[computer-go] Congratulations to MoGo!
Congratulations to MoGo, which as MoGoBot won the Formal division of last Saturday's KGS tournament with 8/10, and as MoGoBot13 won the Open division with 6/6. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/19/index.html I have, belatedly, tidied up the pages at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html so that they refer to the new KGS server. Prompted by posters to this list, I have removed some advice that applied only to the old server. I still intend to run a "slow" KGS tournament, with time limits of 11 hours each sudden death, one game a day over maybe five days. I had promised to do this before the end of September; but various distractions have prevented me. I would really like to do this soon though; I invite you to suggest dates that would suit you. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] When is Pass the best move?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes When someone mentioned a position where a pass-alive group should be sacrificed - I wondered if it was also due to PSK issues. I want to clarify something I said about PSK. I don't think the rule is "wrong" in any sense - after all you can make up any rules you want as long as they are internally consistent. I just believe it's a rather arbitrary rule which has been accepted primarily because it rarely turns out to make a difference in most situations. PSK has been accepted by KGS because it is what the Chinese rules (as used on KGS for computer Go events) appear to specify. But I suspect that the authors of the Chinese rules never even considered PSK and SSK as alternatives. Personally I prefer NSSK (Natural Situational Superko) to SSK, and SSK to PSK. I think that very few people who understand the difference will prefer PSK. Nick For instance, I could add a rule to chess which says "it's illegal to move a bishop to g2 on the 8th move." It would be a rather silly and arbitrary rule and wouldn't be consistent with the spirit of the game, and it would introduce a small bias against white for no good reason - but it would be a valid rule and the game could still be played reasonably. However it would be an ugly wart on the game. (Chess has a lot of funny rules in it anyway which have been added over the years to improve the game.) - Don On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 11:56 +0200, Erik van der Werf wrote: On 10/23/06, Tom Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 01:54 23/10/2006, you wrote: > > >There was a posting on this list with an example of a (contrived?) > >situation where sacrificing a pass-alive group is appropriate, in order to > >win a ko that is more valuable. Is even #1 "100% admissible"? > > > >Weston > > > I must have missed this, and find it surprising. Can anyone remember the > example? > I probably posted that; it is a superko anomaly. . O O # # # O O . O . O # . # O O # O O # . # O O # . # # # # # O O # # O O O O # # O O . . . O # # # # O O O O # # O O O # O O . O # O . O # # O . O # O O . # . 9x9 board, superko, area scoring, 6 komi for White It does not matter who plays first. Assuming that the players agree that white's upper left group is dead the position can be scored as it stands (jigo). Solution at http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/~vanderwerf/pubdown/stelling3.sgf Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ _______ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] November KGS online computer Go Tournament
The November 2006 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, November 5th, in the European evening and American midday, starting at 18:00 UTC and ending at about 22:00 UTC. The Formal division will use 13x13 boards with 18 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will use 9x9 boards with 13 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://kgs.kiseido.com/en_US/tournInfo.jsp?id=242 and at http://kgs.kiseido.com/en_US/tournInfo.jsp?id=245. Please note two important changes since the September event, brought about by a major upgrade to the KGS server: 1. The server is at a new address, goserver.gokgs.com (the old one was goserver.igoweb.org). 2. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] November KGS online computer Go Tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The November 2006 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, November 5th, in the European evening and American midday, starting at 18:00 UTC and ending at about 22:00 UTC. The Formal division will use 13x13 boards with 18 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will use 9x9 boards with 13 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://kgs.kiseido.com/en_US/tournInfo.jsp?id=242 and at http://kgs.kiseido.com/en_US/tournInfo.jsp?id=245. The above addresses won't work. The correct versions are: http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=242 http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=245 Please note two important changes since the September event, brought about by a major upgrade to the KGS server: 1. The server is at a new address, goserver.gokgs.com (the old one was goserver.igoweb.org). 2. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] November KGS online computer Go Tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The November 2006 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, November 5th, in the European evening and American midday, starting at 18:00 UTC and ending at about 22:00 UTC. Reminder - it's tomorrow. Nick The Formal division will use 13x13 boards with 18 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will use 9x9 boards with 13 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at https://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=242 and at https://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=245. Please note two important changes since the September event, brought about by a major upgrade to the KGS server: 1. The server is at a new address, goserver.gokgs.com (the old one was goserver.igoweb.org). 2. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] November KGS online results
The results of yesterday's KGS bot tournament are now reported at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/20/index.html Congratulations to MoGo! Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] How to improve my minimax speed?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Eduardo Sabbatella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes But... Which evaluation function for alfa-beta pruning? The same evaluation function that you are using already. Your original posting refers to "branching factor". If you are concerned about branching factor, you are, presumably, using a tree search, with an evaluation function. However you are doing this, so long as you are searching at least two plies deep, it will run significantly faster with alpha-beta pruning than without it. Perhaps I'm missing something, but alfa-beta pruning implies not perfect solution at all, because evaluation function is not perfect. Alpha-beta pruning will not replace your evaluation function by a perfect one :-) It will reduce the number of nodes that you need to evaluate. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Positions illustrative of computer stupidity ?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chrilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Attached is a very simple position which adresses the problem of what is inside and what is outside. A seemingly logical definition of inside is that the point is enclosed by stones of one color and/or the border. Or the fireman-algorithm. If one traverses along an own wall and/or the border in the same direction and comes back to the point. But in the given position a3 and all the other 257 intersections are according this definition also "inside". It would never come to the mind of a human player the the 3 black stones enclose the 257 intersections. Maybe not, but it is obvious to a mathematician. BTW, you mean 357, not 257. The message is: Tasks which are for a human completly trivial are hard to formalize. Chrilly Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Positions illustrative of computer stupidity ?
Here is a position from the game GoLois/Go4++ in the 2000 MSO Computer Go Tournament. Go4++ had just played the stone marked with a triangle, at a15. Its logic was "The c5 group is alive. The c5 group is connected to the a8 group (i.e., White cannot separate c5 from a8). The a8 group is connected to the b11 group. The b11 group is connected to a15. Therefore a15 is connected to the live c3 group, and cannot be killed." I leave it to you to find the flaw in this logic. ch.sgf Description: ch.sgf Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Positions illustrative of computer stupidity ?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chrilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The attached position shows the "Kirtag Problem". I have named it after the Austrian proverb "Man kann nur auf einem Kirtag tanzen" (One can dance only on one village-party***). More mathematically it is the subgame problem. White to move, what is the status of the white marked stones. Treated locally, each stone can be easily saved, but alas, one can dance only on one party. So, the status of each of those two stones is "unsettled". Not much of a problem. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] .. if Monte-Carlo programs would play infinitestrong
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, steve uurtamo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes It is said if has 4 stones handicap, every Pro will accept games play with God even if bet his life. wow. i thought that there were at least two stones worth of slack in the opening, and another two in ko fighting. :) Seems unlikely. I can't imagine two competent players, say 1p or better, coming out of the opening with one of them having a two-stone lead. And, the right to win all ko fights without having to fight them is only worth half a stone. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] December KGS online computer Go Tournament
The December 2006 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, December 3rd, in the European morning and Asian evening, starting at 09:00 UTC and ending at about 14:00 UTC. Both divisions will be five-round Swiss, and use 19x19 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=246 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=247. Please note two important changes since the September event, brought about by a major upgrade to the KGS server: 1. The server is at a new address, goserver.gokgs.com (the old one was goserver.igoweb.org). 2. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] December KGS online computer Go Tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The December 2006 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, December 3rd, in the European morning and Asian evening, starting at 09:00 UTC and ending at about 14:00 UTC. Both divisions will be five-round Swiss, and use 19x19 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=246 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=247. Reminder - it's tomorrow. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] KGS Computer Go Tournament: results
The results are at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/21/index.html. Congratulations to AyaBot, and to SimpleBot! Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] KGS Computer Go Tournaments
Jason: Thank you for pointing out these errors. I have fixed them now. Sylvain: Thank you for your explanation of MoGoBot19's play. I have added it to the page. I keep promising to hold a "slow" tournament soon, with 12 hours each for each game. I would propose next week, with games on 11th 12th 13th 14th 15th. But I understand that SlugGo is off sick at present, and as it is the program that would most enjoy such time settings, maybe I should wait until I hear that it has recovered? Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] KGS Computer Go Tournament: results
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Arend Bayer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On 12/5/06, House, Jason J. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry to be such a pest about the web site status, but the "finished" link for December is wrong (see http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/future.html). While we are at it, I suggest you remove the copy of kgsgtp.xhtml from your webpages. It's worse to have outdated documentation on your pages than no documentation, since everyone gets the updated one when downloading the kgsGtp client. Agreed. Done. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Slow KGS computer Go Tournament
The 2006 Slow KGS computer Go tournament will be next week, starting at 00:00 on Monday 18th UCT (GMT). It will be a five round Swiss, with each game taking a full day (i.e. eleven hours fifty minutes each, sudden death). Each game is scheduled to start at midnight in my UK timezone, so the five rounds will occupy Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. With apologies for the short notice - I want to get this done before the end of the year, so as to at least partly keep to promises made earlier. You can regard it as a test slow tournament. The rules are, 19x19 boards, Chinese rules, 7.5 points komi. Apart from the long time limits, it will be like the previous KGS bot tournaments that I have organised. The entrance requirements will be slightly tighter than for the Open divisions of those, at my discretion - e.g., I don't want several slightly modified versions of GNU Go playing, but I will welcome a genuine GNU Go and SlugGo. The KGS page for the event is http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=255 The entry instructions, as usual, are at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Slow KGS computer Go Tournament idea
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes ponder means to "use the opponents time to think" And being a native English speaker would not help you to know this - it is a very specialised meaning. Nick - Don On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 23:56 +0100, Ephrim Khong wrote: hi, steve uurtamo wrote: > this might be a counterproductive idea, > but does anyone who mc's also ponder? a quick question from a non-nativ english speaker: what does "ponder" mean here? thanks eph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] hello everybody
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Apperson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I just signed up for this newsgroup and have been following the posts. I am (you guessed it) building a computer go program. My question is, what tournament should I aim to be a part of? I have been cruising the net trying to figure out when the next big tournament is so that I can have my program done by then. I am writing everything from scratch using C++. What tournaments are you all planning on going to? Thanks, and I am really excited to be a member of this community. I hope you found the list at http://www.computer-go.info/events/future.html This lists all future computer Go tournaments that I am aware of. (If you found any not on this list, please tell me.) If your program supports GTP (it should) you can get it to play on CGOS, see http://cgos.boardspace.net/ There have been developments at CGOS that aren't reflected on that page - you can read about them in this mailing list. Also you can leave your program running on KGS http://www.gokgs.com/, where it can offer games to anyone who cares to play it. There is a demand for weak computer players there - this morning, while I was logged in as an admin, someone complained to me that IdiotBot was not present, and he wanted to play it. I don't understand this, IdiotBot really is remarkably weak, but it seems it is popular. Other Go servers, including IGS, LGS, and Wing, also support programs, but I know nothing about this. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Anchor Player
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I'm trying to figure this out. If you get a 9 stone handicap, you have to give back those 9 stones? So a 9 stone handicap is not quite as much as it seems although it's still pretty good. You might want a Chinese-rules handicap stone to have the same value as a Japanese-rules handicap stone. But as things stand, it doesn't - N handicap stones are worth N more points at the end of the game in a Chinese game than in a Japanese game. So you can adjust for this by deducting N from Black's score at the end of a Chinese game. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] KGS Slow tournament
I have written up the week's Slow KGS bot tournament. My report, which is fuller than usual, is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/s1/index.html I think that, despite various accidents, the event was a success. I plan to hold another one, but only after the next release of the KGS server fixes the "five minute rule" bug. Congratulations to the winner, MoGoBot19! Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] 2007 KGS bot tournament schedule
I have posted a schedule for KGS Computer Go tournaments in 2007. It should (at present) be regarded as provisional. If anyone really wants one of these dates changed, they can let me know - I may or may not be willing to change it. I plan to hold another Slow tournament, once the KGS "five-minute rule" but has been fixed. I am also considering having a Fast tournament, with maybe a minute each for 9x9, or four minutes each for 19x19. Would there be interest in such an event? What board size, and time limit, would be popular? Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 2007 KGS bot tournament schedule
Hi Sylvain, Perhaps the duration of the game could be x minutes for the game+1 second per move to take into account the communication time? I think this is a good idea. My reason for using absolute time is that I want to be sure of keeping to schedule. If a game overruns, the KGS tournament scheduler behaves well - it doesn't do the draw for the next round until all games from the current round have finished. So an overrun is not a disaster, but it may be inconvenient, particularly for myself. However this does not really matter for a fast tournament. The schedule can be allowed to slip a little without inconveniencing anyone. I shall use one second a move byo-yomi. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Chrilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes For Suzie I try for 9x9 to establish a Dan-ranking at the next European Championship in Villach/Austria. Do you mean that you are planning to enter it for a regular "human" Go event? Have you checked that the organisers will allow this? I once entered Professor Chen's HandTalk for a human Go tournament which I was organising, in Oxford. I received no complaints from its opponents, but several from stronger players, and from British Go Association officials, who asked me never to do this again. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Sho-Dan-level at 9x9
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hi Chrilly, I find it pretty amazing that even a little money will inspire people to play a computer who wouldn't otherwise. Many years ago my old chess programs were welcome at tournaments, but as soon as players started losing, the program wore out it's welcome! The change was like night and day. We came to one tournament and almost everyone signed the "refuse to play a computer list." So I offered 5 dollars for a draw and 10 dollars for a win. This tiny incentive caused almost all the players to agree to play the computer and in fact many players begged to play it. What was ironic, was that didn't pay out a single penny but everyone was happy! I don't think you understand how mean Go players are. Many of them have beards because they are too mean to pay for razors. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: Time Zones (was Re: [computer-go] KGS Slow tournament)
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes An interesting report. I have a question about a line near the end where you address the two meanings of "UCT": "UCT as applied to times stands for Universal Coordinate Time. It is the same, for most practical purposes including ours, as GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, the time zone based on London, England." I had an experience where I set a Mac OS X "Dashboard Widget" clock to London time, and it was an hour off from UCT. I could only get the correct time by using Dakar as the city. Does London use something like Daylight Savings Time, making London time the same as GMT/UCT only part of the year? In the winter, London uses UCT; in the summer, it uses BST, which is one hour ahead of UCT. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
The January 2007 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, January 7th, in the European evening and American morning, starting at 17:00 UTC and ending at about 23:00 UTC. The Formal division will be six-round Swiss, and use 9x9 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will be four-round Swiss, and use 13x13 boards with 43 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=262 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=263. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Why 7.5 points komi on a 9x9 board? Because I am using Chinese rules, and they specify komi of 7.5 points. The consensus at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes seems to be that 5.5 points komi would be fair on a 9x9 board. I see no evidence there of such a consensus. (Even if I did, I would ignore it.) Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Interesting problem
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Apperson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The japanese rules have problems and there have been cases where 2 professionals argue about the outcome of a game. They are not clearly defined for obscure cases. I am doubtful. There have certainly been cases in the past, but I think the 1989 Japanese rules are clearly defined for all cases. Can you give an example which you consider doubtful? In addition, they are not simple. Ing rules and chinese rules are both reasonable sets of rules because there is no room for argument about who wins. Chinese rules are fine (apart from their ambiguity about superko). But Ing rules are the worst rule set I have come across. Their problem is not with knowing who wins, it is with knowing whether a move is legal. For an example, see the second diagram at http://www.weddslist.com/cgi-bin/goban.pl?url=http://www.maproom.co.uk/us eful/ing-matti.html . Yang Yu-Chia (one of the three people in the world with a credible claim to understand the Ing rules) has admitted that he does not know whether Black can start the ko in the second diagram. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Interesting problem
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Robert Jasiek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Nick Wedd wrote: I think the 1989 Japanese rules are clearly defined for all cases. The Japanese 1989 Rules are undefined for each final scoring position! Details are available on my webpages and in google's archives of rec.games.go threads. Since this is not a rules mailing list, I do not explain every detail here again. It shall suffice to recall that "cannot" in "if they cannot be captured by the opponent" is undefined: It defines neither hypothetical-sequence nor hypothetical-strategy. Not even the starting player of a hypothetical-sequence is mentioned in the rules. I assume that "cannot be captured by the opponent" means that the opponent, playing first, cannot capture it. I accept that it is unclear whether this opponent is the actual one present in the game, or a hypothetical competent one. But this is a different argument. I prefer Chinese rules to Japanese. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Interesting problem
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tapani Raiko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I assume that "cannot be captured by the opponent" means that the opponent, playing first, cannot capture it. I accept that it is unclear whether this opponent is the actual one present in the game, or a hypothetical competent one. In an unresolved semeai it is not clear who is the one trying to capture and should thus get the first move. It is fairly clear to me. You ask the players for the status of each group (alive, or dead. Alive in seki is a special case of alive). Where they agree, you accept what they say. Where they differ, you have to find out "whether it can be captured", with its would-be capturer moving first. Of course, if the players do the finding out themselves, there is a danger that you end up with two adjacent dead groups. If this happens, I am not sure what to do next. One more vote for simple rules. :) Agreed. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Interesting problem
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Petri Pitkanen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes All these are rather imaginary problems really. How many times you end arguing about the outcome of a game at the club? I rarely do. But 15-kyu players do; they generally ask a stronger player for help. This year, as referee at the London Open, I was not required to deal with any status problems. But I was summoned to deal with a game-end status argument there the previous year. Japanese rules are de-facto rules in international go and hence computer programs should implement them best they can. Humans can find it difficult enough. Requiring programs to do something that humans don't know how to do is unreasonable. If I am to referee a human event, I prefer area rules, which don't lead to these problems. If I am to referee a computer event, I greatly prefer them. Nick And they problems doe exist as Robert has pointed out, but simple counting procedure out weights any problems encountered so far. And besides on normal game difference is just 1 pt. Also It is good that unsound invasions are punished. This is supposed to be game of skill. If someone make silly invasion that does not require answer, the more skilled player i.e player that correctly passes should be awarded a point for his skill. Petri -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Interesting problem
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes < snip > I have a question. With perfect play, obviously a 9 stone handicap game is dead lost. If 2 perfect players played a game where one was given the 9 stones, and they played for maximum territory (obviously it doesn't make sense to play for a win) would the handicapped player be able to hold some territory at the end of the game?Could he carve out a little piece for himself even against his perfect opponents wishes? I used to play a game with someone much (~8 stones) stronger than me, where he started by placing eight stones where he wanted them, and I then tried to live anywhere on the board. Usually I failed, but sometimes I succeeded. So I think the answer to your question must be, yes. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS online computer Go Tournament
Reminder - it's tomorrow. If you have entered but not received an acknowledgement from me, please send me you email again. If you have not entered yet, please do so soon, and send a repeat entry if you don't get an acknowledgement from me. Twice recently, an email to me has been delayed by a week. Nick In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The January 2007 KGS computer Go tournament will be next Sunday, January 7th, in the European evening and American morning, starting at 17:00 UTC and ending at about 23:00 UTC. The Formal division will be six-round Swiss, and use 9x9 boards with 28 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. The Open division will be four-round Swiss, and use 13x13 boards with 43 minutes sudden death, Chinese rules, and 7.5 points komi. There are details at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=262 and at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=263. Clean-up at the end of the game is now supported. If your bot does not support clean-up, it risks losing won games to a bot that does support it. To avoid this, you should either arrange for your bot to support clean-up, or for it to capture all dead enemy stones before it passes. Registration is now open. To enter, please read and follow the instructions at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html. The rules are given at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/rules.html. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] January KGS bot tournament results
My write-up of yesterday's KGS online computer Go tournament is now available, at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/22/index.html Congratulations to MoGoBot, undefeated winner of both divisions! Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] January KGS bot tournament results
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Let me get this straight. I think you are saying that IdiotBot actually knew the stones were dead and correctly said so. But HouseBot didn't speak up for itself nor did it bother to capture the dead stones and the only way for the server to resolve this is to assume everything is alive. I think this is correct and how it should be done if I'm understanding it correctly I don't know what IdiotBot said, because I don't have access to the logs. From what Aloril says, his IdiotBot said "those black stones are dead", but HouseBot failed to respond "ok then"; and this triggered the clean-up phase, which again HouseBot did not understand. I like the protocol, because you don't have to implement it, but if you don't you should clean up opponents dead stones before passing. I like it too. But bots which fail to support it will continue to lose games as a consequence. I shall change the page, and avoid saying that IdiotBot claimed its dead stones were alive. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] March KGS bot tournament
Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament. This will use full-sized boards for both divisions. It will start at 16:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian night, European evening, and American daytime. Time limits will be 45 minutes each, sudden death. It will end around half an hour before midnight GMT. Registration is as usual, and is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=366 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=367. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] March KGS bot tournament
Reminder - it's later today In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament. This will use full-sized boards for both divisions. It will start at 16:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian night, European evening, and American daytime. Time limits will be 45 minutes each, sudden death. It will end around half an hour before midnight GMT. Registration is as usual, and is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=366 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=367. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Congratulations to Crazy Stone ..
.. the undefeated winner of both divisions of yesterday's bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/36/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: endgame (Was [computer-go] Re: Should 9x9 komi be 8.0 ?])
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Petr Baudis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Tue, Mar 04, 2008 at 12:01:02PM -0500, steve uurtamo wrote: cool. do you have any examples from a 19x19 game? that's what i was referring to when i said that i've never seen an MC player play out a ko fight. MoGo can indeed play out some rather spectacular ko fights; unfortunately, I couldn't find any quickly, so here is at least an example of a shorter one. Unfortunately, the 5d it is playing a six-stones game against plays a non-working threat in the end and loses. The ko fight starts at move 158. and ends at move 182, when MoGo recognises that the 5-dan's ko threat doesn't work, and connects the ko instead of answering it. I found this impressive. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Computer Go event in European Go Congress, Sweden
This year the annual European Computer Go Congress is in Leksand, Sweden, for two weeks, July 26 - August 9. On the Wednesday in of the second week, August 6th, it will include a Computer Go tournament, with prizes. Anyone may enter, there is no need to be European. The cost of entering is included with the cost of entering the main Congress, for at least the second week; if done before June 15th this is 60 Euros. This payment also qualifies you to enter various other events, as shown in the schedule. The main event will be a 19x19 Swiss, or Round Robin if time allows. There may be a small-board event, depending on how much interest there is. Both will be held on KGS, so entrants should support GTP, as they do for the monthly KGS bot tournaments. We also hope to hold a computer-human challenge, between the winning program and a strong player. I hope that readers of this list will consider competing. Some reasons to compete: You will get an opportunity to meet your rival programmers face-to-face, and discuss programming techniques with them. (I greatly enjoyed listening to a conversation between Mick Reiss and David Fotland in the 1992 European Go Congress, though I could understand little of it.) Leksand is a pleasant town on a lake, a tourist destination, and travelling to the congress is a good excuse for a holiday. There aren't many "real-life" Computer Go tournaments, with prizes and official recognition. This year there will be one in Beijing, China; maybe one in Ogaki City, Japan; and this one. If you are a European programmer, this is a good chance to get your program's performance into the official records. Unfortunately, no-one has yet registered. If you are considering entering, please do so soon (either by telling me or via the Congress web site), otherwise there is a danger that the computer event will be cancelled. Main European Go Congress page: http://egc2008.eu/en/congress/index.php Schedule: http://egc2008.eu/en/congress/schedule.php Computer Go event: http://egc2008.eu/en/events/computer_go.php The town of Leksand http://egc2008.eu/en/leksand/index.php Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] More on the Computer Go event in Sweden
I have been discussing the Computer Go event with the organisers of the European Go Congress, and have some news. For those who plan to enter the Computer Go event(s) only, there will be no fee. Entry for them will be free. To enter any other event, you will have to pay the usual registration fee. The organisers are willing to fund one or more qualified people willing to give lectures on Computer Go. The funding will be the cost of two nights' accommodation in Leksand. Any such lecture should be in English, should be 40 minutes long, and should be on "Computer Go" - I assume it should be on recent advances in Computer Go, addressed to Go players with a little computer knowledge. I am hoping that someone wanting to compete in the Computer Go, but unwilling to travel to Sweden, will be able to delegate operation of his program to someone who will be there anyway - probably to a competitor in one of the other events. There is a list of registrants at http://egc2008.eu/en/registration/registered.php which you can sort by nationality etc. But this has not yet received official approval. Nick In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes This year the annual European Computer Go Congress is in Leksand, Sweden, for two weeks, July 26 - August 9. On the Wednesday in of the second week, August 6th, it will include a Computer Go tournament, with prizes. Anyone may enter, there is no need to be European. The cost of entering is included with the cost of entering the main Congress, for at least the second week; if done before June 15th this is 60 Euros. This payment also qualifies you to enter various other events, as shown in the schedule. The main event will be a 19x19 Swiss, or Round Robin if time allows. There may be a small-board event, depending on how much interest there is. Both will be held on KGS, so entrants should support GTP, as they do for the monthly KGS bot tournaments. We also hope to hold a computer-human challenge, between the winning program and a strong player. I hope that readers of this list will consider competing. Some reasons to compete: You will get an opportunity to meet your rival programmers face-to-face, and discuss programming techniques with them. (I greatly enjoyed listening to a conversation between Mick Reiss and David Fotland in the 1992 European Go Congress, though I could understand little of it.) Leksand is a pleasant town on a lake, a tourist destination, and travelling to the congress is a good excuse for a holiday. There aren't many "real-life" Computer Go tournaments, with prizes and official recognition. This year there will be one in Beijing, China; maybe one in Ogaki City, Japan; and this one. If you are a European programmer, this is a good chance to get your program's performance into the official records. Unfortunately, no-one has yet registered. If you are considering entering, please do so soon (either by telling me or via the Congress web site), otherwise there is a danger that the computer event will be cancelled. Main European Go Congress page: http://egc2008.eu/en/congress/index.php Schedule: http://egc2008.eu/en/congress/schedule.php Computer Go event: http://egc2008.eu/en/events/computer_go.php The town of Leksand http://egc2008.eu/en/leksand/index.php Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] MoGo/professional challenge
This Easter weekend, there will be a challenge between MoGo running on a very powerful system, and Catalin Taranu, 5-dan professional. The following is from the info of "The Enclave" room on KGS. It is confirmed by the page http://paris2008.jeudego.org/ <<<<<< quotation starts >>>>>> A unique challenge will be held in parallel to the Paris Go tournament : Mogo, currently one of the best Go programs in the world, will challenge the professional Go player Catalin Taranu 5P. Mogo has all the computing power of INRIA with hundreds of super-computers in a network. The winner will be chosen at the end of 9x9 games after 3 rounds of 2x30-minute sudden death. A 19x19 exhibition will be held on Sunday. Events are being followed live on KGS! They will be shown by 'iagochall'. Saturday: 3/23/08 3:00 PM Game I (9x9) Game II 9x9 Game III 9x9 Played with 1.5 hours from the start of one round to the next Sunday: 3/24/08 3:00 PM Exhibition game (19x19) Monday: 3/25/08 11:00 PM Debate with participants <<<<<< quotation ends >>>>>> The time zone quoted above is GMT; that in the http://paris2008.jeudego.org/ page is French time, GMT+1. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] MoGo/professional challenge
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Hiroshi Yamashita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes This event sounds very interesting! Saturday: 3/23/08 3:00 PM Saturday: 3/22/08 3:00 PM is right? No, it is wrong, Saturday is 22nd. That is a mistake by whoever put the message in "The Enclave" room. http://paris2008.jeudego.org/ gives the date as "Samedi 22 mars 2008" and as "Saturday, March 22, 2008" so I assume that is correct. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] 9x9
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christoph Birk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Mar 26, 2008, at 12:32 AM, Olivier Teytaud wrote: ... is room for improvement. But 19x19 is something else, perhaps we can have the Dan, but I'm not sure of that in spite of the gentle words of Catalin, and I'm sure the current mogo can't win against a professionnal player in 19x19 whenever we have the best cluster in the world, and whenever the professionnal player is both ill and a bit drunk :-) By reaching 1-dan (amateur) you would have received 1 M$ a few year ago from Mr. Ing. No, the million-dollar prize was for winning a match against inseis - young trainee professionals, about amateur 6-dan. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] MoGo/Taranu challenge in Paris
I have put a report of the weekend's challenge games between MoGo and Catalin Taranu 5p at http://www.computer-go.info/tc/ mainly to make it easier for people to find the game records. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] March KGS bot tournament: small boards, fast
Registration is now open for next Sunday's bot tournament. This will use small boards, 9x9 for the Formal division and 13x13 for the Open division. It will start at 08:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian evening, European morning, and American night. Time limits will be 8 minutes each, sudden death, for the 9x9 games, and 13 minutes each, sudden death, for the 13x13 games. It will end about 12:00 GMT. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html There is now a new requirement: you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=372 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=373. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] April KGS bot tournament: small boards, fast
The title of my original posting was wrong - it should have been April, not March. Nick In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Registration is now open for next Sunday's bot tournament. This will use small boards, 9x9 for the Formal division and 13x13 for the Open division. It will start at 08:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian evening, European morning, and American night. Time limits will be 8 minutes each, sudden death, for the 9x9 games, and 13 minutes each, sudden death, for the 13x13 games. It will end about 12:00 GMT. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html There is now a new requirement: you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=372 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=373. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] David Elsdon
David Elsdon was a British programmer and Go player who some years ago, left England for Hungary. He planned to write a Go program, his language of choice being Prolog. Sadly, he developed cancer, and about year ago he died. I reported his death on this list last May. I recently received a CD from his partner, Patricia Hughes, containing copies of the computer directories containing his notes and his work-in-progress. She has asked me to make these available to anyone who might be able to make use of anything in them. The material is at http://www.computer-go.info/de/. The executables are for Windows. However, go programming has moved on in the last few years, and I would not be surprised to learn that there is little useful material there. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] April KGS bot tournament: small boards, fast
Reminder - it's tomorrow morning. Registration is now open for next Sunday's bot tournament. This will use small boards, 9x9 for the Formal division and 13x13 for the Open division. It will start at 08:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian evening, European morning, and American night. Time limits will be 8 minutes each, sudden death, for the 9x9 games, and 13 minutes each, sudden death, for the 13x13 games. It will end about 12:00 GMT. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html There is now a new requirement: you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=372 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=373. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] BGA adopts AGA rules
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes From the American Go Association e-journal: THIS JUST IN: BRITS ADOPT U.S. RULES: The British Go Association officially adopted AGA rules of go at last weekend's British Go Congress at Hastings, reports BGA President Ron Bell, who was re- elected for another term. "AGA rules have two major benefits," Bell tells the E-Journal, "First, they neatly allow either the Japanese or Chinese styles of counting the score to be used. Second, the use of pass stones allows any disagreement between the players to be resolved by simply resuming play. Since the BGA Council adopted AGA rules last October, they've been used successfully in about half a dozen tournaments. We do have some members who wanted to keep the previous Japanese rule set - but the motion at the AGM to approve the change was passed with no opposition." I'm not saying we should adjust our programs just yet, but we may be getting closer to an international standard. Of course, it's irrelevant until Japan, China, and Korea get on board. You can find the rules in question here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wjh/go/rules/AGA.html "Adjust our programs"? I hope not. AGA rules are, essentially, Chinese (area) rules, with a bodge (pass stones) to allow the counting to be done in the Japanese way. If there is one thing computers can do right, it is to count a game once the dame have been filled and the statuses of the groups agreed. They don't need a bodge to help them with the counting. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Ok, I'm going to speak up in defence of Microsoft. (I'm not really that fond of them, and I am thinking of moving to Linux, particularly if Vista is as bad as I have heard.) I became anti-Mac when trying to buy one for my then employer. It seemed like a reasonable deal, until the salesman asked me "what industry are you from?". This totally put me off. I was trying to buy a tool to do a job. When I go to the hardware store to buy a screwdriver, they never ask me what industry I am from. I learned to appreciate MS when we kept having problems with machines crashing on the office LAN (all Windows machines). We had deduced that this somehow involved HP printers, which we had a few of on the LAN. I was following a Compuserve discussion group about HP products, where other users were describing the same problem. HP representatives were saying it was nothing to do with their product. Then an MS representative posted there, claiming that when we installed an HP printer driver, if we selected the default installation, it also overwrote part of the OS (a file called printman.exe, which I think did the scheduling) with a buggy one created by HP. My experiments on the LAN confirmed this, we had a ceremonial bonfire of HP install disks, and that was the end of the crashes. But there was no apology from HP, no admission that their buggy scheduler was the cause of the problems. It was people in MS who had traced the problem and published the answer. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] belated congratulations to Steenvreter and to Aya
My report on the April KGS bot tournament is now at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/37/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] belated congratulations to Steenvreter and to Aya
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Two minor correction: 1. It looks like you translate the login names to formal bot names and processing power. HBotSVN's real name is HouseBot. 2. HBotSVN crashed immediately on move 35 Thank you - both now corrected. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] May KGS bot tournament: full-sized boards, fast
Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament. It will use 19x19 boards for both divisions, which will be 6-round Swiss. It will start at 15:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian night, European evening, and American morning. Time limits will be 18 minutes each, sudden death, for both divisions. It will end about 19:00 GMT. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html As last month, when you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=380 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=381. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] May KGS bot tournament: full-sized boards, fast
Reminder - it starts in a few hours (13:00 GMT), five hours after the time of posting this). Nick In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament. It will use 19x19 boards for both divisions, which will be 6-round Swiss. It will start at 15:00 GMT, and take place in the Asian night, European evening, and American morning. Time limits will be 18 minutes each, sudden death, for both divisions. It will end about 19:00 GMT. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html As last month, when you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=380 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=381. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] May KGS bot tournament: full-sized boards, fast
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Sun, 2008-05-04 at 14:22 +0100, Tom wrote: >From the website http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=380 and the fact that it hasn't started, I deduce that it starts at 1500 GMT, or about 40 minutes time. I think you mean 1h40m? I also find summer-time (daylight saving) really confusing. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
the winners of last Sunday's KGS bot tournament. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/38/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Correction: HBotSVN was not reconfigured for speed in round 3. It was set to use two search threads in round 4, and was compiled in debug mode for the whole tournament. I apologize for the confusing PM's during the tournament about this. Thank you for explaining this, I have changed the report accordingly. What is "HBotSVN's technique"? Its technique is to refuse to admit that its dead groups are dead, and then to waste time in the resolution phase playing meaningless stones. This sometimes gives it a win on time, and is the only way that it wins games. This is annoying for the other competitors. I know it is not your intention that it behaves like this, but it is in your power to prevent it. It is not in my power to do anything about it, except by reassigning the results of games which it wins like this: this is the purpose of the probation. It is in Bill Shubert's power to change the way the server works so that if only one player sends a final_status_list, it will accept what that player says. I shall suggest it to him. The game end protocol says "To play in a tournament, programs must either implement both "kgs-genmove_cleanup" and "final_status_list dead", or they must play until all of their opponent's dead stones are removed from the board. It's OK if "play until dead stones removed" is an option, but they have to make sure that this option is turned on whenever they are going to be in a tournament, or they will do poorly in the tournament!". HouseBot (HBotSVN) handles this by playing until all of its opponent's dead stones are removed. "final_status_list dead" is not supported. It's kgsGtp (not HouseBot!) that insisists that all stones are alive. It annoys me every time I see the description that it's the bot that's behaving badly when it's really a problem with how the combination of kgsGtp and the KGS server represent this stuff. I have changed the wording of my report from "claimed they were alive" to "failed to admit that they were dead". I have done so because you have persuaded me that it is correct and what I said before was wrong. I do not expect you to be appeased by this. I consider it a bug in kgs that this perpetually gets misinterpreted by spectators. Please stop saying that my bot insists all of its stones are alive. This could be simplified by either fixing the game end protocol rules, or getting kgs fixed (kgsGtp and/or the server). In the round two game, it was HBotSVN that had 3 seconds left on the clock. Its opponent, MonteGNU, had almost a minute left (51 seconds). Thank you for pointing this out. I have corrected my mistake. The only games where HBotSVN's opponent got down to very little time left was the game against Leela. The whole probation thing has really pissed me off. Maybe one component of that is first finding out about it by reading it in the report. I have not been implementing "difficult things" for quite a while. Because stuff wasn't working, I suspended all forward progress on my bot two months ago. Since then, I've been building test harnesses, writing unit tests, and eliminating bugs. Did you know that weakbot50k and idiotbot don't actually handle the game end at all? Once both players pass, they switch to using gnu go. I didn't know that, but it seems a sensible, robust, solution. Nick I will no longer participate in these tournaments for the foreseeable future. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: the winners of last Sunday's KGS bot tournament. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/38/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Evan Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > Correction: HBotSVN was not reconfigured for speed in round 3. It was > set to use two search threads in round 4, and was compiled in debug > mode for the whole tournament. I apologize for the confusing PM's > during the tournament about this. > Thank you for explaining this, I have changed the report accordingly. > What is "HBotSVN's technique"? > Its technique is to refuse to admit that its dead groups are dead, and then to waste time in the resolution phase playing meaningless stones. This sometimes gives it a win on time, and is the only way that it wins games. This is annoying for the other competitors. I know it is not your intention that it behaves like this, but it is in your power to prevent it. It is not in my power to do anything about it, except by reassigning the results of games which it wins like this: this is the purpose of the probation. It is in Bill Shubert's power to change the way the server works so that if only one player sends a final_status_list, it will accept what that player says. I shall suggest it to him. > The game end protocol says "To play > in a tournament, programs must either implement both > "kgs-genmove_cleanup" and "final_status_list dead", or they must play > until all of their opponent's dead stones are removed from the board. > It's OK if "play until dead stones removed" is an option, but they have > to make sure that this option is turned on whenever they are going to > be in a tournament, or they will do poorly in the tournament!". > HouseBot (HBotSVN) handles this by playing until all of its opponent's > dead stones are removed. > "final_status_list dead" is not supported. It's kgsGtp (not > HouseBot!) that insisists that all stones are alive. It annoys me > every time I see the description that it's the bot that's behaving > badly when it's really a problem with how the combination of kgsGtp and > the KGS server represent this stuff. > I have changed the wording of my report from "claimed they were alive" to "failed to admit that they were dead". I have done so because you have persuaded me that it is correct and what I said before was wrong. I do not expect you to be appeased by this. > I consider it a bug in kgs that > this perpetually gets misinterpreted by spectators. > Please stop saying that my bot insists all of its stones are alive. > This could be simplified by either fixing the game end protocol rules, > or getting kgs fixed (kgsGtp and/or the server). > > In the round two game, it was HBotSVN that had 3 seconds left on the > clock. Its opponent, MonteGNU, had almost a minute left (51 seconds). > Thank you for pointing this out. I have corrected my mistake. > The only games where HBotSVN's opponent got down to very little time > left was the game against Leela. > The whole probation thing has really pissed me off. Maybe one > component of that is first finding out about it by reading it in the > report. I have not been implementing "difficult things" for quite a > while. Because stuff wasn't working, I suspended all forward progress > on my bot two months ago. Since then, I've been building test > harnesses, writing unit tests, and eliminating bugs. > Did you know that weakbot50k and idiotbot don't actually handle the > game end at all? Once both players pass, they switch to using gnu go. > I didn't know that, but it seems a sensible, robust, solution. Nick > I will no longer participate in these tournaments for the foreseeable > future. I fail to see the problem with HBotSVN's behavior. It is playing according to the protocol as specified. Humans judging intent and reasonableness belong in human tournaments, and possibly human-computer tournaments, but most emphatically not in computer-computer tournaments. What would you do if HBotSVN implemented final_status_list dead and always returned the empty set? What if it only returned stones that were unsalvageable even in the face of opponent passes? HBotSVN seems to be requiring its opponents to demonstrate that they are actually capable of killing the groups they claim are dead. Given the skill level of some programs, and that programs are not offendable, this behavior seems at worst mildly rude, possibly deserving of derision and disrespect, and completely undeserving of any sort of sanction. It is entirely within the power of the other bots to not lose on time. If they cannot manage their
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gian-Carlo Pascutto
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
Evan Daniel wrote:
It is entirely within the power of the other bots to not lose on time.
I am not sure that is true.
LeelaBot should be perfectly capable of playing about 12 moves per
second in the default configuration.
However, it seems either KGS or kgsGtp do not (correctly) account for
connection lag,
I believe that KGS makes no attempt to account for connection lag.
Indeed, when I last looked into the issue of connection lag (about four
years ago, before CGOS existed), _no_ Go server did anything about
connection lag, but all good chess servers allowed for connection lag by
using clients which sent time-stamped packets. When people suggested to
the administrators of IGS and of KGS that they might use timestamps to
allow for lag, they replied that it would be too difficult and would
allow cheating by people hacking their clients to send false timestamps.
However this seems not to be a problem with chess servers; and chess
players are no more honest than other people.
or the interface adds lag of its own. If it is indeed connection lag
that is the problem, KGS is about 150ms from the tournament machine,
which means Leela can't actually play more than 6 or 7 moves per second
at best, even if the engine itself would move at infinite speed. I
think that in the actual game, the speed was closer to 2 moves per
second and this was not enough to avoid the time loss.
CGOS provides some lag compensation which removes most of the symptons
but does not actually solve the problem. People with fast connections
have more thinking time. If you have a connection hiccup at a bad
moment, you can still lose on time (this happened 1 or 2 times with
Leela in a few hundred games). But in general it is less of a problem
to play out games completely, and in fact Leela does exactly that on CGOS.
I also really do not see what HBotSVN has done wrong. Surely the engine
can't be at fault because it could not identify dead groups correctly
(if that is a requirement, we will all be unable to play tournaments
until about the time the game is solved). I also don't see what could
possibly be the objection against playing until the game is finished.
These rules are sensible for computer games and work fine on CGOS.
I do not like to cripple Leela ("make its time handling more
conservative"). I would like some advice on whether other people agree
that KGS(gtp) does not completely compensate for lag. If it does
compensate completely, then the error must be at my side and I will
focus on fixing whatever it is that causes the moving speed to be below
what it should be.
It used to be the case that KGS does not compensate at all for lag. I
am not aware that this has changed.
If it is indeed a KGS flaw I may add a workaround to Leela as simple as
doing time = time / 10 as soon as winrate >95% or so. There is still a
possibility of losing on time then but it should happen less.
At the time when I was playing with my chess engine on the chess
servers, those servers provided "timeseal" and "timestamp" programs
that compensated for lag. It was no problem to play at timecontrols of
game in 1 minute with such tools, without any workarounds.
PS. I sent a correction to the hardware but I see the report still has
the old information. LeelaBot was on 1 x Intel Xeon 5355 @ 2.66Ghz, so
"only" 4 CPUs.
Thank you for pointing this out, I have corrected the page.
Nick
--
Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
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Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I agree with Evan 100%. I probably would have gone berserk if I were Jason. Instead he handled it with relative grace, considering what was in that report. Ok. I am persuaded that I have acted wrongly here. I withdraw the probation on Jason's bot, and offer my apologies to him. I shall rewrite my report (and archive the old one, for the historic record). Nick Evan Daniel wrote: On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Correction: HBotSVN was not reconfigured for speed in round 3. It was set to use two search threads in round 4, and was compiled in debug mode for the whole tournament. I apologize for the confusing PM's during the tournament about this. Thank you for explaining this, I have changed the report accordingly. What is "HBotSVN's technique"? Its technique is to refuse to admit that its dead groups are dead, and then to waste time in the resolution phase playing meaningless stones. This sometimes gives it a win on time, and is the only way that it wins games. This is annoying for the other competitors. I know it is not your intention that it behaves like this, but it is in your power to prevent it. It is not in my power to do anything about it, except by reassigning the results of games which it wins like this: this is the purpose of the probation. It is in Bill Shubert's power to change the way the server works so that if only one player sends a final_status_list, it will accept what that player says. I shall suggest it to him. The game end protocol says "To play in a tournament, programs must either implement both "kgs-genmove_cleanup" and "final_status_list dead", or they must play until all of their opponent's dead stones are removed from the board. It's OK if "play until dead stones removed" is an option, but they have to make sure that this option is turned on whenever they are going to be in a tournament, or they will do poorly in the tournament!". HouseBot (HBotSVN) handles this by playing until all of its opponent's dead stones are removed. "final_status_list dead" is not supported. It's kgsGtp (not HouseBot!) that insisists that all stones are alive. It annoys me every time I see the description that it's the bot that's behaving badly when it's really a problem with how the combination of kgsGtp and the KGS server represent this stuff. I have changed the wording of my report from "claimed they were alive" to "failed to admit that they were dead". I have done so because you have persuaded me that it is correct and what I said before was wrong. I do not expect you to be appeased by this. I consider it a bug in kgs that this perpetually gets misinterpreted by spectators. Please stop saying that my bot insists all of its stones are alive. This could be simplified by either fixing the game end protocol rules, or getting kgs fixed (kgsGtp and/or the server). In the round two game, it was HBotSVN that had 3 seconds left on the clock. Its opponent, MonteGNU, had almost a minute left (51 seconds). Thank you for pointing this out. I have corrected my mistake. The only games where HBotSVN's opponent got down to very little time left was the game against Leela. The whole probation thing has really pissed me off. Maybe one component of that is first finding out about it by reading it in the report. I have not been implementing "difficult things" for quite a while. Because stuff wasn't working, I suspended all forward progress on my bot two months ago. Since then, I've been building test harnesses, writing unit tests, and eliminating bugs. Did you know that weakbot50k and idiotbot don't actually handle the game end at all? Once both players pass, they switch to using gnu go. I didn't know that, but it seems a sensible, robust, solution. Nick I will no longer participate in these tournaments for the foreseeable future. I fail to see the problem with HBotSVN's behavior. It is playing according to the protocol as specified. Humans judging intent and reasonableness belong in human tournaments, and possibly human-computer tournaments, but most emphatically not in computer-computer tournaments. What would you do if HBotSVN implemented final_status_list dead and always returned the empty set? What if it only returned stones that were unsalvageable even in the face of opponent passes? HBotSVN seems to be requiring its opponents to demonstrate that they are actually capable of killing the groups they claim are dead. Given the skill level of some programs, and that programs are not offendable, this behavior seems at worst mildly rude, possibl
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to LeelaBot2 and to CzechBot
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes You have a typo "deasd" should be "dead". Thank you, fixed. My personal preferences would be to see the final section change its title from "Probation" to "Losses in Cleanup" or some other title addressing undesirable issue uncovered in this past tournament. I have renamed this section to "Losses after Game Stop". Is this reasonable? I'd also appreciate it if the old versions of the report can be removed completely. The last thing I want is for a potential employer to google me and find one of those pages. Ok, understood, I have removed them. I too am glad to see them removed, as they reflect badly on me. Nick They're very easy to misinterpret, especially given that my uniform-playout MC bot's performance was on par for 19x19 with relatively short time limits. Once upon a time, people thought MC bots would not scale to 19x19. Local biases in playouts, move ordering, and possibly progressive widening have changed all that. I hope to do that one day, but I don't yet. PS: You'll be happy to hear that I've been discussing alternate resignation strategies with people. The lack of resignation in this past tournament occurred because time it was a large board with short time limits (and my bot is slow). Everyone I've talked to seems to think the threshold I have for resigning are reasonable. What I have right now considers a single move in isolation, but it should be possible to consider a sequence of moves together. Essentially, it'll increase the available data to use in the resignation decision and avoid incorrect resignations at idiotic points. On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael Williams < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I agree with Evan 100%. I probably would have gone berserk if I were Jason. Instead he handled it with relative grace, considering what was in that report. Ok. I am persuaded that I have acted wrongly here. I withdraw the probation on Jason's bot, and offer my apologies to him. I shall rewrite my report (and archive the old one, for the historic record). Nick Evan Daniel wrote: On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: In message < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Correction: HBotSVN was not reconfigured for speed in round 3. It was set to use two search threads in round 4, and was compiled in debug mode for the whole tournament. I apologize for the confusing PM's during the tournament about this. Thank you for explaining this, I have changed the report accordingly. What is "HBotSVN's technique"? Its technique is to refuse to admit that its dead groups are dead, and then to waste time in the resolution phase playing meaningless stones. This sometimes gives it a win on time, and is the only way that it wins games. This is annoying for the other competitors. I know it is not your intention that it behaves like this, but it is in your power to prevent it. It is not in my power to do anything about it, except by reassigning the results of games which it wins like this: this is the purpose of the probation. It is in Bill Shubert's power to change the way the server works so that if only one player sends a final_status_list, it will accept what that player says. I shall suggest it to him. The game end protocol says "To play in a tournament, programs must either implement both "kgs-genmove_cleanup" and "final_status_list dead", or they must play until all of their opponent's dead stones are removed from the board. It's OK if "play until dead stones removed" is an option, but they have to make sure that this option is turned on whenever they are going to be in a tournament, or they will do poorly in the tournament!". HouseBot (HBotSVN) handles this by playing until all of its opponent's dead stones are removed. "final_status_list dead" is not supported. It's kgsGtp (not HouseBot!) that insisists that all stones are alive. It annoys me every time I see the description that it's the bot that's behaving badly when it's really a problem with how the combination of kgsGtp and the KGS se
Re: [computer-go] question about a situation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Norbert Gábor Papp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hi! Here is a situation, from phase1-phase5 (I hope you'll se the pictures). I just get A kép nem taláható. Picture not found. Maybe you could use ascii to show the positions, like this: O O O . # O . . # # # # O . # # O O O O O O O O # # # # . O # . . . . . O # . # . . . O # . . . . Nick [url=http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/080529/phase1_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg]phase1[/url] [url= http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/080529/phase2_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg]phase2[/url ] [url= http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/080529/phase3_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg]phase3[/url ] [url= http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/080529/phase4_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg]phase4[/url ] [url= http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/080529/phase5_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg]phase5[/url ] I've used SmartGo, which engine is based on GNUGo, and tried to make some very beginner examples. This is a #territory inside territory# type example. You'll see my problem when you look at phase1-phase4, and after you look at phase5. In phase5, all the black stones are dead. In all other cases they live, and black also has some territory. Is this normal? Why is the phase5 situation differs from phase1-phase4. What happens when two Go program plays against each other, and encounter a similar siuation? What if white that all the black stone are dead, and black thinks the opposite? I hope you'll understand me.. Thanks! Norbert ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] question about a situation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Norbert Gábor Papp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Thanks for your reply! I've tried to make the links workable... Hi! Here is a situation, from phase1-phase5 (I hope you'll se the pictures). Phase1 The game is not over. With skilful play, the white group will die, and White will be unable to live inside the black group. Phase2 Phase3 Phase4 Phase5 In each of these, the game is not over. With skilful play, both groups will live, and White will be unable to live inside the black group. I've used SmartGo, which engine is based on GNUGo, and tried to make some very beginner examples. This is a #territory inside territory# type example. You'll see my problem when you look at phase1-phase4, and after you look at phase5. In phase5, all the black stones are dead. No, they are alive. Even if White is a strong player and Black is a beginner, that black group will live. In all other cases they live, and black also has some territory. Is this normal? Why is the phase5 situation differs from phase1-phase4. Because the software you are using is getting things wrong. What happens when two Go program plays against each other, and encounter a similar siuation? They continue playing. In the last four positions, the game is far from finished. In the first position, White might recognise that it has no chance of making a live group, and resign. What if white that all the black stone are dead, and black thinks the opposite? They resume play, and try to capture the stones which they think are dead. Nick I hope you'll understand me.. Thanks! Norbert -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] June KGS bot tournament: small boards, slowish
Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. The Formal division will be a 6-round Swiss using 13x13 boards, 28 minutes each sudden death. The Open division will be a 9-round Swiss using 9x9 boards, 18 minutes each sudden death. It will start at 08:00 UTC (=GMT), and end at about 14:00 UTC. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html As last month, when you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=390 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=391. These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] June KGS bot tournament: small boards, slowish
Reminder - it's tomorrow. Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. The Formal division will be a 6-round Swiss using 13x13 boards, 28 minutes each sudden death. The Open division will be a 9-round Swiss using 9x9 boards, 18 minutes each sudden death. It will start at 08:00 UTC (=GMT), and end at about 14:00 UTC. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html As last month, when you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=390 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=391. These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!
AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games interesting. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game? You refer specifically to a choice made at move 60... I have added a diagram. But it turns out my analysis was wrong, I now think that by move 60 White had no way of winning. Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect. Rounds 1-6 were through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo. Rounds 7-9 was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/1MB cache). It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the bot. IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds were run with HouseBot 0.7 r761. Ok, I have corrected this, thank you for telling me. Nick On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games interesting. Nick -- Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Fan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes After I review the game, it is hard to say ManyFaces made a mistake at move 60 or around, since the white group at the lower left corner has a flaw. It is a sente for black to settle its F1 group. If white takes two steps to take the ko and A7 group, then black can settle down the F1 black group and kill the white E2 group by D2 then E1. Thus white cannot win the ko. During the game I thought the ManyFaces made a mistake. But it seems I was wrong. Agreed. See my reply to Jason, and the revised report. Another comment on the game ending, StoneGrid responded to the final_status_list dead correctly. But ManyFaces only responded with one new line when the list is empty. Yes. Isn't this clear from the final sentence of the "round 2" commentary? Anyway I have added a statement that it was MF's fault. Nick On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is it possible to show the board for the round 1 open division game? You refer specifically to a choice made at move 60... Also, the processor description for HBotSVN is incorrect. Rounds 1-6 were through a virtual machine on a box with a 2GHz Intel Core Duo. Rounds 7-9 was running native on a Dual Core T2330 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/1MB cache). It also turns out that rounds 7-9 were run with a newer version of the bot. IIRC, they ran with HouseBot 0.7 r763 while the earlier rounds were run with HouseBot 0.7 r761. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: AyaMC and StoneGrid were the winners of yesterday's KGS bot tournament, both undefeated, with 6/6 and 9/9 wins respectively. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html It is longer than usual, because I found quite a few of the games interesting. Nick -- Nick Wedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Hideki Kato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Thank you for a long, very interesting report, Nick. I found a typo(?), however, about the version of HBotSVN. Jason wrote earlier games were played by r761 but you wrote by r763. Yes, thank you for mentioning this, I got the version numbers the wrong way round. I have now put them right, I hope. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Congratulations to AyaMC and to StoneGrid!
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Eric Boesch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Fan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes After I review the game, it is hard to say ManyFaces made a mistake at move 60 or around, since the white group at the lower left corner has a flaw. It is a sente for black to settle its F1 group. If white takes two steps to take the ko and A7 group, then black can settle down the F1 black group and kill the white E2 group by D2 then E1. Thus white cannot win the ko. During the game I thought the ManyFaces made a mistake. But it seems I was wrong. Agreed. See my reply to Jason, and the revised report. Just an elaboration -- it looks to me like 56. g2 f4 f1 is an easy win for white (the ko no longer matters) and also white's last chance. Of course, I could have made a mistake. I think you are right. I have added "SGF" links to the report, one for each game mentioned. If you click on one of these, your browser may offer to download the game record for you, or if you have things set up right, it may load it into your favourite SGF reader application, allowing you to play through the game. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] List of contestants for US Go Congress tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Doshay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I had not previously heard about Sam Gross and Argus. Is there any info about that program? A program of that name came third out of six entrants in the European Computer Go Tournament in 1995. That is all the information I have; I will be grateful for more. Nick It is great to hear that David Fotland will be bringing Many Faces. Cheers, David On 22, Jun 2008, at 10:41 PM, Peter Drake wrote: Here's the info I have so far. Please appraise me of any errors or omissions. Program Primary Author Notes SlugGo David DoshayAs the author is involved in organizing the tournament, this program will not be eligible for prize money OregoPeter Drake Same as above FirstGo Edward de Grijs Needs operator, will borrow hardware ManyFacesDavid Fotland ArgusSam Gross HouseBot Jason House Needs operator, will borrow hardware Any others? None of the very strong UCT programs are here, so who knows who will win the $400 first prize? Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] July KGS bot tournament: full boards, slow
Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. Both divisions will be 5-round Swiss using 19x19 boards, 43 minutes each sudden death. The Formal division will start at 15:00 UTC (=GMT), and the Open division five minutes later. They will end seven and a half hours later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html I shall be away from home from later today until Thursday, so I may be unable to acknowledge your registration until I return on Thursday evening. When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=397 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=398. These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] July KGS bot tournament: full boards, slow
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I'd like to register ManyFaces1 for formal and ManyFaces2 for open. ManyFaces1 will be running on one core of a 2.4 GHz Core Duo. ManyFaces2 will be running on one core of a 2.0 GHz Core Duo. Thank you for entering. I have registered ManyFaces1 for the Formal division, and ManyFaces2 for the Open. I hope things go more smoothly this time. By the way - I would prefer it if you could send registration emails to my [EMAIL PROTECTED] address, in case I ever need to run one of these events when away from home. Regards, Nick Regards, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:computer-go- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Wedd Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:49 AM To: computer-go Subject: [computer-go] July KGS bot tournament: full boards, slow Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. Both divisions will be 5-round Swiss using 19x19 boards, 43 minutes each sudden death. The Formal division will start at 15:00 UTC (=GMT), and the Open division five minutes later. They will end seven and a half hours later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html I shall be away from home from later today until Thursday, so I may be unable to acknowledge your registration until I return on Thursday evening. When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=397 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=398. These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] July KGS bot tournament: full boards, slow
Reminder - it's tomorrow. In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nick Wedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. Both divisions will be 5-round Swiss using 19x19 boards, 43 minutes each sudden death. The Formal division will start at 15:00 UTC (=GMT), and the Open division five minutes later. They will end seven and a half hours later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html I shall be away from home from later today until Thursday, so I may be unable to acknowledge your registration until I return on Thursday evening. When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments themselves are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=397 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=398. These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Congratulations to CrazyStone and to StoneCrazy!
CrazyStone and StoneCrazy were the winners of the two divisions of yesterday's bot tournament. Both were undefeated. My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/40/index.html. It is quite short, but this in no way reflects on the participants. The standard of play was particularly high. I would, as usual, appreciate it if readers would report mistakes. David Fotland and Jason House, in particular, may have corrections to make. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] EGC (and USGC) 2008 computer go events
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Jason House wrote: I wouldn't want to overload volunteer operators. I can bow out to make room for other bots. Nah, you were here first :) But if the sponsor machines come with Java preinstalled, "operating" Leela wouldn't consist of more than copying the program off an USB stick and starting a batchfile. Now that I have got my other tasks out of the way, I am thinking more about the computer Go which I will be running in Leksand, Sweden, at the EGC on August 6th. See http://www.computer-go.info/egc2008/ I think that running a bot should be a very light task, each operator could easily manage three or four if they wanted. All an operator has to do is put the CD in the drive (or the USB stick in the port), install the program, and get it running. The author should have provided the right config file. Then if it crashes the operator may have to use his judgement about whether to reboot, reinstall, etc.; but this isn't going to happen much. I would offer to operate people's bots myself, but as Tournament Director I can't really do that. What I can do is take responsibility for trying to find an operator, if you can't find one. But don't send me the disk, send it with someone who is going to Leksand to compete (or I guess you can mail it to one of the organisers, I shall try to find who is the best person). Rémi: I have removed CrazyStone from the list of possible entrants Jason: will HouseBot want to play in the 19x19 only, or also the 9x9? Gian-Carlo: same question about Leela If a program wants to enter the event in Leksand but has never played in a KGS bot tournament, I would advise its owner to test it in a test tournament on KGS, which I shall set up for the purpose. I know that Tuuppari is in this position. So I shall be running at least one test tournament before the end of July, so that bot writers can test that their bot works under tournament conditions. These tournaments will have very fast time limits (probably five minutes each sudden death), and no-one will care what moves are made, the purpose is to check that the bot is configured correctly and follows the protocol correctly. I can run a GNU Go clone to make up the numbers for these tournaments if necessary. So if you want to test your bot under tournament conditions, please let me know of a time that will suit you. This offer is also open to entrants to the Computer Go tournament that will form part of the USGC in Portland. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] cotsen open will be on september 20-21'st
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ray Tayek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The dates for the Cotsen Go Tournament have been decided. The tournament will be held on September 20 and 21 at the Tom Bradley International Hall on the UCLA campus. This is the same location where the Toyota Denso North American Oza was held this past January. Will it include a Computer Go event this year? Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
The European Go Congress (see http://egc2008.eu/en/congress/index.php) will be held in Leksand, Sweden from July 26th to August 9th. On Wednesday August 6th it will include a Computer Go event (see http://www.computer-go.info/egc2008/). Entry to this is free. If you would like to enter but cannot be there yourself, it should be possible for you to send in your program, and I will try to find an operator for it. According to my records, entries so far are: 19x199x9 CrazyStonepossible possible FirstGo yes yes GNU Goprobable probable HouseBot no yes Leela probable yes Mango possible possible Many Faces of Go yes no Steenvreter no yes Toaster no possible TSGo probable no Tuuppari yes yes valkyria possible possible Wei2Goprobable no I expect this table needs correcting and bringing up to date. Corrections and updates may be posted to this list or sent to me privately, as you prefer. Late entries are also welcome. The programs will be run on Windows Vista PCs in Leksand, connected to KGS, where the games will be played. Of the programs listed above, TSGo (by Ivo Tonkes) and Tuuppari (by a team of Finnish programmers) have never, so far as I know, competed in a KGS tournament. I would like both those programs to play in a trial tournament on KGS, to ensure that they are correctly configured for tournament play, rather than finding out that they aren't on the day of the event. I am willing to set up such a trial tournament whenever requested - it will use very short time limits, and no-one will care who wins, the purpose will be to test their handling of the tournament settings. However I suspect that neither of these programs yet has its Windows version in a presentable state. I hope to hear soon from Ivo Tonkes and Mika Urtela about this - if I don't, I shall assume that they aren't reading this list, and email them privately. I owe two pints of beer to "the GNU Go team". I expect to deliver these to Gunnar, if he is there to operate GNU Go. Gunnar will also be speaking on computer Go, after the tournament. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Erik van der Werf wrote: I never said yes. At this point it is rather unlikely that Steenvreter will participate. Steenvreter only runs on linux. Since the machines in Leksand run windows and remote computation is not allowed (which is funny considering the tournament is on KGS) I pretty much have to be present myself. That always irks me when I hear this kind of thing. The world is basically windows "chauvinistic" and it's common to find little consideration given to any other platform. Did you know that you can create your own linux environment without having to "touch" the machine you will be using? My wife has her own windows machine that she doesn't want me "touching", but I have a complete linux install via an external hard drive that leaves her machine "untouched." Although the install is specific to that machine, it is easy to build "universal" setups that will boot on any modern PC into Linux, without touching the hard drive of that machine. This would require that you bring a memory stick of some kind or perhaps an external USB hard drive.You can get big ones really cheap now, and they are very compact. You plug it into the USB port and then boot into Linux. In my opinion, the tournament organizers should do this for you and the other potential Linux participants since Linux is becoming more and more popular and apparently it is already very popular with Go programmers. There are several possibilities for setting up machines that could use either Windows or Linux that would not require major effort on their part - just one good Linux guy helping them. I also feel for the Mac people and also people that have built programs that run on networks of workstations or other potential supercomputer programs that would not be able to participate. The rules are, you bring your own hardware or you use the hardware provided by the sponsors. The sponsors have provided Windows platforms. I guess these have USB ports. If someone wants to come along and insert a memory stick into a USB port, they can. If someone can't attend in person, but appoints an operator, then they can hope to rely on that operator to get the stick working and the machine booted into Linux. If they can't even find an operator, then they can hope that the operator I assign to them will have the competence, and the time (they may be operating several other programs) to get the stick etc. working. That's all I can offer. I have no experience of installing Linux myself. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Nick Wedd wrote: CrazyStonepossible possible This is "yes" from my point of view. It all depends on the availability of an operator. I expect (though I cannot promise) that there will be enough operators present. Operating a bot should not be difficult, if the programmer has given clear instructions. What is the komi for the 9x9 tournament ? I would prefer 7.5 because it is also the komi of the Computer Olympiad. Komi is 7.5. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Computer Go tournament at EGC, Leksand, Sweden
Things are looking good for the computer Go at the EGC on August 6th, see http://www.computer-go.info/egc2008/. For the 19x19 event we have five "definite" entries, and six maybes. For the 9x9 we have seven "definites" and five maybes. If your program is listed as a maybe Martin Müller Gunnar Farnebäck Gian-Carlo Pasciutto (19x19 only) Guillaume Chaslot Joakim Mjärdner Magnus Persson and you know whether in fact it will be competing, I would appreciate it if you would let me know. If you have in fact already told me, I apologise. If you don't know yet, it is not a real problem, late entries can be accepted up until shortly before play begins. If the KGS account which your bot will be playing under is not listed: Fuego 19x19 GNU Go Leela Mango Many Faces of Go valkyria wei2go Fuego 9x9 GNU Go HouseBot Leela Mango Many Faces of Go Steenvreter wei2go please let me know. There is no reason not to do this. The information on the web page http://www.computer-go.info/egc2008/ (which I may have difficulty in changing once I have left home for Sweden) will be read by people who follow the tournament on-line on KGS. Even if you are not yet sure whether your program will be competing, it costs nothing to create a KGS account for it. If your program is playing in both 19x19 and 9x9 events, it should have separate accounts for them. This is because we may be obliged to run the two events simultaneously. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] August KGS bot tournament
I still haven't fixed a date for the August KGS bot tournament. The problem is, on Monday August 4th I am setting off for the EGC in Sweden. Many strong European players are already there. Many strong American players are at the US Go Congress. So on Sunday August 3rd, I will be able to run it, but some of the potential entrants won't be able to take part. Sunday August 10th I have other commitments. Sunday August 17th will be ok for me. So, I have three proposals: (A.) Hold it on August 3rd. Some potential entrants will be away at their continental Go congresses and unable to take part, and I may not be able to get my write-up done until a week later. (B.) Cancel the August event. (C.) Hold it on August 17th. Unless people here persuade me otherwise, I tend to prefer (C). Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] August KGS bot tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Option C sounds best to me too. (C.) Hold it on August 17th. Unless people here persuade me otherwise, I tend to prefer (C). Nick Ok, C is carried unanimously. August 17 it will be. Another problem is the October KGS bot tournament. I would say October 5th, except that this is the last day of the "13th Computer Olympiad" in Beijing, and I don't yet know when its Go events are scheduled for; AND it may be the date of the "World Computer Go Championship" (formerly the "Gifu Challenge"), which has been in early October in the past. I wonder if anyone here has any knowledge of the schedule of the Computer Olympiad, or of the date of the Gifu challenge? Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] August KGS bot tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Nick Wedd wrote: October in the past. I wonder if anyone here has any knowledge of the schedule of the Computer Olympiad, or of the date of the Gifu challenge? Nick This is the schedule: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/event_info.php?id=22 So, October 5th won't be possible. Thank you - it won't be October 5th. It will be October 12th. I observe that http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/event_info.php?id=22 and http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/event.php?id=22 both exist and are different - this accounts for some confusion I have had in the past, when linking to ICGA pages. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What Do You Need Most?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Indeed! That's part of the motivation of organizing the tournament at the US Go Congress. and at the European Go Congress. An event in which each bot plays each other bot twice or less tells us little about their relative strengths, CGOS does a much better job of that. Rather, these "official" tournaments serve two main purposes: they draw the attention of ordinary Go players, and, we hope, of the media; and they provide opportunities for programmers to meet face-to-face, discuss ideas, and exchange gossip. Perhaps we (or the subset of us within a given country) could just pick an existing conference (something on machine learning or games) and all go there... My impression is that in Japan, there are conferences like that. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hi all, there doesn't seem to be any news from the European Go Congress. Nevertheless, I see that partial results were posted: 19 x 19 Results 1stCrazy Stone 6/6 2ndLeela 5/6 3rdMany Faces of Go4/6 9 x 9 Results 1stLeela 4/5, SoDOS=13 2ndCrazy Stone 4/5, SoDOS=12 Sorry to have been taking so long over this. I am still working on my report. Also I see: Thursday August 7th about 19:00 (17:00 GMT)Demonstration 9×9 game between winning 9x9 program (Leela) and professional. This game should be played via KGS. What happened in this game?? First, I know that the 19x19 demonstration game between CrazyStone and a professional never happened. The pro showed a lack of enthusiasm, and did not turn up in the room at the time it was meant to happen. I left Leksand before the 9x9 game between Leela and a pro was scheduled, but I have seen no report of it, and suspect that it suffered the same fate. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Basti Weidemyr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Hello all the European Go Congress was a little short of organizers, it seems, as Sweden is a small country, so some of us who had planned to work on the web site were shifted to work with registration, info-desk and other vital tasks. This has led to some delays in reporting the results. I apologize. The results from 19x19: http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp? sort=s&id=407 and from 9x9: http://www.gokgs.com/tournEntrants.jsp?sort=s&id=408 I am writing a report on these two events too, I should have done it by now. It should come up on our website too, but I guess the KGS-pages will do fine until our webmasters have grabbed a 48-hour nap. :) Xiao Ai Lin, 1p vs LeelaBot This game did happen. It was not meant as a challenge, but as a friendly game to get an idea of what can be done to develop the leading programs on 9x9. It was relayed to the cinema-screen as a warm-up before MoGo's game. I will be back with the review as an SGF-file, that is what I managed to note from her review. Meanwhile, here is the game record: pro-leela.sgf Description: pro-leela.sgf Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Xiao Ai Lin, 1p vs LeelaBot This game did happen. It was not meant as a challenge, but as a friendly game to get an idea of what can be done to develop the leading programs on 9x9. It was relayed to the cinema-screen as a warm-up before MoGo's game. I will be back with the review as an SGF-file, that is what I managed to note from her review. Thanks. I tried to analyze with Leela, but it thinks for a long time black still has chances and only starts dropping a bit after a long think. It would not have resigned in this position. Looking at the SGF I see white was about to lose on time. I have the nagging feeling Leela's operator "resigned" on behalf of the program to prevent the computer from winning on time in what was probably an objectively a lost position. When I look at the game record, I see that at the end, the pro has 7:59 left, Leela 4:25. And Black is totally lost: White will capture the d4 group which only has two liberties, connecting her three groups which already have at least four liberties each, and leaving Black's b2 and b7 groups dead. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
When I look at the game record, I see that at the end, the pro has 7:59
left, Leela 4:25. And Black is totally lost: White will capture the d4
group which only has two liberties, connecting her three groups which
already have at least four liberties each, and leaving Black's b2 and b7
groups dead.
Hi,
this is another game!
The game you posted and the one on KGS are totally different. In the one
on KGS, black played with reduced komi and (as far as I can tell) held out
a long time until white was about to forfeit on time.
In the one you posted, the opponent doesn't appear to be a pro ("sestir"
2d instead of "egc1p"), no handicap/modified komi was used, and black lost
quickly.
"sestir" is Basti Weidemyr, who was in charge of arranging the challenge
game. He has just posted to this list, so I hope he will explain what
happened.
Looking at LeelaBot's games on KGS since the tournament, I see only two:
the one I posted, against sestir, and one against egc1p with 0.5 komi,
which I cannot open, as it was not finished by the players and KGS is
treating it as escaped.
Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Re: What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
this is another game!
The game you posted and the one on KGS are totally different. In the one
on KGS, black played with reduced komi and (as far as I can tell) held out
a long time until white was about to forfeit on time.
In the one you posted, the opponent doesn't appear to be a pro ("sestir"
2d instead of "egc1p"), no handicap/modified komi was used, and black lost
quickly.
In my curiousity to see the right game (which KGS would not let me do
because it was treating it as escaped), I have done something foolish. I
am admitting this here to get the record straight.
I logged in to KGS using LeelaBot's account, and opened (and saved) the
game. The game was still running, so there can have been no
resignation. LeelaBot had over a minute left, I think less than 80
seconds but I don't remember exactly. The pro had three seconds left.
This was foolish of me because I had resumed the game, and was allowing
LeelaBot's time to pass. I have carelessly destroyed the evidence of
LeelaBot's remaining time. There is now only my word (and perhaps the
operator's) for my claim that LeelaBot had more than a minute left.
Nick
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Re: [computer-go] Re: What's happening at the European Go Congress?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 18:02 +0200, Erik van der Werf wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > She was also a bit "unlucky" in the sense that Leela did not understand it > was dead lost. > > I use quotes because had it understood better it was losing, it would have > put up more of a fight :-) If Basti is correct that Leela resigned that would suggest that 'she' actually did understand. For the final position in the game record any strong human player will tell you that the game is clearly over. No points are left to be gained and the result is obvious. If Leela had persisted in attempting to push the opponent through the clock, then I guess any EGC referee would have considered that 'unsportsmanlike' behavior (but it would of course be nice to know for sure). But is it really? Now instead of clearly defined rules, you enter the domain of judgment calls and these should be minimized. How clear does it have to be there is a win? Who decides where the gray area is? In chess it's been an important part of the game. You can get great positions if you spend a lot of time thinking and it's clear that is true in GO too.The longer I think, the better on average my position will be. But if I am less honest than my opponent about managing my time, why should I be given a free pass? I think the best thing is to use a Fischer clock with 1 or 2 seconds added per move and be religiously strict about honoring the rules. The rules I'm talking about, by the way, are the rules that you agreed to play by, before starting the game. The Fischer clock will protect you from unexpectedly long end games. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want my games judged. No sane tournament director wants to have to use his judgement (though it may be necessary). I think Fischer time would be an excellent solution. Nick I don't want anybody saying that "you lose" even though my opponent used too much time. If you want to grant wins to the time loser, then instead of requiring someone to judge the result spell out the kinds of positions where the game should be stopped. If you cannot spell it out, then you have to judge it. - Don >> As time was running out and the robot played obstinate moves, I told >> the operator to kill it. However, it looked to me like he never >> touched the keyboard, so when a dialog appeared, stating that >> LeelaBot had resigned, I asked him if he had killed the robot, and he >> replied he did not. > > The KGS server should have recorded the resignation instantly, but there > is no sign of it in the game record. Some time ago I observed that kgsgtp does not tell my program that the opponent has resigned (which is a bit annoying because it then keeps pondering when the game is already over). It's a long shot but maybe this behavior somehow also goes the other way around? Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Cultural differences: players vs "programmers"
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gian-Carlo Pascutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Don Dailey wrote: On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 17:26 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: Basti Weidemyr wrote: What would you have done in a case like this? :) You could not declare that game a win for the computer and survive. Yes, and I really hate this. You have a situation where the actual winner has to resign the game in order to not be ridiculed as being petty. And is the human player supposed to feel good about his "victory?" The statements earlier point to the indication that the human player might not even have been really aware that there was a time limit. That shouldn't have happened. But I think this entire discussion is part of a larger problem, a cultural problem: To the pro's, the games against computers are probably halfway a joke. The computers obviously so weak that having to think seriously to win a game would be an insult. You can beat them with silly handicaps even if they run on insanely big computers. Can't consider such a game serious. To the program authors, the computers are their pride and what they spend all their available time on. A good performance fills them with joy and pride and a bad performance makes them look like this: http://www.morbo.org/pics/Mainz2008/DSC_7533.jpg (picture taken by my girlfriend after I scored very badly during the first half of a computerchess tournament) To a programmer, such a game against a stronger player is _always_ DEAD SERIOUS and he or she will do anything reasonable to win. If this means flagging a professional player who didn't manage his or her time well, then be sure that is what we'll do to claim victory. And good luck explaining afterwards why the program didn't won a game that was won by the rules. To hell with what the crowd thinks, they were on the side of the human to start with anyway :) I put "programmers" in quotes because this isn't actually about programmers only. Imagine you are a weak player that gets the right to play in a simul (or in go terms, a handicap game) against Kasparov (or let's say Cho Chikun in go terms?). For Kasparov/Cho the game is a joke, an aside they do as a part of their living as professional players. To the weak player, such a game is a very rare opportunity. Imagine winning the simul/handicap game! For sure, for the professional this is the result of a slight lapse in concentration, nothing to worry about. But good luck explaining the weaker player that the game was not serious - most likely, it's the only game he'll talk about for the rest of his life! A game between players of very different strengths is never "not serious" to the weaker player. PARTICULARLY not if he won (by any stretch of the regulations). However, this programmer at least is very happy that Ms. Xiao Ai Lin gave his program enough attention to pound it to pieces. Now, if I read in the tournament report that the second human-computer game didn't happen because "The pro showed a lack of enthusiasm, and did not turn up in the room at the time it was meant to happen.", it might as well have read: "The pro drove a stick through the heart of the programmer while telling him he is an insignificant being not worthy of any attention and certainly not half an hour of his time." Not serious, eh? Ever seen a crazy programmer with a pitchfork? Arrr! -- GCP PS. I might have exaggerated "ever so slightly" in this post to get my point across, and I apologize in advance to all the (go) programmers, go players and go tournament directors I offended and who think I unjustly spoke in their name. I think you expressed things remarkably well. (Is English really not your native language?) I don't have an image of you for http://www.computer-go.info/db/operson.php?a=Pascutto%2C+Gian-Carlo Will you mind if I use that one? :-) Nick _______ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] August KGS bot tournament: small boards, fast
Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. The Formal division will be a 12-round Swiss, 9x9 boards, 8 minutes each sudden death. The Open division will be an 8-round Swiss, 13x13 boards, 13 minutes each sudden death. They will start at 08:00 UTC (=GMT) and 08:05 respectively, and end four hours later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=409 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=410 These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Some thoughts on the event in Leksand
For the European Go Congress computer Go tournaments, I required programs to be actually present. This was a debatable decision, but is not what I propose to discuss now. I did allow people to send in their programs; I think this was a mistake, and the purpose of this email is to explain why. I encouraged programmers to be present in person to run their programs. Those who could not be present in person, I encouraged to appoint operators for their programs. To those who could neither be present, nor find someone in Leksand to operate it for them, I promised to find a volunteer from among the operators already present, to operate it for them. I anticipated, correctly, that it would be easy for me to find such people. Four people sent in their programs, as zip files in emails to my gmail address which I could use in Leksand. On the day before the tournaments I installed and tested these programs on the machines in the playing room; and on the day of the tournaments I persuaded volunteers (Esa Seuranen and Gunnar Farnebäck) to operate them. All of this went smoothly, and there was no problem with any of it, so far as I am aware. However, something easily could have gone wrong. Not all the programs sent as enclosures arrived at the first attempt: gmail seems to reject some types of enclosure. The unzipping was not all trivial, and I was hampered by being unable to read Swedish, which the operating system of all the computers was using. Not all the programs ran first time, and I had to make changes to batch files. Not all the configuration files were correctly set for the tournaments. I was, perhaps, lucky in having two very competent programmers available as volunteer operators. In fact they had to do little more than click on batch files, but things might have been different. So, all the tasks I undertook were easy, and I performed them right. But there was a significant risk of something going wrong. If I had been less competent, or had left less time for preparation, we might now have an entrant complaining "Nick, it's entirely you fault my program didn't get to play. All you had to do was edit the batch file to refer to the correct drive letter for where you chose to install the program. Surely you could have managed that? You even did it right for one of the other programs". I don't mind the work, though it took far longer than I had expected. What I want to avoid is the responsibility. If someone messes up the settings of his own program (as happens often enough in the monthly KGS events) it is unfortunate, but he has only himself to blame. If he appoints an operator who messes up, that is also unfortunate, but it is still no concern of the organisers. But if the tournament organiser agrees to help, and then fails to do it right, he has to accept the blame for running an unfair tournament. I would advise all tournament organisers to avoid any risk of this. Nick That all sounds a bit serious, so here's an irrelevant anecdote to lighten the tone. When I first came across microcomputers, in 1981, there was a chess program that ran on them. It played so badly that even I could beat it; so I looked for other challenges, such as to stalemate it. I was surprised by its behaviour when stalemated, which I assume was caused by its being programmed to make the best move it could manage, where being legal was an overriding, but not essential, feature of "best move". When it was stalemated, it couldn't find a legal move, so it would make the best illegal move it could find. This was typically to pick up my queen, change its colour, and capture my rook with it. -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] August KGS bot tournament: small boards, fast
Reminder - it's tomorrow. Registration is now open for this Sunday's bot tournament on KGS. The Formal division will be a 12-round Swiss, 9x9 boards, 8 minutes each sudden death. The Open division will be an 8-round Swiss, 13x13 boards, 13 minutes each sudden death. They will start at 08:00 UTC (=GMT) and 08:05 respectively, and end four hours later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=409 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=410 These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] yesterday's KGS bot tournament
My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/41/index.html Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] yesterday's KGS bot tournament
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I saw an error in this, but when I looked again it was gone. Yes, I normally make a few errors which I spot soon after uploading :) Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] September KGS bot tournament: large boards, fast
Registration is now open for the next bot tournament on KGS, which will be on Sunday September 14th. Each division will be an 8-round Swiss, 19x19 boards, 18 minutes each sudden death. They will start at 16:00 UTC (=GMT) and 16:05 respectively, and end five hours twenty minutes later. Registration is as described at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/how/index.html When you register you should tell me the processor power (number of processors, processor speed, and any other significant details) of the platform that it will be running on. This is so that the processor power can be stated on my report of the event, making comparisons between programs more meaningful for anyone reading the report. I have limited understanding of this information, and am likely to publish it as given, see for example the final section of http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/39/index.html The tournaments are on the KGS site at http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=411 and http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=412 These pages may give the times of the rounds in your local timezone, depending on your browser and its settings. Nick -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
