Wyse 370

[Jan Diegelmann]

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

Wyse 370

[Jan Diegelmann]

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

Re: Wyse 370

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jan Diegelmann" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:43 AM
Subject: Wyse 370


for both serial ports I can configure a terminal 
session at my Wyse 370 ASCII terminal. But I 
don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find 
a manual for this terminal?


Have you tried CTL/Break? 

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[dwight]

I would be surprised if it did 1702s and 2708s. Even 2716s have
a slightly different hardware configuration.
1702s require voltages like 50 volts ( I could be a little off ) and
changing address and data lines over wide voltage ranges.
2708s require multiple rail voltages as well as programming voltages.
2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
on and off.
All the newer chips have a constant programming voltage and
a separate program logic level pin. They can even be read while
the programming voltage is high.
I doubt any would make the special provisions for 1702s. 2708s
are a stretch but if your not doing 2716s it won't be able to
handle 2708 even if it had the extra rail voltages. 
I have a DataIO ( I think a 29B ) and I know it doesn't do 1702s.
In any case, I don't think any of these would be fast enough for
a 21MX boot code. I think these expect it to be faster than 100ns.
Dwight
 
  

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[tony duell]

> 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> on and off.

I must be mis-remembering how I designed my first EPROM programmer. I 
know I could do 2716s (single-rail, not the TI ones) and I thought I always 
applied Vpp and pulsed another pin at TTL levels to program them

IIRC the 27128 was the last one to actually allow the 'dumb' 50ms
programming algorithm. It may well work on larger chips, but 
I never tried it.  That's why I designed my programmer to do
2716s, 2732s, 2764s and 27128s only. Not having another 
programmer I couldn't use a microprocessor or microcontroller
(no way to load the firmware) so I had to do it all in TTL logic. 
Doing the 'intellegent' algorithm in TTL was a bit much ;-)

-tony

Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards

[William Donzelli]

Can we see some pictures?

--
Will

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> Speaking of Control Data:
>
> I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control Data Display Controller (OSG
> 1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 ICs; they're Fairchild with
> (house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and what I assume to be date
> codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.
>
> Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after cutting off the gold fingers
> of course ;-) ?
>
> m

Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards

[Mike Stein]

Not very interesting

Haven't used Picasa in years; hope this works:

https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/CDCCards?authkey=Gv1sRgCLjPy9Diu7fwsgE

- Original Message - 
From: "William Donzelli" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" 

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards



Can we see some pictures?

--
Will

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Mike Stein 
 wrote:

Speaking of Control Data:

I have some boards out of (AFAIR) a Control 
Data Display Controller (OSG
1253/1255), each populated with ~30 10pin TO-5 
ICs; they're Fairchild with
(house?) numbers such as 115, 116, 117, 118 and 
what I assume to be date

codes (all 3 digits, 7xx), e.g. F 115 728.

Any reason why I shouldn't scrap these (after 
cutting off the gold fingers

of course ;-) ?

m 

KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?

[Holm Tiffe]

..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.

Resorc /A give the following informations:

.resorc /a

RT-11XB (S) V05.07  

Booted from DL0:RT11XB
Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
USR is set NOSWAP
TT is set NOQUIET
Indirect file abort level is ERROR
Indirect file nesting depth is 3

PDT 11/150 Processor
FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
KT11 Memory Management Unit
Cache Memory
50 Cycle System Clock

Device I/O time-out support
Multi-terminal support

Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?
Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.

For an M8186 the output is more that what I've expected:

.resorc /a

RT-11XB (S) V05.07  

Booted from DL0:RT11XB
Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.)
USR is set NOSWAP
TT is set NOQUIET
Indirect file abort level is ERROR
Indirect file nesting depth is 3

PDP 11/23 Processor
FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
KT11 Memory Management Unit
50 Cycle System Clock

Device I/O time-out support
Multi-terminal support

Regards,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Holm Tiffe  wrote:
> 
> ..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had
> a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU.
> 
> Resorc /A give the following informations:
> 
> ...
> PDT 11/150 Processor
> FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
> ...
> Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150?

I wonder what it looks for to produce that.

> Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty.

J-11 always has float support.  Without the float chip, it's in CPU microcode; 
with it, that chip offloads the float and it goes faster.

paul

Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards

[Al Kossow]

On 9/10/15 9:23 AM, Mike Stein wrote:

Not very interesting



backside is all-telling.
DD12092 is the part number. DD == "Data Display"
the display division of CDC

they are the form factor that DD used. I picked up a 3291-B display
controller manual from Billy Pettit yesteray, and is uses discrete
cards in the same shape.

cans are Fairchild, circa 72/73

Re: 21MX proms (per request

[Al Kossow]

On 9/10/15 7:14 AM, dwight wrote:

Anyone interested in doing 1702As should look at the schematic
in the MCS4 user manual on bitsavers.org



or just buy a ME1702A from Martin Eberhard

Re: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch
>  wrote:
>> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U 
>> variant)?
>
> I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results...

I checked the box.  The non-DEC manual I thought was Emulex was really
a Codex 9600 baud modem manual.

Now that I think back, ISTR our Emulex manuals were in grey soft-cover
3-ring binders.  I don't recall seeing them after the company closed
shop in 1993.

-ethan

RE: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

[Josh Dersch]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 10:44 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Josh Dersch 
> >  wrote:
> >> Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U 
> >> variant)?
> >
> > I may.  We had a bunch of CS21 boards at Software Results...

> I checked the box.  The non-DEC manual I thought was Emulex was really a 
> Codex 9600 baud modem manual.

> Now that I think back, ISTR our Emulex manuals were in grey soft-cover 3-ring 
> binders.  I don't recall seeing them after the company closed 
 shop in 1993.

> -ethan

Bummer.  Thanks a ton for looking!  If anyone else has any leads, let me know...

Thanks again,
Josh

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[dwight]

> From: a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:14:44 +
> 
> > 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> > on and off.
> 
> I must be mis-remembering how I designed my first EPROM programmer. I 
> know I could do 2716s (single-rail, not the TI ones) and I thought I always 
> applied Vpp and pulsed another pin at TTL levels to program them
> 
> IIRC the 27128 was the last one to actually allow the 'dumb' 50ms
> programming algorithm. It may well work on larger chips, but 
> I never tried it.  That's why I designed my programmer to do
> 2716s, 2732s, 2764s and 27128s only. Not having another 
> programmer I couldn't use a microprocessor or microcontroller
> (no way to load the firmware) so I had to do it all in TTL logic. 
> Doing the 'intellegent' algorithm in TTL was a bit much ;-)
> 
> -tony

Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a single rail, just that it
didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was programmed by turning
Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s were that way as well.
The TI 2716s were not so friendly.
Intel sold half bad 2716s for 5 volt 2508s. Even after 2716s price dropped,
they still sold 2708s for $32 when you could buy a 2716 for $3 to $4.
Dwight

  

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[tony duell]

> 
> Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a single rail, just that it
> didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was programmed by turning
> Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s were that way as well.

The data sheet for the SGS-Thomson 2716 here : 

http://ee-classes.usc.edu/ee459/library/datasheets/2716.pdf

says that you apply Vpp and keep it applied, set up address and data (with G/, 
pin 20, more
commonly called output enable, high and E/P low) and then program each location 
by taking the E/P pin
(Pin 18, more commonly called chip enable) high for 50ms. 

That is what I remember doing. You didn't have to pulse Vpp.

-tony

Re: 21MX proms (per request

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "tony duell" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" 

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request




Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a 
single rail, just that it
didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was 
programmed by turning
Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s 
were that way as well.


The data sheet for the SGS-Thomson 2716 here :

http://ee-classes.usc.edu/ee459/library/datasheets/2716.pdf

says that you apply Vpp and keep it applied, set 
up address and data (with G/, pin 20, more
commonly called output enable, high and E/P low) 
and then program each location by taking the E/P 
pin
(Pin 18, more commonly called chip enable) high 
for 50ms.


That is what I remember doing. You didn't have to 
pulse Vpp.


-tony
=

- Reply -

Yup; I still have a 2716 programmer I cobbled 
together for my PET and it just has a manual DIP 
switch (and LED) to turn Vpp on/off.before and 
after programming. To be sure, there were 
different versions but none pulsed Vpp AFAIK.


m 

Re: Wyse 370

[Keven Miller (rtt)]

Not sure about 370, but I've found a WY-60 User Guide here:

http://www.vt100.net/wyse/wy-60-ug/

Keven Miller


- Original Message - 
From: Jan Diegelmann 
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 02:46 AM

Subject: Wyse 370


for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 
ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between 
sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:

they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards


Half a century ago, there were already some people who got it wrong.

I had a boss who insisted that blanks in the box were "PUNCH CARDS",
that it wasn't until they got used that they became "PUNCHED CARDS".
He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
with were "COLOUR PENCILS".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

punchcard svg file available

[simon]

Hi All,

just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A 
hollerith punchcard.


https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Al Kossow]

On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:

Hi All,

just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith punchcard.

https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

enjoy


they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Liam Proven]

On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
> with were "COLOUR PENCILS".

Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the
proper, old-fashioned-way. ;¬)


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
>> hollerith punchcard.
>> 
>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>> 
>> enjoy
> 
> they are PUNCHED cards
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Not unless you use the Dutch term and translate literally to English...

paul

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards


Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"

Second to last page:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT_1000_Brochure_May70.pdf
"punch card reading and handling"

3rd page in PDF:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contribLibrDoc_Vol1_Aug76.pdf
"Punch card equipment test"

Section 5.3:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_Description_Jan58.pdf
"On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"

Page 23-5:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_OperatorsGde_Dec87.pdf
"different punch card decoding conventions"

While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
aforementioned capitalized generalizations.

Kyle

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Simon Claessen]

Hi Lee.

Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)

I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite 
are two completely different things.


btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and 
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one 
box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in 
the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I 
made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type 
of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)


Simon from hack42.nl

On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:

punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon  wrote:


Hi All,

just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
punchcard.

https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl







--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[William Donzelli]

> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
> nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
> used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
> until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
> As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
> can be reproduced. :-)

If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

--
Will

RE: punchcard svg file available

[tony duell]

> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density? 
Impregnated with something? 

-tony

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 05:54:45PM +0200, Simon Claessen wrote:
>
> btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten
>

The correct term is of course "hålkort" (hole cards)

An unused stack went cheap on swedish ebay recently... perhaps I 
should have bought them.

/P

Re: DEC 8235 IC? (repost)

[Simon Claessen]

To answer my own question, DEC 82xx type IC's are actually Signetics 
N82xx IC's.



On 07-09-15 11:10, simon wrote:

As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it
here. please don't be offended by this.


-
Hi all.

is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's?

I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and plugged in
the ribbon cable connecting connector C and D the wrong way. some magic
smoke came loose and there are a few chips broken .

by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect
chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v...

The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but
other boards could well be affected.

---


--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Al Kossow]

On 9/10/15 8:54 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:

Being right and being polite are two completely different things.



And no one has ever accused me of being polite.

RE: punchcard svg file available

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William
> Donzelli
> Sent: 10 September 2015 17:00
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> > btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
> > are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and
> > one box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards
> > stay in the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
> made this file.
> > As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the
> > cards can be reproduced. :-)
> 
> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone know
> about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made again. It is a
> specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
> 
> --
> Will

I have been looking in the UK and getting near that thickness is hard. I havn't 
been able to get my reader working yet...

Dave
G4UGM

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Lee Courtney]

punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
> punchcard.
>
> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
>
> enjoy
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>



-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Re: punchcard svg file available

[simon]

A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters. the 
c cedille should actually be a cent char.


I fixed it.

Simon


On 10-09-15 17:54, Simon Claessen wrote:

Hi Lee.

Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)

I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite
are two completely different things.

btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one
box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in
the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type
of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)

Simon from hack42.nl

On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:

punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon  wrote:


Hi All,

just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith
punchcard.

https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl









--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 09:53 AM, simon wrote:

A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters.
the c cedille should actually be a cent char.


So, EBCDIC.  How about a few of the other character sets in use at the time?

That might be interesting.

--Chuck

Re: punchcard svg file available

[simon]

Go ahead. this drawing is published as creative commons and the svg is 
in parts.


the text and holes is a separate layer. I even included a layer with all 
holes, so just make the right holes white and there you are. The text 
above is another thing though. the characters are als separate drawings, 
but I foud out that the dots are not separate. oh well, not a big issue. 
Use the grid.



btw, I work in Inkscape. not the best program around, but it does the job.

Simon

On 10-09-15 20:01, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 09/10/2015 09:53 AM, simon wrote:

A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters.
the c cedille should actually be a cent char.


So, EBCDIC.  How about a few of the other character sets in use at the
time?

That might be interesting.

--Chuck



--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[simon]

Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as 
you would expect from the toughness.


On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:




If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.


What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?

-tony



--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

RE: punchcard svg file available

[Rich Alderson]

From: Al Kossow
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:53 AM

> On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:

>> https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg

> they are PUNCHED cards
> look at ALL of the documentation of the period
> NO ONE called them PUNCH cards

Al,

I have to disagree with you, based on 46 years of working with the damned
things.  Usage trumps prescriptivism in the form of documentation:  Even
the keypunch operators of my youth called them "punch cards".

Best regards,
Your friend
 Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Lee Courtney]

Al - we accept that you are a CLI in a world of GUIs! :-)

Lee C.

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> On 9/10/15 8:54 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:
>
>> Being right and being polite are two completely different things.
>>
>>
> And no one has ever accused me of being polite.
>
>
>
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?


On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you 
would expect from the toughness.


Also, had to have the right friction to slide through, but catch on the 
rollers.   CDC's optical card readers came later, and made dramatic 
improvements in DP.


In those days, the cardstock was extremely available, in large sheets and 
in precut blanks, in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded who would 
do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed them.



And yet, some card readers were amazingly tolerant!

For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch of projects, such as the 
National Driver's Test (1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software. 
They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards, which were 80 column cards 
with every other column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody could 
take a special stylus or a random pencil and create their own hanging 
chips/"Chads".  But, how to recollect them?  They actually had people 
stick a stamp on them and MAIL them! ("Business Reply Mail" would have 
shifted the franking burden, otherwise it would have made MUCH more sense) 
They then successfully ran them through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in 
mind that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE standing next to the 
reader, clearing jams in real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified 
the input maw?


So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it worked with a postage 
stamp stuck to it?


Although the hardware reliability was a welcome surprise (I wonder how my 
life would have gone if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live 
statistics weren't adding up close enough to 100%! On camera, Walter 
Cronkite was stalling, and right behind him, my father was frantically 
manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week later, there were a copy of 
McCracken FORTRAN and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee table.

Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we learned a little FORTRAN.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Sean Caron wrote:

I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.


It will go through the [almost] straight optional paper path of laser 
printers and inkjets.  (Not the S curves)

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Sean Caron]

I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:56 PM, simon  wrote:

> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you
> would expect from the toughness.
>
>
> On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>>>
>>
>> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
>> Impregnated with something?
>>
>> -tony
>>
>>
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>

Re: punchcard svg file available

[jwsmobile]

On 9/10/2015 9:00 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
can be reproduced. :-)

If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.

--
Will
General Credit Forms in St Louis had it and the patterns and my friend 
Al Weber had cards made when he worked there.  The problem with making 
more was the feasibility of setting their lines up to run the card, and 
at the time the paper was no problem (into the 90's).


I'll check with him and see if he knows of any problem getting the paper.

GCF makes the NCR snap forms for credit cards, and owns the patents to 
that technology.  So making the cards were not a problem for them as 
their line was nearly set up exactly for that already.


thanks
Jim

RE: punchcard svg file available

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
> Proven
> Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> > He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs with
> > were "COLOUR PENCILS".
> 
> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper, old-
> fashioned-way. ;¬)
> 

I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in English. It 
was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an attempt to 
"Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up" English and Webster

http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/05/america-drop-u-british-spellings/

who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today

> 
> --
> Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 08:40 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow 
wrote:


look at ALL of the documentation of the period NO ONE called them
PUNCH cards



Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"


One popular term for them was "IBM Cards".  Given the market penetration 
of Big Blue, back in the day, the term was probably pretty accurate.


--Chuck

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[dwight]

As often the case, I recall wrong.
I stand corrected.
Dwight

From: dkel...@hotmail.com
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700




Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
Dwight


  

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[dwight]

Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
Dwight


  

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[tony duell]

> As often the case, I recall wrong.
> I stand corrected.
> Dwight
> 
> From: dkel...@hotmail.com
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, looked it up.
> 2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
> Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
> Dwight

I am now totally confused. Do you believe the 2716 and 2732 require a Vpp pulse 
for each 
location or not? 

FWIW, I believe they do not (confirmed by the data sheets I have found on the 
web). You can
apply Vpp to get the thing into program mode and then apply a TTL-level 50ms 
pulse to 
program a location. 

-tony

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin  wrote:

He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
with were "COLOUR PENCILS".


On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Liam Proven wrote:

Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the
proper, old-fashioned-way. ;¬)


Yes, GREY might be your FAVOURITE COLOUR.

BUT, notice though, that he said COLOUR pencils, not COLOURED pencils,
which is why I included that along with his choice of PUNCH V PUNCHED.

He was a British physicist at Goddard Space Flight Center,
studying the Van Allen radiaton belts.
We were "on-site contractors".


Which prompts me to wonder how much of this issue that we are
getting a double serving of (Deja Vu?) is related to regional
or community variations.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Control Data (?) circuit boards

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Sep-10, at 10:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 9/10/15 9:23 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> Not very interesting
>> 
> 
> backside is all-telling.
> DD12092 is the part number. DD == "Data Display"
> the display division of CDC
> 
> they are the form factor that DD used. I picked up a 3291-B display
> controller manual from Billy Pettit yesteray, and is uses discrete
> cards in the same shape.
> 
> cans are Fairchild, circa 72/73

There are two chips there with dates codes 6816.

I suspect the date codes of the form e.g. 710, 728 would be 6710, 6728. At 
least in the past when I've seen 3-digit dates codes they've tended to 
correlate with dropping the decade-year digit.

Re: punchcard svg file available

[geneb]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:


On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:


look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards



Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefMan_Jul64.pdf
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"

Second to last page:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT_1000_Brochure_May70.pdf
"punch card reading and handling"

3rd page in PDF:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contribLibrDoc_Vol1_Aug76.pdf
"Punch card equipment test"

Section 5.3:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_Description_Jan58.pdf
"On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"

Page 23-5:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_OperatorsGde_Dec87.pdf
"different punch card decoding conventions"

While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
aforementioned capitalized generalizations.



So THAT's what a "petard" looks like!

:D

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Mike Stein]

For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out 
with prepunched cards containing the customer and 
billing information, to be mailed back with your 
payment for proper allocation.


m

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Cisin" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" 


Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available


If you find a source of paper stock that 
works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and 
will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is 
extremely difficult to make.
What is different about it? Thickness? 
Weight/square metre? Density?

Impregnated with something?


On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and 
bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect 
from the toughness.


Also, had to have the right friction to slide 
through, but catch on the rollers.   CDC's 
optical card readers came later, and made 
dramatic improvements in DP.


In those days, the cardstock was extremely 
available, in large sheets and in precut blanks, 
in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded 
who would do custom cards, if your business 
thought that it needed them.



And yet, some card readers were amazingly 
tolerant!


For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch 
of projects, such as the National Driver's Test 
(1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software. 
They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards, 
which were 80 column cards with every other 
column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody 
could take a special stylus or a random pencil 
and create their own hanging chips/"Chads". 
But, how to recollect them?  They actually had 
people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them! 
("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the 
franking burden, otherwise it would have made 
MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them 
through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in mind 
that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE 
standing next to the reader, clearing jams in 
real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified 
the input maw?


So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it 
worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?


Although the hardware reliability was a welcome 
surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone 
if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live 
statistics weren't adding up close enough to 
100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling, 
and right behind him, my father was frantically 
manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week 
later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN 
and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee 
table.
Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we 
learned a little FORTRAN.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com 

RE: punchcard svg file available

[tony duell]

> It will go through the [almost] straight optional paper path of laser
> printers and inkjets.  (Not the S curves)

I'll bet it will go through a Sanders 12/7 dot matrix printer too. That has a 
totallly
straight paper path. Paper in at the top, out at the bottom (strangely...)

However, none of the messages have explained why Will said it is 
'extremely difficult to make'. That to me suggests something special
about the card stock.

-tony

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Sean Caron  wrote:
> 
> I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
> stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
> but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
> cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
> running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
> applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
> cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.

Wikipedia mentions the thickness spec: 0.007 inches (180 µm) thick.  And it 
refers to ANSI and ISO standards that specify the card in more detail, but of 
course those are the kind of unfriendly standards that you have to pay for.

Card stock exists in a large number of varieties.  It may be perfectly 
straightforward if you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that supplies 
paper to print shops).  For example, with a quick look at Mohawk Paper company 
I see a dozen different papers.  Picking one of them ("Options") shows a very 
smooth paper in 13 different thickness specs from .0036 to .0185 inches -- and 
.0069 is one of the choices listed.

paul

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:



In those days, the cardstock was extremely available, in large sheets
 and in precut blanks, in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded
who would do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed
them.


To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our 
vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.


I have no specifics on that, however.

Does anyone still use aperture cards or time cards?  Could be another 
source of stock.


--Chuck

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards 
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with your 
payment for proper allocation.


A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills, 
and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.

(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)

RE: punchcard svg file available

[Dave G4UGM]

Where I first worked we punched duplicate cards, one which went out with the
bill and one which we kept in a box. When the money came in we used the
duplicate from the box to produce daily listings which were reconciled
against the bank statements. Then after a month we could produce reminder
letters from the remaining cards...

Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Stein
> Sent: 10 September 2015 19:58
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your
> payment for proper allocation.
> 
> m
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Fred Cisin" 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
> 
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
> 
> 
>  If you find a source of paper stock that
>  works, please let everyone
>  know about it. The real paper is gone, and
>  will likely never be made
>  again. It is a specialized stock that is
>  extremely difficult to make.
> >>> What is different about it? Thickness?
> >>> Weight/square metre? Density?
> >>> Impregnated with something?
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
> >> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and
> >> bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect
> >> from the toughness.
> >
> > Also, had to have the right friction to slide
> > through, but catch on the rollers.   CDC's
> > optical card readers came later, and made
> > dramatic improvements in DP.
> >
> > In those days, the cardstock was extremely
> > available, in large sheets and in precut blanks,
> > in a variety of colors.  Print-shops abounded
> > who would do custom cards, if your business
> > thought that it needed them.
> >
> >
> > And yet, some card readers were amazingly
> > tolerant!
> >
> > For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch
> > of projects, such as the National Driver's Test
> > (1966).  IBM provided the hardware and software.
> > They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards,
> > which were 80 column cards with every other
> > column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody
> > could take a special stylus or a random pencil
> > and create their own hanging chips/"Chads".
> > But, how to recollect them?  They actually had
> > people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them!
> > ("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the
> > franking burden, otherwise it would have made
> > MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them
> > through the card reader of a 360!  Keep in mind
> > that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE
> > standing next to the reader, clearing jams in
> > real-time.  I wonder if IBM cheated and modified
> > the input maw?
> >
> > So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it
> > worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?
> >
> > Although the hardware reliability was a welcome
> > surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone
> > if it hadn't), the software wasn't.  The live
> > statistics weren't adding up close enough to
> > 100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling,
> > and right behind him, my father was frantically
> > manually adding the numbers.  Starting a week
> > later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN
> > and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee
> > table.
> > Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we
> > learned a little FORTRAN.
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: punchcard svg file available

[William Donzelli]

> Card stock exists in a large number of varieties.  It may be perfectly 
> straightforward if you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that 
> supplies paper to print shops).  For example, with a quick look at Mohawk 
> Paper company I see a dozen different papers.  Picking one of them 
> ("Options") shows a very smooth paper in 13 different thickness specs from 
> .0036 to .0185 inches -- and .0069 is one of the choices listed.

There is much more to it than just thickness.

When I was cleaning out Cardamation and talking to the owners, they
talked about the problems they had when the last mill shut down
punched card stock, and the best solution they came up with just did
not work well. The stock is very much a specialty item, due to its
strict specifications. The mills treated is so special that the
workers making the stuff were paid by how much usable stock they
produced, much to the dislike of the unions. Because of this, the
mills and unions basically said that no amount of money would restart
the lines.

--
Will

Re: punchcard svg file available

[geneb]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:


On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards 
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with 
your payment for proper allocation.


A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills, and 
before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.

(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)


This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone 
mental on us Jay?


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, geneb wrote:
This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone 
mental on us Jay?


Some of the messages might be worth getting more than once.  Not that one.

I think that I got EVERY message twice.  Is this still CCTECH/CCTALK 
issues?

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Sep-10, at 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, geneb wrote:
>> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone 
>> mental on us Jay?
> 
> Some of the messages might be worth getting more than once.  Not that one.
> 
> I think that I got EVERY message twice.  Is this still CCTECH/CCTALK issues?

I've had duplicates coming in bunches at some point in the day for awhile.
The duplicates tend to be addressed to cctech, although I can't categorically 
say that they all are.

RE: 21MX proms (per request

[dwight]

I was mistaken.
I've admitted it.
Dwight


> From: a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:15:42 +
> 
> > As often the case, I recall wrong.
> > I stand corrected.
> > Dwight
> > 
> > From: dkel...@hotmail.com
> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yep, looked it up.
> > 2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
> > Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
> > Dwight
> 
> I am now totally confused. Do you believe the 2716 and 2732 require a Vpp 
> pulse for each 
> location or not? 
> 
> FWIW, I believe they do not (confirmed by the data sheets I have found on the 
> web). You can
> apply Vpp to get the thing into program mode and then apply a TTL-level 50ms 
> pulse to 
> program a location. 
> 
> -tony
  

Re: IBM 026

[Ian S. King]

Are you looking for one to buy, to use, to study for restoration...?  I
know some folks who have them, but they're not for sale.  :-)

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM,  wrote:

> wow... that is absurd! $24,999
> someone needs rehab...
>
>
> In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> hilp...@cs.ubc.ca writes:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI
> ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: IBM 026

[COURYHOUSE]

well  SMECC  needs one  hopefully to make  work   so we can show  the 
youn'ins  how  cards were punched!
hopefully  something  to be  gotten here in AZbut  I am open
 
Thanks   Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2015 5:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
isk...@uw.edu writes:

Are you  looking for one to buy, to use, to study for restoration...?  I
know  some folks who have them, but they're not for sale.  :-)

On Tue,  Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM,  wrote:

> wow...  that is absurd! $24,999
> someone needs rehab...
>
>
>  In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>  hilp...@cs.ubc.ca writes:
>
>
>  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI
>  ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14
>



--  
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School  
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered:  Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design  Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal  
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab  

University of Washington

There is an  old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to  China."

Amiga 2000HD spotted, STL

[Jay West]

Local electronics haunt has an Amiga 2000HD on the shelf.  I was in a rush
so didn't get any particulars. It did not appear to have a monitor or
keyboard. Didn't see a price tag, but just from past experience I'd guess
the owner tagged it around $50.

 

I'm not in to them, no interest.. But if someone is interested I'd be happy
to look further, ship, etc.

 

J

internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

Hello, all,

I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his 
personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government 
censorship or a private war between iinet and US content 
providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at 
least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home 
(totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages 
at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be 
accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world is 
being affected.


Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to 
host the affected files to get around this problem.


So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in 
the US, to check if they can view this page:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.

Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether 
it works or DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how 
much of the US is being blocked.  Also, let me know where 
you are.  I am assuming this is only a problem in the US, 
but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make 
email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO 
being blocked.


If you want to do some more research, just Google 
members.iinet and you will see a lot of hits of the form:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name

and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home 
and work IP, I can not get ANY of these pages to respond.


If you want to see my page, it is :
http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html

Thanks for any help or info you can offer!

Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Alexis Kotlowy]

On 11/09/2015 11:02 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> Hello, all,
> 
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really 
> weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the 
> ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au 
> as his ISP.

iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
understanding).

I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
wouldn't be surprised.

Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
my previous ISP.

Cheers,

Alexis.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[ben]

On 9/10/2015 7:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

Hello, all,

I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem
has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in
Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web
ring link to his personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to
government censorship or a private war between iinet and US content
providers, iinet or Australia are blocking access from at least some
sites in the US.  So, from my work or home (totally different IPs) I
cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet, but a few general help pages
there can be accessed.  As far as I can tell, nobody else in the world
is being affected.


Well it does not work in CANADA as of today.
It was working about a month ago, as I am designing a 8 bit cpu
on the DE1 FPGA PCB, and I was looking for ideas.
Can one get all the web pages mirrored, I hate this loss information
with the net.
Ben.
PS. Your site is fine, The Down Under sites are well DOWN and under.
Thinking about it the PDP 11 was strange beast, as having both character
and floating point data, even with split I&D you had way too small of 
memory.A simple 32 bit machine could have been a better option. Mind you 
the 11 was designed before 4K dram hit the market.
I have a nice 32 bit design but I want to get this 8 bit cpu working 
first. Any one knows what modern C compiler will compile Tiny C version 
1.0? Man with a CPU and no software.

Re: Amiga 2000HD spotted, STL

[jwsmobile]

I talked to the guy at the counter, and meant to post this too.  He gets 
a lot of Amiga hardware and would be worth polling if you are 
interested.  I suspect that the prices will go up if a bunch of Amiga 
people pounce though, and they can use the bucks there.  (ask Jay for 
the contact)


Lots of NTSC studio quality video pulls as well, worth the visit if you 
are near STL and want to have very high quality NTSC video switching and 
other equipment.  Looks like some local studios probably just recent.y 
digitized since there is nearly a full setup there right now.  Leich and 
Grass Valley spotted for example.


Sad thing was there was an IBM 5100 at the other local junk location 
there and it was gone when my friend and I went there (after lunch with 
Jay, by the way thanks again for meeting up and buying lunch, Jay).


I spotted a Boeing store on Lindbergh on the way to the hotel, too late 
to visit.  Anyone culled thru there for what they have?  The one in 
Seattle was always a must visit in Kent when I was visiting there for 
work.  Daily visits are warranted.  Sadly it is shut down.


thanks
Jim


On 9/10/2015 6:02 PM, Jay West wrote:

Local electronics haunt has an Amiga 2000HD on the shelf.  I was in a rush
so didn't get any particulars. It did not appear to have a monitor or
keyboard. Didn't see a price tag, but just from past experience I'd guess
the owner tagged it around $50.

  


I'm not in to them, no interest.. But if someone is interested I'd be happy
to look further, ship, etc.

  


J

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 06:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

Hello, all,

I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird
problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David
Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All
members of the web ring link to his personal web pages at iinet.
Apparently, due to government censorship or a private war between
iinet and US content providers, iinet or Australia are blocking
access from at least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or home
(totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet,
but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far as I can
tell, nobody else in the world is being affected.


Works from western US just fine.

Have you considered using a proxy server?  Some may frown on it, but 
that's how I've had to access some blocked sites, such as the Olympics 
reporting on the Beeb. (Just find a UK anonymous proxy and you're good).


There are lists of proxies on the net that are continuously updated.

FWIW,
Chuck

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[jwsmobile]

I am forwarding this to a friend in Australia for him to do more 
extensive comment and diagnosis.


Try http://traceroute.org/ for diagnosing this.  It allows you to 
perform traceroute from cooperating servers across the world, including 
australia.


there are some sites you will have to ferret out to allow you to bypass 
country IP blocking.


And yet australia is one of the more stupid countries (exceeded only by 
Germany and the EU) about censorship, and fouling up the works.


Yes the page timed out on me.  I'll see if I can find the router that 
did it and post an update.


thanks
Jim

On 9/10/2015 7:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:

On 11/09/2015 11:02 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

Hello, all,

I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really
weird problem has turned up.  The guy who administers the
ring, David Brooks, is in Australia, and uses iinet.net.au
as his ISP.

iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
understanding).

I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
wouldn't be surprised.

Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
my previous ISP.

Cheers,

Alexis.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[ben]

On 9/10/2015 9:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote:

I am forwarding this to a friend in Australia for him to do more
extensive comment and diagnosis.

Try http://traceroute.org/ for diagnosing this.  It allows you to
perform traceroute from cooperating servers across the world, including
australia.

there are some sites you will have to ferret out to allow you to bypass
country IP blocking.

And yet australia is one of the more stupid countries (exceeded only by
Germany and the EU) about censorship, and fouling up the works.

Yes the page timed out on me.  I'll see if I can find the router that
did it and post an update.

thanks
Jim


What I find more annoying, is this cloud crap.
The web site is down, click here to try a update.
YOU TURKEYS! THAT IS WHY ARE CACHE-ING THE STUFF.
Ben.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 10 September 2015 at 22:07, Alexis Kotlowy
 wrote:
> iiNet have been outspoken about users' rights and privacy in the face of
> the War on Piracy. While they don't condone piracy, they have serious
> concerns about the way it's being dealt with (or at least that's my
> understanding).
>
> I get the impression some ISP's are blocking access to iiNet. I don't
> see how this could do anything other than hurt the end users, but that
> seems to be the tactic the content owners have taken in the past so I
> wouldn't be surprised.
>
It'll only get worse if the TPP goes through…


> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case DNS is blocked,
> the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been on iiNet since they bought out
> my previous ISP.
>
Doing a traceroute from my home, which is serviced by TekSavvy (in
Canada); my connection to members.iinet.net.au dies at a router owned
by Hurricane Electric, Inc. of California. Since it seems to bounce
through a few of their routers, I'm assuming that whoever Hurricane
Electric hands off the packets to kills it. (Based on my traceroute;
other results may vary.)

>From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before
dying).


Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Mike Ross]

I've forwarded this to a journo at The Register, and hopefully they'll
have a good poke at it.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem has
> turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in Australia,
> and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web ring link to his
> personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government censorship or a
> private war between iinet and US content providers, iinet or Australia are
> blocking access from at least some sites in the US.  So, from my work or
> home (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal pages at iinet,
> but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far as I can tell,
> nobody else in the world is being affected.
>
> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to host the affected
> files to get around this problem.
>
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to check
> if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
>
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether it works or
> DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how much of the US is being
> blocked.  Also, let me know where you are.  I am assuming this is only a
> problem in the US, but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO being blocked.
>
> If you want to do some more research, just Google members.iinet and you will
> see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home and work IP, I can
> not get ANY of these pages to respond.
>
> If you want to see my page, it is :
> http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html
>
> Thanks for any help or info you can offer!
>
> Jon
>
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case 
DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been 
on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers, 
Alexis. 
Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't 
figure out from the man page how to increase it.


Not a DNS problem.

Thanks,

Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 09:54 PM, ben wrote:


Well it does not work in CANADA as of today.

WOW, this is new info!
It was working about a month ago, as I am designing a 8 
bit cpu

on the DE1 FPGA PCB, and I was looking for ideas.
Can one get all the web pages mirrored, I hate this loss 
information

with the net.
Ben.
PS. Your site is fine, The Down Under sites are well DOWN 
and under.
My page works now because I have removed the links to the 
iinet files and gotten a local copy of the .js file.
Thinking about it the PDP 11 was strange beast, as having 
both character
and floating point data, even with split I&D you had way 
too small of memory.A simple 32 bit machine could have 
been a better option. Mind you the 11 was designed before 
4K dram hit the market.
I have a nice 32 bit design but I want to get this 8 bit 
cpu working first. Any one knows what modern C compiler 
will compile Tiny C version 1.0? Man with a CPU and no 
software.


I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but 
the limited memory was a big killer.  The 11 was designed 
when CORE was still king!  We had several PDP-11's with core 
in them at first.


I played around with Tiny C a bit, a LONG time ago.  I guess 
I ran it on a MicroSoft C compiler.


Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Alexis Kotlowy]

On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
>> Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case 
>> DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been 
>> on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers, 
>> Alexis. 
> Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't 
> figure out from the man page how to increase it.
> 
> Not a DNS problem.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jon
> 

I'm poking around with this service:
http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass

Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
stops as it goes to leave California.

Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?

Alexis.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Brian L. Stuart]

On Thu, 9/10/15, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove  wrote:
> From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
> of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
> network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before dying).

I'm seeing the same behavior from Verizon-provided service.

BLS

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Alexis Kotlowy]

> On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> I'm poking around with this service:
> http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass
> 
> Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
> through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
> stops as it goes to leave California.
> 
> Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?
> 
> Alexis.
> 

Also, I'm talking to a network-oriented friend in Canada who reckons
it's iiNet who are blocking packets. I'd like to know why!

Alexis.

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Gary Oliver]

Same behaviour from comcast.com in Oregon (a cablemodem connection) as 
well as from peakinternet.com (local isp.)  Also have tried using one of 
my AWS (amazon) virtuals and get the similar results.


comcast.com traceroute stops at:
be2017.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.0.237)

my amazon instance stops at:
be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.88.10)

peakinternet.com stops at:
100ge11-1.core1.lax2.he.net (72.52.92.122)

FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been trying to get to 
look at current crop of home builts and could not find a way to the web 
ring.  iinet.net.au is reachable but not members.iinet.net.au


The amazon instance is in the US West region (north-central Oregon I 
presume.)


Tomorrow I'll fire up a proxy on the east coast and see what happens.

-Gary


On 09/10/2015 08:49 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote:

On Thu, 9/10/15, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove  wrote:

 From a friend of mine on RoadRunner (I won't say where, but in the USA
of course); their trace dies as it leaves the Cogent Communications
network (since it bounces through a few of their servers before dying).

I'm seeing the same behavior from Verizon-provided service.

BLS

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 10:38 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:

On 11/09/2015 12:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 09/10/2015 09:07 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:

Can you do a traceroute to members.iinet.net.au? In case
DNS is blocked, the IP address is 203.0.178.90. I've been
on iiNet since they bought out my previous ISP. Cheers,
Alexis.

Traceroute goes out to 30 hops and stops, and I couldn't
figure out from the man page how to increase it.

Not a DNS problem.

Thanks,

Jon


I'm poking around with this service:
http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass

Probing telstra.com (a major Australian telecommunications company) gets
through, and even iinet.net.au gets through, but members.iinet.net.au
stops as it goes to leave California.

Are you able to reach iinet.net.au?


Yes.  Actually, it seems that MEMBERS.iinet.net.au is what 
is being blocked, although I seem to not be able to email 
David Brooks through his iinet email address, either.  But, 
the iinet main page does work for me.


A number of other people seem to indicate if their routing 
takes them through cogent that it fails, so this may be the 
key node that is blocking iinet.


Jon
Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Chuck Guzis]

Oh, BTW, here's the traceroute for my (successful) access.  Oregon, 
again, but through Centurylink DSL:


traceroute to 203.0.178.90 (203.0.178.90), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  10.0.0.252 (10.0.0.252)  0.451 ms  0.392 ms  0.364 ms
 2  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  5.304 ms  10.255 ms  14.160 ms
 3  67.42.192.200 (67.42.192.200)  57.234 ms  60.042 ms  62.991 ms
 4  eugn-agw1.inet.qwest.net (67.42.193.57)  63.939 ms  64.865 ms 
65.806 ms
 5  sea-brdr-02.inet.qwest.net (67.14.41.18)  81.767 ms  83.713 ms 
73.671 ms
 6  ae1.sea23.ip4.gtt.net (199.229.230.213)  113.670 ms  69.684 ms 
70.529 ms
 7  et-3-3-0.lax22.ip4.gtt.net (89.149.128.81)  95.460 ms  84.431 ms 
94.272 ms

 8  * * *
 9  * * *
10  * * *
11  * * *
12  * * *
13  ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net (150.101.33.10)  289.884 ms  289.696 ms 
289.659 ms
14  ae5.cr1.adl6.on.ii.net (150.101.37.237)  289.656 ms  289.761 ms 
289.644 ms
15  ae0.cr1.adl2.on.ii.net (150.101.33.2)  289.679 ms  289.713 ms 
289.874 ms
16  aex.cr1.per1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.19)  289.754 ms  290.740 ms 
349.686 ms
17  ae0.cr1.per4.on.ii.net (150.101.34.170)  330.610 ms  288.678 ms 
289.842 ms
18  po6-10.per-qv1-bdr1.on.ii.net (150.101.33.91)  289.816 ms  289.791 
ms  277.701 ms
19  te1-0-1-113.per-qv1-bdr2.on.ii.net (203.215.4.41)  279.471 ms 
282.395 ms  283.352 ms
20  gi5-2.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.8)  284.290 ms 
gi3-5.icp-qv1-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.4)  285.234 ms 
gi5-2.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.8)  288.152 ms

21  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  291.103 ms  292.040 ms  292.977 ms
22  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  293.899 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  294.856 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  295.797 ms
23  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  297.746 ms  301.692 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  302.626 ms
24  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  279.594 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  281.623 ms  284.800 ms

25  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  286.828 ms  287.148 ms  287.120 ms
26  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  288.223 ms 
289.297 ms members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  289.818 ms
27  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  289.838 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  289.251 ms  292.341 ms
28  vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  289.256 ms 
members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  293.338 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  290.765 ms
29  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  290.218 ms  314.638 ms 
vl311.icp-osb-core1.iinet.net.au (203.215.4.185)  311.164 ms

30  members.iinet.net.au (203.0.178.90)  307.669 ms  304.158 ms  309.702 ms

Don't know if this helps or not.  Odd that Comcast isn't allowing things 
through.


--Chuck

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 11:10 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote:
Also, I'm talking to a network-oriented friend in Canada 
who reckons it's iiNet who are blocking packets. I'd like 
to know why! Alexis. 
iinet has posted several blogs and position papers decrying 
poorly thought out responses to intellectual property 
piracy, and draconian laws that apparently were enacted in 
Australia in June.  They are apparently engaged in a war of 
words (and maybe more things they are not talking about) 
with the MPAA and other IP representatives.


I suppose if iinet is worried about being sued for their 
user's making pirated content available for download, then 
blocking people outside .AU from seeing member's web pages 
might be a rational way to stop US groups from detecting the 
pirated content.


OR, maybe some groups in the US have convinced some ISPs in 
the US to block certain .AU web sites.


Ah ha!  I see that iinet.net.au and members.iinet.net.au 
resolve to DIFFERENT IP addresses.
(Neither of these respond to pings, but that is not that 
unusual, lots of facilities don't allow pinging from outside.)


Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 11:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:


FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been 
trying to get to look at current crop of home builts and 
could not find a way to the web ring.  iinet.net.au is 
reachable but not members.iinet.net.au


Yup, that is right, this all worked a couple months ago, for 
certain.  I can't remember the last time it did work, but it 
wasn't all that long ago.  The members.iinet resolves to a 
different IP address.


Jon

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Jon Elson]

On 09/10/2015 11:11 PM, Gary Oliver wrote:


FWIW I noticed this started several weeks ago - been 
trying to get to look at current crop of home builts and 
could not find a way to the web ring.
Here's the latest list out of the javascript file that one 
of the ring members in Germany got me a copy from Dave 
Brooks' site.


sites[index++] = "http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.homebrewcpu.com/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.aholme.co.uk/Mk1/Architecture.htm";
sites[index++] = "http://www.timefracture.org/D16.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/";
sites[index++] = "http://cpuville.com/index.htm";
sites[index++] = "http://www.mycpu.eu";
sites[index++] = "http://www.galacticelectronics.com/Simple4BitCPU.HTML";
sites[index++] = "http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/index.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hjs22/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.wellytop.com/Fnagaton/DIYComputer.html";
sites[index++] = 
"http://www.schlaefendorf.de/relaisrechner/dokumentation/index.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.nablaman.com/relay/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/adeptpage/menu.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.bigbit.com/bigbit/BIGBITComputer.htm";
sites[index++] = "http://www.praxibetel.org/toro/toro.html";
sites[index++] = "http://alessiolombardo.altervista.org/ttlcomputer/index.htm";
sites[index++] = "http://www.pilawa.org/computer/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.bigmessowires.com/bmow1/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/CS428/WireWrap.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tim-8.htm";
//sites[index++] = "http://neazoi.com/transistorizedcpu/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.ttlcpu.com/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.northdownfarm.co.uk/rory/tim/tinytim.htm";
sites[index++] = "http://www.ostracodfiles.com/elitepage/menu.html";
sites[index++] = "http://other-1.webs.com/";
sites[index++] = "http://isquared.weebly.com/index.html";
//sites[index++] = "http://penny.bplaced.net/www/index.php?id=8-bit-ttl-cpu";
sites[index++] = "http://relaysbc.sourceforge.net/";
sites[index++] = "http://canyouseethestars.com/project-the-kino-74/";
sites[index++] = "http://digitarworld.uw.hu/ttlcpu.html";
sites[index++] = 
"http://www.clivemaxfield.com/diycalculator/popup-m-hrrgcomp.shtml";
sites[index++] = "http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.megaprocessor.com/homebrew.html";
sites[index++] = "http://www.relaiscomputer.nl/";
sites[index++] = "http://www.lovqvist.net/";
// sites[index++] = "http://k1.dyndns.org/Develop/Hardware/K1-Computer/";
// sites[index++] = "http://www.armandoacosta.com/cpu/index.php";
// sites[index++] = "http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/iWeb/adeptpage/menu.html";
// sites[index++] = "http://tripu.triphoenix.de/Main_Page";
// sites[index++] = "http://wiesi.dyndns.org/4bit/index.html";
// sites[index++] = "http://marc.cleave.me.uk/cpu/index.htm";

RE: internet blocking problem ?

[tony duell]

> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in
> the US, to check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html

I have just viewed it (UK, Demon ISP). I've also checked, I can 
download at least one of the schematics linked from that page
(I have not checked it makes electronic sense ;-))

-tony

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:


Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of
Bush's first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader
from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
fiaso.



Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively.  There were no polling 
places for the 2000 Presidential election.  Before that, we were a 
conventional come to a polling place and use a small punch tool state. 
Never saw a voting machine.  The current mail system (well, you can turn 
in a ballot at several places in most cities; mail needn't be used) uses 
mark-sense cards.  Unlike the old mark-sense cards, you're instructed to 
fill the space in with black ink, not pencil.


But cards are the operative system currently.

Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers". 
Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying 
identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What 
shocked me was the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and 
a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered 
all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled 
the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall 
correct it if necessary.   Positioning to the appropriate field was done 
via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere 
to be seen.


All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10 
minutes for each customer.


Unbelievable.

--Chuck

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Chuck Guzis]

On 09/10/2015 03:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:

It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does.
Watch somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form.
Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.


yes. Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be
entered, to provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject
only to changes?


That was the nub of my observation.  Absolutely *NO* previous 
information was displayed on the terminal screen.  The clerk had to 
enter what amounts to the information already in the database manually.


Insane.  The clerk that serviced me entered my SSN wrong three times in 
a row.


--Chuck

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Jay Jaeger]

On 9/10/2015 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers".
> Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying
> identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What
> shocked me was the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and
> a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered
> all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled
> the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall
> correct it if necessary.   Positioning to the appropriate field was done
> via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere
> to be seen.
> 

The states really don't have a whole lot of choice.  It's called legal
presence.  Has more to do with immigration than 9/11/2001.  The law that
resulted from the latter is called RealID, but there are still legal
challenges, and implementation for ordinary folks (e.g., for boarding
airplanes) has been been put off until at least 2016.

http://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs

Wisconsin has a new system as well, including the ability to scan
paperwork, capable of complying with the stringent RealID law, if it
ever actually becomes effective.  But WI can at least start by reading
the 2-D barcode on the back of the expiring/expired license.  ;)

JRJ

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Jay Jaeger]

On 9/10/2015 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
> 
> To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our
> vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.
> 

Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of Bush's
first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader from Texas
a few years back that was retired as a result of that fiaso.

JRJ

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Joseph Lang]

It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch 
somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually 
slows down data entry a lot.

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
>> On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>> 
>> Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed)  ;) cards from son of
>> Bush's first election.  I got an operational Documation card reader
>> from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
>> fiaso.
> 
> 
> Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively.  There were no polling places for 
> the 2000 Presidential election.  Before that, we were a conventional come to 
> a polling place and use a small punch tool state. Never saw a voting machine. 
>  The current mail system (well, you can turn in a ballot at several places in 
> most cities; mail needn't be used) uses mark-sense cards.  Unlike the old 
> mark-sense cards, you're instructed to fill the space in with black ink, not 
> pencil.
> 
> But cards are the operative system currently.
> 
> Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers". Since 
> the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying identity 
> to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why).  What shocked me was 
> the process.  Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and a paper form filled 
> out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered all the information on a 
> simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled the terminal to the customer to 
> verify the information and manuall correct it if necessary.   Positioning to 
> the appropriate field was done via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad 
> or touchscreen anywhere to be seen.
> 
> All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10 minutes 
> for each customer.
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Marc Howard]

Question:  Is there a way to edit the SVG file to produce a custom message?

Thanks,

Marc

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, geneb  wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
>>
>>> For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
>>> containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
>>> your payment for proper allocation.
>>>
>>
>> A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
>> and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
>> (NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
>>
>
> This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today.  Mailman gone
> mental on us Jay?
>
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Joseph Lang]

The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB 
airline tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 12:56 PM, simon  wrote:
> 
> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you 
> would expect from the toughness.
> 
>> On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
>> 
>> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
>> Impregnated with something?
>> 
>> -tony
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
> 
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch 
somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse 
actually slows down data entry a lot.


yes.
Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to 
provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Joseph Lang]

Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless project managers. 
Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.

Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required "proof" 
included a photo 

Joe

> On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
>> It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch 
>> somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually 
>> slows down data entry a lot.
> 
> yes.
> Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to 
> provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same 
stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.

The die to cut to size May cost a bit


Conventional paper shear for sides, ends, and corner, plus conventional 
corner rounding on three corners.  Any competent bindery.

Die would be handy if making large quantities.

Re: punchcard svg file available

[William Donzelli]

> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB 
> airline tickets are printed on.
> The die to cut to size May cost a bit

No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
printability, punchability, etc..

--
Will

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Joseph Lang]

I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked for all the reasons you 
listed. They make lots of it.

Joe

On Sep 10, 2015, at 7:41 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:

>> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff 
>> ATB airline tickets are printed on.
>> The die to cut to size May cost a bit
> 
> No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
> consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
> printability, punchability, etc..
> 
> --
> Will

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Jay Jaeger]

On 9/10/2015 6:02 PM, Joseph Lang wrote:
> Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless project managers. 
> Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.
> 
> Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required 
> "proof" included a photo 
> 
> Joe
> 

That is the difference between legal presence and RealID.  The idea
between legal presence is that states are required to verify that you
are not an illegal immigrant.  Hence, no photo was involved.

Yes, RealID was ill-conceived.  (So was legal presence, for that matter).


JRJ

Re: punchcard svg file available

[Cory Heisterkamp]

Supposedly these guys have the IBM dies and as of last year, were still 
making/selling new tab cards. The CHM was investigating them as a source at one 
point but I believe they now have more cards than they'll ever need. -C

http://www.californiatabcard.com/Tab_Cards.html


On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote:

>> The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff 
>> ATB airline tickets are printed on.
>> The die to cut to size May cost a bit
> 
> Also, cutting to size should not be a problem. Any modern print shop
> should have a nice big computer controlled paper cutter that would do
> a fine job.
> 
> --
> Will

Re: punchcard svg file available

[William Donzelli]

> I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked for all the reasons you 
> listed. They make lots of it.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not think that is true
anymore. I think the stock spec changed in the 1980s when the magnetic
strip was added (which might be enough to screw up old card handling
anyway). The IATA says that no more stock is being issued (and that
news is from 2008!).

--
Will

Re: internet blocking problem ?

[Sean Caron]

It didn't work for me ... just hangs infinitely at "Waiting for
members.iinet.net.au..." ... feels like packets just being dropped
outright. I am on Comast Business, SE MI, USA my packets seem to get as
far as Cogent in LA but then from there, nothing.

Incidentally, it seems to work okay from the University of Michigan, A2 MI,
on a Merit -> GTT -> IINet route.

Best,

Sean


On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Hello, all,
>
> I am a member of the Homebuilt CPU web-ring, and a really weird problem
> has turned up.  The guy who administers the ring, David Brooks, is in
> Australia, and uses iinet.net.au as his ISP.  All members of the web ring
> link to his personal web pages at iinet. Apparently, due to government
> censorship or a private war between iinet and US content providers, iinet
> or Australia are blocking access from at least some sites in the US.  So,
> from my work or home (totally different IPs) I cannot access ANY personal
> pages at iinet, but a few general help pages there can be accessed.  As far
> as I can tell, nobody else in the world is being affected.
>
> Some webring members are now using classiccmp mirrors to host the affected
> files to get around this problem.
>
> So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in the US, to
> check if they can view this page:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html
>
> This is David Brooks' homebuilt 16-bit CPU.
>
> Please send me the results of your test, no matter whether it works or
> DOESN'T work, I am looking for statistics on how much of the US is being
> blocked.  Also, let me know where you are.  I am assuming this is only a
> problem in the US, but that is not guaranteed.  I also am not able to make
> email contact with David Brooks, so it seems email is ALSO being blocked.
>
> If you want to do some more research, just Google members.iinet and you
> will see a lot of hits of the form:
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name
>
> and see if you can access ANY of them.  From both my home and work IP, I
> can not get ANY of these pages to respond.
>
> If you want to see my page, it is :
> http://pico-systems.com/ring/ring.html
>
> Thanks for any help or info you can offer!
>
> Jon
>
>
>