > mind, I'm not a developer, so I can't provide patches. All I can do > is explain the problems some of systemd's design choices are causing > me. These problems may be related to function, or the may be related > to something else such as limitation of choice or freedom. Remember the DDs are users too. Have a read through the threads in the debian-devel list regarding systemd, and you will see that a lot of the concerns have been discussed to death. I think this goes back further than just a few months, and because the "discussion" wasn't getting anywhere it was put to the technical committee --- that's how I read it anywhow. It really is pointless discussing them all again here on this list. If someone has a legitimate *technical* problem then, sure, this is the right place to seek help. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923162655.GA21747@tal
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Lu, 22 sep 14, 21:17:28, Marty wrote: > > 1) The goal is "modular Debian." Multi-init is the means to achieve > it. Being tied to one init system is what caused Debian’s problems, > and the replacement did not fix it. A modular system has to support > all init systems, including systemd, clones and custom inits. While you're at it how about also making sure we can have a dietlibc or uClibc version of Debian? After all, depending on glibc is also not very good. Oh, and don't forget about udev and X.Org. There is already work in progress trying to compile Debian with something other than GCC, so you don't need to worry about that. Yes this is a joke, but only in part. It's very interesting how suddenly people are so worried about Debian being tied to one piece of software, while this has been happening all along. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On 2014-09-23, Steve Litt wrote: > > What would be a good substitute for the broad, aquamarine borders? > Well here in France we're humanitarians and have Bloggers Without Borders (BWB). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm237h1.2hq.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: Cannot boot when /sbin/init is linked to /lib/systemd/systemd, but works with ../lib/systemd/systemd
On Du, 21 sep 14, 22:45:44, Steve M. Robbins wrote: > Hi, > > Not interested in a debate over systemd. But I have a boot issue and since > there isn't a bug that matches the symptoms, I suspect my setup may be > peculiar and I'm hoping someone may have some insight. > > The package systemd-sysv installs a symlink ./sbin/init -> > /lib/systemd/systemd. The system fails to boot, complaining that > "/sbin/init" > can't be found. In bug #750360, I found a workaround that I have been using > for several months: change the link from absolute to relative > ../lib/systemd/systemd. Then the system boots fine and runs fine. Works for me: # ls -l /sbin/init lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 sep 16 01:35 /sbin/init -> /lib/systemd/systemd Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/23/2014 at 12:21 PM, Reco wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 12:04:33PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > >> As best I can dredge it up quickly, the dependency chain is: >> >> gimp -> libgegl-0.2-0 -> libsdl1.2debian -> libpulse0 -> >> libsystemd-id128-0 > > Close, but no cigar :) On this system libsystemd-id128-0 is not > installed, and aptitude tells me: > > $ aptitude why libsystemd-id128-0 i rdesktop Suggests pcscd p > pcscdSuggests systemd p systemd Depends libsystemd-id128-0 > (>= 38) > > > Maybe it's different for testing. I got that chain as follows: 1. Run the following command to get a list of systemd-related packages which are installed: dpkg -l "*systemd*" | grep ii 2. Starting out with an appropriately-selected package from that list, run the following command: apt-get --dry-run install gimp [packagename]- 3a. If step 2 produced a successful removal run, then that wasn't a package which gimp actually depends on; go back and choose a different package from step 1. 3b. If step 2 produced a "packages have unmet dependencies" failure, repeat step 2, with the package name listed as "is not going to be installed" from the failure message. Eventually, you will get back to a point where the package name involved in step 3b is on the gimp dependency list. The package I ended up with is libgegl-0.2-0. If you get a different result, I might be interested in hearing the details. (AFAIK this procedure can be used for tracking down any dependency chain, as long as it's only a single chain rather than a branching one; it's not specific to systemd.) > I'd point to libsystemd-login0, which get pulled by dbus, but the > thing is that I cannot understand why blame gimp for systemd's > dependencies if dbus is the real cause of 'trouble'. Probably because the specific dbus services which these things are depending on are provided by code that runs inside of systemd. (Or by systemd-shim, but that's a back-implementation, covering up for the problems caused by having such services provided only by systemd.) My understanding is that dbus itself is merely a communications method, and that what programs actually depend on are specific services which are available over dbus. Which results in an implicit dependency on dbus, but dbus itself isn't to blame for problems with those services. - -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUIaC9AAoJEASpNY00KDJrfpkP/A1W8nWPxIwPgLL4GSu/U07s sa/1AhtGf57a681Wrrli11ccglrXX/iyduQc/5v/SSr1t2buQRqFGbwiQ6w2dKCh JrQSNZJFCyrsZLakXupGpgs5peKSKBUpLZCNe/7amdknvuve/3Ezd1wL2CuuCTDH fXsrbpD35L9izVpAN5Qy3CNl34zURUuusgX/5W7HkfdWgGtBxcau94OQviYKZM8Z mxC8odvprxRzeONgLm1t1fWMquXQOOb1g3VHduTLdF/7l39RPg5k21dVBFNYcrQc WRmar72seDM71Ms42nkQTtpFsrsPmGuuw7w1+Mpfc6IamBC8mjUqti+18PLY6qVo tS4LScQTey7V4CdkF2+2HFyuUfahSdKpNA7lMDu5XMWQHRFfFAewZYY2BJwyZ9wE mGl+qubCXxymXY/dWHxYbY0Aed9R7R4ChlzXsydllmEJnqco2UnXRJ31wz0qjjC7 D2upeJ41qAnJDBGbb2vv9ItIj3uvJxtOyBB3NR3TnstgYEVk3+Zi/cnC0Nf2U166 ATOmjDD7aH/9O7Fn3JDhFHyNUOEUc1Vz0Glz6YN4AUouAwfxABaSRcWn+S7W4zjF WEvK+PUbvs9q8ewy5skyEMzg6wFUcm9X+ANUctkWJLBdg7qZJUAHRifLKTWY3xiP dC6rOEcQvHWjfCZD1zkY =T0zX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421a0bd.9020...@fastmail.fm
Re: There is no choice
Why in heaven's name does Gimp require audio? -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4tab8e5@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: There is no choice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 09/23/2014 at 12:37 PM, John Hasler wrote: > Why in heaven's name does Gimp require audio? AFAIK, it doesn't. It does require graphics handling, though. One of the libraries it uses for that relies on an SDL library. That SDL library in turn relies on an audio library, since SDL isn't just graphics. All very reasonable, at each step. I'm not sure I see much problem with it in practice, either... - -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJUIaMAAAoJEASpNY00KDJrEmQP/2B4piG5qP8jW5XmeVVQfcye gJ3L4oPpctjleZYnKuJNvJqTl6f9SPjhjfNc9zfN4NpLtR6OmbR07Uk/nHSCZisi TODVvfwKV60uZRwlDIclsEx3AIx4AvRixdx2MaXctsyMM8WUZtSfXIJoJffKyJyI KkkMLoCZ/0gEDO8gpw62QQVCPIhV09QBKJlekq7Jwyb3iy2XEj7spgHVQsZVtMqi FG0wkUl9ubgkJVL2OjHO0eKYFZEjFQpa9yo/5qMcBgrBs2ucUn13mA3KbggZDLiM GXtPKlntqpXe2MY/JtPpOjcxEzMThhXcNIWkJyimzsOKIOFnjSKJtuF6njVy lEfaZVZM8K+Iwov3Y0zOB62ewFSn6rHJzfGquChPAOStrEfJEgnxR4nOHjqzcIbN qt5vSxHvjxvSDRiSMgo/aBFUlTVNniqrm0ktlWI7SkBQ7Wpcm22FRRQ6xeQJgVVx BLbRygBSuIFydReBedszPWTFgEXsJD+Nfn2na6Ai12b+zjbUAIOhLK4Vt1DSMPx0 Jetg5DU/o9PnbY514Dm+0rgaxU2bm98AxpsHYhskIhE7voxeaHMPi5S0JwWxZPHg N/VbF6BhYU0lwxmgJwleR+YhBxK2JGXDLiw+fPAR37Wo94OGp9xpb3Et8mBzc5Lm sX1DwnbylA8YTGoHF4Wo =oqlb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421a300.3080...@fastmail.fm
Re: There is no choice
On Ma, 23 sep 14, 11:37:22, John Hasler wrote: > Why in heaven's name does Gimp require audio? It doesn't. Gimp depends on libgegl (Generic Graphics Library) which depends on libsdl (Simple DirectMedia Layer) which also supports audio and is thus compiled with support for pulseaudio (depends on libpulse, but not on pulseaudio). Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: There is no choice
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 12:33:01PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 09/23/2014 at 12:21 PM, Reco wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 12:04:33PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> >
> >> As best I can dredge it up quickly, the dependency chain is:
> >>
> >> gimp -> libgegl-0.2-0 -> libsdl1.2debian -> libpulse0 ->
> >> libsystemd-id128-0
> >
> > Close, but no cigar :) On this system libsystemd-id128-0 is not
> > installed, and aptitude tells me:
> >
> > $ aptitude why libsystemd-id128-0 i rdesktop Suggests pcscd p
> > pcscdSuggests systemd p systemd Depends libsystemd-id128-0
> > (>= 38)
> >
> >
> > Maybe it's different for testing.
>
> I got that chain as follows:
>
> 1. Run the following command to get a list of systemd-related packages
> which are installed:
> dpkg -l "*systemd*" | grep ii
$ dpkg -l "*s*stemd*" | tail -n +6 | awk '/^ii/ {print $2}'
libsystemd-login0:i386
> 2. Starting out with an appropriately-selected package from that list,
> run the following command:
> apt-get --dry-run install gimp [packagename]-
Um, I use stable and have gimp installed. Original statement was 'Gimp
already depends on (parts of) systemd in current stable'.
Using the method you're proposing apt wants to remove dbus, bluetooth
and a bunch of xfce4-panel stuff. But it doesn't remove gimp.
I've attached the output just in case.
> The package I ended up with is libgegl-0.2-0. If you get a different
> result, I might be interested in hearing the details.
Definitely my results are different. In stable libggegl-0.2-0 does
depend on libpulse0, but libpulse0's dependencies aren't that special.
They do things differently in sid, that's true.
> > I'd point to libsystemd-login0, which get pulled by dbus, but the
> > thing is that I cannot understand why blame gimp for systemd's
> > dependencies if dbus is the real cause of 'trouble'.
>
> Probably because the specific dbus services which these things are
> depending on are provided by code that runs inside of systemd. (Or by
> systemd-shim, but that's a back-implementation, covering up for the
> problems caused by having such services provided only by systemd.)
>
> My understanding is that dbus itself is merely a communications method,
> and that what programs actually depend on are specific services which
> are available over dbus. Which results in an implicit dependency on
> dbus, but dbus itself isn't to blame for problems with those services.
There you've lost me. It's gimp we're talking about, remember? Which
'dbus services' (whatever this thing is) does gimp need? Why depend on
'dbus' package, if all one need to do is to depend on appropriate
'libdbus*'? Why mention 'systemd-shim' if it's a testing-specific
package currently (not in stable)?
Reco
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
gimp is already the newest version.
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
imagemagick-common liblqr-1-0 libmagickcore5 libmagickwand5 libpython2.7
libxklavier16 obex-data-server python-gobject python-notify xinit
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
blueman bluez dbus dbus-x11 libsystemd-login0 libxfce4ui-1-0 libxfconf-0-2
xfce4-battery-plugin xfce4-netload-plugin xfce4-notifyd xfce4-panel
xfce4-session xfce4-settings xfce4-utils xfce4-wavelan-plugin
xfce4-xkb-plugin xfconf
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 17 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Remv blueman [1.23-1]
Remv bluez [4.99-2]
Remv xfce4-xkb-plugin [0.5.4.3-1+b1]
Remv xfce4-wavelan-plugin [0.5.11-1+b1]
Remv xfce4-netload-plugin [1.1.0-1+b1]
Remv xfce4-battery-plugin [1.0.5-1+b1]
Remv xfce4-panel [4.8.6-4+demand]
Remv xfce4-session [4.8.3-3]
Remv xfce4-settings [4.8.3-2]
Remv xfce4-notifyd [0.2.2-2]
Remv xfce4-utils [4.8.3-2]
Remv libxfce4ui-1-0 [4.8.1-1]
Remv libxfconf-0-2 [4.8.1-1]
Remv xfconf [4.8.1-1]
Remv dbus-x11 [1.6.8-1+deb7u4]
Remv dbus [1.6.8-1+deb7u4]
Remv libsystemd-login0 [44-11+deb7u4]
Re: [OT] SSH Server for Android
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 02:30:02PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2014 22 Sep 14:24 -0500, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote: > > If what you some way to control your phone via your PC, SSH X11 Forwarding > > won't help. But there may be applications that allow that (at least > > partially). Probably you'll need a rooted phone. > > Depending on what is needed, to move files and such between my phone and > the computer, AirDroid has worked very well for me. > Sometime ago I found it suitable running Dropbear SSH Server: https://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html But my phone is rather low end so I dropt it in order to free up RAM and internal storage. Now just use adb for the same purposes. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 07:11:03PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Lu, 22 sep 14, 21:17:28, Marty wrote: > > > > 1) The goal is "modular Debian." Multi-init is the means to achieve > > it. Being tied to one init system is what caused Debian’s problems, > > and the replacement did not fix it. A modular system has to support > > all init systems, including systemd, clones and custom inits. > > While you're at it how about also making sure we can have a dietlibc or > uClibc version of Debian? After all, depending on glibc is also not very > good. Oh, and don't forget about udev and X.Org. There is already work > in progress trying to compile Debian with something other than GCC, so > you don't need to worry about that. > > Yes this is a joke, but only in part. It's very interesting how suddenly > people are so worried about Debian being tied to one piece of software, > while this has been happening all along. I just had a look and didn't realise how closely Debian is reliant on the C language! Surely, this can't be good! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923165444.GC22423@tal
Re: pc version of yahoo.com
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:09:39 -0700 Mike McClain wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 11:41:18AM -0400, Scott Lair wrote: > > Anyone having trouble getting to yahoo.com pc version in wheezy? I > > keep getting the mobile version. I have tried updating iceweasel to > > the backported version, cleared the cache, but still get the mobile > > version. Even when I click on the pc version on yahoo's site it > > brings up the mobile version. Chromium works ok, but not iceweasel. > > I have been having the same problem with mu.yahoo.com and iceweasel. > A google search pointed me to https://my.yahoo.com/?m=1 which gave me > my regular mu.yahoo page back. > >From my viewpoint most of yahoo's 'improvements' aren't. > > HTH, > Mike > -- > Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, > as to be purchased at the price of chain and slavery? > - Patrick Henry > > Interesting. The ?m=1 switch works fine on my.yahoo.com, but not on www.yahoo.com. Also, noticed after switching back to the stable release of iceweasel that I had to put Firefox version 32 in the user agent to get www.yahoo.com to work again. Hard to believe yahoo only supports the latest version of firefox under linux, but that seems to be the case for me. Scott -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923125256.076f2...@debian-scottmyth.lairhome.com
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 19:11:03 +0300 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Lu, 22 sep 14, 21:17:28, Marty wrote: > > > > 1) The goal is "modular Debian." Multi-init is the means to achieve > > it. Being tied to one init system is what caused Debian’s problems, > > and the replacement did not fix it. A modular system has to support > > all init systems, including systemd, clones and custom inits. > > While you're at it how about also making sure we can have a dietlibc > or uClibc version of Debian? After all, depending on glibc is also > not very good. Oh, and don't forget about udev and X.Org. There is > already work in progress trying to compile Debian with something > other than GCC, so you don't need to worry about that. > > Yes this is a joke, but only in part. It's very interesting how > suddenly people are so worried about Debian being tied to one piece > of software, while this has been happening all along. Let's discuss your analogies... === Depending on glibc === True, it's a single point of failure, but it's made by GNU, whose agenda is less harmful to Linux than the agenda of Redhat. === udev === Udev is one of the components that provide hot plugging. Take it out and root needs to manually mount stuff. OK, that's a pain in the butt, but it's limited. Most of us remember the days when you really had to do a mount, as root, to read a thumb drive. Hassle? Yes. Comparable to the invasiveness of a PID 1 whose most intimate details are necessary to run the most mundane user apps? No. === X.org === First, no CLI program gives a flying flamingo about what GUI provider is used: They don't access it. Systemd, on the other hand, has its sticky little fingers in CLI and GUI alike. Second, by definition, a GUI program must access GUI system software. There's no such definition that CLI user identification must interact with part of PID 1's package, nor that a GUI program know the intimate details of PID 1. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923125826.6633a...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: There is no choice
The Wanderer writes: > All very reasonable, at each step. I'm not sure I see much problem > with it in practice, either... I do. It's what leads to an image manipulation program depending on a particular init system. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87tx3yb5qp@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
Le 23/09/2014 18:58, Steve Litt a écrit : > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 19:11:03 +0300 > Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> On Lu, 22 sep 14, 21:17:28, Marty wrote: >>> 1) The goal is "modular Debian." Multi-init is the means to achieve >>> it. Being tied to one init system is what caused Debian’s problems, >>> and the replacement did not fix it. A modular system has to support >>> all init systems, including systemd, clones and custom inits. >> While you're at it how about also making sure we can have a dietlibc >> or uClibc version of Debian? After all, depending on glibc is also >> not very good. Oh, and don't forget about udev and X.Org. There is >> already work in progress trying to compile Debian with something >> other than GCC, so you don't need to worry about that. >> >> Yes this is a joke, but only in part. It's very interesting how >> suddenly people are so worried about Debian being tied to one piece >> of software, while this has been happening all along. > Let's discuss your analogies... > > === Depending on glibc === > True, it's a single point of failure, but it's made by GNU, whose > agenda is less harmful to Linux than the agenda of Redhat. > > === udev === > Udev is one of the components that provide hot plugging. Take it out > and root needs to manually mount stuff. OK, that's a pain in the butt, > but it's limited. Most of us remember the days when you really had to > do a mount, as root, to read a thumb drive. Hassle? Yes. Comparable to > the invasiveness of a PID 1 whose most intimate details are necessary > to run the most mundane user apps? No. > > === X.org === > First, no CLI program gives a flying flamingo about what GUI provider > is used: They don't access it. Systemd, on the other hand, has its > sticky little fingers in CLI and GUI alike. Second, by definition, a > GUI program must access GUI system software. There's no such definition > that CLI user identification must interact with part of PID 1's > package, nor that a GUI program know the intimate details of PID 1. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > Compare it to to a init system which is the main reason to choose a desktop environment... See http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/debian-switches-back-to-gnome-from-xfce.html So sytemd does in fact orient *everything*. You are not "integrated" into systemd, I am not sure debian will still be for you. That's the worse behaviuour of the worst commercial software vendor : wanting to lock usrers into what the vendor choose and denying them freedom to choose. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421ae3a.5030...@rail.eu.org
Re: Debian Wheezy XFCE Chromium PepperFlash Plugin Error
op 23-09-14 00:30, Robert Crawford schreef: > Computer is HP Pavilion a230n tower with 768mb ram 120 hd agp Nvidia > Riva TNT2 with 32mb ram card. > > Installed standard desktop (Gnome3), I was getting error message about > Gnome 3 crashing, The default Gnome3 is 3D. I think you can only run this with the closed soure nvidia driver (is in non-free) or with another video card. > plus I prefer XFCE,I replaced it with XFCE4. > > Installed Chromium-Browser. When I install ed pepperflashplugin-nonfree, > Chromium will not load. I have to uninstall pepperflashplugin for > browser to work. I have Firefox (real not Iceweasel) working with > flashplugin-nonfree. > > Is there a fix? I've not seen Chromium crashing, but flash does not work because the newest pepperflashplugin links against GLIBC_2.14. So don't use the lastest version. This is what I do: First install pepperflashplugin-nonfree when it's not installed. Then do this as root: -- cachedir="/var/cache/pepperflashplugin-nonfree" debfile="google-chrome-stable_36.0.1985.143-1_amd64.deb" cd /tmp/ wget https://vandervlis.nl/files/$debfile dpkg-deb -x $debfile unpackchrome sofile=unpackchrome/opt/google/chrome/PepperFlash/libpepflashplayer.so mv -f $sofile /usr/lib/pepperflashplugin-nonfree chown root:root /usr/lib/pepperflashplugin-nonfree/libpepflashplayer.so chmod 644 /usr/lib/pepperflashplugin-nonfree/libpepflashplayer.so mv $debfile $cachedir -- Then restart Chromium and flash should work correct. Most code comes from: /usr/sbin/update-pepperflashplugin-nonfree With regards, Paul van der Vlis. -- Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen http://www.vandervlis.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421b37f.9020...@vandervlis.nl
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:54:44 Chris Bannister wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 07:11:03PM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Lu, 22 sep 14, 21:17:28, Marty wrote: > > > 1) The goal is "modular Debian." Multi-init is the means to achieve > > > it. Being tied to one init system is what caused Debian’s problems, > > > and the replacement did not fix it. A modular system has to support > > > all init systems, including systemd, clones and custom inits. > > > > While you're at it how about also making sure we can have a dietlibc or > > uClibc version of Debian? After all, depending on glibc is also not very > > good. Oh, and don't forget about udev and X.Org. There is already work > > in progress trying to compile Debian with something other than GCC, so > > you don't need to worry about that. > > > > Yes this is a joke, but only in part. It's very interesting how suddenly > > people are so worried about Debian being tied to one piece of software, > > while this has been happening all along. > > I just had a look and didn't realise how closely Debian is reliant on the > C language! Surely, this can't be good! The entire kernel is written in C. A language is just a tool. That is like saying "The sink was installed with a wrench! Surely, this can't be good!" -- Mike McGinn KD2CNU Be happy that brainfarts don't smell. No electrons were harmed in sending this message, some were inconvenienced. ** Registered Linux User 377849 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201409231340.02412.mikemcg...@mcginnweb.net
Re: OT: Pepper Flash Crashes Everywhere
op 21-09-14 21:26, Sven Hartge schreef: > Paul van der Vlis wrote: >> op 21-09-14 13:40, Sven Hartge schreef: > >>> You cannot install it in a way t run it side by side. By installing >>> the libc6 package from Jessie it will overwrite the one from Wheezy. >>> This is how the package manager works. > >> Correct, but... > >>> This late in the release cycle, upgrading the libc6 package will pull >>> many more packages from Jessie into your Wheezy installation, >>> transforming it into a mix of Wheezy and Jessie with a greater >>> possibility of having strange bugs. > >> It's possible to install them on a place where it is not found as >> library (e.g. in a chroot, or by unpacking in /opt/ ), and then use >> LD_LIBRARY_PATH while starting the program what needs the newer glibc. > > Of course. But this is way beyond the abilities and scope of a normal > user, who will damage their system if they blindly follow an HOWTO which > just describes adding testing/jessie to their sources.list, Patrick gave links with some good solutions too. With regards, Paul van der Vlis. -- Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen http://www.vandervlis.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421b4f2.1090...@vandervlis.nl
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 12:58:26 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 19:11:03 +0300 > Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Let's discuss your analogies... > > === Depending on glibc === > True, it's a single point of failure, but it's made by GNU, whose > agenda is less harmful to Linux than the agenda of Redhat. Misinformation. systemd is not in the control of or managed or developed by Red Hat, although it will, like Debian, contribute to it. I doubt you will retract the statement, though. > === udev === > Udev is one of the components that provide hot plugging. Take it out > and root needs to manually mount stuff. OK, that's a pain in the butt, > but it's limited. Most of us remember the days when you really had to > do a mount, as root, to read a thumb drive. Hassle? Yes. Comparable to > the invasiveness of a PID 1 whose most intimate details are necessary > to run the most mundane user apps? No. Running mc depends on what PID 1 is? Are you sure we are both using Debian? You are peddling more misinformation. I use pmount myself and do not see it as a hassle. Others want what they see as a more convenient method. They need udev. They're happy and I'm happy; it's only you who seems a bit miserable. Cheer up; you have the same choice as us available. (Next time, would you please do a question and answer session which bears some releationship to reality?). > === X.org === > First, no CLI program gives a flying flamingo about what GUI provider > is used: They don't access it. Systemd, on the other hand, has its > sticky little fingers in CLI and GUI alike. Second, by definition, a > GUI program must access GUI system software. There's no such definition > that CLI user identification must interact with part of PID 1's > package, nor that a GUI program know the intimate details of PID 1. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You probably don't either. Not so much misinformation but a propagation of confusion. You did say you were involved in a plan to replace Jessie's default init system? Heaven help us. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923180707.gq4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 13:40:02 -0400, Mike McGinn wrote: > > On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:54:44 Chris Bannister wrote: > > > > I just had a look and didn't realise how closely Debian is reliant on the > > C language! Surely, this can't be good! > > The entire kernel is written in C. A language is just a tool. That is like > saying "The sink was installed with a wrench! Surely, this can't be good!" I initially saw what you wrote as "The sink was installed with a wench!" Great, someone to do the washing up was my first thought. No such luck! I'm sure Chris Bannister sees C in the same light as you do. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923181941.gr4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 19:30:34 +0200, Erwan David wrote: > Compare it to to a init system which is the main reason to choose a > desktop environment... > > See > http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/debian-switches-back-to-gnome-from-xfce.html > > > So sytemd does in fact orient *everything*. You are not "integrated" > into systemd, I am not sure debian will still be for you. > > That's the worse behaviuour of the worst commercial software vendor : > wanting to lock usrers into what the vendor choose and denying them > freedom to choose. You do not like that systemd will be the default init system for Jessie. Tough. Exercise your choice not to have it. Or is easier to moan rather than just get on with using sysvinit? As for your link, you could at least have quoted a primary source, the mail from Joey Hess making the announcement. That way people could judge for themselves rather than relying on your inconsequential remarks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/23092014193629.17b707508...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Where to put daemontools startup in systemd Jessie?
Jonathan Dowland: > You need to write a .service file for your svscanboot script, and > put it in /etc/systemd/user. I did systemd units for this ages ago. It's better to do this as two units: a "path" unit that watches the service directory and a "service" unit that is started when the service directory is found to be non-empty. And one doesn't need svscanboot at all, since systemd's journal logs the output of svscan and does it better than readproctitle does. There are minor variants on these in the nosh-systemd-services package, which runs the nosh daemontools-compatibility scanner under systemd in a similar (but not quite the same, since nosh has a separate socket-activated service manager and a choice of service scanners) manner. For more documentation, install the nosh-guide package and read /usr/local/share/doc/nosh/svscan-startup.html . jdebp /etc/systemd/system %cat svscan.path [Unit] Description=Daemontools service monitor [Path] DirectoryNotEmpty=/service/ Unit=svscan.service [Install] WantedBy=multi-user.target jdebp /etc/systemd/system %cat svscan.service [Unit] Description=Daemontools service scanner [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/svscan /service/ Restart=always [Install] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CACF=BdtUsyNskhgUeacWtAb6r+B6E7=ttwvrzbwwrurz5a7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Cannot boot when /sbin/init is linked to /lib/systemd/systemd, but works with ../lib/systemd/systemd
On 2014-09-22 05:45 +0200, Steve M. Robbins wrote: > The package systemd-sysv installs a symlink ./sbin/init -> > /lib/systemd/systemd. The system fails to boot, complaining that > "/sbin/init" > can't be found. In bug #750360, I found a workaround that I have been using > for several months: change the link from absolute to relative > ../lib/systemd/systemd. Then the system boots fine and runs fine. > > Now #750360 describes a situation with nfs mounts but I don't use any nfs > mounts. I don't do anything exotic at all! I have just two partitions: / > and > /backup. Both are straightforward ext4 filesystems, so no nfs, no encrypted > fs, nothing. This leads me to believe that my problem is distinct from that > issue. Indeed, I tried yesterday with the latest initramfs-tools where > #750360 is fixed and I still have the same problem. > > Is anyone else in the same boat (absolute symlink fails even though / is not > nfs)? Using an absolute symlink for /sbin/init should have been working since initramfs-tools 0.98, released four years ago (see #590744). Apparently it's actually working for almost everyone who has installed systemd-sysv, it certainly works for me. > My system has initramfs-tools installed and I can't seem to remove them, so I > guess everyone else uses initramfs? It's also possible to use dracut instead, and people building their own kernel with all necessary drivers to mount the root filesystem built in don't need an initramfs at all, but according to popcon ~99% of all Debian systems do have initramfs-tools installed. > Why would I be the only one having this problem? One possible explanation is that you or some package has diverted one or several files from initramfs-tools. For instance, if you were to have a very old version of /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init, #590744 might hit you. Or some script under /etc/initramfs-tools interferes in a way nobody has foreseen. Good luck, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87lhpa6to1@turtle.gmx.de
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
Le 23/09/2014 20:46, Brian a écrit : > On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 19:30:34 +0200, Erwan David wrote: > >> Compare it to to a init system which is the main reason to choose a >> desktop environment... >> >> See >> http://www.webupd8.org/2014/09/debian-switches-back-to-gnome-from-xfce.html >> >> >> So sytemd does in fact orient *everything*. You are not "integrated" >> into systemd, I am not sure debian will still be for you. >> >> That's the worse behaviuour of the worst commercial software vendor : >> wanting to lock usrers into what the vendor choose and denying them >> freedom to choose. > You do not like that systemd will be the default init system for Jessie. > Tough. Exercise your choice not to have it. Or is easier to moan rather > than just get on with using sysvinit? > > As for your link, you could at least have quoted a primary source, the > mail from Joey Hess making the announcement. That way people could judge > for themselves rather than relying on your inconsequential remarks. > > That's just not the behaviour of _something meant to be a "default" with options. First, we see that other packages become dependant on it, making the "option" thing somewhat irrelevant. Next, other choices are done because of "integration" with systemd. Why ? why integration with a mere default choice among other choices woud be relevant ? Except if the agenda is *not* what was sold and agreed upon which was a mere *default*. Sorry, but this kind of things just make suspicious. What will next step be ? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5421c56a.6090...@rail.eu.org
Re: Preliminary Funtoo report
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 16:21:53 +, Curt wrote: > On 2014-09-23, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > What would be a good substitute for the broad, aquamarine borders? > > > > Well here in France we're humanitarians and have Bloggers Without Borders > (BWB). :) La réponse parfaite. Il n'y a pas de réponse à cette. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923194031.gs4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: systemd bug closed - next steps?
On Tue 23 Sep 2014 at 21:09:30 +0200, Erwan David wrote: > Le 23/09/2014 20:46, Brian a écrit : > > You do not like that systemd will be the default init system for Jessie. > > Tough. Exercise your choice not to have it. Or is easier to moan rather > > than just get on with using sysvinit? > > > > As for your link, you could at least have quoted a primary source, the > > mail from Joey Hess making the announcement. That way people could judge > > for themselves rather than relying on your inconsequential remarks. > > That's just not the behaviour of _something meant to be a "default" with > options. > First, we see that other packages become dependant on it, making the > "option" thing somewhat irrelevant. > > Next, other choices are done because of "integration" with systemd. > > Why ? why integration with a mere default choice among other choices > woud be relevant ? > Except if the agenda is *not* what was sold and agreed upon which was a > mere *default*. > > Sorry, but this kind of things just make suspicious. > > What will next step be ? Months ago I'd have written a mail advising you to install sysvinit-core and systemd-shim and given details. Now I am getting weary. Do and say what you want. It not will alter the fact that systemd will be the default init system on Jessie. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/23092014203143.2f7000a68...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
apt broken in latest update
The recent security fixes to apt have broken its behavior with the DVD install. It doesn't seem possible to have the DVD lines in sources.list along with the repository entries anymore, which means you are now stuck downloading anything and everything you want to install regardless of whether it is on the DVDs you bought. The reason people buy the DVDs is to AVOID downloading as much as possible. Is this change deliberate? I hope not. Please fix apt to allow the DVD entries again. In fact, it would be really helpful to be able to setup the ISO images as a local repository. But when I tried to do that it kept complaining about unsigned files -- from the original DVDs? How could those not pass the hash test? This is doubly strange now that the recent security fixes have come down and it says apt was NOT validating downloads properly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1411501170.86631.yahoomailba...@web126104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: apt broken in latest update
On 2014-09-23 21:39 +0200, Paul Zimmerman wrote: > The recent security fixes to apt have broken its behavior with the DVD > install. It doesn't seem possible to have the DVD lines in > sources.list along with the repository entries anymore, which means > you are now stuck downloading anything and everything you want to > install regardless of whether it is on the DVDs you bought. The reason > people buy the DVDs is to AVOID downloading as much as possible. Is > this change deliberate? I hope not. Please fix apt to allow the DVD > entries again. In fact, it would be really helpful to be able to setup > the ISO images as a local repository. But when I tried to do that it > kept complaining about unsigned files -- from the original DVDs? How > could those not pass the hash test? This is doubly strange now that > the recent security fixes have come down and it says > apt was NOT validating downloads properly. This problem seems to have been fixed in the latest security update for apt, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2014/msg00219.html. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/877g0u6qmm@turtle.gmx.de
Re: Jessie and Systemd integration
T.J. Duchene: > Why is it not possible to create a completely generic shell script - > basically ala SysV that can parse systemd config files for those use cases > where Systemd is undesirable? Your question takes a falsehood as its premise. It is far from impossible to parse .INI files with shell script. Ten seconds' work turns up people on Stack Overflow discussing several ways of achieving this very thing: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6318809/ I'm sure that that's not the only such question, but I stopped there. It is also possible for a daemon supervisor other than systemd to be capable of importing systemd (service and socket) unit files, which is what you're really getting at. You're asking the wrong questions. "Why is it impossible to write something that is architecturally different to systemd but that can share unit files made for it?" is not the right question. Even "Why hasn't anyone written such a thing and made a .deb or two?" is the wrong question. (-: Some suggestions for right questions for you: * "Is there a handy Debian package that contains just multilog so that I can have it alongside?" * "Does Wayne Marshall's sissylog have a Debian package?" * "What is the status of systembsd? Was it really last changed in March 1973?" * "What BSD rc.d scripts remain to be converted?" * "What about some form of tmpfiles equivalent, more robust than that BSD shell script?" http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/Softwares/nosh.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CACF=bdsrgg-bf+8hy1ivy_yz5t_pu1dclf2+gcn2tqc7g60...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014, Keith Lawson wrote: > I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade > yesterday I'm getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've > been connecting to for years: > > The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. > RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. > Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? > > The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the > server side. Do you have both the RSA and DSA keys in known_hosts? Do you all of the ip addresses and hostnames listed for those keys in known_hosts? -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com The attackers hadn't simply robbed the bank. They had carried off everything portable, including the security cameras, the carpets, the chairs, and the light and plumbing fixtures. The conspirators had deliberately punished the bank, for reasons best known to themselves, or to their unknown controllers. They had superglued doors and shattered windows, severed power and communications cables, poured stinking toxins into the wallspaces, and concreted all of the sinks and drains. In eight minutes, sixty people had ruined the building so thoroughly that it had to be condemned and later demolished. -- Bruce Sterling, _Distraction_ p4 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923202636.go17...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Keith Lawson wrote: > Hello, > > I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade yesterday I'm > getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've been connecting to > for years: > IDK this has anything to do with the problem you're seeing (unless you have something wacky with your ~/.ssh - like it symlinked to /etc/ssh or something). So, I'll just go on the assumption that this is coincidence... > The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. > RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. > Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? > > The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the server > side. Looking at the openssl, openssh-server and openssh-client change logs > I don't see anything that would explain this behavior. Is anyone aware of > any changes in openssh-client in jessie that would cause certain server keys > that were previously working to be invalid? > The host keys are in known_hosts, but are the proper keys (the one you listed above - see ssh-keygen -lf /etc/ssh/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key.puh on the server) listed there? Does your user own the file and is it mod 660 or less? Are you logging into the server you think you are (did you typo an ip in your ssh_config or is someone mitm you)? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAH_OBidP35qkYMOQ16hhgB-31HMK5a9f--NOuYxO6yEKsPj=w...@mail.gmail.com
DNS Resolution and Short Names with Dots
Hi - I've been running into somewhat inconsistent behavior with DNS short name resolution in Debian across a few systems. Here's the behavior that I've occasionally relied on over the years: % cat /etc/resolv.conf search example.com nameserver 192.0.2.10 % host foo.bar.baz.example.com. foo.bar.baz.example.com has address 192.0.2.1 foo.bar.baz.example.com has IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 % host foo.bar.baz foo.bar.baz.example.com has address 192.0.2.1 foo.bar.baz.example.com has IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 Basically, I expect the search suffix to always be appended to the label unless a trailing "." (ie, fully-qualified) is the last character. I don't know if it was a glibc upgrade or something else but on a few of my Debian systems (combination of i386 and x86_64) I now cannot resolve any short names that have a dot in them. So, the above example now returns: % cat /etc/resolv.conf search example.com nameserver 192.0.2.10 % host foo.bar.baz.example.com. foo.bar.baz.example.com has address 192.0.2.1 foo.bar.baz.example.com has IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 % host foo.bar.baz Host foo.bar.baz not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) However, something this will still succeed: % host www www.example.com has address 192.0.2.2 www.example.com has IPv6 address 2001:db8::2 Running tcpdump and filtering on port 53 confirms what I'm seeing above—the resolver just isn't appending the search prefix to names with a dot in them. I've run into this issue on Mac OS X and Windows and in each case there were [possibly hacky] tweaks to restore the legacy behavior. I don't use these short names too often so I can't pinpoint when this broke or what I upgraded to change this behavior. I don't use any DNS-related options in /etc/network/interfaces and I don't have mDNSResponder or any local caching resolver running. I realize that using short names in this fashion may be not the best thing to do anymore considering recent ICANN policies and the plethora of new TLDs. However, I'd like to still have the option to enable this behavior. Any ideas? Thanks! - Mark -- Mark Kamichoff p...@prolixium.com http://www.prolixium.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:34:02AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:20:26 -0400 > Keith Lawson wrote: > > > Is anyone aware of any changes in openssh-client in > > jessie that would cause certain server keys that were previously > > working to be invalid? > > Hi Keith, > > You said "certain" server keys. If I were you, that's where I'd hang my > hat. Make a list of all the keys that are malfunctioning. Make a list > of all the keys that are still functional. What does each key have in > common with its groupmates? What differences do you see between the two > groups? It's likely that such an analysis, which should take less than > an hour, will go a long way toward pointing you in the direction of the > root cause. > It seems to be only on servers that have been apt updated recently actually. One one of the servers I connect fine with the top level A record that points at the server: debug1: Server host key: RSA e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09 debug3: load_hostkeys: loading entries for host "nowhere.ca" from file "/home/keith/.ssh/known_hosts" debug3: load_hostkeys: found key type RSA in file /home/keith/.ssh/known_hosts:26 debug3: load_hostkeys: loaded 1 keys However using the FQDN of that server prompts me to accept the same key: debug1: Server host key: RSA e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09 debug3: load_hostkeys: loading entries for host "vegas.nowhere.ca" from file "/home/keith/.ssh/known_hosts" debug3: load_hostkeys: loaded 0 keys Maybe a change in openssh-server? > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923113402.61e15...@mydesq2.domain.cxm > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923223007.ga20...@nowhere.ca
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 01:26:36PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014, Keith Lawson wrote: > > I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade > > yesterday I'm getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've > > been connecting to for years: > > > > The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. > > RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. > > Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? > > > > The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the > > server side. > > Do you have both the RSA and DSA keys in known_hosts? > ssh-keygen -l -f .ssh/known_hosts only lists RSA and ECDSA keys. > Do you all of the ip addresses and hostnames listed for those keys in > known_hosts? > These are all servers I've been connecting to for years so I should have their IP and host keys. > -- > Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com > > The attackers hadn't simply robbed the bank. They had carried off > everything portable, including the security cameras, the carpets, the > chairs, and the light and plumbing fixtures. The conspirators had > deliberately punished the bank, for reasons best known to themselves, > or to their unknown controllers. They had superglued doors and > shattered windows, severed power and communications cables, poured > stinking toxins into the wallspaces, and concreted all of the sinks > and drains. In eight minutes, sixty people had ruined the building so > thoroughly that it had to be condemned and later demolished. > -- Bruce Sterling, _Distraction_ p4 > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923202636.go17...@rzlab.ucr.edu > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923223351.gb20...@nowhere.ca
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 04:45:50PM -0400, shawn wilson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Keith Lawson wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm running jessie on my laptop and after doing a dist-upgrade yesterday I'm > > getting SSH host key errors for a bunch of servers I've been connecting to > > for years: > > > > IDK this has anything to do with the problem you're seeing (unless you > have something wacky with your ~/.ssh - like it symlinked to /etc/ssh > or something). So, I'll just go on the assumption that this is > coincidence... > > > The authenticity of host 'blah' can't be established. > > RSA key fingerprint is e8:08:db:b0:e7:38:57:d4:82:a8:a4:1c:42:f0:25:09. > > Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? > > > > The host keys are in ~/.ssh/known_hosts and haven't changed on the server > > side. Looking at the openssl, openssh-server and openssh-client change logs > > I don't see anything that would explain this behavior. Is anyone aware of > > any changes in openssh-client in jessie that would cause certain server keys > > that were previously working to be invalid? > > > > The host keys are in known_hosts, but are the proper keys (the one you > listed above - see ssh-keygen -lf /etc/ssh/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key.puh on > the server) listed there? Does your user own the file and is it mod > 660 or less? Are you logging into the server you think you are (did > you typo an ip in your ssh_config or is someone mitm you)? > Time stamps on the keys on the server haven't changed and the key fingerprint on the server matches what's getting offered to the client. I use aliases like "alias hostname='ssh ke...@hostaname.com'" so typos are out of the question. Still stumped on what changed and when we're talking SSH keys that makes me nervous. > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/CAH_OBidP35qkYMOQ16hhgB-31HMK5a9f--NOuYxO6yEKsPj=w...@mail.gmail.com > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923224417.gc20...@nowhere.ca
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014, Keith Lawson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 01:26:36PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: > > Do you all of the ip addresses and hostnames listed for those keys in > > known_hosts? > > These are all servers I've been connecting to for years so I should > have their IP and host keys. Because the entries in known_hosts are hashed by default, it's not trivial to determine this. If you've changed DNS resolution slightly, or if they now reverse to different names, or you now can connect via IPv6, or the IP addresses have changed, you will see this warning. This is one of the reasons why I (and Debian itself) don't use hashed known hosts for machines. You can also check the output of ssh -vv to see precisely what the key is, and see where else that matches in your known hosts. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com He no longer wished to be dead. At the same time, it cannot be said that he was glad to be alive. But at least he did not resent it. He was alive, and the stubbornness of this fact had little by little begun to fascinate him -- as if he had managed to outlive himself, as if he were somehow living a posthumous life. -- Paul Auster _City of Glass_ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923225956.gr17...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 03:59:56PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014, Keith Lawson wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 01:26:36PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: > > > Do you all of the ip addresses and hostnames listed for those keys in > > > known_hosts? > > > > These are all servers I've been connecting to for years so I should > > have their IP and host keys. > > Because the entries in known_hosts are hashed by default, it's not > trivial to determine this. > That's definitely proving to be true. > If you've changed DNS resolution slightly, or if they now reverse to > different names, or you now can connect via IPv6, or the IP addresses > have changed, you will see this warning. > > This is one of the reasons why I (and Debian itself) don't use hashed > known hosts for machines. > I'll have to look into doign this too. I'm sure there's an explanation to this considering things like u...@domain.ca and u...@host.domain.ca have different results but if the keys weren't hashed in known_hosts it would make troubleshooting a lot simpler. > You can also check the output of ssh -vv to see precisely what the key > is, and see where else that matches in your known hosts. > > -- > Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com > > He no longer wished to be dead. At the same time, it cannot be said > that he was glad to be alive. But at least he did not resent it. He > was alive, and the stubbornness of this fact had little by little > begun to fascinate him -- as if he had managed to outlive himself, as > if he were somehow living a posthumous life. > -- Paul Auster _City of Glass_ > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923225956.gr17...@rzlab.ucr.edu > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923230316.ga22...@nowhere.ca
Re: Problem with SSH host keys
On Tue, 23 Sep 2014, Keith Lawson wrote: > I'll have to look into doign this too. I'm sure there's an explanation > to this considering things like u...@domain.ca and u...@host.domain.ca > have different results but if the keys weren't hashed in known_hosts > it would make troubleshooting a lot simpler. Yeah. I actually still use hashing, but I pre-populate known_hosts as much as possible. I actually use totally different known_hosts files for different domains which are checked into git, and then have entries like: Host *.donarmstrong.com UserKnownHostsFile ~/.ssh/known_hosts_don in ~/.ssh/config. monkeysphere may also be an interesting alternative to look at as well. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you really want to test his character, give him power. -- Abraham Lincoln -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140923231742.gs17...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: fvwm: was i3 sticky/floating windows (brasero requires gvfs)
Charlie writes: > On Tue, 23 Sep 2014 02:54:43 +0200 lee sent: > >> Why are things going wrong with it for you, and what >> things? > > Lee, > > If I can jump in here re: fvwm. [fvwm 2.6.5] On my desktop I have this > thing. I has two columns of squares which are labelled FileMGR - xv > -gview and all sorts of things. Does something happen when you click on these labels? > To write it out of my configure files I need to know what it's called > IconBox - Iconman or whatever. > > Can you please give me the right name for it so I can seek it out and > destroy it and get it off my desktop? It might be called something "button". I take it you already searched for "icon"? "swallow" might also be a promising search string. The output of pstree (or similar tools) might be helpful: [...] ├─login───bash───bash───xinit─┬─X │ └─fvwm─┬─FvwmCommandS │├─FvwmPager │├─bwstat [...] In this example, you can see modules (bwstat isn't a fvwm module) that have been started by fvwm. Perhaps your button-thingy shows up. If you can't find it, it might help to have a screenshot so we can see exactly what you're looking at. And what does something like 'ps xca | grep -i fvwm' tell you? If this thing is started automatically, it might be through fvwms "startup" functions: AddToFunc StartFunction #+ I Module FvwmCommandS #+ I Module FvwmAnimate #+ I Module FvwmBanner #+ I Module FvwmButtons + I Module FvwmPager #+I Module FvwmIconMan #+ I Module FvwmIconBox AddToFunc InitFunction + I exec xsetroot -solid $[csbasecolor] These two functions are described in the man page. BTW, either IconMan or IconBox are deprecated --- I don't remember which one. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8738bi55be@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
Nate Bargmann writes: > * On 2014 21 Sep 15:10 -0500, lee wrote: >> Mike McGinn writes: >> >> > As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the >> > ones doing the work get to make the decisions. >> >> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users >> are the priority. > > I fear that down that path lies madness. Which group of users takes > precedence? Is it those who configure and maintain servers, those who > want to use Debian as a desktop, those interested in using Debian as the > basis for embedded systems, some other group? Wouldn't that be all the more reason to modify the social contract? ;) > In these discussions I see these are competing interests which leads > me to think that the divisions are such that these interests may > become mutually exclusive to the point that Debian sub projects > catering to each group will emerge. Already some exist and they may > gain a larger user base. I think that Debian is still doing a really good job to accomodate a great variety of users/use cases. It does so by giving them choices. I might even go so far as to say that after about 20 years of using Debian, choices, versatility and quality are expectations I have, and that other distributions I have more or less experience with are unable to come close. Unfortunately, Debian is on the way of not keeping up with it's standards anymore. As to sub-projects for different applications: I wouldn't want to have to switch to another distribution just because I happen to have an (unforeseen) use case which isn't covered. That really isn't feasible. I also don't want to have to use a multitude of distributions to cover all kinds of use cases I might have. That isn't feasible, either. It would lead to get locked in one way or another, and that's something which is simply not affordable. If you have a very specific use case or environment which never changes, you are also locked in. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4ta3pby@yun.yagibdah.de
Re: Creating a forum for systemd debate
John Hasler writes: > lee wrote: >> Mike McGinn writes: >> As in any sane system of governance for this type of organization, the >> ones doing the work get to make the decisions. > > lee wrote: >> Then please modify Debians' social contract where it says that the users >> are the priority. > > It says users are the priority. It doesn't say they are in charge. It > means that the developers are to consider the users when making > decisions. I've been wondering what Debian proposes or has in place to figure out what the needs of the users are. And perhaps someone can explain in which way the users were considered when the decision was made that systemd shall become the default init system for Debian. Once that has been explained, the users can decide whether they have been sufficiently considered or not in this decision. What is Debian proposing or what does it have in place to become aware of such decision of the users so that Debian can act accordingly? What are the users supposed to do when they feel that they haven't sufficiently been considered? Or do you mean to say that allowing the users to decide whether they have been sufficiently considered or not would put them in charge too much? OTOH, how can the users be the priority when they aren't in charge? And being in charge means responsibility in the first place. -- Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87tx3x539f@yun.yagibdah.de
