Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Kimmo Koskinen]

Hi,

Wanted to mention two more languages, that might be interesting:

Hy: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/ (Lisp that targets Python's AST, has 
Clojure flavoured syntax)
newLISP: http://www.newlisp.org/ (at least FFI seems simple: 
http://www.newlisp.org/newlisp_manual.html#import)

- Kimmo

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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Fergal Byrne]

Hi Alan,

Don't be deterred - it's a great question... Some people are just having a
separate conversation in the one thread ;)

I think there is a threshold in your domain, which gives a different answer
on each side.

The easy side is for something RaspberryPi or Arduino-sized (or bigger),
where you can - as Chris' wonderful talk demonstrates - simply run a big
fat JVM on your hardware. This might be a bit wasteful, but Moore's Law has
given us this and we can happily concentrate on the domain (improving life
for your chickens) and ignore the hardware.

It's likely you're really asking about the hard side of that boundary,
where I guess most of us big-iron software people have little expertise. On
this side, you're talking about development in a language which assumes a
VM, but you've to execute in a world without it. You've two main choices:
a) compile all the way down to metal or b) mimic the VM very thinly.

For a) the Clojure to Gambit Scheme to C route is not insane. All compilers
use lots of intermediate representations (DSLs) and compile from one to the
next in stages. It's likely that this exact pathway is not optimal, so
perhaps we'll need a better one for real embedded Clojure.

For b) something like Nim might be a fit. It looks to me like combining
Clojurescript's Cljs-in-Cljs (or similar in Elixir's) design with an
"emitter" for Nim (and using Nim mutable data structures instead of Java's)
might work.

You could consider b) as a) in Nim's clothing, by the way.

On the other hand, there is huge effort going into the Javascript engines
for embedded systems. Plain Clojurescript could be used here. In terms of
how much effort *we* have to put in, this route might be the one.

By the way, the Erlang people have projects [1, 2] to dig up their ancient,
tiny BEAM designs for use in embedded systems and the new massively
multicore chips like Parallela. It's not Clojure, but Elixir is a
love-child of Clojure and Erlang which might be worth looking at.

Regards,

Fergal

[1] http://www.erlang-embedded.com/about/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCg1LakJF3g

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Kimmo Koskinen 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Wanted to mention two more languages, that might be interesting:
>
> Hy: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/ (Lisp that targets Python's AST,
> has Clojure flavoured syntax)
> newLISP: http://www.newlisp.org/ (at least FFI seems simple:
> http://www.newlisp.org/newlisp_manual.html#import)
>
> - Kimmo
>
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-- 

Fergal Byrne, Brenter IT

http://inbits.com - Better Living through Thoughtful Technology
http://ie.linkedin.com/in/fergbyrne/ - https://github.com/fergalbyrne

Founder of Clortex: HTM in Clojure -
https://github.com/nupic-community/clortex

Author, Real Machine Intelligence with Clortex and NuPIC
Read for free or buy the book at https://leanpub.com/realsmartmachines

Speaking on Clortex and HTM/CLA at euroClojure Krakow, June 2014:
http://euroclojure.com/2014/
and at LambdaJam Chicago, July 2014: http://www.lambdajam.com

e:fergalbyrnedub...@gmail.com t:+353 83 4214179
Join the quest for Machine Intelligence at http://numenta.org
Formerly of Adnet edi...@adnet.ie http://www.adnet.ie

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Wrapping org.apache.commons.math3.complex

[Alan Forrester]

Hello

I'm currently trying to wrap org.apache.commons.math3.complex

http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-math/apidocs/org/apache/commons/math3/complex/Complex.html

to make a complex number library and I have a problem. Many of the
methods won't work with all Clojure number types. For example,

(.add (Complex. 1.0 2.0) 2)

produces an IllegalArgumentException. The method only works if at
least one of the arguments is a complex number although the other can
be a double.

What would be the best way of handling this? Should I just wrap add
the way it is and explain what types are expected in the
documentation, or is there a better way of dealing with this issue
that would allow Clojure number types to be used seamlessly?

Alan

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Re: Clojure community organisation

[Albin Stjerna]

I'd really like to see some sort of indexed infrastructure for documenting
and standardising common patterns and anti-patterns on various levels –
think Stack Exchange, but preemptive. I think this would go a long way
toward helping newcomers and spreading good practices.

On 30 April 2015 at 23:31, Daniel Solano Gómez  wrote:

> On Wed Apr 29 11:10 2015, Hildeberto Mendonça wrote:
> > This is a awesome idea!
> >
> > In my opinion, this organization would attract the maximum number of
> people
> > if its mission is centred on Knowledge Management:
> >
> >1. Wiki-based Clojure documentation, such as clojuredocs.org,
> containing
> >the "official" documentation, but constantly improved by the
> community with
> >more examples and rephrasing complex sentences, etc;
> >2. Wiki-based libraries documentation, related to Clojars and
> following
> >the same model of the previous documentation;
> >3. Agregation of content produced by bloggers and websites out there,
> >everything indexed by tags linked to Clojure versions and libraries in
> >clojars for cross-navigation;
> >4. Agregation of videos and slides produced by conference speakers,
> >instructors.
> >5. Everything gamefied so people can win points for their
> contributions
> >and increase their reputation like in stackoverflow.com.
> >
> > I would love to join as a member to have discounts in books, conferences,
> > courses, tshirts, etc.
> >
> > I absolutely rate professional certifications, but I'm in favour of
> > certified courses, so we can be sure the instructors are capable of
> > teaching Clojure properly, with idiomatic code.
> >
> > What about promoting Clojure as a first language in universities? We
> would
> > need to help teachers to create equivalent syllabus to the ones they are
> > already using to teach Python, for example.
> >
> > So, this is my brainstorming.
>
> Thank you for your input.  You've brought up a few key things that are
> important to help grow the Clojure community, especially better
> documentation and learning materials.  That's definitely something we
> need to figure out how to promote.
>
> I appreciate any ideas on how to an org can help ake this happen.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel
>
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Daniel Solano Gómez <
> cloj...@sattvik.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello, all,
> > >
> > > I've brought up the idea of some sort of Clojure community organisation
> > > a few times on this mailing list.  The ideas is to help grow the
> Clojure
> > > community by doing things like supporting GSoC students, run
> > > infrastructure like Clojars, help run conferences, etc.  I have decided
> > > to start moving forward and apply for fiscal sponsorship from the
> > > Software Freedom Conservancy and Software in the Public Interest.
> Those
> > > things take time to work themselves out.  In the meantime, I appreciate
> > > any input/feedback about what this org should do or what it should look
> > > like.  As such, I have posted a page on the community wiki to start
> > > braainstorming and discussing ideas
> > > <
> http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Community+Organisation>.
> > >
> > > A big thank you to everyone.  Participating in this community has been
> a
> > > very positive experience for me, and I would love to see it to continue
> > > to flourish.  I appreciate any help or advice on how to make this
> > > initiative succeed in supporting the community.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hildeberto Mendonça, Ph.D
> > Blog: http://www.hildeberto.com
> > Community: http://www.cejug.net
> > Twitter: https://twitter.com/htmfilho
> >
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Streaming Media East NYC Mini-Meetup 5/10

[Nathan B]

If any Clojurians will be at Streaming Media East or just local to NYC and 
would like to do a mini-meetup at the New York Hilton Midtown on 5/10 in 
the evening let me know. Would be nice to meet up and have a few drinks and 
talk Clojure. I can organize if there is some interest.

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Re: Wrapping org.apache.commons.math3.complex

[Plínio Balduino]

Hi Alan

Excuse me if I didn't understand your question, but I think a type hint
would solve. Maybe you could abstract this for the final user in Clojure.

(.add (Complex. 1.0 2.0) ^double 2)

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Alan Forrester <
alanmichaelforres...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hello
>
> I'm currently trying to wrap org.apache.commons.math3.complex
>
>
> http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-math/apidocs/org/apache/commons/math3/complex/Complex.html
>
> to make a complex number library and I have a problem. Many of the
> methods won't work with all Clojure number types. For example,
>
> (.add (Complex. 1.0 2.0) 2)
>
> produces an IllegalArgumentException. The method only works if at
> least one of the arguments is a complex number although the other can
> be a double.
>
> What would be the best way of handling this? Should I just wrap add
> the way it is and explain what types are expected in the
> documentation, or is there a better way of dealing with this issue
> that would allow Clojure number types to be used seamlessly?
>
> Alan
>
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Re: Wrapping org.apache.commons.math3.complex

[James Reeves]

You could just convert any Number into a Double:

(if (number? x) (double x) x)

Or create a protocol for the conversion. If you're concerned about
performance, measure the result with a benchmarking library like Criterium.

- James

On 2 May 2015 at 12:53, Alan Forrester 
wrote:

> Hello
>
> I'm currently trying to wrap org.apache.commons.math3.complex
>
>
> http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-math/apidocs/org/apache/commons/math3/complex/Complex.html
>
> to make a complex number library and I have a problem. Many of the
> methods won't work with all Clojure number types. For example,
>
> (.add (Complex. 1.0 2.0) 2)
>
> produces an IllegalArgumentException. The method only works if at
> least one of the arguments is a complex number although the other can
> be a double.
>
> What would be the best way of handling this? Should I just wrap add
> the way it is and explain what types are expected in the
> documentation, or is there a better way of dealing with this issue
> that would allow Clojure number types to be used seamlessly?
>
> Alan
>
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Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what 
I found:



FRAMEWORK   LANG  CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS

LuminusClojure28678
CaribouClojure 2275

BeegoGolang991522

PhoenixElixir  1241949

YesodHaskell   1303722

LaravelPHP2684421

PlayScala   4176085

SymfonyPHP113020914

RailsRuby   269151000


One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that 
interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests 
otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only 
goes so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in 
March last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower 
means less momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that 
Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this 
immaturity in the web framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a 
much smaller community and lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 
times as much mindshare into its main web framework when its module 
output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of Clojure's?


gvim




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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 4:43:53 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what 
> I found: 
>
>
> FRAMEWORK   LANG  CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS 
>
> LuminusClojure28678 
> CaribouClojure 2275 
>
> BeegoGolang991522 
>
> PhoenixElixir  1241949 
>
> YesodHaskell   1303722 
>
> LaravelPHP2684421 
>
> PlayScala   4176085 
>
> SymfonyPHP113020914 
>
> RailsRuby   269151000 
>
>
> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that 
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests 
> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only 
> goes so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in 
> March last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower 
> means less momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that 
> Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this 
> immaturity in the web framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a 
> much smaller community and lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 
> times as much mindshare into its main web framework when its module 
> output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of Clojure's? 
>
> gvim 
>

Those numbers aren't going to be an apples-to-apples comparison. 
"Contributors" may be lower for the Clojure libs because as a Lisp it 
enables them to be enormously more productive (up to 10x) than the other 
languages. The greater expressiveness allows the same functionality to live 
in a smaller codebase (as measured in LOC), likely reducing the number of 
commits for a given amount of functionality. And Clojure's concurrency and 
immutability constructs likely reduce the number of bugs, and thus the 
number of tickets and the number of commits whose primary purpose is to fix 
bugs.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 02/05/2015 22:06, Fluid Dynamics wrote:


Those numbers aren't going to be an apples-to-apples comparison.
"Contributors" may be lower for the Clojure libs because as a Lisp it
enables them to be enormously more productive (up to 10x) than the other
languages. The greater expressiveness allows the same functionality to
live in a smaller codebase (as measured in LOC), likely reducing the
number of commits for a given amount of functionality. And Clojure's
concurrency and immutability constructs likely reduce the number of
bugs, and thus the number of tickets and the number of commits whose
primary purpose is to fix bugs.



Considering 3 of those languages - Elixir, Haskell and Scala - are 
functional with immutable data structures and equivalent concurrency to 
Clojure's I can't quite agree with you.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 5:12:01 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> On 02/05/2015 22:06, Fluid Dynamics wrote: 
> > 
> > Those numbers aren't going to be an apples-to-apples comparison. 
> > "Contributors" may be lower for the Clojure libs because as a Lisp it 
> > enables them to be enormously more productive (up to 10x) than the other 
> > languages. The greater expressiveness allows the same functionality to 
> > live in a smaller codebase (as measured in LOC), likely reducing the 
> > number of commits for a given amount of functionality. And Clojure's 
> > concurrency and immutability constructs likely reduce the number of 
> > bugs, and thus the number of tickets and the number of commits whose 
> > primary purpose is to fix bugs. 
> > 
>
> Considering 3 of those languages - Elixir, Haskell and Scala - are 
> functional with immutable data structures and equivalent concurrency to 
> Clojure's I can't quite agree with you. 
>

Ah, but none of them are Lisps. No macros, no DSLs, and thus much less of 
the productivity/code-size-efficiency gains.
 

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 02/05/2015 22:25, Fluid Dynamics wrote:


Ah, but none of them are Lisps. No macros, no DSLs, and thus much less
of the productivity/code-size-efficiency gains.



Elixir's macros are quite Lispy under the hood and all 3 languages can 
arguably generate sophisticated DSLs. I'm as much a fan of Lisp's 
benefits as you are but I honestly can't attribute this manpower 
discrepancy to the fact that Clojure is a Lisp. I think the community's 
overemphasis on library composition could be a bigger factor.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 5:36:45 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> On 02/05/2015 22:25, Fluid Dynamics wrote: 
> > 
> > Ah, but none of them are Lisps. No macros, no DSLs, and thus much less 
> > of the productivity/code-size-efficiency gains. 
> > 
>
> Elixir's macros are quite Lispy under the hood and all 3 languages can 
> arguably generate sophisticated DSLs. I'm as much a fan of Lisp's 
> benefits as you are but I honestly can't attribute this manpower 
> discrepancy to the fact that Clojure is a Lisp. I think the community's 
> overemphasis on library composition could be a bigger factor. 
>

"Under the hood" is a delicate way of saying "not homoiconic", whereby 90% 
of the benefit goes away. In any event, the three functional languages you 
name also do have lower numbers for commits and contributors (three-digits) 
than the really messy imperative mutability-everywhere languages 
(four-digits), showing that they are "part of the way there" but not as 
advanced as Clojure. :) 

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Adding components to a stuartsierra/component system at runtime

[Chap Lovejoy]

Hi,

I'm building a system which handles data synchronization with remote 
services. The credentials and configuration parameters for the remote 
services are stored in the database. I'd like to be able to build a 
component which is constructed from the information from the database and 
uses component to resolve the dependencies for other components in the 
system (s3, etc). Is there a mechanism for either adding components to a 
system at runtime or resolving the dependencies for a component which can 
then be stored as part of the state of another?

Thanks,
Chap

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Plínio Balduino]

Excuse me, Fluid. I have to agree with gvim.

But I have the same impression. I think the state of Clojure development
for web is quite immature if you compare with other languages.

To be clear, I could spend lines and lines talking about all the high
quality Clojure library related to web applications and we have great web
applications in the real world like Prismatic and Nubank, so I'm not
criticizing any of the valuable friends that spent their personal time
building awesome stuff.

But, "there's always a but", I still can't see all that claimed
productivity with Clojure for web that I got, for example, I got with Rails
or Flask.

I have friends here working to solve this issue, but I don't think the
scenario will change soon.

That is my two cents.

Plínio

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Fluid Dynamics  wrote:

> On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 5:36:45 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>>
>> On 02/05/2015 22:25, Fluid Dynamics wrote:
>> >
>> > Ah, but none of them are Lisps. No macros, no DSLs, and thus much less
>> > of the productivity/code-size-efficiency gains.
>> >
>>
>> Elixir's macros are quite Lispy under the hood and all 3 languages can
>> arguably generate sophisticated DSLs. I'm as much a fan of Lisp's
>> benefits as you are but I honestly can't attribute this manpower
>> discrepancy to the fact that Clojure is a Lisp. I think the community's
>> overemphasis on library composition could be a bigger factor.
>>
>
> "Under the hood" is a delicate way of saying "not homoiconic", whereby 90%
> of the benefit goes away. In any event, the three functional languages you
> name also do have lower numbers for commits and contributors (three-digits)
> than the really messy imperative mutability-everywhere languages
> (four-digits), showing that they are "part of the way there" but not as
> advanced as Clojure. :)
>
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[James Reeves]

On 2 May 2015 at 21:43, gvim  wrote:

> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests
> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only goes
> so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in March
> last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 .
>

I agree that web development in Clojure can be improved, but I don't see
why it follows that we should be writing web frameworks.

Why is it that Elixir, with a much smaller community and lifespan than
> Clojure's, has managed to put 4 times as much mindshare into its main web
> framework when its module output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a
> tiny fraction of Clojure's?


By what measurement are you drawing this conclusion?

You've listed contributors and commits for single repositories, but that
will clearly produce erroneous results when comparing a monolithic project
to a very modular one.

- James

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Christopher Small]

I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure community 
has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling. And 
this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the Clojure 
sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience).

Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting that 
Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and 865 resp, 
and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp.

I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with 
added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the 
modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win.

Just my 2 c

Chris Small

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 00:39, James Reeves wrote:


I agree that web development in Clojure can be improved, but I don't see
why it follows that we should be writing web frameworks.

Luminus is a web framework. We don't have to write web frameworks at 
all, that's true. Neither did the Ruby community. They had Sinatra 
before Rails but it was Rails which brought them huge mindshare and, 
more importantly, plenty of developers earning a good living. All I'm 
saying is there's room for both approaches but the outside world, where 
people make a living, tends to prefer web frameworks. Clojure needs 
something like Scala's Play/Reactive framework which has a bit of 
industry momentum behind it. It's been 5 years since Clojure 1.0 so the 
excuse that Clojure is still finding its feet is no longer valid.



Why is it that Elixir, with a much smaller community and lifespan
than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 times as much mindshare into
its main web framework when its module output, as measured by
modulecounts.com , is a tiny fraction of
Clojure's?


By what measurement are you drawing this conclusion?

You've listed contributors and commits for single repositories, but that
will clearly produce erroneous results when comparing a monolithic
project to a very modular one.



Elixir's Phoenix is as modular as Luminus so the comparison is valid. 
The 2 leading Rails developers behind it - Jose Valim and Chris McCord - 
recognised before Elixir reached 1.0 that a strong web framework was 
essential to gaining mindshare.


gvim


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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 00:53, Christopher Small wrote:

I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure community
has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling.
And this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the
Clojure sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience).

Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting
that Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and
865 resp, and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp.

I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with
added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the
modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win.

Just my 2 c

Chris Small


Most decent web frameworks these days are built from modular components 
so this distinction is a bit laboured. Rails is built on top of Active* 
and Rack so the Ring/Compojure distinction is illusory. Laravel is built 
on top of Symfony components it could be argued that Symfony has played 
a similar role to Ring/Compojure in the PHP community.


Clojure's modular approach is great but I just don't see the need to 
polarise when there's such a strong business case for structured 
frameworks. If you look at most of the jobs in web development at 
Indeed.com they're almost exclusively framework-based. Modular is great 
but it would also be nice to see a few more Clojure jobs advertised.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Luc Prefontaine]

Business case...

I have two business cases at hand.

None can be done with frameworks w/o making the end products look like any 
other one in their respective space and having to bend to framework limitations.

Being disruptive requires a different approach.
 
Having to write all these individual libs ourselves would make these two 
product sets much more difficult to create. Experimentation would also suffer a 
lot.

Now we have the elements to create new recipes instead of everyone eating the 
same dry cake that's been left on the shelf for a year.

Aside from HR tagging, I see little value in a branded framework.
Being reluctant to be part of a tagged herd, I can't agree with you :)

But given my (bad) character this may explain that :)

Luc P.

> On 03/05/2015 00:53, Christopher Small wrote:
> > I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure community
> > has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling.
> > And this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the
> > Clojure sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience).
> >
> > Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting
> > that Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and
> > 865 resp, and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp.
> >
> > I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with
> > added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the
> > modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win.
> >
> > Just my 2 c
> >
> > Chris Small
> 
> Most decent web frameworks these days are built from modular components 
> so this distinction is a bit laboured. Rails is built on top of Active* 
> and Rack so the Ring/Compojure distinction is illusory. Laravel is built 
> on top of Symfony components it could be argued that Symfony has played 
> a similar role to Ring/Compojure in the PHP community.
> 
> Clojure's modular approach is great but I just don't see the need to 
> polarise when there's such a strong business case for structured 
> frameworks. If you look at most of the jobs in web development at 
> Indeed.com they're almost exclusively framework-based. Modular is great 
> but it would also be nice to see a few more Clojure jobs advertised.
> 
> gvim
> 
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Christopher Small]

For rails sure. What about Elixer & Yesod? Those could be just as modular
for all I know... I'm just saying that one way or the other, those things
should be taken into account since they are important.

OO junk leads to bloat.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 5:15 PM, gvim  wrote:

> On 03/05/2015 00:53, Christopher Small wrote:
>
>> I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure community
>> has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling.
>> And this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the
>> Clojure sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience).
>>
>> Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting
>> that Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and
>> 865 resp, and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp.
>>
>> I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with
>> added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the
>> modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win.
>>
>> Just my 2 c
>>
>> Chris Small
>>
>
> Most decent web frameworks these days are built from modular components so
> this distinction is a bit laboured. Rails is built on top of Active* and
> Rack so the Ring/Compojure distinction is illusory. Laravel is built on top
> of Symfony components it could be argued that Symfony has played a similar
> role to Ring/Compojure in the PHP community.
>
> Clojure's modular approach is great but I just don't see the need to
> polarise when there's such a strong business case for structured
> frameworks. If you look at most of the jobs in web development at
> Indeed.com they're almost exclusively framework-based. Modular is great but
> it would also be nice to see a few more Clojure jobs advertised.
>
> gvim
>
>
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 01:37, Luc Prefontaine wrote:

Business case...

I have two business cases at hand.

None can be done with frameworks w/o making the end products look like any 
other one in their respective space and having to bend to framework limitations.

Being disruptive requires a different approach.

Having to write all these individual libs ourselves would make these two 
product sets much more difficult to create. Experimentation would also suffer a 
lot.

Now we have the elements to create new recipes instead of everyone eating the 
same dry cake that's been left on the shelf for a year.

Aside from HR tagging, I see little value in a branded framework.
Being reluctant to be part of a tagged herd, I can't agree with you :)

But given my (bad) character this may explain that :)

Luc P.


All I'm saying is it doesn't have to be either/or. Clojure is big enough 
for modular and (relatively :)) monolithic approaches.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[James Reeves]

On 3 May 2015 at 01:02, gvim  wrote:

> On 03/05/2015 00:39, James Reeves wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree that web development in Clojure can be improved, but I don't see
>> why it follows that we should be writing web frameworks.
>>
>>  Luminus is a web framework. We don't have to write web frameworks at
> all, that's true. Neither did the Ruby community. They had Sinatra before
> Rails but it was Rails which brought them huge mindshare and, more
> importantly, plenty of developers earning a good living.


Sinatra was written three years after Ruby on Rails.


> All I'm saying is there's room for both approaches but the outside world,
> where people make a living, tends to prefer web frameworks.


Are we ultimately aiming for something that's popular, or something that
ultimately works better?


> You've listed contributors and commits for single repositories, but that
>> will clearly produce erroneous results when comparing a monolithic
>> project to a very modular one.
>>
>
> Elixir's Phoenix is as modular as Luminus so the comparison is valid. The
> 2 leading Rails developers behind it - Jose Valim and Chris McCord -
> recognised before Elixir reached 1.0 that a strong web framework was
> essential to gaining mindshare.


Luminus is essentially a Leiningen template. I'm not too familiar with
Phoenix, but my initial impression of the source and docs is that's it's
more than just an application template.

To pick one example, Phoenix appears to have its own routing system, where
Luminus depends on Compojure. If Luminus and Compojure were counted
together, your statistics for number of commits and contributors would
double.

Without accounting for how much functionality is in the repository itself,
and how much is pulled in from other libraries, comparing commits or
contributor numbers is meaningless.

- James

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 1:43 PM, gvim  wrote:

> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests
> otherwise.


Yes, lots of web apps get built with Clojure.


> Furthermore, I have a hunch that Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by
> Indeed.com maybe due to this immaturity in the web framework sphere.


I think Clojure's adoption is just fine for its age and its uniqueness.
It's not the sort of language that mainstream developers are going to rush
to, to build general web apps. People who adopt Clojure generally do so
because they want to build software "The Clojure Way". That they also build
a lot of web apps is somewhat incidental.

Every now and then we see a call for a "big web framework" and every now
and then someone builds a "big web framework"... but the people who call
for these frameworks don't seem to rally around the frameworks that appear,
so it's really no surprise that these frameworks don't have the traction
you're looking for...

I've used some "big web frameworks". I don't like them.

Years ago, for another language, I collaborated on almost every major web
framework that appeared. I was lead developer on a few of them for various
periods of time. Six years ago, I created my own very small,
convention-based framework for that language. It's one of the top two
frameworks for that language in terms of downloads, users, and mindshare.
We run a bunch of high traffic production stuff on it at work. A few years
back I decided to port it to Clojure, mostly as a personal challenge, but
also because I thought it might be useful at work. Clojure's focuse on
libraries meant that I only needed to write 400 lines of code and leverage
Ring, and Selmer, to get it up and running. I haven't promoted it in the
Clojure community yet because I'm not yet using it in production but I
think it's a good solution -- but it's definitely not a "big web framework".
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Different behavior for .cljc file?

[Brandon Bloom]

Hi Clojure 1.7 folks,

I'm trying to port Fipp to ClojureScript with .cljc files and feature 
expressions. My first step was to rename files from .clj to .cljc, but 
doing that broke my code. I'm not exactly sure what's wrong, but before I 
dig any further

Is simply renaming .clj to .cljc files expected to preserve the code's 
behavior?

If yes, I've hit a bug that I don't yet understand. Let me know, so I can 
help track it down.

 

If no, I don't understand the .cljc file approach. Please help me 
understand!


This is the (rename-only) commit that breaks my tests:

https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/commit/019e8b527bd8146554f2fb98eb2c13c1d33229ec


Cheers,
Brandon

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Re: [ANN] Clojure 1.7.0-beta2

[Brandon Bloom]

Upgrading a couple of projects to 1.7 seems to have gone quite smoothly. 
Thanks!

However, I've encountered some problems with new features, like .cljc files.
Please see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/TrYkq1lUuZw 

Cheers,
Brandon

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 11:27:34 AM UTC-7, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> Clojure 1.7.0-beta2 is now available.
>
> Try it via
> - Download: 
> https://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/clojure/1.7.0-beta2/
> - Leiningen: [org.clojure/clojure "1.7.0-beta2"]
>
> Regression fixes since 1.7.0-beta1:
>
> 1) CLJ-1711 - structmap iterator broken
> 2) CLJ-1709 - range wrong for step != 1
> 3) CLJ-1713 - range chunks are not serializable
> 4) CLJ-1698 - fix reader conditional bugs
>
> Additional enhancements to new features since 1.7.0-beta1:
>
> 1) CLJ-1703 - Pretty print #error and new public function Throwable->map
> 2) CLJ-1700 - Reader conditionals now allowed in the REPL
> 3) CLJ-1699 - Allow data_readers.cljc as well as data_readers.clj
>   
> For a full list of changes since 1.6.0, see:
> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
>
> Please give it a try and let us know if things are working (or not)!
>
> - Alex
>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[John Chijioke]

What is a web framework?

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 9:43:53 PM UTC+1, g vim wrote:
>
> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what 
> I found: 
>
>
> FRAMEWORK   LANG  CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS 
>
> LuminusClojure28678 
> CaribouClojure 2275 
>
> BeegoGolang991522 
>
> PhoenixElixir  1241949 
>
> YesodHaskell   1303722 
>
> LaravelPHP2684421 
>
> PlayScala   4176085 
>
> SymfonyPHP113020914 
>
> RailsRuby   269151000 
>
>
> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that 
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests 
> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only 
> goes so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in 
> March last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower 
> means less momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that 
> Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this 
> immaturity in the web framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a 
> much smaller community and lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 
> times as much mindshare into its main web framework when its module 
> output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of Clojure's? 
>
> gvim 
>
>
>
>
>

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Different behavior for .cljc file?

[Alex Miller]

There should be no ill effect from simply renaming from clj to cljc. What error 
are you seeing?

Please also consider whether something in your tool chain is at fault. For 
example, if the cljc files are not getting properly packaged or included in the 
classpath then there may need to be changed in the tools. While I've tried 
several things successfully, there could easily be more to do.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Mark Engelberg]

Last week, at the Clojure/West conference, someone (I think it was Brandon
Bloom) summed up the general vibe well, by saying something along the lines
of, "We now have all the pieces in place to make web development an order
of magnitude more productive than in any other language, we just need to
figure out how to put it all together and make that happen."

I think that's right.  From a technological standpoint, I think we're
there.  The things we most need are informational resources and
higher-level shared resources, such as UI widgets.  For example:

How do we use Buddy/Friend effectively to achieve secure web apps?  (The
docs are not sufficiently informative for those who haven't thought much
about security and assume too much prior knowledge).

How do we effectively leverage some of the more advanced Clojure-oriented
webservers such as Aleph and Immutant?

Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's the
easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially with, say,
Drupal or Django?

Since more and more people are working with Reagent/Om/etc., we need as
many Bootstrap-like widgets as possible for those tools, and more
informational resources about how to use these new reactive models
effectively, for example, how to do animated UIs.

Are there reusable components like, say, shopping baskets?

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Mike Rodriguez]

Not really related. But I just want to chime in to say I love this quote from 
Fluid in regards to the DSL bit:

"Under the hood" is a delicate way of saying "not homoiconic", whereby 90% of 
the benefit goes away. 

+1 to that! 

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg 
wrote:

> Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's the
> easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially with, say,
> Drupal or Django?
>

The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is
already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used
scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over
themselves to help... :)

Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Mark Engelberg]

Because many problems start out as things that can be solved with standard
solutions and then evolve into something more elaborate.  Best to start
with something that can both do the easy things, and handle the more
complex stuff as well.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Sean Corfield  wrote:

> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's the
>> easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially with, say,
>> Drupal or Django?
>>
>
> The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is
> already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used
> scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over
> themselves to help... :)
>
> Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
> doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
> World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
>
> "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
>
> --
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 10:20 PM, Mark Engelberg 
wrote:

> Because many problems start out as things that can be solved with standard
> solutions and then evolve into something more elaborate.  Best to start
> with something that can both do the easy things, and handle the more
> complex stuff as well.
>

Perfection is the enemy of the good (Gustave Flaubert).

Sean

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Imre Samu]

>Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

Some people make a big technology decision based on " TechEmpower Framework
Benchmarks (TFB)" (round10)
[ https://www.techempower.com/blog/2015/04/21/framework-benchmarks-round-10/
]
Should techempower.com framework benchmarks be taken seriously ?

The following clojure frameworks tested by TFB :

Test type: "JSON serialization"
- compojure
- http-kit
- luminus

Test type: "Single query"
- http-kit
- compojure-raw
- luminus-raw
- compojure
- luminus

Test type: "Multiple queries"
-http-kit
-luminus-raw
-compojure
-compojure-raw
-luminus

Test type: "Fortunes"
- compojure
- luminus

Test type: "Data updates"
(nothing)

Test type: "Plaintext"
-compojure -luminus


Regards,
 Imre




2015-05-02 22:43 GMT+02:00 gvim :

> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what I
> found:
>
>
> FRAMEWORK   LANG  CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS
>
> LuminusClojure28678
> CaribouClojure 2275
>
> BeegoGolang991522
>
> PhoenixElixir  1241949
>
> YesodHaskell   1303722
>
> LaravelPHP2684421
>
> PlayScala   4176085
>
> SymfonyPHP113020914
>
> RailsRuby   269151000
>
>
> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests
> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only goes
> so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in March
> last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower means less
> momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that Clojure's poor
> adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this immaturity in the web
> framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a much smaller community and
> lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 times as much mindshare into
> its main web framework when its module output, as measured by
> modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of Clojure's?
>
> gvim
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sven Richter]

Hi,

Reading through all the discussion I don't get which features you are 
actually missing. I love luminus and did a lot with it, however, for me it 
was missing some standard stuff, that's why I put together closp, which is 
just another leiningen template providing some more features out of the box.
I'd consider adding even more features if you would become more specific in 
terms of features.

For the rest I agree with what is mostly said here, the beauty of clojure 
lies in the nature of small composable building blocks and the same goes 
for frameworks, so, basically it's all there, one just has to put it 
together. And to not have to put it together by hand time and time again 
there are leiningen templates.

Best Regards,
Sven

Am Samstag, 2. Mai 2015 22:43:53 UTC+2 schrieb g vim:
>
> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what 
> I found: 
>
>
> FRAMEWORK   LANG  CONTRIBUTORS COMMITS 
>
> LuminusClojure28678 
> CaribouClojure 2275 
>
> BeegoGolang991522 
>
> PhoenixElixir  1241949 
>
> YesodHaskell   1303722 
>
> LaravelPHP2684421 
>
> PlayScala   4176085 
>
> SymfonyPHP113020914 
>
> RailsRuby   269151000 
>
>
> One could conclude from this that the Clojure community isn't that 
> interested in web development but the last Clojure survey suggests 
> otherwise. Clojure's library composition approach to everything only 
> goes so far with large web applications, as Aaron Bedra reminded us in 
> March last year: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBL59w7fXw4 . Less manpower 
> means less momentum and more bugs. Furthermore, I have a hunch that 
> Clojure's poor adoption as indicated by Indeed.com maybe due to this 
> immaturity in the web framework sphere. Why is it that Elixir, with a 
> much smaller community and lifespan than Clojure's, has managed to put 4 
> times as much mindshare into its main web framework when its module 
> output, as measured by modulecounts.com, is a tiny fraction of Clojure's? 
>
> gvim 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Colin Fleming]

Because, in my case, I'm going to need a website shortly that I can use to
sell Cursive. I'd really like to use Clojure for that. I could use Rails or
Django which would make the site itself trivial, except I don't know either
of them and then I'm stuck maintaining something in a language and
framework I have no interest in and don't understand how to deploy or
maintain. Or I could do it in Clojure which means that I understand the
libraries, frameworks, deployment and monitoring inside and out, except I
now have to implement a shopping cart and integrations with payments
gateways etc. Neither of these are great options for me.

On 3 May 2015 at 16:24, Sean Corfield  wrote:

> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's the
>> easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially with, say,
>> Drupal or Django?
>>
>
> The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is
> already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used
> scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over
> themselves to help... :)
>
> Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
> doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
> World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
>
> "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
>
> --
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Re: Different behavior for .cljc file?

[Brandon Bloom]

Short version: Old version of the lib was on the classpath.

Longer version: `lein with-profiles -user whatevertask` to disable the user 
profile apparently doesn't work.

I was using:
export CLASSPATH=$(lein with-profiles -user classpath) java clojure.main

Figured I had ruled out my tools, since I was explicitly using the builtin 
tools, but... When I hand crafted the class path, it all worked. Mumbled 
"dammit lein" to myself, and then tracked it down to a rogue shadow version 
of my namespace in one of the jars on the path. *grumble grumble*.

It's also worth mentioning that this problem wasn't being caught because 
the newer version was earlier on the class path. Once you split a file up 
in to foo.clj and foo.cljc files, you run in to a risk of finding the two 
halves of foo.clj* out of two different jars!

Thanks for the push to dig deeper, Alex!

Cheers,
Brandon

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 8:13:57 PM UTC-7, Alex Miller wrote:
>
> There should be no ill effect from simply renaming from clj to cljc. What 
> error are you seeing? 
>
> Please also consider whether something in your tool chain is at fault. For 
> example, if the cljc files are not getting properly packaged or included in 
> the classpath then there may need to be changed in the tools. While I've 
> tried several things successfully, there could easily be more to do.

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