ULTRIX-11 3.1 manuals / help?

[Josh Dersch]

Hey all --

Anyone have a copy of the ULTRIX-11 3.0 or 3.1 manuals lying around?  
I've got the 11/44 up and running with an SMD disk and a SCSI 9-track 
tape drive and I have ULTRIX-11 3.1 installed.  (Yay!) But there are 
issues (Boo.)


Unfortunately, the "setup" tool (and *what* a tool it is!) doesn't seem 
to be able to access the tape drive to install optional software.  (I 
know it's working -- the files are there in /dev, mt talks to it fine 
and I can dd files off of it no problem).  Of course, in a very un-UNIXy 
move on DEC's part, "setup" is an executable, not a shell script so I 
can't see what the heck it's trying to do.  And in a *very* UNIXy move, 
"setup" provides no actionable diagnostics whatsoever.  It immediately 
fails (having made no attempt to access the drive as far as I can tell) 
and prints "Open of distribution device FAILED: Try again ?"


I'd like to be able to restore the rest of the optional software and 
whatnot; the files on the tape appear to be tar archives so I can just 
do it manually (and tediously) and I imagine that that's what the setup 
tool does *anyway*, but I'd like to at least *try* to do it the official 
way.  Anyone have any experience here?


Also, having an actual manual would be useful, ULTRIX-11 3.X seems to be 
considerably different than 2.0 (at least in that it has this wonderful 
new "setup" program I'm having so much fun with), which is all I've been 
able to find.



Thanks as always,
Josh

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 03:09:25PM -0600, ben wrote:
> On 10/14/2015 2:57 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
> >On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >
> >>On 10/14/2015 11:04 AM, ben wrote:
> >>> On 10/14/2015 8:15 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>   OK so if we agree there are three classes computer Namely
>   Micro,Mini, and Mainframe. It follows that there must be three
>   classes of vintage computer. We dont need patches with pictures but
>   it should say what type of system we major in *snip*
> >>>
> >>> As I am building a 70's TTL computer in a FPGA, you forgot Home
> >>> Brew. The hardest part is finding parts for the FPGA, sure I can use
> >>> 74XXX but was it out in 1975-76? Ben.
> >>
> >>You forgot "midicomputer".  Once a very hot thing, long ago...sigh.
> >
> >Shouldn't it be microcomputer, minicomputer, midicomputer and
> >maxicomputer?  (think skirts)
> >
> >
> >Mike Loewenmloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> >Old Technologyhttp://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
> >
> >
> 
> Where do sign up for the Vintage Mini-skirt list ...

I think it's called pinterest:

https://www.pinterest.com/jennschiffer/women-computers/

Re: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Liam Proven]

On 14 October 2015 at 17:15, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> Wow! What a fabulous story/writeup! Highly recommend to everyone.


Oh good -- glad someone else enjoyed it. :-)

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Rod Smallwood]

You want sentimental? I have a VT100 that I know I sold to a customer in 
1975 whilst at DEC and that came back a couple of years ago in a 
clearout pile from I know not where. I still had my old day book I in 
which kept  the serial numbers and there it was!! Needless to say 
surprise was not the one half of it! Forty years is a good age for any 
terminal. Its all cleaned up and looks and works as well as the day it 
came off the line at Westfield.


DEC had many plants like Westfield in Massachusetts. Most  companies 
would have an interplant bus service.

 DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam.
I heard the following story at a sales meeting.:

The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the 
next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia.
Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, 
smallarms fire and ground to air missiles demo".
Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you 
had your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires.

You missed going under the bridge on the other side


Rod Smallwood



On 15/10/2015 04:16, Jon Elson wrote:

On 10/14/2015 12:34 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
Sorry old chap just an example. I'm a old DEC guy. My biggest system 
is a VAX


I think the 360 was back in the days when they rented every thing so 
not much was left behind

Mind you I would not turn down a racks worth of AS400

In the EARLY days of the 360, that was true, but in later days many 
people owned their machines.  Washington University rented their 
360/50, but then bought a used 360/65, and then added two used 
370/145s.  Despite the number of 360s made, there are REALLY few left, 
and I'm not sure anybody has any that run.  (Of course, with the SLT 
modules, spares would be a REAL problem.)


Yup, for sentimental reasons, I still have my MicroVAX-II here.

Jon


--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

Re: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Rod Smallwood]

Yes execellent.
Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk.
An order for 30 systems from Midland Bank for an unbuilt  untested computer?

Rod Smallwood





I have seen reference to the mainframe market actually growing again.
Is who is left in te game apart from IBM?


On 15/10/2015 12:57, Liam Proven wrote:

On 14 October 2015 at 17:15, Noel Chiappa  wrote:

Wow! What a fabulous story/writeup! Highly recommend to everyone.


Oh good -- glad someone else enjoyed it. :-)



--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 3:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 03:09:25PM -0600, ben wrote:
>> ...
>> Where do sign up for the Vintage Mini-skirt list ...
> 
> I think it's called pinterest:
> 
> https://www.pinterest.com/jennschiffer/women-computers/

Unfortunately that's one of those websites that doesn't want to show you 
anything unless you sign up, and I don't sign up with outfits like that.

paul

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam.
> I heard the following story at a sales meeting.:
> 
> The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next 
> plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia.
> Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms 
> fire and ground to air missiles demo".
> Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had 
> your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires.
> You missed going under the bridge on the other side

Bummer, I did not know that or I would have asked that question, back in the 
days when I used that service regularly.

paul

Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Jay Jaeger]

I doubt it.  They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to
open the sleeve to punch one.

JRJ

On 10/14/2015 10:39 PM, ben wrote:
> On 10/14/2015 9:39 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> I could spare one - but probably only one.
>>
>> JRJ
>>
> Did they ever make punch to make your own?
> Ben.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Vintage Computer IBM1130

[Jon Elson]

On 10/14/2015 10:32 PM, ben wrote:

On 10/14/2015 9:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


Carl has a IBM 1130
http://rescue1130.blogspot.ca/
Fascinating!  And, of course, with discrete transistors, 
it should not

be that hard to keep the electronics running.
The mechanicals look like a pretty major repair project, 
though!


NO TRANSISTORS ... IBM's special logic for 1965.

Yeah, I guess I'm getting it confused with the 1620.  The 
1130 and 1800 are supposed to be mostly the same, and the 
1800 is definitely SLT.  Well, that may be a real challenge, 
then.  SLT is simple logic, but the art of chip passivation 
was not totally figured out back then, and so the chips 
degraded from moisture and oxygen exposure.  Do you have any 
idea what shape the CPU is in?  Have you powered it on?


Jon

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Eric Christopherson]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood  
>> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam.
>> I heard the following story at a sales meeting.:
>>
>> The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the 
>> next plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia.
>> Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms 
>> fire and ground to air missiles demo".
>> Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had 
>> your eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires.
>> You missed going under the bridge on the other side

They would even fly a team of technicians to a mountaintop to install
a microwave receiver and a single terminal on it!

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 03:07:42PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk.

minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time frame.
More likely "backplane".

mcl

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Rod Smallwood]

Did you work for DEC if so where/


On 15/10/2015 16:02, Paul Koning wrote:

On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood  
wrote:

...
DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam.
I heard the following story at a sales meeting.:

The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next 
plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia.
Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire 
and ground to air missiles demo".
Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your 
eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires.
You missed going under the bridge on the other side

Bummer, I did not know that or I would have asked that question, back in the 
days when I used that service regularly.

paul




--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Rod Smallwood]

So the Eagles could phone home I guess


On 15/10/2015 16:20, Eric Christopherson wrote:

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:

On Oct 15, 2015, at 8:27 AM, Rod Smallwood  
wrote:

...
DEC had a helicopter service. The pilots had nealy all been in Vietnam.
I heard the following story at a sales meeting.:

The helicopters would usually rise gently to 2000' and set course fo the next 
plant. Unless you asked how they had got on in SE Asia.
Then you got the "how to get to the drop zone whilst avoiding AAA, smallarms fire 
and ground to air missiles demo".
Aparrantly one guy said to the person sat next to him it's a pity you had your 
eyes closed when we flew under the high voltage wires.
You missed going under the bridge on the other side

They would even fly a team of technicians to a mountaintop to install
a microwave receiver and a single terminal on it!



--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Ethan Dicks]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Jason T  wrote:
> A man in a black suit and skinny tie came by and asked that we not
> forget the Midrange (System/3, System/3x, AS/400...)

Carl the Technician dropped by.  It's all hooked up.

http://www.marrick.com/IT_Lab.html

-ethan

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Fred Cisin]

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote:

 you can lose your lovers with a Cray


multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a micro 
can lose your marriage.

Re: DG S/130 progress

[Henk Gooijen]

Henk wrote...


Great series of pictures Jay!



Thanks! Most of those pics are "so I don't forget where wires go", but
some of them are presentable :)


I am used to make notes and draw sketchy pictures to remember how cables
were connected. But then, I try to re-install all cabling within a week.
My memory is not yet completely faded in a week, and the drawings do
the rest :-)  When I started collecting back in 1996 or so, I did not
have a camera, so drawing was the only option. I still have drawings of
the PSU and cable harness for the 11/35 from back then.


After more than a year on a desk, I mounted the 6125 tape drive in the
top of the rack with its power supply on the right side next to it.



I went to mount my 6125 today, but alas I may have to get creative.
My 6125 was in a "desktop" stand, and when I remove the power supply
and also look at the DG Installation docs - it appears that they used
a different sheet metal backing to mount the 6125 in a rack (on the side,
as you say) rather than on the desktop unit. I was sooo hoping to just
remove and mount. Well, either they used different metal or my vertical
posts are spaced different than expected. I don't think it's the latter,
because all the measurements matched with the installation guide for the
cpu and the 6030 disk unit.
Hu.. looking at pictures... it's the former. The sheet metal the PS
is mounted on is definitely shorter (left to right) on mine than what is
pictured. I guess I now have a use for the metal brake that I just bought
yesterday that is still in my car ;)


LOL. I also drive for weeks with stuff in the back of the car.
Not because I forgot it ... just waiting for a tactical moment to get it
from the car into the house ;-)
I can only tell about the 6125 that I have. Perhaps there are other methods,
but the drawings and doc that I have (from Bruce, tnx!) match my config.
On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge has
a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw.
The screw (Allen type) is at the front side, you have to remove the pin of
the hinge (screw). After you mount the two hinges on the right side vertical
post, you can mount the 6125 tape drive. Yup, the entire tape drive hangs on
those two hinges. The form the pivot to swing the tape drive in and out of
the rack. That's why the horizontal circuit board has that rounded shape!
On the tape deck, at the left side is a hole for a screw to lock the tape
drive in the rack. The screw simply fits a hole in the left side vertical
post.
The power supply is mounted at the right side (seen from the front) in the
rack, using a metal plate from front to rear vertical post. The drawings
indeed show two versions. The difference is the length of the metal plate.
The distance between components on the horizontal circuit board of the
tape drive and the bottom of the PSU cage is just ~0.5".
Long story. If you like, I can take a set of pictures on Saturday.


Indeed!  I feel like being spoiled by DEC with connectors for everything.

Anything I would say to that would probably start a flame-war between
DEC and DG enthusiasts, so I'll just leave that one alone ;)


Ahh yeah, but that was not my intention. They are different companies,
so they have different ways of doing things, although quite similar.
The one does not have to be better than the other, but my (first)
impression is that DEC stuff is a little easier. But then, I am a
"newbie" in DG land.


I have the controller board for the 6125, but I do not have the cable
from the backplane to the paddle board. I *think* I do have the cable
from the paddle board to the pin header on the 6125 board (the
horizontally mounted one).

As Bruce pointed out to me, there are actually only a few different
backplane wirings. Since it hasn't been rackmounted yet, I haven't gone
searching all the DG racks to see if I have any of the internal or
external or device cables for the 6125. We'll see. I suspect I will
have to make all my own cables; all my DG gear came from two collectors
in separate acquisitions - with one exception. This 6125 I bought off a
shelf at the local electronics haunt years ago, and it had no cables.


As far as I know, there is one pin header on the horizontal circuit
board for connection to the controller and one cable on the vertical
board that goes to the PSU. The other side of the PSU (rear in the rack)
has the mains power cable (cannot be detached).

Yes Bruce is a most-helpful guy ++. I hope to be able to return a favor.
I am told that the disk in the NOVA 3 has a COBOL environment (compiler),
and the NOVA 4/C that I picked up today has a manual of BUSINESS BASIC.
The application on the NOVA 4 is an accounting system written in BASIC.
The complete listing is also in the doc, so expect the interpreter to
find as well on the disk.
I still have to do an inventory of what the system contains, but from
memory I saw it is a NOVA 4/C (or was it "S"?). In the bottom is a
fi

RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> drlegendre .
> Sent: 15 October 2015 00:35
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype
> 
> Brad,
> 
> A few montns ago, with a fair bit of help of the folks on this list, I did up 
> an
> Altair 8800 rebuild. And apparently you & I both saw the same videos, as I got
> all hot and bothered about getting an ASR33 and using it to load software -
> BASIC, for starters - into  the Altair. And again, on members'
> suggestion, I joined the Greenkeys list.
> 
> Too bad, but I was totally +shocked+ at the 'value' placed on ASR33 these
> days!! Thousand dollars and more, not all all unusual.. and my resources just
> can't justify that level of expenditure for what is generally a 'cheap' DIY
> hobby of sorts. Meanwhile, a Greenkeys member in St. Louis, MO popped
> up with a very nice M15 (ex-Bell) that was Free to Good Home. I have (or at
> least had, ha!) a good friend in St. Louis, and he was able to take care of 
> the
> pickup for me - and several months later, i arranged to have it delivered to
> my house by a relative.
> 
> Now the M15 isn't a 33ASR, and lacks the paper tape punch & reader (though
> devices do exist). But what it is, is a truly fantastic piece of 
> electro-mechanical
> engineering that borders on the "tight metal" genre of some earlier business
> machines, such as the Felt & Tarrant Comptometer. If you have general
> mechanical experience, I'd say the M15 is roughly on a par with a 2-spd or
> even 3-spd automatic transmission, in terms of mechanical complexity (the
> the tranny will have a higher parts count.. I think!).
> 
> So while they can be worked with, and documentation is plentiful, they are a
> bit intimidating the first time you see one in action - or inaction, as it 
> may be -
> and they do NOT respond kindly to false moves or other ham-fistery. But
> they are well worth learning, and don't yet seem to have joined their later
> progeny in the financial stratosphere.
> 
> -Bill
> 

I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot teletypes were 
used with early computers. 
Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809 based 
system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system.
They were also widely used in the UK on early computers in the UK. The 
Manchester MK1, Ferranti Pegasus, Ferranti Mercury, Cambridge ENIAC
all used 5-level Creed teleprinters as output devices. As I am sure I have said 
before, Mercury and Pegasus actually output 5-level tape on a high speed punch
which was then feed into a storage bin under the counter, and then read on a 
slower reader connected to the Teleprinter. So physical buffering...

Dave
G4UGM

Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Fred Cisin]

Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a risk.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote:

minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time frame.
More likely "backplane".


Wasn't the B5900 from 1980?
"Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it.
Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane".

"The earliest known reference to motherboard, the main circuit board of a 
personal computer, comes from a 1971 article in the British journal 
Electrical and Electronics Abstracts, according to the Oxford English 
Dictionary. The article refers to one daughterboard mounted vertically on 
a computer size motherboard."
from: 
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/01/the-mother-of-all-boards.html



Google is not my friend today.  I'm encountering multiple variants of "in 
the 1980s and 1990s, it became popular to put peripheral controllers on 
the board", red and blue text overlayed on a full color picture, "IBM PC 
was the first motherboard" (especially amusing since it was similar form 
factor and basic layout as Apple][)


S100 backplane was often called a "motherboard".
By 1978, the Apple ][ main board was called a "motherboard" in the 
industry, although IIRC, Apple preferred to call it a "logic board".


IBM explicitly refused to call it a "motherboard" on the 5150.  According 
to an unreliable source (my late uncle working there at the time), that 
was due to horrified shock at TV coverage of Black Panther speeches at 
Merritt College in Oakland in the late 1960s (when I had attended) and 
on, that had very extensive use of the word "MOTHERFUCKER", shortened to 
"MOTHER__" on TV.  "UP AGAINST THE WALL MOTHER__!"  To avoid association,

IBM refused to call it a "motherboard".

In the late 1960s, Merritt College had a 1401 and a 1620.
Some say that Peralta Community College District's decision to move 
Merritt College up into the suburban hills in 1972? was in order to pull 
the campus out from under the Panthers.  In early 1980s, Merritt College 
had a DEC with a rarely working third party drive, and then switched to 
5150s in 1983.  I taught up on the hill for 20 years, starting in 1983 
(total of more than 30 years teaching in the PCCD system)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Rod Smallwood]

I re-read  the artical and backplane is what he called it. At least he 
called the wirewrap version that.
I went back to my engineer days and tried to think what I would have 
called it.


Bus board or main interconnect is all I can  think of.

Rod



On 15/10/2015 18:18, Fred Cisin wrote:
Wire wrapped motherboard and only one in existance ! Sheesh what a 
risk.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote:
minor quibble: I doubt they called it a "motherboard" in that time 
frame.

More likely "backplane".


Wasn't the B5900 from 1980?
"Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it.
Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane".

"The earliest known reference to motherboard, the main circuit board 
of a personal computer, comes from a 1971 article in the British 
journal Electrical and Electronics Abstracts, according to the Oxford 
English Dictionary. The article refers to one daughterboard mounted 
vertically on a computer size motherboard."
from: 
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/01/the-mother-of-all-boards.html



Google is not my friend today.  I'm encountering multiple variants of 
"in the 1980s and 1990s, it became popular to put peripheral 
controllers on the board", red and blue text overlayed on a full color 
picture, "IBM PC was the first motherboard" (especially amusing since 
it was similar form factor and basic layout as Apple][)


S100 backplane was often called a "motherboard".
By 1978, the Apple ][ main board was called a "motherboard" in the 
industry, although IIRC, Apple preferred to call it a "logic board".


IBM explicitly refused to call it a "motherboard" on the 5150. 
According to an unreliable source (my late uncle working there at the 
time), that was due to horrified shock at TV coverage of Black Panther 
speeches at Merritt College in Oakland in the late 1960s (when I had 
attended) and on, that had very extensive use of the word 
"MOTHERFUCKER", shortened to "MOTHER__" on TV.  "UP AGAINST THE WALL 
MOTHER__!"  To avoid association,

IBM refused to call it a "motherboard".

In the late 1960s, Merritt College had a 1401 and a 1620.
Some say that Peralta Community College District's decision to move 
Merritt College up into the suburban hills in 1972? was in order to 
pull the campus out from under the Panthers.  In early 1980s, Merritt 
College had a DEC with a rarely working third party drive, and then 
switched to 5150s in 1983.  I taught up on the hill for 20 years, 
starting in 1983 (total of more than 30 years teaching in the PCCD 
system)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com


--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

8-sector decpacks?

[Josh Dersch]

Does anyone have any idea what drive/system an 8-sector decpack would have been 
used with?  We have a few of them on our shelves at the LCM and I can't find 
any reference that mentions 8-sector packs.  (Just the usual 12 and 16-sector 
ones.)

They're clearly labeled "decpack 1100 BPI - 8" and the sector ring marks out 
eight sectors.  These are RK05 (IBM 2315) style packs.

Thanks,
Josh

Sr. Vintage Software Engineer
Living Computer Museum
www.livingcomputermuseum.org

RE: DG S/130 progress

[Jay West]

Henk wrote...
--
On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge has
a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw.
--
Yep, I got the installation instructions in the manual, which are
wonderfully detailed WRT rackmounting. You may not have noticed this
though If you are mounting the 6125 anywhere except the very top of the
rack - no problem. However, if you are mounting it right at the very top you
will want to know something that the manual isn't clear on. Those pins you
mention above - they look like they are threaded and you just screw them
into the hinge from the top. But if you look very closely, you'll see that
the pins can be screwed into the hinges *from the bottom* until they stick
out of the top the right way. You won't get it mounted in the very top of a
rack unless you do it that way (depending on your rack of course).

--
As far as I know, there is one pin header on the horizontal circuit board
for connection to the controller and one cable on the vertical board that
goes to the PSU. The other side of the PSU (rear in the rack) has the mains
power cable (cannot be detached).
--
Yep, they are different then. The desktop power supply itself is identical
but the metalwork is not. In addition, the power cord is removable on the
desktop version. I will have to make "non-standard adjustments" for that :|

--
It is heavy, I estimate between 40 and 50 kilo. Not good for your back, but
when you're on your own (unloading the van) ...
--
Tell me about it. After I mounted the 6125 I noticed the blue cover door
wouldn't open all the way due to clearance on the left front of the rack.
Further scrutiny revealed that $previous_owner mounted the two front
vertical rails with a slant. The front vertical rails are flush with the
front of the rack at the bottom, but at the top they are back about 1/2
inch. So today I am unracking everything in the rack, adjusting the two
front vertical rails, and then re-racking everything. What a major pain. My
fault though - I should have noticed this before I got all the way to the
top in putting stuff in the rack.

J

RE: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[tony duell]

> "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it.
> Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane".

I generally use the term 'motherboard' for the sort of thing you find in an 
IBM5150 or Apple ][ -- that is a board with a lot of electronics on it and the
edge connectors for daughterboards (I/O cards, etc) whereas I use the term
'backplane' for what I have in a PDP11 or PERQ, etc, just connectors wired 
together
(maybe with some simple logic) and almost everything on plug-in boards.

Incidentally, the HP150 has the procrssor and video boards, along with 2 
optional
I/O boards going in from the rear of the case and plugging into a PCB of 
connectors
(and IIRC a simple printer interface). Due to its position HP call it the 
'frontplane'. I have
never seen that term used anywhere else (I assume it's also applicable to the 
HP120
but I have never seen any technical info for that machine).

-tony

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Josh Dersch]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:38 AM, tony duell 
wrote:

> > "Motherboard" was around then, although Burroughs might not have used it.
> > Burroughs might very well have been more inclined to call it "backplane".
>
> I generally use the term 'motherboard' for the sort of thing you find in an
> IBM5150 or Apple ][ -- that is a board with a lot of electronics on it and
> the
> edge connectors for daughterboards (I/O cards, etc) whereas I use the term
> 'backplane' for what I have in a PDP11 or PERQ, etc, just connectors wired
> together
> (maybe with some simple logic) and almost everything on plug-in boards.
>
> Incidentally, the HP150 has the procrssor and video boards, along with 2
> optional
> I/O boards going in from the rear of the case and plugging into a PCB of
> connectors
> (and IIRC a simple printer interface). Due to its position HP call it the
> 'frontplane'. I have
> never seen that term used anywhere else (I assume it's also applicable to
> the HP120
> but I have never seen any technical info for that machine).
>

The documentation for the AMT DAP 600 I have refers to a "midplane," so
named because it's in the center of the machine, with boards plugged into
both sides...

- Josh



>
> -tony
>

Re: 8-sector decpacks?

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Josh Dersch  
> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what drive/system an 8-sector decpack would have 
> been used with?  We have a few of them on our shelves at the LCM and I can't 
> find any reference that mentions 8-sector packs.  (Just the usual 12 and 
> 16-sector ones.)
> 
> They're clearly labeled "decpack 1100 BPI - 8" and the sector ring marks out 
> eight sectors.  These are RK05 (IBM 2315) style packs.

Half density?  I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density.  
RK02?  Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. RP03?

The peripherals handbook says that the RK05 recording density is about 2000 
bpi, so 8 sectors would be 256 12-bit words at half density, i.e., half the 
sector slots of the regular PDP8 pack.

paul

Anyone know of Sun Voyager bags for sale?

[ethan]

Anyone know of any of the padded cases for Sun Voyagers that would be for 
sale?


(Sun Microsystems portable sparcstation)

--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: DG S/130 progress

[Henk Gooijen]

Jay wrote...
--

Henk wrote...
--
On the right vertical post of the rack you mount two hinges. Each hinge 
has

a pin that simply goes through a hole of the vertical post, and one screw.

--
Yep, I got the installation instructions in the manual, which are
wonderfully detailed WRT rackmounting. You may not have noticed this
though If you are mounting the 6125 anywhere except the very top of the
rack - no problem. However, if you are mounting it right at the very top 
you

will want to know something that the manual isn't clear on. Those pins you
mention above - they look like they are threaded and you just screw them
into the hinge from the top. But if you look very closely, you'll see that
the pins can be screwed into the hinges *from the bottom* until they stick
out of the top the right way. You won't get it mounted in the very top of a
rack unless you do it that way (depending on your rack of course).


Yup, I mounted the 6125 in the top of the rack. The thought indeed did not
occur that you can screw the pin in the metal hinge from the *bottom* side.
I removed the top plastic part with the Data General text (top cover) to
get the clearance space needed to hang the drive on the pins. If you have
a helping hand you can leave the top cover installed. Make sure that the
other guy is holding the drive while *you* screw the pins in :-)
Either way, you have to hang the tape drive on th pins while it is at 90
degrees with the front of the rack (fully "opened" position).


--
It is heavy, I estimate between 40 and 50 kilo. Not good for your back,
but when you're on your own (unloading the van) ...
--

Tell me about it. After I mounted the 6125 I noticed the blue cover door
wouldn't open all the way due to clearance on the left front of the rack.
Further scrutiny revealed that $previous_owner mounted the two front
vertical rails with a slant. The front vertical rails are flush with the
front of the rack at the bottom, but at the top they are back about 1/2
inch. So today I am unracking everything in the rack, adjusting the two
front vertical rails, and then re-racking everything. What a major pain.
My fault though - I should have noticed this before I got all the way to
the top in putting stuff in the rack.


Ughh, that's no fun!  If my rack was like that, I would not have noticed
that either. You simply don't expect that, especially because this is
not possible with DEC (or HP) racks. They are either riveted or welded.

Enjoy the disassembly/assembly, a great moment for many pictures :-)
- Henk 

RE: 8-sector decpacks?

[tony duell]

> Half density?  I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density.  
> RK02?  Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. > RP03?

No, you're right. The RK02 is the low-density drive (actually a Diablo model 
30), the RK03 being the high 
density model. The RK05 has the same bit density (heck the same format) as the 
RK03.

There was an RK01 I beleive. I forget who made that (it wasn't DEC, if you see 
what I mean), but I could
believe thst was low density too.

-tony

Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[ben]

.R ETOS
ETOS V5B
OPTION?T

?LOGIN PLEASE
!LOGIN
ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M.  ON TUE 01-JAN-75
ACCOUNT? 0,4
PASSWORD?
JOB  3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE  0

WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM
TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE

.^VS
!ASSIGN DK1
!CONT

.^VS
!LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0
!CONT

.DIR CHN5:

  01-JAN-75

ABSLDR.SV   6 04-JAN-73
CCL   .SV  31 04-JAN-73
DIRECT.SV   7 04-JAN-73
PIP   .SV  11 04-JAN-73
FOTP  .SV   8 04-JAN-73
...



.DIR
HELP
ADVNT
!DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE!

RE: 8-sector decpacks?

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:00 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: 8-sector decpacks?
>
>
> Half density?  I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density.  
> RK02?  Or am I mixing it up with RP02 vs. > RP03?
>
> No, you're right. The RK02 is the low-density drive (actually a Diablo model 
> 30), the RK03 being the high density model. The RK05 has the same
> bit density (heck the same format) as the RK03.
>
>
> There was an RK01 I beleive. I forget who made that (it wasn't DEC, if you 
> see what I mean), but I could believe thst was low density too.
>
> -tony

That seems probable; the major reference I found was this:

http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/dec.disks

Which suggests that the RK02 is 12 or 16-sector; but it could be in error.  
(I've verified via DEC peripheral handbooks that, at least on the -11, the RK02 
used 12-sector packs.  I haven't yet found a handbook for the 8/I that covers 
the RK02 -- the one I have on my desk here is from 1972 and only talks about 
the RK01, so I guess it's a bit too early.  Given the short life of the RK02, 
it may be tough to find the right one :).

(The RK01 is 16-sector on the 8/I, FWIW.)

- Josh

RE: DG S/130 progress

[Jay West]

Henk wrote...
-
Yup, I mounted the 6125 in the top of the rack. The thought indeed did not
occur that you can screw the pin in the metal hinge from the *bottom* side.
I removed the top plastic part with the Data General text (top cover) to get
the clearance space needed to hang the drive on the pins. If you have a
helping hand you can leave the top cover installed. Make sure that the other
guy is holding the drive while *you* screw the pins in :-) Either way, you
have to hang the tape drive on th pins while it is at 90 degrees with the
front of the rack (fully "opened" position).
-
As I said, it depends on the rack. I have two styles of DG rack. On one of
them, you can mount the tape unit in the very top position by putting the
top hinge pin in from the top. But on the other style of rack, it is not
possible at all unless you put the pin into the hinge from the bottom. The
two racks have slightly different metalwork at the top. I really wanted my
6125 at the very top and found it couldn't be done - then I happened to
notice that in the bottom of the pins there is a hex indentation for an
allen wrench so you CAN screw them in from the bottom :)

-
Ughh, that's no fun!  If my rack was like that, I would not have noticed
that either. You simply don't expect that, especially because this is not
possible with DEC (or HP) racks. They are either riveted or welded.
-
It was a silly mistake, I know better, and just didn't pay attention. I was
in too much of a rush to get a rack that was top to bottom that gorgeous
blue color ;) I now have the two front vertical posts flush with the front
all the way up the rack. Now I have to re-adjust all the upper rails/slides
to match, and then the re-racking begins. None of it is THAT much trouble
really, except the 6125 is kind of a bit** to mount ;) Maybe it's just cause
I'm so short lol

-
Enjoy the disassembly/assembly, a great moment for many pictures :-)
-
Yeah, it would be... but I'm in a rush to get a rack that is top to bottom
that gorgeous blue color *grin*

J 

Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Dennis Boone]

 > I doubt it.  They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to
 > open the sleeve to punch one.

A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some
years ago.  They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't require
opening the sleeve.  But they're for 5.25".

De

nut bars? ;)

[Jay West]

Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't find
this.

Is there a modern source of nut bars that one could order with specific
thread size and # of holes (NEMA pattern)? Yeah, I know I'm being OCD and
can just use individual nuts. But after you keep losing a handful of
standard nuts in the bottom of the rack, I see why they used nut bars. In
some cases, nut bars are very preferable to cage/clipon nuts.

J

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote:

... In
some cases, nut bars are very preferable...



I think we have plenty of those around here
:D

--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: Decmate Owner's Guide (or equivalent experience)

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Oct-14, at 3:40 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Does anyone have a electronic copy of the original Decmate Owner’s Guide 
> (AA-K330C-TA) that they could share?
> 
> Alternatively, can anyone describe what can be accomplished (if anything) 
> from the initial “Setup” prompt on a VT278 *without* any disks attached?
> 
> The situation is that Brent and I are trying to resurrect a Decmate — we’ve 
> plugged in a VT100 keyboard (Thanks, Bill!):
> 
> - it boots to the “Setup” prompt with the flashing cursor.  
> - the “Power” light on the rear of the unit is steady and the “CPU OK” light 
> is blinking. 
> - the keyboard lights indicate “online"
> - pressing ‘2’ or ‘PF3’ cause “Setup” to disappear. ‘3’ seems to cause it to 
> perform some self-test like procedure. 
> - most keys cause keyclicks, but ‘space’, ‘M’, and ‘/' don’t. With an 
> oscilloscope, we can see data from the keyboard being sent for the “silent” 
> keys, however.
> 
> Without disks, what else should we able to do?
> 
> Eventually, we’d like to find or construct some solution for mass storage, 
> but we’re still at the point of checking out the VT278 itself. 

Whoops, my mistake, and apology: that should have been Thanks Jack (Rubin).

Found some more info about SETUP mode in the Decmate System Architecture 
manual. Between the idiosyncrasies, I'm beginning to wonder if there's 
something funny going on in the keyboard scanning sequence or keyboard 
management from the 278, we'll have to investigate the keyboard communication 
in more detail.

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 09:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote:

you can lose your lovers with a Cray


multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a
micro can lose your marriage.


If you lose a lover in "Bubbles", I suspect that you're also looking at 
a lengthy prison term.


--Chuck

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Wasn't the B5900 from 1980?

Hmm.  I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900".

mcl

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Oct-14, at 11:52 AM, Brad wrote:
> I appreciate the advice and I'll keep my eyes out.  Vancouver hasn't really 
> been a great place to find these kinds of things; I tend to be totally 
> reliant on ebay, and as mentioned US shipping up to here has skyrocketed (not 
> to mention our CDN dollar tanking).  I guess mostly because Vancouver is 
> relatively young and 40-50 years ago would not have been large enough to have 
> a lot of this kind of thing around.  I never see anything that vintage in our 
> classifieds/craigs/buysell/etc.

Vancouver region:

Two years ago Rob and I got two 28s at the radio museum going as well as a 33.
Getting the 28s functioning was in preparation for a movie shoot.
The 33 was, well, it's a 33 and we're working on these things. 
Still have a 15 and a Lorenz (15-class knock off) to work on when I can get 
back to major projects.

In 1976 when I was working with my dad's friend on building his IMSAI, he had a 
plastic-wrapped 33-ASR
waiting in a corner for the computer to be ready. I suspect it was a 
refurbished unit, but when the plastic
came off it looked as good as new. And yes, when the IMSAI was ready we 
proceeded to toggle in the bootstrap,
load MS BASIC via the 33 paper tape reader, and type in a BASIC program.

Vancouver was a smaller city back in the 70s but I think teletypes were as 
dense here as they were anywhere.
Being somewhat remote but a major port city and center for transportation and 
shipping, communications was
important - there may have been more teletypes here than typical.

Currently, I know of two other 28s in the Vancouver region (not meaning to 
imply any of them are available though).

The radio museum threw out a 35-ASR 15 years ago. There may have been another 1 
or 2 that were discarded.
Yup, hindsight is great.

Re: nut bars? ;)

[geneb]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:


On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote:

... In
some cases, nut bars are very preferable...



I think we have plenty of those around here


*bars*, not *bags*! :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Fred Cisin]

Wasn't the B5900 from 1980?

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Mark Linimon wrote:

Hmm.  I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900".


Yeah, that would make a difference.
Wikipedia (not necessarily reliable) lists the B5500 at 1964,
and the B5900 in 1980.

OED researchers found published use of "motherboard" in 1971, but no idea 
how long it had been used as a term before that written reference.  So, 
B5500 could be before "motherboard" was a term.  Although, I remember a 
mention of it in conversation in 1967.
Much like the common usage of "bug" LONG before Grace Hopper used the 
common term in a log, "inventing the term".

OTOH, renaming "Altair Bus" to "S100" happened over a few months.

Some used "motherboard" to refer to a simple set of multiple connectors, 
such as S100,

whereas some will only use it if it has significant circuitry on it,
not just termination.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Geoffrey Oltmans]

IIRC, IBM liked to refer to them as planar boards...

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Mark Linimon  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:18:46AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > Wasn't the B5900 from 1980?
>
> Hmm.  I guess my mind put "B5500" for "B5900".
>
> mcl
>

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 10/15/2015 04:01 PM, geneb wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:


On 10/15/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote:

... In
some cases, nut bars are very preferable...



I think we have plenty of those around here


*bars*, not *bags*! :)



No, it's "...*bars*, _and_ *bags*..." :P


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: Motherboard (Was: The Burroughs B5900 and E-Mode

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:

IIRC, IBM liked to refer to them as planar boards...


That's right.  I explained one account of WHY IBM refused to call it a 
"motherboard".

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Dennis Boone]

 > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't
 > find this.

It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap
about this terminology. :)

Try "threaded rail".

De

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Chris Elmquist]

On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 05:57PM +0100), Dave Wade wrote:
> 
> I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot teletypes 
> were used with early computers. 
> Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809 based 
> system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system.

Altair 680 (M6800 based) had one version of the PROM that worked with
5-level BAUDOT teletypes and the more common version that worked with
7-level ASCII teletypes such as the M33.

-- 
Chris Elmquist NØJCF

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Chris Elmquist]

On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 04:16PM -0400), Dennis Boone wrote:
>  > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't
>  > find this.
> 
> It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap
> about this terminology. :)

http://www.naturevalley.com/nut-bars/

-- 
Chris Elmquist

RE: nut bars? ;)

[Jay West]

HAH!

The DG documentation does call them "Nut Bars" :P

"threaded rail" seems to be something different according to google, but it
yields "threaded insert" which is close if not exact. Still googling...
Thanks!

J

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis
Boone
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:16 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: nut bars? ;)

 > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't  >
find this.

It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap
about this terminology. :)

Try "threaded rail".

De

Contents of DEC 8" floppies

[Charles]

I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I have an 
RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might be of 
interest to someone before I wipe them.
They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they are 
AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE.


I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the 
message.
Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't have a 
VAX so I can't read them.

Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks?

thanks
Charles

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Rod Smallwood]

With out going into detail and whilst working in Germany in 1969 I 
pulled a few Saturday night operator shifts for cash in hand on a big 
Nixdorf system.

Just to help out a friend who did not like being there on her own.
The Computer room was air conditioned and filtered down to microns.

Being Germany it was kept clinically clean and a bit on the cool side.
It took us a while to find a nice warm air outlet round the back of a 
row of tape drives.
A quick trip to the medical room to borrow some blankets and we were all 
set.

Now we would not be cold wating for a job to run.

Contrary to your remaks I did not  lose a lover.

Rod





On 15/10/2015 20:31, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 10/15/2015 09:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Wed, 14 Oct 2015, ben wrote:

you can lose your lovers with a Cray


multiples of any size computer, or evan a single one larger than a
micro can lose your marriage.


If you lose a lover in "Bubbles", I suspect that you're also looking 
at a lengthy prison term.


--Chuck



--
Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Jay Jaeger]

So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one would need the 
jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at 1/2 spacing.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 15, 2015, at 13:36, Dennis Boone  wrote:

>> I doubt it.  They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to
>> open the sleeve to punch one.
> 
> A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some
> years ago.  They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't require
> opening the sleeve.  But they're for 5.25".
> 
> De

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Andrew Burton]

- Original Message - 
From: "Evan Koblentz" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation


>
> > I also noticed that the outer circumference (outer most part of the
logo) doesn't appear to be a true circle, but more polygonal instead!
(look*really*  carefully) Was is created using some 3d rendering software???
>
> Good eye! Yes, we used a 3D CAD program, so that someday we could make
> models of the logo.
>

Ahhh, now that is a neat idea :)


Regards,
Andrew Burton
aliensrcoo...@yahoo.co.uk
www.aliensrcooluk.com

Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies

[Jay Jaeger]

I'd expect you could still read them sector by sector - an RX01 is
standard single density format.

Regardless, you can find software to image them here:

http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/

In particular:

http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/software/dumprest.tar.gz

(I had my own version of that sort of thing that used XMODEM protocol -
I need to look at the above myself to see if I like it better).

VAX PSI is software for packet switched networks (e.g. X.25).  I don't
have any use for that software myself.

JRJ

On 10/15/2015 3:38 PM, Charles wrote:
> I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I have
> an RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might be of
> interest to someone before I wipe them.
> They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they are
> AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE.
> 
> I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the
> message.
> Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't
> have a VAX so I can't read them.
> Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks?
> 
> thanks
> Charles
> 
> 
> 

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:


Contrary to your remaks I did not  lose a lover.


A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10  (liquid nitrogen) would be equally 
inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one.


I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix 
sometime in the early 70s.  On the test floor, I explored e water-cooled 
system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic 
"shell".


I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics.

--Chuck

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[William Donzelli]

> I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics.

Yeah, I get excited about liquid cooled mainframes, too.

--
Will

Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies

[Antonio Carlini]

On 15/10/15 21:38, Charles wrote:
I bought a set of five DEC RX01 8" floppies (for the disks, since I 
have an RX01 hooked up to my PDP-8/A) but I thought the contents might 
be of interest to someone before I wipe them.
They are labeled VAX PSI V3.0 1/5 thru 5/5, (c) 1984. In order they 
are AS-L154G-BE, AS-L155G-BE, AS-L156G-BE, AS-DC36B-BE, AS-DK35A-BE.


I did email Al Kossow about archiving but maybe he didn't receive the 
message.
Anyhow, if anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I don't 
have a VAX so I can't read them.

Perhaps we can trade for blank SSSD disks?


I'm in the UK so trading probably isn't worth it.

I used to work in the group that produced those (well, wrote the 
software, someone else cut the media, I guess).


I have a set of PSI floppies of roughly that era but mine are RX50s (I 
think: they're in the attic somewhere right now ...).


I don't think I've ever seen PSI software on 8" floppies before.

If you do manage to image them, I'd certainly be interested in a copy.

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: Opening a DECserver 90M External PSU

[Peter Coghlan]

Back in April, I wrote:
> Robert Jarratt wrote:
> >
> > One of my DECserver 90M PSUs got dropped and stopped working as a result,
> > possibly because it got pulled by the cable. That sounds like the kind of
> > damage that might be repairable. I tried to open the enclosure and I found a
> > hole under one of the labels, expecting it to be a screw hole, but it isn't.
> > I am guessing you just have to pry the halves apart, but without knowing
> > where the clips are inside it is easy just to break the thing.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Does anyone know how you open these PSUs?
> >
>
> As far as I recall, there are no clips - it is glued all the way around.
>
> Mine (actaully a 90TL, with H7082-AB PSU) failed too.  Using a lot of 
> patience,
> I pried it open without too much damage, fixed it (a capacitor in the startup
> circuit IIRC) and glued it back together.  The end result was only slightly
> rough looking and would probably have been better with a more suitable glue.
> The thing has a very Lego-like quality about it.
>
> It failed again some time later and I haven't had the enthusiasm to break it
> open again since.
>

I finally worked up the enthusiasm.  It was easy to open this time as the glue
I used to put it back together last time was not so good.  While I was measuring
voltages on the input side, out of the corner of my eye I noticed the LEDs on
the front of the terminal server lighting up briefly.  I found that I could get
them to light up consistently by pressing a meter probe on one of the legs of
the chopper transformer and after deploying the magnifying glass, I found a tiny
crack in the print leading to it.

That was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be.  I hope it lasts a bit
longer this time though.

Now I find that the privileged password is not what I thought it is...

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[drlegendre .]

Brad,

Sounds like another nice freebie M15 just popped up on the greenkeys list..
though it's stateside, and once again in St. Louis!

Might not help you, other than to illustrate the fact that these things
+do+ come up. And this is just how I came across my personal teleprinting
treasure chest.. ;-)

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:

> On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 05:57PM +0100), Dave Wade wrote:
> >
> > I think you would be surprised to know that M15 and other Baudot
> teletypes were used with early computers.
> > Not sure about the Altair but I certainly used a Creed 7B with my 6809
> based system. Again no paper tape, I had an Audio tape system.
>
> Altair 680 (M6800 based) had one version of the PROM that worked with
> 5-level BAUDOT teletypes and the more common version that worked with
> 7-level ASCII teletypes such as the M33.
>
> --
> Chris Elmquist NØJCF
>
>

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Dale H. Cook]

At 07:59 PM 10/15/2015, drlegendre . wrote:

>Sounds like another nice freebie M15 just popped up on the greenkeys list..
>though it's stateside, and once again in St. Louis!

There ought to be plenty of the 15-RO units kicking around in the States. Time 
was when every almost radio station in the country had one (or sometimes two in 
larger markets) for AP or UPI. I have an ex-UPI 15-RO that I would like to get 
rid of. I once thought of restoring it, but I have too many other more useful 
things awaiting restoration.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 

RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brad]

So you've shipped these before?  What sort of cost is typical around the US?

My problem is just finding one at this point.

Also separate question to others:  I want to stay away from the Baudot 
machines, right?  (ie. Model 28, etc)

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 12:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

You can ship these in a box if you detach the pedestal and put it on its side, 
making sure the main unit is well padded and there is a weight balance to the 
box, as you never know from what angle the box will sit/fall/land/be carried.  
I shrink wrap the main TTY to ensure it stays secure, then wrap in layers of 
bubble wrap and foam.  I have shipped five or six that way.  You can also use 
two boxes.  It's very easy to re-attach the main unit from the pedestal, many 
have a reader motor in the pedestal, but you just unscrew it.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:28 PM, ben  wrote:

> On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote:
>
>> How heavy are these things?  They look like solid steel in pictures.
>> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here 
>> in Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive.
>>
>
> Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last 
> few years.
> It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for 
> overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you 
> still need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse.
> Ben.
> * I think books still send that way.
>
>
>
>


--
Bill
-
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15

RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brad]

I would imagine a teletype would be way over USPS' maximum weight limit
anyway.  

Something happened with USPS 2 years ago or so where prices just went
through the roof.  Even on small stuff it was ridiculous, at least, to
Canada.  I've been reluctant to use them since.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 12:29 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Brad wrote:
> How heavy are these things?  They look like solid steel in pictures.
> That's one of the things that presents a big problem for me up here in 
> Canada... shipping from the US has gotten outrageously expensive.

Well for big things shipping I think it is about the same for the last few
years.
It is the US mail that is strange ... $3.00* for 3 weeks or $60 for
overnight. I expect still cheaper shipping than when new. Note you still
need a truck to get from the shippers warehouse.
Ben.
* I think books still send that way.



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.6172 / Virus Database: 4447/10805 - Release Date: 10/12/15

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[ben]

On 10/15/2015 7:25 PM, Brad wrote:

So you've shipped these before?  What sort of cost is typical around
the US?

My problem is just finding one at this point.

Also separate question to others:  I want to stay away from the
Baudot machines, right?  (ie. Model 28, etc)


Yes, leave those for relay computers.
Ben.

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Jon Elson]

On 10/15/2015 03:36 PM, Jay West wrote:

HAH!

The DG documentation does call them "Nut Bars" :P

"threaded rail" seems to be something different according to google, but it
yields "threaded insert" which is close if not exact. Still googling...

There were some systems, like Vector configurable card cages 
and VME systems that had extruded rails with nuts that could 
slide to where you wanted them.  These had real nuts (either 
hex or square) slipped into the rails.  Boards or connectors 
could be screwed into the nuts.  Threaded rail sounds to me 
like the threads are permanently drilled and tapped to 
specific positions in the rail.


Jon

RE: nut bars? ;)

[Cindy Croxton]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 8:57 PM
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts
Subject: Re: nut bars? ;)

Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps?
http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf
They call them "bar nuts" :-)

Cindy



---
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Re: PDP8 / ETOS

[Paul Anderson]

I loaned a list member several packs with ETOS on them. They need to be
cleaned and inspected before they can be read.

I know he is busy and going to be for a while.  If anyone needs more info,
feel free to contact me off list.

Paul

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:03 PM, ben  wrote:

>
> .R ETOS
>> ETOS V5B
>> OPTION?T
>>
>> ?LOGIN PLEASE
>> !LOGIN
>> ETOS V5B AT 00:00:00 A.M.  ON TUE 01-JAN-75
>> ACCOUNT? 0,4
>> PASSWORD?
>> JOB  3 LOGGED IN ON CONSOLE  0
>>
>> WELCOME TO DAVID GESSWEIN'S ETOS SYSTEM
>> TYPE HELP TO OBTAIN ASSISTANCE
>>
>> .^VS
>> !ASSIGN DK1
>> !CONT
>>
>> .^VS
>> !LOOKUP 5=DK1:,0
>> !CONT
>>
>> .DIR CHN5:
>>
>>   01-JAN-75
>>
>> ABSLDR.SV   6 04-JAN-73
>> CCL   .SV  31 04-JAN-73
>> DIRECT.SV   7 04-JAN-73
>> PIP   .SV  11 04-JAN-73
>> FOTP  .SV   8 04-JAN-73
>> ...
>>
>>
> .DIR
> HELP
> ADVNT
> !DARN THING DON"T TIME SHARE!
>
>

Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 02:19 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one
would need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at
1/2 spacing.



A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member
some years ago.  They work through the window in the sleeve, so
don't require opening the sleeve.  But they're for 5.25".


If this was my circus,  I'd machine a fixture consisting of a plate with 
the 33 sector/index holes precision-drilled and a top plate with the 
same holes and a hub for the floppy to fit over.  Use the index hole to 
align the thing and then, using a sharpened punch, go around the entire 
32-hole circuit.  Presto--a pefectly-punched disk.


The more elite may want to punch the holes with a laser.  In either 
case, the cookie has to come out of the envelope, but that's usually not 
much of a problem.


Or go over to vintage-computer.com.  There's a fella there who's using 
an MCU to generate the sector pulses for 5.25" floppies.


--Chuck

Re: HP 1663A Logic Analyzer keyboard

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/14/2015 05:23 PM, Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare) wrote:

ons 2015-10-14 klockan 13:57 -0700 skrev Ian Finder:



It seems to exist a PS/2 (system)-to-HIL (keyboard/mouse) for those who
likes their old HIL keyboards.

OR have sw which requires the identity HIL dongle.


Absent everything else, reading through the HP HIL technical document, 
it seems as if interfacing to other devices using a not-very-powerful 
MCU wouldn't be beyond the range of practicality.  15-bit async serial 
words, 5 volt logic--all seems to be pretty straightforward.


Is the reason that no one appears to be doing this because HP-HIL 
devices (and hosts) are relatively uncommon?


--Chuck

FOUND RE: nut bars? ;)

[Jay West]

Cindy wrote...
-
Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps?
http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf
They call them "bar nuts" :-)
-

BINGO! That's the ones :) Thanks Cindy!!

Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Chris Elmquist]

I resemble that remark ;-)

Indeed, we did not do anything for 8"

Chris


On October 15, 2015 1:36:50 PM CDT, Dennis Boone  wrote:
>> I doubt it.  They need to be very accurate, and one would not want to
> > open the sleeve to punch one.
>
>A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member some
>years ago.  They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't
>require
>opening the sleeve.  But they're for 5.25".
>
>De

-- 
Chris Elmquist

RE: FOUND RE: nut bars? ;)

[Cindy Croxton]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 9:28 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: FOUND RE: nut bars? ;)

Cindy wrote...
-
Are the one you want made by Accuride perhaps?
http://www.accuride.com/media/1975/rackmountaccessories_pdf_3.pdf
They call them "bar nuts" :-)
-

BINGO! That's the ones :) Thanks Cindy!!

You are very welcome.  They are actually made by many different companies,
and all seem to have different specs!
See also:
http://www.jonathanengr.com/custom-bracketry-c-113.html
http://www.ecscase.com/rackmount
http://www.newark.com/general-devices/ca8056-06-0020/bar-nut/dp/33K1263?ost=
nut&categoryId=80004825

and many others.

Cindy


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Re: 8" hard sector (Was DG S/130 status)

[Chris Elmquist]

The punch aligns with the index hole since we are starting with soft-sector 
media and that's the only hole we have.  Then it "clamps" the media and you 
rotate the punch and the media together to align each sector hole with a hole 
in the template part of the punch and slam the punch pin through.  It's harder 
to put in words than it is to do.

Generally, they worked pretty well.  The original idea was Dwight's and I had a 
friend with precision machine shop build them from aluminum and delrin.

Some users complained about "hanging chads" as the punch pin sometimes didn't 
cut the media cleanly but this was fairly rare.

Chris

On October 15, 2015 4:19:24 PM CDT, Jay Jaeger  wrote:
>So, hole by hole - what about the extra hole for the index - one would
>need the jig to have an extra hole for the punch for that at 1/2
>spacing.
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>On Oct 15, 2015, at 13:36, Dennis Boone  wrote:
>
>>> I doubt it.  They need to be very accurate, and one would not want
>to
>>> open the sleeve to punch one.
>> 
>> A set of 10- and 16-hole punching jigs were done by a list member
>some
>> years ago.  They work through the window in the sleeve, so don't
>require
>> opening the sleeve.  But they're for 5.25".
>> 
>> De

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Chris Elmquist]

However, apparently the comfy cushions of the Cray were not so inhospitable to 
one pair of mammals that consummated their relationship on them in a certain MN 
data center during one late night shift.  There _IS_ a story...

Chris


On October 15, 2015 4:53:15 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>
>> Contrary to your remaks I did not  lose a lover.
>
>A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10  (liquid nitrogen) would be equally 
>inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one.
>
>I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix 
>sometime in the early 70s.  On the test floor, I explored e
>water-cooled 
>system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic 
>"shell".
>
>I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics.
>
>--Chuck

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation

[Chris Elmquist]

Sorry, _the_ story is about Cray 1 which had upholstered seats.  Cray 2 was not 
as comfortable.

On October 15, 2015 10:06:43 PM CDT, Chris Elmquist  wrote:
>However, apparently the comfy cushions of the Cray were not so
>inhospitable to one pair of mammals that consummated their relationship
>on them in a certain MN data center during one late night shift.  There
>_IS_ a story...
>
>Chris
>
>
>On October 15, 2015 4:53:15 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis 
>wrote:
>>On 10/15/2015 02:09 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>
>>> Contrary to your remaks I did not  lose a lover.
>>
>>A Cray 2 ("bubbles") or an ETA-10  (liquid nitrogen) would be equally 
>>inhospitable to any mammal trying to live in one.
>>
>>I recall visiting the Honeywell (used to be GE) plant in Phoenix 
>>sometime in the early 70s.  On the test floor, I explored e
>>water-cooled 
>>system residing in a series of open racks placed within a cosmetic 
>>"shell".
>>
>>I could have easily pitched a tent amount the electronics.
>>
>>--Chuck

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: 8-sector decpacks?

[John Wilson]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 01:58:10PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
>Half density?  I vaguely remember an RK05 style drive at half the density.
>RK02?

Yes, RK02.  But I could have sworn that it ran half-sized sectors,
not half the number of full-sized sectors.  Could be wrong.

John Wilson
D Bit

Processor card for a HP 9835.

[Paul Berger]

I am searching for a CPU card for a 9835 to replace the dead processor 
in my 9835A, but a CPU card from a 9845B/C would also be ok.  I would 
prefer the 9835 card as it would be a drop in replacement but with a 
9845 card I would have to transfer over the CPU module.  The part number 
on the module should be 5061 3001.


Paul.  phb@gmail.com

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Sean Caron]

I love those Nature Valley bars! Dark Chocolate Cherry is my favorite, LOL.

The "speed rails" (with the latching mechanism to grab the holes in square
post racks) we have nowadays are a real advance in data center equipment
deployment. I can stuff almost an entire rack just working myself in maybe
30, 45 minutes ...

I do not miss the days of the screw-threaded racks and all the nuts and
bolts at all (well, save for the neat computers that sat in said racks) ...
what a pain in the butt ... The only time the nuts and bolts really have to
come out nowadays is when racking switches.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Chris Elmquist  wrote:

> On Thursday (10/15/2015 at 04:16PM -0400), Dennis Boone wrote:
> >  > Perhaps my google skills are challenged (probably so), but I can't
> >  > find this.
> >
> > It is costing me in ways too vast and indescribable not to give you crap
> > about this terminology. :)
>
> http://www.naturevalley.com/nut-bars/
>
> --
> Chris Elmquist
>
>

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote:
> 
> Also separate question to others:  I want to stay away from the Baudot 
> machines, right?  (ie. Model 28, etc)

I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are.
A brief overview of the technology:

In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes:

Era Common ModelCode
Speed   Common InterfaceMechanism
==  ==  === 
=== 

1)  1930s-40s:  Model 15,19 5-level 
~30-50 bps  60mA current loop   Modified Typewriter Cage

2)  1950s-60s:  Model 285-level 
<=75 bps60mA current loop   Typebox

3)  1960s-70s:  Model 337/8-level/ASCII 110 bps 
20mA current loop   Type Cylinder

These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper fed 
from a roll.
There are other models, variations on the above. 
Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in one 
dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers.

The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as speed 
and code capability followed from the mechanism:

1) Modified Typewriter Cage:
Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms 
arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common typewriter.

2) Typebox:
An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins in 
two 4*8 matrices.
The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a 
selected
symbol pin between a hammer and the paper.

3) Type Cylinder:
A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved up/down 
and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol.

The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is not 
strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes (International 
Telegraphy Alphabet No.2).

The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set.

5-level machines need code conversion of course.

They all need current loop interfaces.

A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so associated 
with computers.

For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are 
potentially awkward.
When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I found 
the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps
- not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common 
9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this I 
have no idea. 
Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is 
not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do.

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:


For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are
potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for
75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using
could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down
in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial
interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud
rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not
difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do.


These were more common in the 8-bit area.  Typically, a Z80 machine 
would involve a CTC and DART, so you could set the CTC count/divide for 
any reasonable rate needed.


This is probably the case also for many current MCUs that feature a 
built-in UART/USART or even designs using the Intel 8251--which often 
would be fed by an 8253/54.   I believe the x86 "microcontrollers" such 
ash the 80186EB or NEC V20/V30 would also qualify.


For PC cards using UARTs with built-in divisors, simply changing the 
oscillator crystal would do the trick--IIRC, this was done with early 
MIDI setups.


--Chuck

Re: nut bars? ;)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 01:53 PM, Sean Caron wrote:

I love those Nature Valley bars! Dark Chocolate Cherry is my
favorite, LOL.

The "speed rails" (with the latching mechanism to grab the holes in
square post racks) we have nowadays are a real advance in data center
equipment deployment. I can stuff almost an entire rack just working
myself in maybe 30, 45 minutes ...


My wife has a fondness for the plain nut bars.  To me, like most granola 
bars, they taste like sawdust.


Cage nuts and clip nuts are still used on rackmount equipment.  Not 
quite as much fumbling involved.


--Chuck

Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Oct-15, at 10:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 10/15/2015 10:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> 
>> For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are
>> potentially awkward. When working on the 28s, which were geared for
>> 75 bps, I lucked out as I found the USB-serial interface I was using
>> could do 75 bps - not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down
>> in the common 9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial
>> interfaces are capable of this I have no idea. Regardless, the baud
>> rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program is not
>> difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do.
> 
> These were more common in the 8-bit area.  Typically, a Z80 machine would 
> involve a CTC and DART, so you could set the CTC count/divide for any 
> reasonable rate needed.
> 
> This is probably the case also for many current MCUs that feature a built-in 
> UART/USART or even designs using the Intel 8251--which often would be fed by 
> an 8253/54.   I believe the x86 "microcontrollers" such ash the 80186EB or 
> NEC V20/V30 would also qualify.
> 
> For PC cards using UARTs with built-in divisors, simply changing the 
> oscillator crystal would do the trick--IIRC, this was done with early MIDI 
> setups.

Sure, if you can hack the hardware or have low-level access to the device you 
can typically set the interval-counter base in accordance with it's 
capabilities (time resolution).

But working from OSX unix system-call level to a plastic-encapsulated 
USB-serial dongle, I was pleasantly surprised that "75" was accepted by the 
IO/device driver. IIRC, it didn't accept 110 or other values outside the 
divide-by-2 sequence, and 75 was the final. So it wasn't a general 
frequency-to-period calculation from a high-res timer. Maybe it was a 
factor-of-two calculation that hit the counter resolution limit at 75, or the 
driver writer actually included 75 in a table lookup.

Re: Contents of DEC 8" floppies

[Mark J. Blair]

I have some unused 3M blank preformatted RX02 diskettes. Would those be usable 
in an RX01 drive?

I don't know what the VAX PSI software is, but I'm guessing it must be for the 
11/780 based on the media type. I have zero use for it, but the thought of 
11/780 bits being returned to the entropy pool disturbs me a bit. :) Can 
anybody fill me in on what these disks likely contain, to help me decide 
whether I might like to trade blank floppies for them?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Brad]

Thanks for this great explanation.  So would anyone doing computing back in
the early 70s have used a 5 level machine?

I saw this one on ebay (or is it two?  Not sure what the deal is here)
It's probably sacked:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-equipment-1-model-28-writer-1-reperforater-
1-50vdc-supply-etc-/121784463105?hash=item1c5aeb6f01:g:UR8AAOSwnDZUJHWs

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hilpert
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 10:07 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

On 2015-Oct-15, at 6:25 PM, Brad wrote:
> 
> Also separate question to others:  I want to stay away from the Baudot
machines, right?  (ie. Model 28, etc)

I'd say it largely depends on what your interests or purposes are.
A brief overview of the technology:

In the main, there were 3 generations of teletypes:

Era Common ModelCode
Speed   Common InterfaceMechanism
==  ==
=== === 

1)  1930s-40s:  Model 15,19 5-level
~30-50 bps  60mA current loop   Modified Typewriter Cage

2)  1950s-60s:  Model 285-level
<=75 bps60mA current loop   Typebox

3)  1960s-70s:  Model 337/8-level/ASCII 110
bps 20mA current loop   Type Cylinder

These are the "page printers" that would type across and down sheet paper
fed from a roll.
There are other models, variations on the above. 
Not included here are the tape printers, simpler mechanisms that printed in
one dimension on a narrow paper tape, ala stock tickers.

The mechanism was the overriding distinction between these generations as
speed and code capability followed from the mechanism:

1) Modified Typewriter Cage:
Decoding bars select 1-of-30-odd symbol/type arms
arrayed in an arc, to swing and hit the paper, just like a common
typewriter.

2) Typebox:
An ~ 1" by 2" metal box holds typeface symbol pins
in two 4*8 matrices.
The box is shifted up/down and left/right to bring a
selected
symbol pin between a hammer and the paper.

3) Type Cylinder:
A cylinder embossed with the typeface is moved
up/down and rotated CW/CCW to select a symbol.

The 5-level devices are commonly referred to as Baudot devices but this is
not strictly correct as they generally use the ITA2/USTTY codes
(International Telegraphy Alphabet No.2).

The speed of Model 28s (at least) was determined by a selected gear-set.

5-level machines need code conversion of course.

They all need current loop interfaces.

A lot of old computer equipment will do 110 bps as the 33s were so
associated with computers.

For working form modern equipment, the bit rates for all of them are
potentially awkward.
When working on the 28s, which were geared for 75 bps, I lucked out as I
found the USB-serial interface I was using could do 75 bps
- not entirely surprising as 75 is a factor of 2 down in the common
9600,1200,300 bps series. How many USB-serial interfaces are capable of this
I have no idea. 
Regardless, the baud rates are slow enough that bit-banging from a program
is not difficult, or an adjustable RC oscillator to a UART should do.

-
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Re: Fair price and ways to find a teletype

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/15/2015 10:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:



But working from OSX unix system-call level to a plastic-encapsulated
USB-serial dongle, I was pleasantly surprised that "75" was accepted
by the IO/device driver. IIRC, it didn't accept 110 or other values
outside the divide-by-2 sequence, and 75 was the final. So it wasn't
a general frequency-to-period calculation from a high-res timer.
Maybe it was a factor-of-two calculation that hit the counter
resolution limit at 75, or the driver writer actually included 75 in
a table lookup.


All USB-to-RS232 bridge chips appear to derive their BRG base from a 
12MHz internal oscillator.  In spite of some folks' high opinion of FTDI 
chips, they're far from the most flexible.  The FT231x, for example, 
bottoms out at 183.1 bps.


On the other hand, the rather "prolific" Prolific PL2303, found on many 
cheap Chinese adapters does, in fact, bottom out at 75 bps with the 
standard driver.  Apparently, custom/nonstandard rates are also 
possible, but the datasheet specifies that Prolific needs to be 
contacted for details.  I suspect that this involves an NDA.


The Nanjing Qin Heng CH340, also found on inexpensive adapters, reached 
down to 50 bps.


The Microchip MCP2200 appears to bottom out at 300 bps as well, but 
there's a configuration utility available (according to the datasheet) 
that allows for non-standard rates.  No mention of the minimum, however


At first blush, it seems that cheap Chinese converters could be your 
friend in this case.


The USB-to-TTL dongles that I pay around $1 for shipped from eBay use 
the PL2303.  Perhaps one could form the basis of a current loop to USB 
interface.


FWIW
Chuck